View Full Version : NRA press conference?
secondstoryguy
12-19-2012, 12:09 AM
http://home.nra.org/pdf/StatementAdvisory.pdf
What do you think the "meaningful contributions" are going to be?
http://home.nra.org/pdf/StatementAdvisory.pdf
What do you think the "meaningful contributions" are going to be?
My guess is that it'll be some kind of mental health legislation, similar to the one they pushed (with help from the Brady morons) after the VT shooting. Maybe something to tie federal funds to reporting requirements.
secondstoryguy
12-19-2012, 12:26 AM
I hope so.
I would love to hear them suggest a First Responder program, similar to the Flight Deck Officer program, where some subset of existing teaching staff would be trained, tested, certified and armed to provide a last ditch deterrent in an event like just happened in Newtown.
F-Trooper05
12-19-2012, 12:37 AM
Whatever it is, the media will say it's not enough. Anything short of a new AWB isn't "common sense."
I just hope that this Congress that hasn't been able to agree to jack shit for five or six years doesn't finally decide to work together all of a sudden. I've got to admit, I'm nervous.
JConn
12-19-2012, 06:34 AM
In 94 I was too young to know better, but didn't the NRA support the previous AWB? And doesn't anyone see that CT's already failed?
And doesn't anyone see that CT's already failed?They're saying it failed because it's not in all states, it's too easy to bring stuff across state lines.
JConn
12-19-2012, 07:34 AM
They're saying it failed because it's not in all states, it's too easy to bring stuff across state lines.
But... He.... Didn't....
But... He.... Didn't....Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.
Mike Honcho
12-19-2012, 08:12 AM
http://home.nra.org/pdf/StatementAdvisory.pdf
What do you think the "meaningful contributions" are going to be?
My thoughts are that they'll sell EBRs and hi-cap mags up the river as a scapegoat so they can keep their wood-stocked bolt-actions and over/unders.
JConn
12-19-2012, 08:27 AM
My thoughts are that they'll sell EBRs and hi-cap mags up the river as a scapegoat so they can keep their wood-stocked bolt-actions and over/unders.
My thoughts exactly. This is exactly the sort of thing the supreme court was supposed to protect against not a paid lobbying group. If the nra sells us out, I know I will not give them another dollar. This will be difficult considering the best range in the area is their headquarters range, but I'll find a way.
NickA
12-19-2012, 09:25 AM
My thoughts are that they'll sell EBRs and hi-cap mags up the river as a scapegoat so they can keep their wood-stocked bolt-actions and over/unders.
I'm betting on some variation of this, maybe agreeing to a new AWB in exchange for tougher mental health regulations.
At the end of the day, even if the NRA turns out a picture perfect, fact-laden argument as to why an AWB isn't the answer (and that's a huge if), it won't matter. Whatever they say will be mostly unreported or twisted to fit the narrative.
LOKNLOD
12-19-2012, 09:42 AM
I'm betting on some variation of this, maybe agreeing to a new AWB in exchange for tougher mental health regulations.
At the end of the day, even if the NRA turns out a picture perfect, fact-laden argument as to why an AWB isn't the answer (and that's a huge if), it won't matter. Whatever they say will be mostly unreported or twisted to fit the narrative.
I'm afraid you could be right. At least the NRA will have some voice in the discussion, hopefully, which is more than I can say for myself. I don't envy the position they'll be put in, either. While we want them to give up nothing, if they play that angle and end up losing we could lose big time. Meanwhile any level of concession they make will hurt them with their own base.
I think they'll be playing a prevent defense, and just like in football, it always gives up lots of short yardage plays in the name of preventing the long bomb.
NickA
12-19-2012, 09:53 AM
I'm afraid you could be right. At least the NRA will have some voice in the discussion, hopefully, which is more than I can say for myself. I don't envy the position they'll be put in, either. While we want them to give up nothing, if they play that angle and end up losing we could lose big time. Meanwhile any level of concession they make will hurt them with their own base.
I think they'll be playing a prevent defense, and just like in football, it always gives up lots of short yardage plays in the name of preventing the long bomb.
Agreed. IF they have the backbone to hold a hard line for at least a few weeks, until emotions cool off, there may be a chance. The Biden-lead commission on violence is expected to have recommendations as soon as a few weeks from now, and you can bet that will be followed immediately by a hard push to get a new ban in before everyone has a chance to really think about it. If NRA comes out ready to compromise without at least trying to get the facts out there, we're cooked.
ETA: and I'm afraid it's wishful thinking that NRA or any other pro-gun voice will even be given a chance to participate in Biden's commission. They'll be hand picked by Biden and Obama with the express purpose of presenting one side and one side only, no dissenting voices will be allowed.
TCinVA
12-19-2012, 10:07 AM
My thoughts are that they'll sell EBRs and hi-cap mags up the river as a scapegoat so they can keep their wood-stocked bolt-actions and over/unders.
I don't believe that there are enough idiots at the NRA for that plan of action to actually have any traction. I believe the folks in the NRA-ILA right now understand that the people who send them money every year aren't doing so because they don't really care about keeping their AR-15's.
The NRA is just an interest group, however...they have no legislative or executive power. Thus the effort to demonize the NRA...it's so when people are proposing stupid ideas that legislators won't remember that the NRA represents lots of people who don't kill kindergartners and hopefully turn the stupid ideas into law. If the collective brain cell that's shared in Washington DC settles on the idea that there will be some gun control, it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see the NRA working to minimize how bad it turns out to be rather than taking their ball and going home.
