View Full Version : Looking for thoughts & input on DDLES Lowers
Howdy all,
Having made the decision that for my personal situation a 9mm SBR makes an incredible amount of sense as a "nightstand" gun, I am looking for thoughts on the build quality, reliability & serviceability of the dedicated 9mm AR lowers from Double Diamond Law Enforcement Supply.
At this point I believe I have decided on the Colt pattern as I am not a Glock shooter so there would be no benefit of shared magazines and my understanding is I will have greater parts availability & compatibility with the Colt pattern.
That is about all I have right now and as usual any and all feedback is greatly appreciated from you guys, so if there is another manufacturer i should be considering or possibly another platform for a 9mm SBR 'HK's are out of the question for cost reasons' please let me know.
Thanks,
Jay
When I was considering a DDLES lower for a SBR 10mm upper, DOCGKR pointed me to a 9 inch AAC upper in .300 BLK. Couldn't be happier, as it is moa accurate, and in SBR form with supersonic Barnes bullet loads, a capable 200 yard carbine.
When I was considering a DDLES lower for a SBR 10mm upper, DOCGKR pointed me to a 9 inch AAC upper in .300 BLK. Couldn't be happier, as it is moa accurate, and in SBR form with supersonic Barnes bullet loads, a capable 200 yard carbine.
I am well aware of .300 BLK but ammo availability & costs combined with concerns about sub-sonic reliability & efficacy are currently keeping me away. The main reason behind building/buying this weapon is noise levels, my hearing and the quality of it are directly anchored to my income and I know that if there is something going down in my home I am going to skip grabbing my ear pro and immediately move to investigate & engage. This train of thought lead me down the road of deciding upon a subsonic JHP loading with reliable expansion, I arrived at .45 & 9mm. Upon arriving at this conclusion I moved onto platform and that is where I am know.
My other major concern's in regard to a factory loaded subsonic .300 BLK JHP are; A) I can't seem to find one? and B) the costs of 'Vetting' the completed firearm with the selected round "500-1000+ rounds" will NOT be pleasant on the wallet.
So Jay, you don't plan to run a suppressor on this SBR?
I definitely get ammo cost/availability as a plus for 9mm, but if you are looking at the AR platform, I don't associate those in 9mm with great reliability. Are you also considering other carbine options?
If you do get a DDLES lower, I will be very interested in your results, as I have always been a sucker for a 10mm carbine, and the DDLES using Glock 20 magazines looks interesting.
Ridiculously low end, but years ago, I got one of those folding KelTec things, that took Glock magazines, and mine in .40 was reliable and stupid accurate.
So Jay, you don't plan to run a suppressor on this SBR?
I do there is currently a Ti-Rant waiting in my dealers safe for me which went pending early October, along with a Surefire FA556-212 and a Sparrow. The Ti-Rant will be put on my P30 while I am waiting on the stamp for this next purchase.
Ridiculously low end, but years ago, I got one of those folding KelTec things, that took Glock magazines, and mine in .40 was reliable and stupid accurate.
The Kel-Tec sub is interesting but I have heard a mixed enough message regarding Kel-Tec reliability that purchasing one for 'social' purposes doesn't sit well with me.
I demand reliability above all else in a firearm and I hope my defensive weapons (Benelli, H&k, Noveske) speak to that. The way I look at it is by the time I complete the mental gymnastics of deciding to fire one of my weapons in defense of myself or my family the last thing I want to hear when i pull the trigger is *click*.
To your point on considering other platforms I am wide open, budget is less than 3k assembled with 5-10 magazines "I already have an Aimpoint PRO and Surefire M300 Scout to go on it.
The reason I asked, is I was just reading an article today suggesting that the .300 BLK in a 9 inch AAC upper with a suppressor was hardly louder than a suppressed MP5.
I am used to shooting big calibers in the hunting field without hearing protection, so maybe I should be more careful. Since you have been studying this, any idea how loud a 9 inch AAC shooting supersonic loads with a suppressor would be inside without ear pro?
I have an SP89 I was going to form 1, but it seemed a lot of fuss for the performance of a 9mm.
The reason I asked, is I was just reading an article today suggesting that the .300 BLK in a 9 inch AAC upper with a suppressor was hardly louder than a suppressed MP5.
I am used to shooting big calibers in the hunting field without hearing protection, so maybe I should be more careful. Since you have been studying this, any idea how loud a 9 inch AAC shooting supersonic loads with a suppressor would be inside without ear pro?
