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S391
02-25-2011, 01:41 PM
Todd, do you ever offer any revolver-specific training?

Thanks,
Steve

ToddG
02-25-2011, 01:47 PM
I do not, nor do I consider the revolver a particular area of expertise of mine. While I've had students come through some shorter classes with revolvers, most of what I teach is fairly high round count and not many people want to pull heavy DA triggers 500 times a day (or reload 100 times a day!).

Three guys I'd recommend who truly specialize in revolvers:

Jerry Miculek (http://www.jerrymiculek.com/)
Michael De'Bethencourt (http://www.snubtraining.com/)
Claude Werner (http://www.dryfire-practice.com/page1.php)

jetfire
02-25-2011, 02:15 PM
"The world is not revolver neutral" - the problem that us wheelgunners face is that most firearms training is focused primarily towards semi-automatic pistols. However, the right mindset can grab maximum value out of any training class. The same principles apply from semi-autos to wheelguns, draw, sight alignment, economy of motion, the press-out, etc.

Unfortunately, there are fewer and fewer guys running wheelguns, so it doesn't make a lot of financial sense for trainers to offer a dedicated wheelgun class that may only see 7 or 10 participants. I was even going to shoot a Magpul class with a wheelgun, but then I decided against it specifically because I didn't feel like reloading all the time. So instead, I'll take most classes with a semi-auto and then try to apply the same principles from the class to revolver shooting.

David Armstrong
02-26-2011, 06:29 PM
I took one of my DTI courses with John Farnam and used an S&W Mdl 65, and I've seen a few others with them at his classes. John's had a lot of experience teaching the revolver so there is another option for training.

I'm not in the same category as some of those other folks, but I do teach to the revolver quite a bit due to my CCW classes, so that might be something to look at, a local CCW trainer.

Chuck Haggard
02-27-2011, 12:16 AM
I had quite a bit of revolver training, having gotten "on da job" back in the day when coppers carried wheelguns. I recall when "auto pistol transition" training classes were all the rage and the semi-auto was seen as some sort of exotic weapon system.

Anyway, even with my background I jumped at the chance to attend Claude Werner's snub class in OKC last year.
It was a most excellent class, by an excellent instructor, and I learned some good TTPs specific to the snub that I had not seen before.
Highly recommended.

Jay Cunningham
02-27-2011, 12:19 AM
Personally, I've learned a great deal about revolvers (how they work and how to operate them) through teaching NRA Pistol classes. If you find the right NRA Pistol course with the right group of instructors you can find some real expert advice on wheelguns.

backtrail540
02-27-2011, 10:45 PM
Sand Burr Gun Ranch in Indiana has many revolver only courses, including snubbie only. Massad Ayoob even does classes there occasionally. They seem to be a top notch place as far as revolvers go, although I have no personal experiences with them.

Bratch
03-01-2011, 03:19 PM
I was in Claude's class with tpd223 and second everything he said. I learned several things I was doing wrong because I was treating the J as an autoloader. It was a very worth while class. I would like to take a De'Bethencourt class as well but I haven't seen a class for him west of the Mississippi.

David Armstrong
03-05-2011, 02:41 PM
FWIW, I recently found out that Thunder Ranch is now teaching Defensive Revolver classes. Clint has frequently recommended the large-bore revolver for defense and should give a good program with it.

Wheeler
03-05-2011, 07:01 PM
I wholeheartedly concur with the recommendations for Claude Werner. He has taken quite a bit of time to study the use of a revolver, specifically a snub, as a viable defensive alternative. He is an excellent instructor, with a very good classroom portion as well as practical application.

Wheeler

jlw
04-21-2011, 11:46 AM
http://www.shootrite.org/courses/Handgun/Handgun.html

Shootrite run by Tiger Mckee (Thunder Ranch protege) has some revolver specific training courses.

--
I took the IDPA safety officer course from Claude Werner. I'd readily jump into a revolver class taught by him. He was lead instructor at the Rogers Shooting School for five years.

Mitchell, Esq.
04-21-2011, 01:55 PM
DeBethencourt's classes are great.

Wheeler
04-21-2011, 07:14 PM
FWIW, I recently found out that Thunder Ranch is now teaching Defensive Revolver classes. Clint has frequently recommended the large-bore revolver for defense and should give a good program with it.