There are a ton of people on our side of things who have loads of principle but absolutely no clue how power and politics actually work. If gun control truly does become inevitable in the Washington DC sense of things, the NRA working with legislators to make it more livable is far preferable to having Chuck Schumer write new laws without a challenge. Staying out of the process and yelling on TV doesn't fix things. It may make some people feel better, but the NRA isn't supposed to be a big group therapy organization. They're supposed to be involved in representing our interests to legislators. This can be very hard to do, especially when the legislators are hell-bent to blame us for dead kids. As a result the outcomes may not always be perfect.
I would love to hear them suggest a First Responder program, similar to the Flight Deck Officer program, where some subset of existing teaching staff would be trained, tested, certified and armed to provide a last ditch deterrent in an event like just happened in Newtown.
I agree, we need a program set in place to protect are students and faculty. Faculty and students who qualify should have the right to bear arms. School Marshals, in my opinion would be a great idea. This whole imaginary bubble "Gun Free School Zone" protects no one. In my opinion, it invites these actions to take place. Criminals don't follow the law in the first place, why would they start when they see a sign?! Only person you hinder is the law-abiding citizen.
Schools need training for this situation, like they do for fire drills.
If teachers don't want to carry or people feel it's unsafe, lock boxes may be an idea.
Chuck Haggard
12-20-2012, 02:17 PM
My thoughts are that they'll sell EBRs and hi-cap mags up the river as a scapegoat so they can keep their wood-stocked bolt-actions and over/unders.
Great plan.
Wait, the Texas Tower shootings were done with what kind of gun?
jetfire
12-20-2012, 02:42 PM
My thoughts are that they'll sell EBRs and hi-cap mags up the river as a scapegoat so they can keep their wood-stocked bolt-actions and over/unders.
...sigh
Look, the NRA isn't perfect. But all this anti-NRA nonsense is just silly and shortsighted; this isn't 1994 any more people. Unlike '94, we haven't been getting our assess kicked all over the place, in fact we've been winning. In political terms, this is more like the Battle of the Bulge; yes the Nazis are wrecking our trashcans for the moment, but that's only because they know the same thing that NRA knows: that if the anti-gun people can't get their agenda passed in the wake of Sandy Hook, they're over as a political force.
Like my buddy Sebastian said on his blog, this isn't our last stand, it's theirs. (http://www.pagunblog.com/2012/12/19/what-does-a-tidal-wave-look-like/)
NickA
12-20-2012, 02:48 PM
The hive mind strikes again ;)
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?p=107620
LOKNLOD
12-20-2012, 02:51 PM
...sigh
Look, the NRA isn't perfect. But all this anti-NRA nonsense is just silly and shortsighted; this isn't 1994 any more people. Unlike '94, we haven't been getting our assess kicked all over the place, in fact we've been winning. In political terms, this is more like the Battle of the Bulge; yes the Nazis are wrecking our trashcans for the moment, but that's only because they know the same thing that NRA knows: that if the anti-gun people can't get their agenda passed in the wake of Sandy Hook, they're over as a political force.
Like my buddy Sebastian said on his blog, this isn't our last stand, it's theirs. (http://www.pagunblog.com/2012/12/19/what-does-a-tidal-wave-look-like/)
It's good to be concerned about the possibility of unfavorable "compromises" but that shouldn't keep us from supporting the NRA so they can have the power to fight this battle. The best way to keep the NRA moving the way we want is to support them and be vocal. One of the reasons the left is eager to demonize the NRA over this stuff is so some on our side will throw them under the bus so they feel pressured to start in a position of compromise from the get go.
Am I pessimistic that something will probably get passed? Yeah. Am I going to let that happen without a fight over it? No.
orionz06
12-20-2012, 03:22 PM
If the NRA doesn't do us dry it will be a pleasant surprise.
...sigh
Look, the NRA isn't perfect. But all this anti-NRA nonsense is just silly and shortsighted; this isn't 1994 any more people. Unlike '94, we haven't been getting our assess kicked all over the place, in fact we've been winning. In political terms, this is more like the Battle of the Bulge; yes the Nazis are wrecking our trashcans for the moment, but that's only because they know the same thing that NRA knows: that if the anti-gun people can't get their agenda passed in the wake of Sandy Hook, they're over as a political force.
Like my buddy Sebastian said on his blog, this isn't our last stand, it's theirs. (http://www.pagunblog.com/2012/12/19/what-does-a-tidal-wave-look-like/)
Caleb = pen name for the resurrected spirit of Thomas Paine.
jetfire
12-20-2012, 04:10 PM
Caleb = pen name for the resurrected spirit of Thomas Paine.
That is the second highest compliment my writing has ever been paid; with the first being "you're like a midget gun toting Hemingway."
Bigguy
12-20-2012, 04:12 PM
That is the second highest compliment my writing has ever been paid; with the first being "you're like a midget gun toting Hemingway."
Uh oh. Somebody's not being PC
A learning moment. (http://twitchy.com/2012/12/13/a-learning-moment-rep-hank-johnson-apologizes-for-midget-mongering/)
JConn
12-21-2012, 10:59 AM
Getting ready to watch, I'm a bit nervous.
BaiHu
12-21-2012, 11:05 AM
Watching now. Put it on-it's on CNBC for me.
BaiHu
12-21-2012, 11:06 AM
Some jacktard holding a sign with "NRA is killing our children!" just got escorted out.
BaiHu
12-21-2012, 11:08 AM
Some jacktard holding a sign with "NRA is killing our children!" just got escorted out.
ETA: He's tearing it up-I'm proud to be a member of the NRA today!
UGH! he brought up the video game crap....ughhhhh! No, don't do it!! I know it points the fingers at the liberals, but yeesh!
