School Shooting in Newton, CT-Where's Mitchell Esq??

[BaiHu]

http://gma.yahoo.com/breaking-conn-school-district-locked-down-shooting-report-151955384--abc-news-topstories.html

[LHS]

http://gma.yahoo.com/breaking-conn-school-district-locked-down-shooting-report-151955384--abc-news-topstories.html

Jesus Christ, I'm going to be sick. What kind of maniac shoots up a kindergarten class?!

[LOKNLOD]

Holy shit. Wow.

We won't recover well from this... I don't believe the American people can handle seeing this happen here.

[Tamara]

Did you shoot somebody, too? No? Doesn't matter.

"You're Billy the Kid too (http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB10001424127887324478304578171623040640006-lMyQjAxMTAyMDEwMjExNDIyWj.html?mod=wsj_valetbottom _email), you know. You all are..."

[landsharkleather]

Anyone know what type of gun laws they have in Conn.? Dollars to donuts says they are very strict. I wonder then how something like this could happen if its illegal???:confused:

[Erik]

Among other things, it's illegal to bring a firearm onto school grounds in Connecticut. It's also illegal to have certain types of guns that are called out by name and any rifle with more than three evil features (e.g., collapsible stock, flash hider, etc.). Somebody must not have known the laws here.

[JConn]

I can't take this. I don't even have the proper reaction to stuff like this anymore. I just freak out about the banners taking advantage of this. I mean holy he'll an elementary school. What type of person could do that. At first I thought it was terrorist related, but probably not.

[BaiHu]

One of the latest updates:

http://connecticut.cbslocal.com/2012/12/14/school-shooting-leaves-multiple-injured/

Apparently a father of a student.

[NETim]

Until aholes like this come to the general understanding that return fire is quite likely, this nonsense isn't going to stop.

By tomorrow night, this dead bastard will be more famous than Elvis.

And that notoriety will inspire more.

[rsa-otc]

Was going shooting this afternoon, lost all interest. Father of one of the students? How sick do you have to be?

[JConn]

Psychopathic piece of s***

[LittleLebowski]

I need to go hug my kids. I'm dead certain that anyone on this forum would have done something good at this scene as it transpired.

[CCT125US]

My heart goes out to the families. The shooter will find himself in the deepest pits of hell. I will hold onto my 6 and 4 year old a little longer tonight.

[Chemsoldier]

Was going shooting this afternoon, lost all interest.

I dont blame you. FWIW I had the opposite reaction. I am going this afternoon when I had not originally planned to.

[Kyle Reese]

I'm at a loss for words at this point. My thoughts are with the families of those children today.

[YVK]

At first, I was hoping no kids were injured.
Then I was hoping this was an external terrorism a'la Beslan.
Now I am just sitting here nauseated and speechless. There are things in life the brain can't comprehend, and this is one of them.
In all honesty, if somebody started to argue the AWB with me right now, I wouldn't have the mental strength and fortitude to defend against it, I am that deflated.
Let's have our collective moment of silence.

[NickA]

I need to go hug my kids. I'm dead certain that anyone on this forum would have done something good at this scene as it transpired.

Amen to that. Prayers to those poor kids and their families.
My daughter's school has a volunteer program for dads, uncles, whoever to come help out and be role models. They also make the point that it's added security for the school, but the whole time I'm thinking "You know, if you really wanted security I'd be able to carry on campus."
I'm definitely going to participate in the program, but if something like this were to go down... damn. I guess they'd find me shot, but it wouldn't be in the back, and I'd be cursing stupid laws right up to the end.

[Erik]

I need to go hug my kids. I'm dead certain that anyone on this forum would have done something good at this scene as it transpired.

I am absolutely certain you are correct. However, this:


Among other things, it's illegal to bring a firearm onto school grounds in Connecticut.

puts those of us on the forum at something of a disadvantage as compared to someone who has it in him/her to be a school shooter.

[BaiHu]

Update:

Shooter killed dad in NJ and then killed his mom, a teacher in the school, up in CT.

