Winter Driving

[Zhurdan]

I recently bought a new car. A front wheel drive car. I haven't driven a front wheel drive vehicle in around 12 years and I may have forgotten a bit about handling since then having only driven rear wheel drive vehicles for so long.

So, I ask you fine folks... is there any benefit to putting weight in the trunk of a FWD vehicle or does it just make the arse end have more potential momentum on slick roads?

Just one more example of "if you don't use it, you lose it" when it comes to skills. I dun forgot!
Thanks in advance.

[Haraise]

Don't put weight in the rear. It'll just destabilize the car.

All seasons are no-season. If you're going to put a cent down, get real winter tires. They actually make a difference, and a big one.

[Zhurdan]

Don't put weight in the rear. It'll just destabilize the car.

All seasons are no-season. If you're going to put a cent down, get real winter tires. They actually make a difference, and a big one.

Thanks Haraise. I thought that was correct, but it's been so long I just couldn't remember for sure.

Oh, and I'm figuring that no-season tires thing out right now. We got our first heavy snow yesterday. It put down 6" and then decided that it wants to hover around 14-18F for the next 3-4 days. Ordered some Ice/snow tires today, they should be here Thursday.

[orionz06]

Snow tires on the rear at a minimum, all 4 is the best way to go. Weight in the rear doesn't help and can make things worse.

[Haraise]

Snow tires on the rear at a minimum, all 4 is the best way to go. Weight in the rear doesn't help and can make things worse.

Please, please please do not listen to this post.

On a front wheel drive car, you want traction in the front, not the rear.

Putting them only in the rear will make you understeer like crazy and have no grip to actually go or brake.

Putting them only in the front can cause massive oversteer.

Keep your tires matched unless you're drag racing or drifting (on the cheap).

[orionz06]

Incorrect. The real answer should be four snows or no snows.

http://www.tireindustry.org/default.aspx?id=976&LangType=1033

Q: Why should I install two new tires on the rear axle of my front-wheel-drive vehicle?

A: Because a vehicle with brand-new tires on the front axle and worn tires on the rear has a greater tendency to lose control when turning in wet or slippery conditions. While the new tires on the front may "hug the turn," the worn tires on the rear may slide out and "fishtail." This condition is known as oversteer, and it has been known to cause serious and fatal accidents on front-wheel-drive vehicles with two new tires on the front axle and two worn tires on the rear.


Q: Can I install two snow tires on the front axle without installing them on the rear?

A: No. If winter/snow tires are installed on the front axle of any vehicle, they must also be installed on the rear. The difference in traction qualities may result in adverse handling characteristics, which can lead to loss of vehicle control. Therefore, in order to maintain performance and stability, winter/snow tires must be installed on all four wheel positions on front-wheeldrive vehicles.

[Haraise]

Incorrect. The real answer should be four snows or no snows.

http://www.tireindustry.org/default.aspx?id=976&LangType=1033

Understeer and oversteer, match your tires... yep, line for line what I just said above it. :)

[JHC]

I only recall that my Rabbit was superb in the snow just plain jane everyday tires. Not TGS level snow but 6-8 inches unplowed no problem.

[orionz06]

Except if only going 2 snows they go to the rear.

[Haraise]

Except if only going 2 snows they go to the rear.

I actually stated reasons not to go with either 2 snows. :confused:

[orionz06]

You said you wanted the traction in the front, while sort of correct you want the tires with better traction in the rear no matter what. The end game really is four *good* snow tires. Keeping the back end of the car behind you is a huge issue with mismatched tires in the winter and rain. It allows the rear to swing around. The theory is with bald fronts and new snow rears is that you can never get going fast enough to have understeer be an issue and the rear will stop the car.

[derekb]

I've generally had okay luck without winter/ice tires and no ABS. You just have to acknowledge that when it's proper slick, you're gonna be going slow.

[Haraise]

You said you wanted the traction in the front, while sort of correct you want the tires with better traction in the rear no matter what. The end game really is four *good* snow tires. Keeping the back end of the car behind you is a huge issue with mismatched tires in the winter and rain. It allows the rear to swing around. The theory is with bald fronts and new snow rears is that you can never get going fast enough to have understeer be an issue and the rear will stop the car.

...you're just repeating what I said again. Perhaps you should reread my post? I covered oversteer and understeer and ended the post with don't mix your tires. I'm not sure what you think you're arguing against here?

[peterb]

With all-seasons in snow, tread depth is critical.

There's someone at my work with a long-distance commute who buys new all-seasons every year in late fall and reports good success in winter driving.