I have an SP89 I was going to form 1, but it seemed a lot of fuss for the performance of a 9mm.
My only first hand experience with suppressors is on .45 pistols and it wasn't anything more than putting a few magazines through a friends set-up on an outdoor range. Ideally I would like my indoor defensive build to be below 129db, no small feet with centerfire and possibly unattainable with a semi and factory defensive loads. I have zero experience with supersonic suppressed anything but the sound barrier breaking *crack* anecdotally seems pretty loud, but this is something I intend to investigate thoroughly once all the cans get approved.
And if I was lucky enough to already own an SP89 I would be hunting a competent smith and dropping a couple grand on conversion parts.
From everything I can tell I would have to spend at least 5k to get a semi-auto MP5/UMP running & running well once purchasing the SP89 or USC and converting it with as many factory parts as I could get my hands on, and considering I just got out of the dog house with the wife for all the money spent on the cans & stamps me dropping that on a single gun would not be currently beneficial to my long term mental & physical well being.
See, that Kel Tec is looking better!
Kidding aside, it is the only Kel Tec I own, and a sample of one is obviously an anecdote, not data. I bought it because it folds into a tiny package, uses Glock magazines, and was legal where handguns were not.
My issue, is that if I am going to use a long gun, I want more power than a pistol, so that means a shotgun/AR. I would think that Benelli you mentioned would be a darn good house gun. I want to protect my hearing, but not as much as I want to protect my wife and me!
I can tell you what you do not want to shoot inside -- a four inch, ported .500 S&W. Buddy of mine shot a grizzly bear on his enclosed porch -- at the shot, the bear went down, and him too as the concussion from the shot inside dropped him as quickly as the bullet dropped the bear.
Jay Cunningham
12-16-2012, 11:15 PM
Howdy all,
Having made the decision that for my personal situation a 9mm SBR makes an incredible amount of sense as a "nightstand" gun, I am looking for thoughts on the build quality, reliability & serviceability of the dedicated 9mm AR lowers from Double Diamond Law Enforcement Supply.
At this point I believe I have decided on the Colt pattern as I am not a Glock shooter so there would be no benefit of shared magazines and my understanding is I will have greater parts availability & compatibility with the Colt pattern.
That is about all I have right now and as usual any and all feedback is greatly appreciated from you guys, so if there is another manufacturer i should be considering or possibly another platform for a 9mm SBR 'HK's are out of the question for cost reasons' please let me know.
Thanks,
Jay
I really need to question the thought process that led to this decision. I do understand that your hearing plays an important part, but this arrangement seems odd.
I really need to question the thought process that led to this decision. I do understand that your hearing plays an important part, but this arrangement seems odd.
I was attempting to edit my original post with the below information but it would not let me 'possibly due to time'. But I hope whats below answers most peoples questions, I have been struggling with this decision for months & I do currently feel it is whats best for MY needs but I am always looking for the valuable insight this forums members provide. I have considered everything from a Lever Gun to a pistol to carbine conversion kit "Roni etc". If there is something I overlooked or should consider more seriously, or there just isn't anything that is considered to reliably meet this criteria so be it 'I will not stubbornly & ignorantly attempt to prove anyone here wrong especially any of the S.M.E's'. But I figured the one forum that could truthfully explore this topic's merits and pit falls it would be here.
If we can collectively have this discussion and find a setup we strongly believe has a chance of performing as desired I plan to fully document the process here for all to see & learn from including some form of decided upon vetting protocol e.g. the 2k challenge.
With the response to the MP5SD thread and the fact that 9mm carbine threads pop up every few months I believe this exercise has its merits both for the enrichment of the community as well as the defense of my home.
Goals:
A compact shoulder fired weapon chambered in a reliably expanding subsonic JHP.
Useful engagement range of 0-50 Yards. The longest possible single sight line in my home is 25 Yards.
Reliable operation when suppressed.
Reasonable parts availability ' I don't mind moth balling a few extra bolts firing pins etc.'
Reasonably easy maintenance.
Good manufacturer support.
Budget less than 3k to include tax stamp and spare magazines.
Reasons:
I want a quiet defensive long gun for the house 'my hearing is directly linked to my income and it would suck to have to deal with both a DGU and an inability to continue in my career'. I also do not want to inflict hearing damage on my family or pets.