At least he's discussing the media's culpability. Another crazy woman just got pulled calling for the ban of AWs.
Going into the inaccuracies of the media and how they perpetuate BS.
Nice quote: "only thing that stops an evil guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun." He even jumps on the media that they'll paint him as an evil guy calling for more guns.
Secret Service, Police and Soldier are good guys with guns, so why is a gun bad all alone. Why should a gun be bad for protecting our schools.
Overall I think he's rocking it and really hitting the most important points. Surrendering her life instead of being armed to protect those kids.
Nice! He went after foreign aid vs saving that money to protect our schools.
Brings up retired service folks that could join with school officials and police to plan a way to protect our kids now.
Calls congress out on the carpet to police our schools now. Gives them until January!
Awesome ending using the NRA to train for free a new program (Nat'l School Shield Program) to help solve this problem.
Brilliant coup IMO!
Yeah, I was pretty on board right up till he brought up video games. Now on to hollywood. Another idiot protester. I don't think attacking the media is going to get any traction in the general populace.
Back on track with personal responsibility.
"Why can't we protect our kids."
I think I like it.
The National School Shield - brilliant proactive idea. Here is a plan, who will pick it up?
JConn
12-21-2012, 11:38 AM
Overall classy as hell. The video game thing is stupid, but it does point to a culture that is very far removed from the realities of death but at the same time flooded with violence. Very few people hunt, or see dead animals much less dead human beings yet people die on in almost every TV show and video game you can think of. I play call of duty and watch violent movies and its no problem but our culture is unbalanced. I was fairly happy with the speech and he did say the new legislation wouldn't work, but I do wish their were some outright statements against an awb and magazine capacity restrictions or as wolf blitzer said high capacity assault clips for ammunition.
Tamara
12-21-2012, 12:10 PM
I will upgrade my membership as soon as they ash-can Stephen Colb... I mean, Wayne LaPierre imitating Stephen Colbert imitating Wayne LaPierre.
NRA did well :)
I was hoping someone intelligent would call the hotline on CSPAN. All I heard was lack of knowledge...
I hate when people say military style weapons / assault weapons shouldn't be owned by civilians. Thanks media and President Obama
Suvorov
12-21-2012, 12:24 PM
Extremely well done! Made me tear up!
Very Proud to be a Life Member of the NRA along with my 2 year old son who happily was playing with his trains as I read the transcript.
I hope and pray that all or most of this will come to fruition. The cynical part of me says it will be left in the dust to further the steamroller of progressivism, but I have hope that some states will have the political courage to make it happen.
I doubt you will find a real law enforcement officer in the United States that won't answer this call.
Matt O
12-21-2012, 12:42 PM
Though it's not surprising, the press conference immediately resulted in quite a few un-helpful headlines:
Reuters: Gun lobby CEO calls for guns to protect schools
CNN: The NRA to speak on Sandy Hook as mourning continues Friday
NBC: Defiant NRA leader rejects gun controls, asks to put police in schools
...etc.
I realize most of the media is pretty biased against second amendment rights, but they are the primary medium through which one communicates to the masses - most importantly in this case, those who may be on the fence about increased gun control. From a communications standpoint, and assuming the NRA was trying to reach out to the above target group via the press conference, I think the messages were not as nuanced or appropriate as they could have been. I'll be curious to see if and how the messaging changes going forward.
Disclaimer: I'm at work and couldn't watch the press conference so I'm basing this off of reading the transcript.
LittleLebowski
12-21-2012, 01:34 PM
I was hoping they would mention mental health and more statistics on violence. For right now, they seem to be channeling Defoor: http://kyledefoor.tumblr.com/post/38096809884/the-good-wolf
Dropkick
12-21-2012, 01:46 PM
I think it could have been better if the they spent less time scape-goating and more time on the proposed solutions.
ETA: Sorry, solutions, plural: the Mental Health Database, and the National School Shield
Glad I let my NRA membership lapse and instead renewed my Second Amendment Foundation and joined CAL-FFL.
Mortal Kombat? Natural Born Killers? What millennium did I wake up in this morning?
JConn
12-21-2012, 02:24 PM
Glad I let my NRA membership lapse and instead renewed my Second Amendment Foundation and joined CAL-FFL.
Mortal Kombat? Natural Born Killers? What millennium did I wake up in this morning?
They were definitely off base with their attacks on the first amendment, however, everything else he said was spot on. Keep in mind they are trying to earn money through donations. Those comments were directed at people from an older age group to appease them and get their money.
BaiHu
12-21-2012, 02:35 PM
It's the NRA and they're a political body that does a pretty damn good job given the lack of education on firearms......in the world.
Perhaps I'm just a bit too cynical, but I expected a lot less from them. I expected them to sell us out at least a little bit, so I could give a rat's rear end if they blamed Rambo, Terminator and Bambi. The fact that he didn't blame us or the gun is a huge step in the right direction. Especially with the cameras excitedly capturing the "NRA kills children" posters.
He sold out the generation of people who became interested in firearms because of video games.
Do not underestimate that.
Tamara
12-21-2012, 03:01 PM
He sold out the generation of people who became interested in firearms because of video games.
Do not underestimate that.
Word. "Gun Culture 2.0" just got hit by Wayne's "Friendly Fire".
jetfire
12-21-2012, 03:05 PM
He sold out the generation of people who became interested in firearms because of video games.
Do not underestimate that.
How so? How is pointing the finger at games like Mortal Kombat and some appalling Kindergarten Killers game selling out 21 year olds that play CoD? Don't get me wrong, I thought the ranting about the worst media of 1996 was weird and out of place, but being someone that played games all my life I just don't see the big ol' sellout of gamers here that everyone is telling me happened.