[orionz06]

...you're just repeating what I said again. Perhaps you should reread my post? I covered oversteer and understeer and ended the post with don't mix your tires. I'm not sure what you think you're arguing against here?

Your very first line...


On a front wheel drive car, you want traction in the front, not the rear.

You want the best traction in the rear. Counter-intuitive but it is preferred.

But otherwise we are almost saying the same thing.

[Haraise]

Your very first line...



You want the best traction in the rear. Counter-intuitive but it is preferred.

But otherwise we are almost saying the same thing.

Ah, I see what you're getting at, thank you.

Oversteer is more fun, and this might be Mr. FWD's only chance to experience it. But yeah, average driver, understeer is safer.

[orionz06]

Bust out the McDonalds trays.

[EMC]

You're a wyoming guy right? I once got trapped in Rawlins when I80 was shut down. There was about 8 inches of snow on the streets. My tiny front wheel drive mazda protege handled it like a champ with new all season tires. I had chains, never had to use them.

[Haraise]

Bust out the McDonalds trays.

I'm confident the roads would be safer if driver's ed cars were equipped with food trays on the back the whole time.

[BLR]

On a front wheel drive car, you want traction in the front, not the rear.


I'm having difficulty thinking of a FWD car fun enough to own. ;)

[Zhurdan]

You're a wyoming guy right? I once got trapped in Rawlins when I80 was shut down. There was about 8 inches of snow on the streets. My tiny front wheel drive mazda protege handled it like a champ with new all season tires. I had chains, never had to use them.

Yeop! Wonderful Wyoming.

@all
I can drive all day long in this stuff, but with a shiny new car and the payment that goes with it, I thought I'd see "what's best". It gets around just fine, but I'd rather not find out my perceived skills are lacking at an inopportune time. I figure $500 for some ice/snow tires is a hell of a lot cheaper than a deductible and repairs. :D

[peterb]

I'm having difficulty thinking of a FWD car fun enough to own. ;)

Heck, with FWD you can do e-brake turns without affecting the driving wheels. :)

[RoyGBiv]

Heck, with FWD you can do e-brake turns without affecting the driving wheels. :)

And doing power donuts in reverse is more fun than forward.

[Haraise]

I'm having difficulty thinking of a FWD car fun enough to own. ;)

Well...

There's...

If you...

Yeah, not really. :cool:

[BLR]

Whatever gets you through the night boys.

[Haraise]

Heck, with FWD you can do e-brake turns without affecting the driving wheels. :)

The best e-brake turns I've ever seen were in an STI.

Driving wheels or not, rally guys know how to use that brake.

[Zhurdan]

I just wanna do a J turn once! Been close a few times to getting it all the way around, but too chicken I guess. :D

[TGS]

I just wanna do a J turn once! Been close a few times to getting it all the way around, but too chicken I guess. :D

FWIW, even though it's still taught, some protective details don't consider the J-turn a current TTP because of the risk for rollover even with sedans....

So, maybe don't try to get it all the way around. Or, buy a trip to BSR........ :)

[Zhurdan]

I'll probably catch hell for it, but here's the new ride I'm talking about.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r127/Zhurdan/2012-11-17_17-06-23_635.jpg

Cooper S Coupe. 189hp, twin turbos. 0-60 in 6.2. Not a muscle car by any means, but it scoots!

[ford.304]

Get that thing out to autocross. Lots of fun for the little flyweight front-wheelers.

I like my snow tires, but all seasons will get you by fine in most of the US. Just make sure you read the tire rack reviews and get ones that do well in snow.

[tremiles]

In a FWD, lift throttle oversteer in a transition is fun. Not quite as fun as a great bit power slide in a high HP rwd. But we take what we can get.

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk 2

[ford.304]

Especially if you get the suspension set up right, and some extra camber in the front. In autocross you essentially want a FWD car to handle like the back wheels are casters ;-) Best part is, to get control back, you just mash the go pedal as hard as you can.

[Zhurdan]

Coopers are fun fun fun little cars. I owned one of the first to be imported back when they were reintroduced. They had superchargers in them at that point, but this one feels a bunch more punchy. They handle like they are on rails. I think if I remember right, it'll hold .91 lateral G's.

It's way more fun than it should be, that's for sure. :D

[Haraise]

Why the coupe? It's disappointingly no lighter than the normal version.

[orionz06]

I'll probably catch hell for it, but here's the new ride I'm talking about.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r127/Zhurdan/2012-11-17_17-06-23_635.jpg

Cooper S Coupe. 189hp, twin turbos. 0-60 in 6.2. Not a muscle car by any means, but it scoots!


Ultimate grey-man car.


Cool little rides. At the price though I would prefer a Miata.

[Haraise]

Ultimate grey-man car.