Based on what I've seen from the videos and tv shows Clint's revolver manipulation skills are severely lacking. I hope his instructors are better than he is.

Wheeler

David Armstrong
04-22-2011, 10:52 AM
Based on what I've seen from the videos and tv shows Clint's revolver manipulation skills are severely lacking. I hope his instructors are better than he is.

Wheeler
Ummm...OK.:rolleyes:
I know Clint handles the wheelgun in more of a practical/tactical manner than a competition/range manner, but I'm not sure that qualifies as severely lacking in skills. YMMV.

Jay Cunningham
04-22-2011, 10:58 AM
We're not going to turn this into an instructor-bashing thread. We can also do without the coy innuendo. If you have something to say from first-hand experience, just say it. If it's my-guru-vs.-your-guru BS, then just skip it.

Mitchell, Esq.
04-22-2011, 11:33 AM
This is speaking as a person who's taken 1 class with a revolver and 2 classes for handugns:

A revolver is not, compared to a semi-auto, an efficient system in terms of body mechanics.

Even very smooth, efficient manipulations of a revolver inherently has more movement than a pistol does.

Looking at it from the point of view of a pistol shooter, revolvers manipulations are not going to look fast, clean or anything of the sort.

That doesn't mean any particular methodology is bad or ineffective or inefficient, because some instructors methods sacrifice efficiency of movement for security while manipulating individual rounds or hard (relatively) to align speed loaders (compared to magazines.

It just means that a revolver is a less efficient system than a pistol, and we shouldn't compare them 1:1 on such grounds.

Wheeler
04-22-2011, 08:32 PM
Ummm...OK.:rolleyes:
I know Clint handles the wheelgun in more of a practical/tactical manner than a competition/range manner, but I'm not sure that qualifies as severely lacking in skills. YMMV.

I'm looking at it from a practical/tactical viewpoint, not a competitive viewpoint. When I watch videos in which reloads are bobbled, grip is constantly adjusted, I question that.


Jay Cunningham
We're not going to turn this into an instructor-bashing thread. We can also do without the coy innuendo. If you have something to say from first-hand experience, just say it. If it's my-guru-vs.-your-guru BS, then just skip it.

I was pretty blunt, I could have phrased that better. While I previously extolled the virtues of another instructor in this thread, I didn't compare the two, nor do I intend to. If that's what you were referring to. Regardless, I apologize for stating it the way I did. I'll refrain from comment on the matter from this point forward.

Wheeler

TCinVA
04-30-2011, 10:30 AM
I've done a little bit of time with Bethencourt and from what I've seen he understands all the old school revolver lessons well. There was a lot of specialized knowledge about the revolver that developed over decades of using them for serious social purposes that has now largely been lost. There aren't a whole lot of guys out there who knew all of those crucial little bits of information about fighting with a wheel gun left with us anymore.

Michael knows a lot of that stuff and is good at passing it on.

MikeO
05-05-2011, 12:38 PM
I'm still using what I learned from vets w the DPD (Detroit PD), USMS, and FPS (Federal Protective Service) back in the 70s. It was, and still is, way more practical than some think it was.

Feelin' vintage... I remember "speed" loading from drop boxes. I use them high tech speed strips/loader thingies w my Ruger Speed Sixes now.

Wheeler
05-05-2011, 06:31 PM
I'm still using what I learned from vets w the DPD (Detroit PD), USMS, and FPS (Federal Protective Service) back in the 70s. It was, and still is, way more practical than some think it was.

Feelin' vintage... I remember "speed" loading from drop boxes. I use them high tech speed strips/loader thingies w my Ruger Speed Sixes now.

Hey MikeO,

I've tried both. I'm horrible with the drop boxes but feel pretty good about the speed strips. Both are a lot more concealable than speedloaders (those are those new fangled round things that look like a cylinder with the cartridges poking out.) :) I modified my drop boxes to hold speed strips, and will sometimes carry my reloads there rather than in a pocket, with the drop box flipped over so the flap is on top. Still not as fast as a speedloader but a lot faster than trying to extract from a pocket.