JConn
12-21-2012, 03:41 PM
He sold out the generation of people who became interested in firearms because of video games.
Do not underestimate that.
As one of those, I do not feel he sold out. We are not in danger of having video games out movies censored....because we have the second amendment. He was just trying to make money from the older generation with those comments.
On an unrelated note, I wonder who paid/smuggled the protestors in. I'm assuming you needed a media pass and that security was tight. I would be interested to see that investigated more.
F-Trooper05
12-21-2012, 04:04 PM
I just donated $100 more dollars.
secondstoryguy
12-21-2012, 04:35 PM
Back on track with personal responsibility.
"Why can't we protect our kids."
I think I like it.
The National School Shield - brilliant proactive idea. Here is a plan, who will pick it up?
Personal responsibility? 75% of the population has absolutely no idea what that really means. Most of the public actually thinks that the police will always be there in a moments notice to wisp them to safety. The reality of it is that police have no legal obligation to protect you. The SCOTUS has ruled so several times.
Solving complex problems takes planning, hard work, and sacrifice. It's for easier and more PC to brainlessly follow the herd, intact some inane laws and sit back patting yourself on the back with the distorted idea that you've solved the problem.
On a lighter note the government has just released a groundbreaking renewable energy source:
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh201/secondstoryguy/SpinningForefatherDynamo_zpsd56d6d94.jpg
Suvorov
12-21-2012, 04:36 PM
He sold out the generation of people who became interested in firearms because of video games.
Do not underestimate that.
I don't think that they sold out gamers and the entertainment industry - they merely pointed out the influence that this type of media has had on these murderers. No one is saying that a gun was not used to kill people, why is it so taboo to say that violent media was also used to fuel the lust for violence that led to the gun being used?
I can not find where the NRA is saying such video games should be banned, simply saying that the entertainment and news media (one in the same when one looks at the owners) have a finger in the pie as well. A friend of my wife who was very high up (I believe at the top) of the development of Microsoft's Kinect and is a manager at Microsoft was calling for a repeal of the 2nd Amendment within hours after the shooting. It is time media starts accepting some of the accountability as well.
LittleLebowski
12-21-2012, 05:53 PM
I don't have a lot of faith in the NRA during these dark times.
The reality of it is that police have no legal obligation to protect you. The SCOTUS has ruled so several times.
Which opinions set that precedent/upheld it?
Which opinions set that precedent/upheld it?
Many might point to Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005).
secondstoryguy
12-21-2012, 06:30 PM
Many might point to Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005).
That's the one I was going to mention. Plenty of other case law if you Google it. I'm not anti-LE as I was LEO at one time. I am however realistic about how much the average police department is willing and able to do to protect my family.
Boy, what are some of you guys going to do when you find out the same guy that won Heller and McDonald also filed an amicus brief in support of the video game industry when Brown v EMA went to SCOTUS?
JConn
12-21-2012, 09:10 PM
Boy, what are some of you guys going to do when you find out the same guy that won Heller and McDonald also filed an amicus brief in support of the video game industry when Brown v EMA went to SCOTUS?
Dude you're missing the point. A lot of people here are pretty libertarian and don't want video games censored any more than we want guns banned. We are just happy the nra didn't completely sell us out yet. It may still happen but so far somewhat good. I also support vcdl and goa but I understand that the nra is the largest best funded 2a organization out there and is unfortunately our best hope for avoiding future gun bans.
WoodlandShooter
12-21-2012, 09:31 PM
I have no faith in the NRA during these dark times.
Edited for greater accuracy...
The NRA went on the Offensive.
I can't say I'm upset with them. I think they did a great job, honestly.
Tamara
12-21-2012, 10:25 PM
The NRA went on the Offensive.
Truer words were never sopken...
(Some people were offended different ways than others, though. ;) )
Haraise
12-21-2012, 10:36 PM
Trying to protect one right by throwing others under the bus. Wonderful job. This is why they'll never get my money.
WoodlandShooter
12-21-2012, 10:46 PM
Trying to protect one right by throwing others under the bus. Wonderful job. This is why they'll never get my money.
To say the NRA went on the "offensive" today, makes me wonder...
I guess maybe they went on the "offensive" like my neighbors Yorkie - barks when you pull into the yard, but is terrified when you when you walk through the front door...
Chemsoldier
12-21-2012, 11:43 PM
Dont like them all you want. Their violent media stuff was off base and outdated to my mind. But...
...when it comes to defeating future gun legislation, no one else has the *ss to stop it right now.
I dont know anyone I agree with 100% (not even myself sometimes), and I will still gladly deal with the NRA.
Dude you're missing the point... We are just happy the nra didn't completely sell us out yet.
No, I think I understand the point all too well.
Pretty sad state of affairs when a lot of us had no confidence the NRA wouldn't cave in, many have little confidence the NRA can do anything in reality even after the NRA didn't cave in at least verbally, while others are pissed the NRA did say something fundamentally wrong among many things that are fundamentally right.
Saying NRA messed something up, f them, is like voting on a single issue principle. What's the alternative here? Sit and watch? Give money to the JPFO?
Or support less-than-perfect organization that has voice, presence, and lobbying power?
I get annoyed by NRA as often and as deeply as the next guy. Which was the reason why I started with joining other pro-gun organizations. What a monumental waste of money it was.
I got a lot going these days, but after the holidays I am going to look into upping my membership from life to whatever the next level is (afterlife?).