[Dave J]

I am sooooooo comfortable knowing that my kids are protected by the "No Guns Allowed" sign outside their elementary school.

[/sarcasm]

If the administrators and politicians ever get a clue, I'd gladly sponsor some teachers' attendance at a reputable pistol course.

[LOKNLOD]

At first, I was hoping no kids were injured.
Then I was hoping this was an external terrorism a'la Beslan.
Now I am just sitting here nauseated and speechless. There are things in life the brain can't comprehend, and this is one of them.
In all honesty, if somebody started to argue the AWB with me right now, I wouldn't have the mental strength and fortitude to defend against it, I am that deflated.
Let's have our collective moment of silence.

My feelings almost exactly.

[Suvorov]

I am literally nauseated at the thought.

I attended a lecture by David Grossman a couple weeks ago. Much of the lecture was on school shootings. The basic jist was that this type of thing is only going to keep happening and get worse.

I wish he was wrong.... :(

I don't care what kind of suffering this kid had that drove him to do this. Anyone who intentionally kills Kindergarteners is going strait to Hell if there is any justice in this universe.

[LittleLebowski]

I am absolutely certain you are correct. However, this:
puts those of us on the forum at something of a disadvantage as compared to someone who has it in him/her to be a school shooter.

Not my point. I'm certain folks on here would react a bit more aggressively, gun or no gun.

[breakingtime91]

My prayers to the families of the victims.

[TGS]

Not my point. I'm certain folks on here would react a bit more aggressively, gun or no gun.

At the same time, the overwhelming "hive mind" mentality of this forum would suggest that grabbing your kid, jumping out the window, and leaving everyone else to their own fate would be the correct course of action.

That's certainly what has been the opinion when we've discussed "what would you do" in the past. Secure your party, leave, call 911. No "heroics", no intervening on someones behalf because helping only brings its own slew of troubles, ect.

[LittleLebowski]

Guess I missed those posts from the hive mind.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[ToddG]

I think it's too complicated an issue to say there's a simple, correct plan.

We don't have kids, but I would think of it as we're in an office building or the mall or whatever. Random shooting begins and innocent people are dying. DO I SAVE MY WIFE OR SAVE THE DAY?

Where is the shooting coming from?
How "safe" is my wife where she is?
Is she capable of getting somewhere safer on her own?

I'm not going to increase the risk to her for strangers. Sorry. Call me whatever names you want, but she comes first. If I think that she can run in the opposite direction just as fast (or faster) without me and get safe, then doing something more aggressive becomes an option. If I think that she's trapped and going on the offense gives her the best chance, that's what I'd do. But if protecting her while we bug out gives her the best chance of escaping unscathed, then that's Plan A, and I'm genuinely sorry that the other people present aren't capable of defending themselves as well.

[bdcheung]

At the same time, the overwhelming "hive mind" mentality of this forum would suggest that grabbing your kid, jumping out the window, and leaving everyone else to their own fate would be the correct course of action.

I'm not going to look for trouble. My responsibility is to my family first, and I'm not keen on risking my own life unnecessarily.

[bdcheung]

This sentiment, expressed by someone else, more eloquently states my feelings right now than I can:


Gun control is conceivably the last line of defense in situations like this. I know that's the knee-jerk reaction to this type of news, but it's a superficial band-aid to the underlying problem. If you wanted to choose a regulation that had more of an impact in the prevention of fucked up shootings like this, mental health is where it starts. Dr. Drew's has gone off about this for awhile. The first line of defense is teachers, parents, and doctors who identify someone like a Loughner or a Holmes. They need recourse to be able to get people like this on their meds. We can put bracelets on alcoholics and breathalyzers in cars that will dial-up the cops on a failed test to keep people off booze, but we can't implement a similar technology to keep people on their meds? Lots of people buy guns and don't immediately go out and shoot kids. Lots of mentally ill people think about doing fucked up shit. The preamble to shootings like this happen because someone fell through the cracks in a currently very powerless mental health system in America. If you wanted to get ahead of the curve and prevent shit like this, that's where you start.