Sub Caliber 'Pistol Caliber' at sub-sonic velocities I believe will be contained within the confines of my home due to 2X4 construction with a true 4" brick veneer. My neighbors houses are less than 10' from mine and worse case scenario I do not see a round fully penetrating their homes exterior after exiting mine.
Jolted awake and running on adrenaline at 3am I prefer my odds of landing hits on target with a carbine with an RDS & WML vs. a muzzle heavy suppressed pistol with a WML.
As far as the argument about using NFA items in a DGU and Jury's & Prosecutors, its a bridge I hope I never have to cross but I will do so if need be.
Jay Cunningham
12-16-2012, 11:28 PM
I really think you're looking at the worst of both worlds here.
The effectiveness of a weapon like a suppressed Mk18 on a human threat is orders of magnitude more than a suppressed 9x19mm.
A suppressed 5.56mm is not going to permanently damage your hearing. It will ring your bell, but you'll be okay. A good suppressor will knock something like 33 - 35 decibels off the report.
Consider what's truly important.
orionz06
12-16-2012, 11:33 PM
If I am going to lose mobility by switching to a carbine I want to gain something. A 9mm carbine, to me, seems like a pistol that significantly impacts my mobility should I have to move around in the house. I leave the carbine with the wife and grab a G17 with an X300.
I really think you're looking at the worst of both worlds here.
The effectiveness of a weapon like a suppressed Mk18 on a human threat is orders of magnitude more than a suppressed 9x19mm.
A suppressed 5.56mm is not going to permanently damage your hearing. It will ring your bell, but you'll be okay. A good suppressor will knock something like 33 - 35 decibels off the report.
Consider what's truly important.
Along with the cans my Noveske is pending on a form 1 specified with a 10.5" Barrel, "the whole purpose of that build is to conform to your thread on setting up an HD Carbine which I believe is one of the most well thought out and discussed threads on that subject anywhere. And I plan to do extensive testing with the completed setup '10.5" + SF 556-212' but my understanding is suppressed 5.56 is still quite loud and my hearing is so sensitive that I currently fear I may hesitate indoors without ear pro.
My hearing is freaky I can literally hear a pin drop from across the room and track down minor sources of vibration and what I call 'sonic contamination' in reasonably loud environments 90-105db. I work in mid to high level custom consumer electronics 'home theaters, media rooms, 2 channel stereos etc. and what I can do in a room with my ears and a selection of listening material exceeds what most of my peers do with stacks of microphones and analyzers. Just because the gear says its flat it doesn't automatically mean the room and system are engaging and enjoyable.
my hearing is so sensitive that I currently fear I may hesitate indoors without ear pro.
You started on the right premise, IF you leveraged this off the idea that auditory-exclusion may affect how you process sound during an encounter, but will not automatically prevent any physiological damage. However, you took a sharp left turn somewhere along the line.
If you're already wargaming that you're gonna be more worried about your hearing than you are about surviving/dominating the encounter....then you'll be more worried about your hearing. You're already inside your own OODA loop, doing the bad guy's work for him.
Also, take a moment to wargame some the hardware considerations of the Other Voter(s)....the baddie's suppressed or unsuppressed firearm is just gonna roll off of your cochlea like water off a duck's rump...?
"I say, you simply MUST trade that unsuppressed pistol for a suppressed pistol-caliber carbine, such as my own. I'm bewilderingly concerned over my Vulcan hearing...call it a quirk..., and we simply cannot engage in this gunfight until my conditions are met!"
Yeah....no. That's a world of chocolate streams and trees that dispense beer. The fret over hearing in regard to steps that prevent this sort of violent encounter in the first place, NOT in what you're gonna use to prosecute said violent encounter, should it come to pass.
I'm actually NOT saying that your hearing isn't important, or that you shouldn't be concerned over it, but that you're leaning toward a solution of lesser terminal ballistic performance based on an incomplete assessment of what will have an impact upon your hearing, and that your focus upon your hearing has created mindset shortfalls that need to be addressed at some point.
Worst of both worlds, agreed.
I guess I was just trying to eliminate a variable 'the variable being a concern about how my actions may impact my hearing'.
Ballistically speaking I 'not yet having any first hand experience with 5.56 out of an SBR' assumed the gap between a 147 Gr. JHP 9mm out of a 5"-7" barrel would not be that far off from 70+ Grain OTM 5.56 out of a 10.5" barrel. But apparently I am gravely mistaken.
