Hardening soft targets

[DWB]

In light of recent events, myself and some friends and family are very much interested in learning along these lines, church/private school. Info, links, recommendations appreciated, thanks.

[WDW]

I'm confused. What exactly are you asking? How to make yourself a hard target in a public place?

[dbateman]

Thats a pretty broad question you have asked and could be given a lot of different answers.

You can start by being armed whenever posable.

If you have kids talk to them about what to do in different situations not just shootings but fires storms and so on.

Take your kid shooting teach them about guns and how to use them safely.

Be armed and carry a cell phone.

But mostly be armed.

Could you possibly give an example?

[WDW]

Well here's my $0.02...
First & foremost always be armed when you can be. This includes all accessories- extra mag, knife, light, phone, etc.
Next, avoidance is always better than confrontation. If you can escape a situation before it escalates that is preferable. You also need to decide how far you are willing to go & if you plan on defending only yourself & family or third parties as well. If you find yourself in an inescapable situation, seek cover & concealment & plan your engagement. Remember, you are liable for every round that leaves your gun so know your target & what's beyond it. Tying all of this together is keen situational awareness & planning. Plan where you sit, where you stand, where you park. Are you near an exit? Can someone approach you from the rear? Do you have a clear escape route? There are a million what ifs, but keen awareness, preparedness, & keeping a level head will put you lightyears ahead of everyone else out in public.

[DWB]

Sorry, bit unclear, posting too late at night, but I wanted to get it out there. We're looking at coming up with some plans for the hardening or protection of our church/school. I'm familiar with arming myself and public places, etc., but this is different. It's our kids and our family, and we want to avoid being unarmed fish in a barrel. I've found some training organizations that advertise programs and training for this kind of thing, but no info unless you cough up the $.

One good thing is the building is basically one big long straight hallway, and the rooms off of it all have exits to the outside. Several of us are recreational/competition shooters, and some are LE...but we mostly need a plan.

[TCinVA]

Assuming it's a place you have some sort of control over, IE a church:

- Control access points: Keep one main entrance open through which foot traffic must be funneled. All other doors should be set up so as to allow exit only if possible. Exit only is typically OK with most fire codes. Accessibility for elderly/handicapped folks needs to be taken into consideration. If this is a school, then all visitors/parents/whatever need to be funneled through an entrance that's controlled by staff. The first thing they need to encounter is a challenge from people who are there when the kids are. Visitors need to be accompanied by staff at all times and a person who isn't on staff in the halls should prompt a reaction from the teachers.

- Proactive church/school security: You need ushers/security folks who are actively engaging people who come into the church looking for signs of trouble. This can be done without giving every stranger who shows up the 1,000 yard stare. You can appear perfectly friendly while containing an individual and controlling his access to the rest of the people, especially if you've done the above and controlled the access points. These people should be manning the access point at all times greeting/looking over the people who are coming into the church for possible signs of trouble.

- Personality: You need to select people for the security positions who are capable of doing what is needed of them in a moment of stress. "Security" guys who don't do their job and keep rubberneckers away from the scene of an accident or injury to let the people with the first aid training/materials actually get in to render assistance aren't helping.

- Communication: You need some means of communicating the possible presence of a problem...something that's not obvious to the potential problem or, necessarily, to the other parishioners.

- Plan: You need some form of action plan for dealing with a problem. This plan needs to include multiple scenarios from the disruptive individual to medical emergencies all the way up to the active shooter. This plan needs to be structured in accordance with all applicable laws governing arrest, detention, use of force, etc, and also needs to factor in the need to bring police/EMS resources on scene. All the folks in the security program need to know the plan well and know their role in the plan. They also need to be intelligent and trustworthy enough not to talk about the plan with anyone. Ever.

- Equipment: There are some pretty decent methods out there for wedging doors or for making soft-close doors non-opening doors that can be deployed relatively quickly to prohibit access to a classroom. If that classroom's entrance is glass...well...not so effective.

- Sharp, pointy end: It would be helpful if at least somebody had a reasonable gun and the ability to use it in a real world environment. Ditto with first aid skills.

If you can put all of that together on a volunteer basis, more power to you.

Highly unlikely you'll be able to do that in a church or private school. Pretty much guaranteed you won't be able to put that together in a public school.

[DWB]

Good stuff, thanks.

Coordinate/plan with LE/EMS before hand, no?

[Kyle Reese]

If you wish, I can direct you towards reputable trainers in your area. Where are you located?

[DWB]

SoCal - thanks. Our focus is one planning/prep, I think we can take care of "which end is the sharp end".

Also, need to make a plan to avoid good guy civvy/LE conflict.