[TGS]

Guess I missed those posts from the hive mind.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

Todd and bdcheung's post are a pretty good summary of what the overwhelming majority of opinions seem to be when these (as Todd excellently put it) "Save my wife or save the day" situations/questions come up.


I think it's too complicated an issue to say there's a simple, correct plan.

We don't have kids, but I would think of it as we're in an office building or the mall or whatever. Random shooting begins and innocent people are dying. DO I SAVE MY WIFE OR SAVE THE DAY?

Where is the shooting coming from?
How "safe" is my wife where she is?
Is she capable of getting somewhere safer on her own?

I'm not going to increase the risk to her for strangers. Sorry. Call me whatever names you want, but she comes first. If I think that she can run in the opposite direction just as fast (or faster) without me and get safe, then doing something more aggressive becomes an option. If I think that she's trapped and going on the offense gives her the best chance, that's what I'd do. But if protecting her while we bug out gives her the best chance of escaping unscathed, then that's Plan A, and I'm genuinely sorry that the other people present aren't capable of defending themselves as well.


I'm not going to look for trouble. My responsibility is to my family first, and I'm not keen on risking my own life unnecessarily.

[ToddG]

"Gun control is conceivably the last line of defense in situations like this. I know that's the knee-jerk reaction to this type of news, but it's a superficial band-aid to the underlying problem."


It's not even that.

Telling someone that it's illegal to own a gun in hopes that it will prevent him from illegally bringing it to a school and illegally massacring children is the height of stupidity.

"Man, I was going to go kill some people today, but I don't want to get in trouble for having a gun... you can go to prison for that!" Stupid.

You (generic you, not anyone here) want to make it harder for things like today's tragedy to happen again? You need to do more than ban. You need to confiscate. You need to get every weapon capable of killing another human being out of the hands of every person in the country. Even that wouldn't be a 100% guarantee but I'll grant you it would be a lot closer. So if you want to prevent things like today, be honest and demand confiscation. Don't hide behind these tiny incremental steps that are more about political victory than actually making anyone safer. If you can't be honest and shout out your true intention, then do us all a favor and STFU.

[Suvorov]

At the same time, the overwhelming "hive mind" mentality of this forum would suggest that grabbing your kid, jumping out the window, and leaving everyone else to their own fate would be the correct course of action.

That's certainly what has been the opinion when we've discussed "what would you do" in the past. Secure your party, leave, call 911. No "heroics", no intervening on someones behalf because helping only brings its own slew of troubles, ect.

I understand the point you are trying to make and have to admit the "hive mind" makes sense the the case of a Quickie Mart robbery, but I think there is a FUNDAMENTAL difference when little kids are involved. I doubt there is anyone on this Forum that could live with themselves if they popped smoke after securing their own when they could have prevented more Kindergarteners from dying.

It probably would be a death sentence at that point, but better to go down in the fight against the gunman or a blue on blue with responding cops, than to go at the end of your own gun years later.

[Erik]

Not my point. I'm certain folks on here would react a bit more aggressively, gun or no gun.

I understood your point, which doesn't detract from mine.

[JodyH]

My emotions are very chaotic right now.
This is bad.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

[JHC]

Until aholes like this come to the general understanding that return fire is quite likely, this nonsense isn't going to stop.

.

How pathetic is a species that cannot evolve to have a GD plan besides duck and cover after so many of these?

[JDM]

I understand the point you are trying to make and have to admit the "hive mind" makes sense the the case of a Quickie Mart robbery, but I think there is a FUNDAMENTAL difference when little kids are involved. I doubt there is anyone on this Forum that could live with themselves if they popped smoke after securing their own when they could have prevented more Kindergarteners from dying.

It probably would be a death sentence at that point, but better to go down in the fight against the gunman or a blue on blue with responding cops, than to go at the end of your own gun years later.

QFT.

[BaiHu]

The reality of the gun control issue just came to us today in 2 stark examples from 2 sides of the planet.

China: incredibly restrictive country couldn't prevent 22 being killed at a school KNIFING!