Cool little rides. At the price though I would prefer a Miata.

I'm a pretty big Miata fan (having owned five of them, still have two), but I'd have to agree here. Even the NC Miata is a pretty fun machine in comparison to most everything else.

[Zhurdan]

Why the coupe? It's disappointingly no lighter than the normal version.

No, not lighter, a smidge heavier in fact. They still maintain nearly 50/50 weight balance and are pretty punchy. The wife and I have no kids (can't) so this is for our vacation trips. We own time shares and like to drive. Well, I love to drive, she just does it when I'm tired.... funny how that applies to so many things. The first one I had was powder blue, Mini Cooper S. Loved that car. Not one single problem in almost 200k miles. Would have kept it but it was time to get wifey a new vehicle. They hold their value surprisingly well.

We don't need much space, and the body design is cool IMO. Nice little touch, a spoiler pops up automatically at 50mph and lowers at 38. Not saying I'm looking for it, but I've seen people kinda "ohhh and ahhh" when it does. It's fun. I bought it to be fun, we are going to have fun in it, and it will take us fun places.

So many people tell me, "that's not practical", well, we didn't force 14 rug rats out of my wife's innards, so we can afford to be impractical. I took crap for the first one, I'm sure I'll take crap for this one from people out and about. No matter. We enjoy it and that is all that matters to me. :D

[Zhurdan]

Ultimate grey-man car.


Cool little rides. At the price though I would prefer a Miata.

I've driven a Miata, didn't like 'em. Plus, I wear a hat all the time, I'd run out of money replacing them. hehe

ETA - The other nice thing, with Mini, you basically can "custom order" with the things you want an skip those you don't. No haggling, not 6 hour day to work out a deal. Just punch it in, send it, wait, pick it up. BOOM.

[Haraise]

No, not lighter, a smidge heavier in fact. They still maintain nearly 50/50 weight balance and are pretty punchy. The wife and I have no kids (can't) so this is for our vacation trips. We own time shares and like to drive. Well, I love to drive, she just does it when I'm tired.... funny how that applies to so many things. The first one I had was powder blue, Mini Cooper S. Loved that car. Not one single problem in almost 200k miles. Would have kept it but it was time to get wifey a new vehicle. They hold their value surprisingly well.

We don't need much space, and the body design is cool IMO. Nice little touch, a spoiler pops up automatically at 50mph and lowers at 38. Not saying I'm looking for it, but I've seen people kinda "ohhh and ahhh" when it does. It's fun. I bought it to be fun, we are going to have fun in it, and it will take us fun places.

So many people tell me, "that's not practical", well, we didn't force 14 rug rats out of my wife's innards, so we can afford to be impractical. I took crap for the first one, I'm sure I'll take crap for this one from people out and about. No matter. We enjoy it and that is all that matters to me. :D

Are you talking about the Cooper?

Because there's not a front wheel drive car that has the engine, transmission and everything up front with a 50/50 balance.

The MINI is more like 63/37, way, way off 50/50.

All that matters is if you enjoy it! No need to defend people watching their life pass by in the catatonia of a boring car.

[Zhurdan]

Are you talking about the Cooper?

Because there's not a front wheel drive car that has the engine, transmission and everything up front with a 50/50 balance.

The MINI is more like 63/37, way, way off 50/50.

All that matters is if you enjoy it! No need to defend people watching their life pass by in the catatonia of a boring car.

You are indeed correct. I could have sworn i read that somewhere. Duh. ;-)

I'm not really one to walk with the herd, never have been. My wife and I love to be different. ;-)

[BLR]

The latest distraction - a 67 SS that will become a Z28 shortly. Not quite a 50-50, but whatever. The 12 bolt came out of a Chevelle - that was a royal PITA to adapt....

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/1911s/Beavercreek-20121220-02093_zps1bf50ff0.jpg

Race prep'ed 302s are proof God loves me and wants me to be happy. ;)

[Haraise]

Has this become a 'post your project thread?'

http://oi50.tinypic.com/34skm54.jpg

The most annoying part was fitting that ported LS1 throttle body and sheet metal manifold.

[BLR]

I see what you did there.

[WoodlandShooter]

In response to the original question, I've got a few suggestions.

First, put snow tires on all four - don't try to get away with any less.

Also, the brand of snow tires that you choose is particularly important. I would highly recommend Nokian Hakkapeliitta tires.

I don't know if you are considering, or would consider studded snows, but, with very limited exceptions, I'd suggest that you not get studded tires.

[Zhurdan]

Ended up with a full set of Dunlop Ice/snow tires. Impressive difference over All season tires to be sure.

Thanks for the help all.