[Kyle Reese]

SoCal - thanks. Our focus is one planning/prep, I think we can take care of "which end is the sharp end".

Also, need to make a plan to avoid good guy civvy/LE conflict.

http://tridentconcepts.com/schedule/

http://www.redbackone.com/#!__training-calendar

If you're willing/able to travel for training, Tiger Swan is well worth your consideration.

http://www.tigerswan.com/site/training/schedule.php

[DWB]

Any input on this one?

http://www.chrisbellinternational.com/Church_Security.html

[TCinVA]

Good stuff, thanks.

Coordinate/plan with LE/EMS before hand, no?

Chatting with the emergency responders in your area with regards to your concerns certainly can't hurt. I'm sure the police and fire departments that serve your area would be more than willing to talk about emergency response concerns at the school.

[peterb]

Fire departments like the opportunity to walk through buildings that hold a lot of people. Having information to preplan a response is a huge help.

A "hey, if you guys ever want to run a drill here we'd be happy to help" is also appreciated.

EMS folks generally don't preplan as much, but if you're going to train your folks as first responders it'd be good to coordinate. If you use the same protocols and equipment it makes transferring care much easier.

As an EMS responder, my concerns include:
Can I get a stretcher in to the patient?(doorways, ramps, stairs, etc)
Can I trust anybody else to help? (training, coordination, identification)
Who's in charge?
Where should I park?
Where is the patient?
How many patients? How badly injured?

An ideal response has someone out in the parking lot parking us near the best access point, and someone meeting us at the door who can take us to the patient(s) while giving us a summary of the events.

[NCMedic]

EMS folks generally don't preplan as much

If you aren't pre-planning and doing drills, discussing, and preparing BEFORE the incident you are already behind the ball and setting up for failure.

In regards to the OPs question there are a lot of resources for planning for a active shooter or other type of incident, contact local law enforcement agencies and other responders, come up with a plan, then practice it, review, and re evaluate.
Sent from this... Using that...

[peterb]

If you aren't pre-planning and doing drills, discussing, and preparing BEFORE the incident you are already behind the ball and setting up for failure.

Agree. I should have said that in my(limited) experience, EMS agencies don't preplan for as many specific locations in the community as the fire departments do. Planning & preparation tends to be more for MCIs in general.

[SeriousStudent]

If I may be so bold.....

Have you sold this to the powers that be? The church deacons, board of elders, Jedi council, whoever?

Something to consider is selling it as threat analysis and threat modeling. What if there is a fire? What if someone falls and breaks a hip on the icy steps? What if there is a tornado? What if someone tries to take a child out of the nursery? What if armed robbers try and steal the collection on the way to the bank, after church? What if some evildoer tries to shoot up the church?

That was what we did. We looked at what could happen, what is the likelihood of it happening, and what is the impact of it happening. Threat modeling is a lot easier sell than "ZOMG we need to buy guns!!"

So we do have armed ushers. I'm one of them. We also have an AED, if someone has a heart attack. We have people trained in CPR and first aid. We have "panic buttons" in strategic spots. We have doors and doorways that can be barricaded, but they are pretty subtle. We have bookcases filled with spare hymnals, but placed to provide cover. Got stained glass windows? Thick Lexan plastic can protect the stained glass. Oh, it can also slow down bullets.

Ever think about how much cash is in the church around noon? Not checks, but cash? We have two armed folks that take the church offering to a bank by different routes each time, and they text someone back at the church who is awaiting a message. No message within a time limit - the popo gets a call.

All of this security is done in a way that is not immediately obvious or intrusive. If you knew what you were doing, you might spot some of it. But it's low key. Folks like to worship in a church, not Fortress America.

I'd also encourage you to think about security seven days a week. Our church stays locked during the week, and you have to be buzzed in. The staff have flashlights and pepper spray available. There are monitored alarms. Plus, armed folks drop by every day. One is a retired PD sergeant, the other is a retired Navy Chief Master At Arms. One helps out and makes the coffee in the morning for the staff. The other just likes to make themselves useful and chat, since he lives down the block.

But both are like TC said - security people that have deployed weapons before.

And most heavily guarded is the church nursery. Something about protecting the lambs comes to mind. We have smoke detectors, CO2 detectors, fires extinguishers, first aid kit, flashlights, a solid core door with deadbolt and two peepholes, and a really surly-looking old sourpuss sitting outside on the pew next to the door. This last Sunday he had a guitar case on the floor next to him.

It's a good idea that you have. But salesmanship as well as discretion will be needed to pull it off, if you are attending a church of any sizable population.

Good luck to you, and bless you for wanting to protect the small and defenseless.

[DWB]

Thank you for your post, good from someone actually doing it.