Nothing will ruin a day at the range for me faster than someone deciding they need to be as close as possible to me while running a brake on a centerfire rifle and thats while wearing plugs & Sordins at an outdoor range.
I want to believe that I will not hesitate, but at the same time I don't think anyone truly knows how they will react until they have been there, and that being said that person obviously did something correct considering they have the luxury to reflect upon it.
I also understand the maneuverability issues inside a residence when selecting a carbine over a pistol, that being said my house is small enough and the floor plan open enough that I do not have this concern, there is one blind corner at the end of a long wide hallway 25' that I can easily pie with a standard length shotgun.
Thanks to all for all of the input from all the Members Supporters & S.M.E.'s, I guess I just need to suck it up and work on finding some ways to desensitize myself to 'getting rung' and eliminate that particular fear rather than trying to steer the gear train to hard.
Thanks again,
Jay
While I have never had someone shooting AT me, I have had the experience of shooting, without hearing protection, many game animals, some dangerous including over a half dozen cape buffalo, elephant, lion, leopard, and multiple grizzly bears with calibers ranging from .375, thru .416 Rigby, .460 G&A and .470 NE. Only once do I ever recall hearing shots fired as painful, and that was in a dust-up with a cape buffalo. In that instance, my wife fired five shots of .375 H&H right next to my ear, and only after the fourth shot did I notice the shot and feel pain. I was shooting a Rigby at the time, and never noticed the sound of my shots.
Others with relevant experience being shot at will hopefully comment as to what they heard by way of noise level. Related question, which I don't know the answer to, but do our guys with suppressed M4's patrol with or without ear pro in the field?
My primary consideration would be to deliver a decisive shot to end the situation ASAP, and for that reason I would be looking at a shotgun/AR for your situation, especially with the proximity of your neighbors, given that the shotgun and AR will likely penetrate less than many pistol rounds.
While I have never had someone shooting AT me, I have had the experience of shooting, without hearing protection, many game animals, some dangerous including over a half dozen cape buffalo, elephant, lion, leopard, and multiple grizzly bears with calibers ranging from .375, thru .416 Rigby, .460 G&A and .470 NE. Only once do I ever recall hearing shots fired as painful, and that was in a dust-up with a cape buffalo. In that instance, my wife fired five shots of .375 H&H right next to my ear, and only after the fourth shot did I notice the shot and feel pain. I was shooting a Rigby at the time, and never noticed the sound of my shots.
Were those shots fired inside a building?
Huge difference. Exponentially different.
Others with relevant experience being shot at will hopefully comment as to what they heard by way of noise level. Related question, which I don't know the answer to, but do our guys with suppressed M4's patrol with or without ear pro in the field?
FWIW, many of our guys running unsuppressed, without ear pro, lose their hearing, some to significant amounts. One of my best friends in the Marines was a grunt for 4 years, and it's like talking to an old deaf man. Even myself, not being a grunt, went from perfect hearing to being flagged for hearing loss just from running one live fire assault without ear pro. That was outdoors......indoors, even an M240 firing blanks was enough to jog my brain.
LittleLebowski
12-17-2012, 03:12 PM
I got shot at a range of roughly 3' with a .45ACP in a vehicle. My hearing has been tested since then and I'm fine.
I got shot at a range of roughly 3' with a .45ACP in a vehicle. My hearing has been tested since then and I'm fine.
If you don't mid me asking were the windows of the vehicle open or closed? And I fully understand having just been shot you may have failed to store that specific piece of information in the old databanks.
Just reading the Chris Kyle book, American Sniper, and he never wore ear protection in Iraq.
Just reading the Chris Kyle book, American Sniper, and he never wore ear protection in Iraq.
Interesting, this all does seem to jive with everything I know about how we as humans hear. The lower the frequency the louder the exposure we can endure, I forget the exact cutoffs and I am sure there will be a substantial variance depending on both the individual & age but we 'hear' the lower registers via vibration of small bone structures within our ear and the mid & upper frequencies through the eardrum itself. So that being said theoretically some people could probably endure tremendously loud 160DB + low frequency attacks but be running for cover from 130db high frequency noises.
Now the problem's occur when the sonic levels actually create an over pressurization within the listening environment and then actually build more air pressure in the space then the thin surface of the eardrum can tolerate. So the listening environment is directly related to the volume or SPL which can be either tolerated or induce significant damage. So a given noise at a given volume performed both out side and inside will have hugely perceptible differences on the listener even though all the relative meters are reading the same.
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