Wheeler

jetfire
05-05-2011, 07:08 PM
I have to agree with the earlier posts about how a revolver is not as easily manipulated in a fluid fashion as a semi-auto pistol, especially when you're dealing with things like reloads. I've got a ton of data on my revolver reloads for a speedloader gun vs. reloading a semi-automatic pistol.

For example, from an open ICORE Classic rig with my 686 and Comp-IIIs, a blazing fast reload is anything under 2.5 seconds. I have once or twice gotten under 2 seconds with a revo reload, and those were those moments when you finish the reload and think to yourself "holy shit that was fast".

Compare that to reloading a 1911 without a magwell, where a "slow" reload from concealment is 2.5 seconds, and if I'm not under 2 seconds consistently on my reloads I'm disappointed with my performance. Change that to a double stack gun or a 1911 with a large magwell and I'm upset if I'm not consistently around 1.75/1.8 on my reloads.

The point I think i'm getting around to is that shooting a revolver makes you a stud. :)

Wheeler
05-05-2011, 08:22 PM
I have to agree with the earlier posts about how a revolver is not as easily manipulated in a fluid fashion as a semi-auto pistol, especially when you're dealing with things like reloads. I've got a ton of data on my revolver reloads for a speedloader gun vs. reloading a semi-automatic pistol.

For example, from an open ICORE Classic rig with my 686 and Comp-IIIs, a blazing fast reload is anything under 2.5 seconds. I have once or twice gotten under 2 seconds with a revo reload, and those were those moments when you finish the reload and think to yourself "holy shit that was fast".

Compare that to reloading a 1911 without a magwell, where a "slow" reload from concealment is 2.5 seconds, and if I'm not under 2 seconds consistently on my reloads I'm disappointed with my performance. Change that to a double stack gun or a 1911 with a large magwell and I'm upset if I'm not consistently around 1.75/1.8 on my reloads.

The point I think i'm getting around to is that shooting a revolver makes you a stud. :)

This might be a perception thing rather than a zen thing but, it seems to me that when I was blazingly fast on reloads, according to the timer that everything seemed to slow down. I don't spend enough time on the BE forums to really understand the zen concept, so is it just perception or something different?

Wheeler

jetfire
05-06-2011, 02:03 PM
Brian talks a lot about "seeing what you need to see"; as I've practiced reloads and other mechanical aspects of shooting, I've begun to develop a sense for what "feels" fast. Back when I started shooting, I thought stuff "felt" fast when I did everything really quickly, regardless of how smooth things happened. That wasn't fast, that just me waving my arms in a hurry and getting lucky sometimes.

Now, something that "feels" fast will usually feel that way because I have very little wasted motion, the task happens without me thinking "it's time to do task x" and when the task is completed I'm almost surprised that it's all over.

Using reloads as an example again, I was practicing for an IDPA match with my Sig P250 doing 1-r-2 drills from the head box of the the PT target to the 8 inch circle. I had a 1.68 run from concealment that had all of the attributes listed above - instead of thinking "I'm at slidelock time to reload" I just reloaded the gun and fired the next two shots without ever actually thinking about reloading the gun. That kind of stuff feels fast.

Sherman A. House DDS
05-09-2011, 01:31 PM
I can personally attest to the quality and breadth of knowledge of Tom Givens, of Rangemaster (Memphis TN) with revolver skills. My wife and I took a class from him last Summer, and it was excellent. Highly recommended.

Wheeler
05-09-2011, 06:34 PM
Brian talks a lot about "seeing what you need to see"; as I've practiced reloads and other mechanical aspects of shooting, I've begun to develop a sense for what "feels" fast. Back when I started shooting, I thought stuff "felt" fast when I did everything really quickly, regardless of how smooth things happened. That wasn't fast, that just me waving my arms in a hurry and getting lucky sometimes.

Now, something that "feels" fast will usually feel that way because I have very little wasted motion, the task happens without me thinking "it's time to do task x" and when the task is completed I'm almost surprised that it's all over.

Using reloads as an example again, I was practicing for an IDPA match with my Sig P250 doing 1-r-2 drills from the head box of the the PT target to the 8 inch circle. I had a 1.68 run from concealment that had all of the attributes listed above - instead of thinking "I'm at slidelock time to reload" I just reloaded the gun and fired the next two shots without ever actually thinking about reloading the gun. That kind of stuff feels fast.

That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the feedback.