CT USA: incredibly restrictive school protocol couldn't prevent 27 killed in a school shooting.

Where would you like to live?

My heart goes out to all of those in pain, but emotion clouds the mind of logical thought in most which is why single minded focus and critical thinking are such prized skills in society.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[ToddG]

I doubt there is anyone on this Forum that could live with themselves if they popped smoke after securing their own when they could have prevented more Kindergarteners from dying.

I think this is a disconnect between what one side is saying and the other.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're basically saying instead of A (save family) or B (save everyone else), first you'd do A, then once you were confident A had been completed you'd move on to B.

Since I think of these things as being potentially more widespread than just one random looney, I don't know when/if I'd feel like A (saving my wife) was really successful enough that I'd be willing to leave her and go back. But yeah, if she was miraculously suddenly in a place where I absolutely knew she wouldn't be in danger any more, once she was safe I agree that trying to solve the problem is a far better solution than standing around wringing one's hands and hoping "someone does something."

[peterb]

This sentiment, expressed by someone else, more eloquently states my feelings right now than I can:

"...They need recourse to be able to get people like this on their meds. We can put bracelets on alcoholics and breathalyzers in cars that will dial-up the cops on a failed test to keep people off booze, but we can't implement a similar technology to keep people on their meds?"

And there have been long debates about the wisdom of forced treatment for perceived mental health problems, especially if government entities are making the decisions about who needs to be treated, and how. How do you reliably identify "people like this" without involving the odd-but-harmless?

No easy answers.

[JHC]

At the same time, the overwhelming "hive mind" mentality of this forum would suggest that grabbing your kid, jumping out the window, and leaving everyone else to their own fate would be the correct course of action.

That's certainly what has been the opinion when we've discussed "what would you do" in the past. Secure your party, leave, call 911. No "heroics", no intervening on someones behalf because helping only brings its own slew of troubles, ect.

I was never at a school where my kids were without a major plan. It was not this plan. But we don't need to re-litigate that.

Folks never learn. So much anguish, Christmas just around the corner. My God.

[bdcheung]

The reality of the gun control issue just came to us today in 2 stark examples from 2 sides of the planet.

China: incredibly restrictive country couldn't prevent 22 being killed at a school KNIFING!

CT USA: incredibly restrictive school protocol couldn't prevent 27 killed in a school shooting.

Where would you like to live?

My heart goes out to all of those in pain, but emotion clouds the mind of logical thought in most which is why single minded focus and critical thinking are such prized skills in society.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

The people in China didn't die.

[Matt O]

China: incredibly restrictive country couldn't prevent 22 being killed at a school KNIFING!

I get what you're trying to say, but that's not probably the best example. None of the 22 students were killed and none are listed in critical condition according to the Chinese news articles I have seen.

[Savage Hands]

Not my point. I'm certain folks on here would react a bit more aggressively, gun or no gun.



Agreed!

[BaiHu]

Sadly, the logical answer is making these "soft target" politically correct signs that "we don't allow drugs and guns on school premises because we're better than that" into "don't come in here unless you want to die because 1 out of every 3 school personnel could be carrying a CCW."

Harder targets cause deferral. Like "the club" on a car. If the one next to it doesn't have "the club", then guess which one is getting jacked.

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[BaiHu]

The people in China didn't die.


I get what you're trying to say, but that's not probably the best example. None of the 22 students were killed and none are listed in critical condition according to the Chinese news articles I have seen.

My apologies. I'm on the train and quoting from memory. This morning it wasn't clear to me when I read an earlier account.



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[TGS]

Something to think about:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PezlFNTGWv4

[JHC]

Something to think about:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PezlFNTGWv4

That was brilliant.

Our society lacks the discipline or the malevolence to A. ignore his name and B. feed his body to crows.

[Shellback]

puts those of us on the forum at something of a disadvantage as compared to someone who has it in him/her to be a school shooter.

And it makes others refuse to comply with victim disarmament laws. <-- Not meant in an antagonistic way.

[TGS]

My apologies. I'm on the train and quoting from memory. This morning it wasn't clear to me when I read an earlier account.