Cacafuego
12-22-2012, 01:21 AM
I've never become a Life member of the NRA, because I want the option of dropping out if they abandon my interests, which have nothing whatsoever to do with hunting, or high power shooting. Nothing in today's message gives me the impression they have done so. But we'll see.
Tamara
12-22-2012, 06:17 AM
Saying NRA messed something up, f them, is like voting on a single issue principle. What's the alternative here? Sit and watch? Give money to the JPFO?
I am a member of the NRA, which is different from being a member of the Catholic church. Wayne LaPierre does not speak ex cathedra, and when he drops the ball, especially when he drops it egregiously and on live TV, I am free to criticize his performance and perhaps call for his replacement.
Just because you think the quarterback is over the hill and needs to be let go because his salary is excessive and his best years are behind him doesn't mean you're not a fan of the team. Perhaps as a resident of Indianapolis, I understand this more intuitively than most.
JConn
12-22-2012, 08:03 AM
I am a member of the NRA, which is different from being a member of the Catholic church. Wayne LaPierre does not speak ex cathedra, and when he drops the ball, especially when he drops it egregiously and on live TV, I am free to criticize his performance and perhaps call for his replacement.
Just because you think the quarterback is over the hill and needs to be let go because his salary is excessive and his best years are behind him doesn't mean you're not a fan of the team. Perhaps as a resident of Indianapolis, I understand this more intuitively than most.
I know but if you throw him away and he goes to another team and revives his career and has a great season that's no good either:cool:
All I'm saying is the nra has the most clout and the only chance to really have an effect, not that I like everything they do.
Tamara
12-22-2012, 08:18 AM
All I'm saying is the nra has the most clout and the only chance to really have an effect...
Nowhere have I suggested they didn't.
God, this is just like discussing pistols...
"Y'all, I had an FTE with my Glock yesterday..."
"I love my Glocks! You should just sell it to me! Mine's been flawless!"
"Dude, I didn't say I was selling the gun, I just said it had an FTE yesterday."
On the Internet, Everything Is All Or Nothing. You read HuffPo or you read NRO. You own a Glock or you own a 1911. You donate to the NRA or you donate to the SAF. It's black or white, baby...
Sweet shivering Shiva, but I hate the internet.
It doesn't really bother me that he went after video games and movies, even though I disagree with what he said. Those industries already have other lobbying groups to protect them. The NRA's job is to protect gun rights, and they do that job (and that job only) quite well. If it was the Libertarian Party making that statement, yeah I'd be irritated, but it wasn't.
Sometimes deflecting attention is a good defense, especially since no one is calling for the heads of the MPAA.
NETim
12-22-2012, 08:27 AM
Nowhere have I suggested they didn't.
God, this is just like discussing pistols...
On the Internet, Everything Is All Or Nothing. You read HuffPo or you read NRO. You own a Glock or you own a 1911. You donate to the NRA or you donate to the SAF. It's black or white, baby...
Sweet shivering Shiva, but I hate the internet.
Well, it is made of 1's and 0's.
BaiHu
12-22-2012, 08:42 AM
Well, it is made of 1's and 0's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn2S7fq_p1E&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
Haraise
12-22-2012, 08:56 AM
Saying NRA messed something up, f them, is like voting on a single issue principle.
It is a single issue for me. Constitutional support.
Undermining the first to 'defend' the second is no positive to me.
Tamara
12-22-2012, 09:26 AM
It is a single issue for me. Constitutional support.
Good luck with that search, Diogenes. ;)
Unfortunately, I can't count on the NRA to defend my 1A or 4A rights any more than I can count on the ACLU to defend my 2A ones. Luckily, there's no law that says you can only donate to one group (even if it does put one on some odd mailing lists...)
Undermining the first to 'defend' the second is no positive to me.
No argument here, it is wrong and I hope they'll get it one day.
However, not supporting them now is the same as staying out of this particular fight altogether, 'cause no other body has enough mass. To me the level of current threat is high enough to sit on the sidelines.
If we lost this one, I'd be able to say "I did something", and you'd be able to say "I stayed true to my principles". Hope it will carry us both through.
Tam, I am not a fan of an old quarterback, my issues of American Handgunner have learned to flip his page so fast I don't even notice it. Having said that, I am pretty sure the whole offensive team wrote the playbook.
Kyle Reese
12-22-2012, 10:43 AM
Dont like them all you want. Their violent media stuff was off base and outdated to my mind. But...
...when it comes to defeating future gun legislation, no one else has the *ss to stop it right now.
I dont know anyone I agree with 100% (not even myself sometimes), and I will still gladly deal with the NRA.
Pretty much where I'm at, and why I'm donating another $100 today.
Is the NRA perfect? Of course not. Without them I am confident we would have UK style gun laws (or worse).
They tottered out an aging Elmer Fudd with a fruity last name who couldn't be bothered to practice his speech, to take a giant crap all over the last decade-plus of warfighters that grew up playing video games and have used the simulation software that spawned from it (or vice-versa, sure there's a geek argument in there somewhere), in some form or another, to hone their skills. AND, who are also vulnerable to the loss of civil liberties as a result of the mental repercussions to a normal reaction to abnormal circumstances.
All after having gone completely dark for a week....
I don't like that my dues go to an organization that's gonna step all over their dick in golf cleats, and I'm pretty clearly not the only one.
I'll deal with them, their crippling risk-aversion, their tonguing of the taints of deer/duck hunters, and their relegation of self-defense practitioners to the "lunatic fringe" while holding their nose as they accept the revenue stream, but I don't have to be glad about it.
orionz06
12-22-2012, 12:45 PM
If not the NRA then who else? I'll take Elmer Fudd in golf cleats over nothing at all.