Pastor is the shot-caller and he's on board. We are a smallish church, around 300 in the building on Sundays, half that for school.

I'm big on the buzz-in thing. If a perp has to shoot his way in, it's more time and warning for those inside. Church I went to elsewhere had one because years ago 2 transients murdered the secretary with a screwdriver for whatever money was there. IIRC, she was ex-mil and put up a fight, which really just made it a horrible, horrible mess.

On a lighter note, the church is on the outskirts of town and set back from the road, where the mailbox is. Sunday, 10am, usher/greeter sees a guy pull up in a little while car, rip the mailbox off the post, throw it in his trunk, and take off....there was nothing in it, and he didn't check first. If he'd gotten caught checking, he might have played it off...if I'm not mistaken, tampering with a mailbox is a federal offense. So he risked a fed without seeing if he might actually get anything out of it. We all thought it was just kind of sad and funny, it was just a cheap mailbox.

The last thing any of us wants to do is kill anyone, but the other last thing we want to do is watch someone shoot our kids...

[DWB]

*lightbulb* A Sally Port would be awesome...instead of everyone having to hide/lock down/evacuate, and having to fight, simply contain the guy in a bulletproof glass entry room.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_port

[S Jenks]

As stated above, you need to think in terms of layered security. No single layer can be relied upon to function 100% of the time and deter all threats. Think of airline security, for example. In no particular order- discouraging vehicles from idling outside arrival/departure areas, controlled access points to areas both public and private, TSA checkpoints (both screeners and Behavior Detection Officers), LE presence in the building, the encouragement to report suspicious activity, intel being gathered by various sources and forwarded to the proper agencies resulting in No Fly Lists, down to the "last resort" presence of FAMs on individual flights. Each layer adds to the probability that a threat will be deterred, hopefully in the planning stages, but immediately and on-scene if needed.

Once a system is up and running, you must occasionally probe it for weaknesses through randomized drills. Ongoing job-specific training is a must.

For a single building, and if funding allows it, the properly setup airlock is a beautiful thing. My introduction to active shooter training included a tour of the security systems in place at the host high school. These included a hardened sally port with bulletproof glass for the attendant. All visitors were ID'd and their info phoned in to the local PD before they were provided a staff escort. Any warrants or active restraining orders involving students/family were quickly addressed by the full-time SRO, who was running the AS training (not your typical SRO). Long guns and rifle plates were available to said SRO and the camera system was internet accessible by the PD shift commanders and dispatch in case of emergency.

All this with minimal intrusion to the student's and teacher's daily lives. It's very possible to create effective layers of security while still maintaining an open, welcoming atmosphere.

[SeriousStudent]

The sally port may actually be easier than some people may think. A lot of churches have a lobby where folks visit and chit-chat prior to services. Ours does.

The AV desk in the rear of the church sanctuary controls the sound system, and it's child's play to have an IP camera set up there. A single monitor can display the outside entrances, and main lobby. You can pick that up relatively cheap at Sam's. Small retail stores set them up all the time. IR setups for darkness are possible. There was actually a good thread on arfcom you might want to check.

If you talk to your insurance company, the reduced premiums may possibly offset the cost of the camera or monitoring systems. We already had the computer gear and wireless networks, plus building the DVR\computers was not very difficult for the geeks in our congregation.

[MDS]

Kyle Defoor posted about what sounds like a program to help schools and similar targets. I would reach out.

http://kyledefoor.tumblr.com/post/38096809884/the-good-wolf

[tjbeck]

http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter/articles/2058168-Lt-Col-Dave-Grossman-to-cops-The-enemy-is-denial/

[BaiHu]

http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter/articles/2058168-Lt-Col-Dave-Grossman-to-cops-The-enemy-is-denial/

Been posted already on another thread or two:

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?6289-Hold-them-accountable&highlight=grossman

and here

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?6273-School-Shooting-in-Newton-CT-Where-s-Mitchell-Esq/page22&highlight=grossman

[DWB]

Excellent stuff, I love the Police/Firefighter contrast...not that I blame the police, I blame the politicians.

[MDS]

Excellent stuff, I love the Police/Firefighter contrast...not that I blame the police, I blame the politicians.

Don't blame the politicians, blame the voters who put them there. I was having the usual family chat yesterday (the Cuban kind, it's a contact sport) and the idea occurs to me that we might fix things with only one difficult change: you can't vote if you've gotten any kind of direct government support (welfare, subsidy, low-interest loan, etc) within the last 8 years.

[DWB]

I agree, but the politicians are still wrong, regardless of who elected them. :D

[BN]

Grant at GRTactical might have some info. http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=72764