Let's wait to bitch about them after the more immediate problem is solved.
LOKNLOD
12-22-2012, 01:04 PM
I'm glad to see our ability to eat our own isn't limited to the discussion of just guns.
The comments on games and movies were dated, and not the most eloquent, but I think they were reaching for the most extreme examples of the genres and that's why they ended up with references that were either somewhat obscure or just outdated.
But after the overall point that I believe they were trying to make, but didn't quite nail, was that the media, Hollywood, and entertainment industry need to get some skin in the game, and it needs to be their own skin, not just them calling for ours. They see these events and want to blame guns as if they have some kind of magical mind control power that causes people to become violent offenders when they pick them up. The stream of imagery and information that has been fed to someone throughout their life has a thousandfold more impact on how they behave when the touch a gun than the gun itself.
I've digested a pretty steady diet of violent video games and action movies over my life so I certainly don't believe that turns us all into dead-eyed murder machines. I also had unfettered access to all sorts of guns from an early age (guns and ammo in my bedroom from middle school upward) and that didn't make me go all slaughterhouse on the world either. What's the link? Well I also had some damn good parenting and moral guidance. Without that, who knows. Would I have automatically been a bad guy without the guidance but same access? Perhaps. But I could have also turned out bad with no guns or movies at all, without the parents involved. And some folks are plenty f'd up even with pretty decent parenting along the way.
Tamara
12-22-2012, 01:16 PM
All after having gone completely dark for a week....
That's what gets me. I figured that, dang, the whole high-powered marketing team sequestered for the week, pulling all-nighters, focus-grouping, trial-ballooning... they'd come out on Friday with something akin to Shock and Awe, and instead I got this.
I feel like a kid who counted down the days and then got a slice of liver instead of a birthday cake, and dried-out, badly-cooked liver at that. With no catsup.
Tamara
12-22-2012, 01:18 PM
I'm glad to see our ability to eat our own isn't limited to the discussion of just guns.
So, when your boss takes you aside and says "You're doing a crappy job; straighten up and fly right," is that cannibalism, or just a performance review?
jetfire
12-22-2012, 02:24 PM
I feel like a kid who counted down the days and then got a slice of liver instead of a birthday cake, and dried-out, badly-cooked liver at that. With no catsup.
You put ketchup on your liver? Heathen.
LOKNLOD
12-22-2012, 02:32 PM
So, when your boss takes you aside and says "You're doing a crappy job; straighten up and fly right," is that cannibalism, or just a performance review?
If my boss continues , "you just suck and that's why I'm glad I stopped paying you 2 months ago, I just forgot to mention it" then yeah, it's a little less than productive as a performance review. If you're not going to fire an underperformer, then the only way to make them better is to support and mentor them a bit...
We all know that the only answer the antis really deserve is for zombie Charlton Heston to rise from the grave, hold an M4 over his head, and say "fawk all a ya'll, we're the ones with guns, come get them, we shouldn't have to justify ourselves to you mealymouthed bleating sheep" but that's hardly a realistic answer that would actually help us win this fight. And yet somehow a lot of folks seem to be surprised that that's not what the NRA did? We all know that there's not much of anything that can be done to prevent a nutter from trying to hurt a bunch of innocent folks huddled under a sign that says "defenseless, attack us", at least not without locking down society to the point we think distopian science fiction is "feel good movies about the good ol' days", but you can dang sure take away that sign and give the innocent folks a way to stop the nutter in his tracks and defend themselves.
Sure, there was some deflection towards media. Good. Personally, if we are going to have a fight, I'd rather it be over my first amendment rights than my second amendment rights. The chances of the "do something" tyranny of the majority affecting any change on that front is much, much smaller. And while the slope is slipperier than the underside of Bill Clinton's desk, changing the rating system on video games or some other silly bullspit doesn't leave my family undefended in the meantime.
TR675
12-22-2012, 02:35 PM
I have always disliked LaPierre. He is a bombastic fool. Even if everything he said makes perfect sense, which I'm not going to argue about, he does not seem to understand that the way that you say things often has as much of an impact as what you say. Going on the attack when 90% of the country is waving pitchforks and torches around already is not the brightest thing he's ever done.
As always, Wayne is preaching to the choir. While that might be okay most of the time, he needed to pitch his arguments towards people who actively dislike him. Even if they were going to disregard everything he said, making the same arguments he made in a reasonable tone of voice give them less ammunition to use against us and him.
jetfire
12-22-2012, 02:41 PM
he needed to pitch his arguments towards people who actively dislike him.
Why? Those people aren't going to donate money, which is what NRA-ILA needs if they're going to defeat any potential AWB. Preaching to the choir is frequently effective, because they're already in church so they're more likely to toss a couple of bucks into the collection plate simply because they're already there.
LOKNLOD
12-22-2012, 02:44 PM
I have always disliked LaPierre. He is a bombastic fool. Even if everything he said makes perfect sense, which I'm not going to argue about, he does not seem to understand that the way that you say things often has as much of an impact as what you say. Going on the attack when 90% of the country is waving pitchforks and torches around already is not the brightest thing he's ever done.
As always, Wayne is preaching to the choir. While that might be okay most of the time, he needed to pitch his arguments towards people who actively dislike him. Even if they were going to disregard everything he said, making the same arguments he made in a reasonable tone of voice give them less ammunition to use against us and him.
He's certainly not the most likable guy. Another Heston or someone like Tom Selleck as the face of the NRA in public would go a long way in getting our voice out there better.
I read a hell of a lot faster than Wayne talks, so I read the transcript instead of watching; are you saying his tone was too curmudgeonly?
NickA
12-22-2012, 03:21 PM
He's certainly not the most likable guy. Another Heston or someone like Tom Selleck as the face of the NRA in public would go a long way in getting our voice out there better.
Hate to say it but I had the same thought. I wish it didn't matter, but it does. It makes it that much easier for the other side to dismiss the message when the messenger is abrasive, odd looking, and behind the times.
TR675
12-22-2012, 05:01 PM
Why? Those people aren't going to donate money, which is what NRA-ILA needs if they're going to defeat any potential AWB. Preaching to the choir is frequently effective, because they're already in church so they're more likely to toss a couple of bucks into the collection plate simply because they're already there.
Sure, when you're in church that works fine. But he wasn't in church. He was making a statement to a largely hostile national audience, at least some of whom I would imagine that he wanted to persuade, or least not piss off. Worse, he adopted an angry and confrontational tone when people are looking for unity and conciliation.
LaPierre has his uses, I suppose, but acting as a national spokesman for americas gun owners is not one of them.
Tamara
12-22-2012, 06:12 PM
If my boss continues , "you just suck and that's why I'm glad I stopped paying you 2 months ago, I just forgot to mention it"
I just tossed another two years' worth of membership in the NRA jar today, so I could keep criticizing with a clear conscience.
I'm a customer. What I'm buying is the defense of my 2A rights. If I think they're doing a poopy job of it, I reserve the right to say so.
I'll go Life if they ashcan Wayne.
ford.304
12-22-2012, 06:18 PM
Why? Those people aren't going to donate money, which is what NRA-ILA needs if they're going to defeat any potential AWB. Preaching to the choir is frequently effective, because they're already in church so they're more likely to toss a couple of bucks into the collection plate simply because they're already there.
So frightening the gun nuts into more donations matters that much more than being relegated to the lunatic fringe by the average person?
So frightening the gun nuts into more donations matters that much more than being relegated to the lunatic fringe by the average person?
Yes?
The average person has been trained to assume you're a nutbag the second they hear "NRA." You're not getting anywhere. If this comes to a referendum, there will be blood. We want this deal to get to congress, go into committee, and die an ignominious and quiet death after four months of infighting.
I think we're going to be ok on a federal level. If I lived in California, I'd put an order in for my u-haul.
Haraise
12-23-2012, 12:47 AM
Good luck with that search, Diogenes. ;)
Unfortunately, I can't count on the NRA to defend my 1A or 4A rights any more than I can count on the ACLU to defend my 2A ones. Luckily, there's no law that says you can only donate to one group (even if it does put one on some odd mailing lists...)
No need for a lantern, there are other groups that actually support more than one amendment in this country.
I'll just be over here voting for libertarians, as well. There'll be no progress made until a weight of support moves behind those who defend rights, as groups or in office. Until then we'll just have one erosion at a time, no matter which of the John Jacksons and Jack Johnsons are in office or making speeches.
LittleLebowski
12-23-2012, 08:35 AM
No need for a lantern, there are other groups that actually support more than one amendment in this country.
I'll just be over here voting for libertarians, as well. There'll be no progress made until a weight of support moves behind those who defend rights, as groups or in office. Until then we'll just have one erosion at a time, no matter which of the John Jacksons and Jack Johnsons are in office or making speeches.
We do need a cyborg Richard Nixon ;)
Haraise
12-23-2012, 08:54 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA7B3vpIlmQ
Cluing in. :D
I attempted to post some comments on "The Hindu" article responding to the NRA press release and apparently the moderators didn't like my Ghandi quote about depriving arms being the blackest days for India. The comments didn't make it.
TCinVA
12-23-2012, 11:37 AM
Politics is not a rational exercise, folks
I attempted to post some comments on "The Hindu" article responding to the NRA press release and apparently the moderators didn't like my Ghandi quote about depriving arms being the blackest days for India. The comments didn't make it.
Page 446, "The Story of my Experiments with Truth", Mahatma Ghandi: "I used to issue leaflets asking people to enlist as recruits. One of the arguments I had used was distasteful to the Commissioner: ‘Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act of depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest. If we want the Arms Act to be repealed, if we want to learn the use of arms, here is a golden opportunity. If the middle classes render voluntary help to Government in the hour of its trial, distrust will disappear, and the ban on possessing arms will be withdrawn.’"
Page 477: "As I proceeded further and further with my inquiry into the atrocities that had been committed on the people, I came across tales of Government’s tyranny and the arbitrary despotism of it’s officers such as I was hardly prepared for, and they filled me with deep pain. What surprised me then, and what still continues to fill me with surprise, was the fact that a province that had furnished the largest number of soldiers to the British Government during the war, should have taken all these brutal excesses lying down."
Damn him, that f'ing hack. What the hell does he think HE knows compared to Piers Morgan?!
http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/i-dXBjSvG/0/L/i-dXBjSvG-X3.jpg
Penny Arcade nailed it, sadly.
ford.304
12-23-2012, 04:34 PM
Yes?
The average person has been trained to assume you're a nutbag the second they hear "NRA." You're not getting anywhere. If this comes to a referendum, there will be blood. We want this deal to get to congress, go into committee, and die an ignominious and quiet death after four months of infighting.
Yeah, see, I'm not even the average person. And *I* just decided not to get off my ass and finally go send in the "Buy an NRA membership and get a free range bag" card that's been sitting on my desk for a week. I don't care that he's 'on my side', this isn't who I want representing me.
I know a *lot* of gamers whose ear we just lost with this stuff. Gamers who are the *perfect* demographic to take out to the range and sell the OMG COOL stuff they've been blowing terrorists heads off with for years.
Scaring the piss out of the base works for now, and might *even* be the better course of action for this round of AWB hysteria. But long term... we can't just be an organization of old nutbags. Give that *exact* same press conference, trash the free speech attack, and have someone who doesn't sound like Grandma Simpson give it, and I'm on board.
As it stands SAF and our state group are getting my cash this year, and I let the NRA know about it.
As it stands SAF and our state group are getting my cash this year, and I let the NRA know about it.
What have SAF done in the aftermath of Sandy Hook and in context of impending attempt to reinstate AWB?
Tamara
12-23-2012, 05:47 PM
Penny Arcade nailed it, sadly.
Dude, Caleb obviously needs to explain to Jerry & Mike what young gamers really think. ;)
(j/k, Caleb! :) )
What have SAF done in the aftermath of Sandy Hook and in context of impending attempt to reinstate AWB?
.......and what of anything useful has the NRA done? :confused:
.......and what of anything useful has the NRA done? :confused:
For better or worse, got on the national news and said something. Said they wouldn't cave in - when many feared that NRA will throw ARs and hi-caps etc under the bus; just check multiple web boards and see people predicting NRA's defeatist's position. Got on the national TV and reaffirmed the stance. This showed what NRA's lobby will be telling their audience on the Hill. Suggested alternative solution of armed school security. Boosted crowd's morale a bit.
Could argue how much this all count for, but what other groups have done?
Haraise
12-23-2012, 07:11 PM
.......and what of anything useful has the NRA done? :confused:
Successfully alienated the next generation of people that would have been on their side? :confused:
For better or worse, got on the national news and said something.
...using King George VI as the titular representative of the gun-owning public.
...to outline precisely who THEY'RE willing to screw over.
...and not only screw over, but do so on the basis of false science put in place to act as the proverbial red cape that hides the sword that kills the poor tortured, flayed, drugged bull.
Man-tastic.
Sharpie'ing a big check in the "Worse" box is more than an implied task....
I haven't read through the 100 responses that came before mine. Please forgive me if this has been addresses already.
State law in GA requires POST certification for those involved in school security. For us to put a deputy in every school would be $500,000 in startup costs and would operationally would cost around $1,000,000 annually.
Based on the amount of mail the NRA sends me they have my address; so, they should know where to send the check.
For better or worse, got on the national news and said something. Said they wouldn't cave in - when many feared that NRA will throw ARs and hi-caps etc under the bus; just check multiple web boards and see people predicting NRA's defeatist's position. Got on the national TV and reaffirmed the stance. This showed what NRA's lobby will be telling their audience on the Hill. Suggested alternative solution of armed school security. Boosted crowd's morale a bit.
Could argue how much this all count for, but what other groups have done?
What the NRA has done so far is absolutely nothing. Wow, a press conference; Big whoop. "Oh, it's the NRA and they gave a, "From my cold dead hands" speech again" is what the average citizen is seeing right now (if they've even heard/read about it), and the press conference was really of no consequence. Part of my point is that it's only a week out from the shooting. There aren't even any proposed measures from Biden's action team (whatever) yet. Kinda hard to "hit" any 2A group for not doing anything when there isn't really much to do, or any specific to challenge at this point. From what I've observed, it appears that SAF is less focused on publicity and fancy marketing, and just as focused on getting results in the dirty malaria-filled trenches of power called politics (or courts).....just looking at their track record, there is NO reason whatsoever to throw them under the bus simply because they haven't held a meaningless news conference.
operationally would cost around $1,000,000 annually.
Ah, the cost of the annual Cowboy poetry contest funded by the gov.
LittleLebowski
12-23-2012, 07:21 PM
For better or worse, got on the national news and said something. Said they wouldn't cave in - when many feared that NRA will throw ARs and hi-caps etc under the bus; just check multiple web boards and see people predicting NRA's defeatist's position. Got on the national TV and reaffirmed the stance. This showed what NRA's lobby will be telling their audience on the Hill. Suggested alternative solution of armed school security. Boosted crowd's morale a bit.
Could argue how much this all count for, but what other groups have done?
Larry Pratt versus Piers Morgan's screaming hysterics. Pratt handled himself quite well.
Successfully alienated the next generation of people that would have been on their side? :confused:
SAF is doing much better.
“Any meaningful discussion on violence,” Gottlieb added, “would need to include mental health, violent video games, television shows and films, media malpractice that sensationalizes violence and the dangerously false sense of security created by so-called ‘gun-free zones’.”
Full text http://www.saf.org/viewpr-new.asp?id=416
SAF is doing much better.
Did Haraise ever say the SAF was doing better in that regard?
Did Haraise ever say the SAF was doing better in that regard?
No, I don't believe she did.
Did I say she said so?
Haraise
12-23-2012, 08:26 PM
No, I don't believe she did.
Did I say she said so?
It was implied by quoting me and then responding to something that I didn't say.
That's why it was asked. If you respond to someone else, it would do you well to quote them instead.
It was implied by quoting me and then responding to something that I didn't say.
That's why it was asked. If you respond to someone else, it would do you well to quote them instead.
The intent wasn't to attribute a particular statement to you, but to continue a line of thought raised in your post.
Haraise
12-23-2012, 11:14 PM
The intent wasn't to attribute a particular statement to you, but to continue a line of thought raised in your post.
Ok. So if you're continuing my line of thought, no. I did not say, and would never say that one organization is better than another when they're both spouting the same anti-constitutional rhetoric.
I'm not interested in the republicans acting like my father or the democrats being my mother. I want neither a motherland nor a fatherland, I just want a state to live in.
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