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FWIW, I had read a news article just minutes before you posted this stating that the children in China were killed.

LOTS of bad gouge going around in mass media, these days.

[NickA]

I understand the point you are trying to make and have to admit the "hive mind" makes sense the the case of a Quickie Mart robbery, but I think there is a FUNDAMENTAL difference when little kids are involved. I doubt there is anyone on this Forum that could live with themselves if they popped smoke after securing their own when they could have prevented more Kindergarteners from dying.

That fundamental difference is that at the mall or the convenience store, most of the people around you had the same chance to prepare themselves for their own defense that you did, but they chose not to do so. That's not true at a school. If I were king teachers would be prepared and armed for events like these, but I'm not. As it is, by their very nature schools are full of those that we have an absolute duty to protect at all costs, because they are unable to do it themselves. In fact it's one of the only situations I can think of that's so unambiguous I'd have no hesitation engaging the threat. If possible I'd secure my own child first or fight my way to her, but no way I'd leave until the threat was over.
TLDR version: it's different with kids, because it is. If someone doesn't understand that I can't help them.
But maybe I'm just out of my mind because my daughter is at kindergarten right now, and I can't wait to hold her.

[BaiHu]

Excellent reminder TGS!

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[Tamara]

You (generic you, not anyone here) want to make it harder for things like today's tragedy to happen again? You need to do more than ban. You need to confiscate. You need to get every weapon capable of killing another human being out of the hands of every person in the country.

If they can't get guns, they might really kill a lot of people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_Disaster).

[Kyle Reese]

That was brilliant.

Our society lacks the discipline or the malevolence to A. ignore his name and B. feed his body to crows.

Agreed 100%.

[Shellback]

"We're going to have to come together and take meaningful action to prevent more tragedies like this, regardless of the politics," Obama said during a brief address from the White House, where he repeatedly wiped away tears.

[JodyH]

I would enter a elementary school or day care with zero hesitation to stop an active shooter.
Even if that meant leaving my wife in a vulnerable position.
If I was with my child I'd secure him as best I could and then go on the hunt.
If it was his school I wouldn't even try to find him first, I would go to the gunfire.
Some things are worth the risk.

[bdcheung]

I would enter a elementary school or day care with zero hesitation to stop an active shooter.
Even if that meant leaving my wife in a vulnerable position.
If I was with my child I'd secure him as best I could and then go on the hunt.
Some things are worth the risk.

That's fine. But I hope you wouldn't negatively judge those who do the math differently.

[NETim]

"...They need recourse to be able to get people like this on their meds. We can put bracelets on alcoholics and breathalyzers in cars that will dial-up the cops on a failed test to keep people off booze, but we can't implement a similar technology to keep people on their meds?"

And there have been long debates about the wisdom of forced treatment for perceived mental health problems, especially if government entities are making the decisions about who needs to be treated, and how. How do you reliably identify "people like this" without involving the odd-but-harmless?No easy answers.

Which is the crux of the issue. The anti's tell me they want to keep guns out of the hands of the crazies. Well, so do I. But I ask them, repeatedly, does a test exist that accurately and objectively identifies "crazy"?

I sure as hell don't want some .gov doctor picking and choosing who is and who's not, crazy, agendas being what they are and all that.

"No matter who you are or what you believe, you have to understand that some day the worst control-freaks among your bitterest enemies will control the federal government, and you better have restored effective, working constitutional limitations on that government before that time arrives." -- Rick Gaber

[John Ralston]

Not my point. I'm certain folks on here would react a bit more aggressively, gun or no gun.

EXACTLY...take him out or die trying. Wouldn't have made a difference to me if I had my HK or if it was in the truck...I wouldn't have stood by and hoped for a good outcome.

[JodyH]

That's fine. But I hope you wouldn't negatively judge those who do the math differently.
Nope.
There are many situations where I would be the guy hiding, evacuating or dialing 911, but this just happens to be one of my personal trigger situations.

[John Ralston]

That's fine. But I hope you wouldn't negatively judge those who do the math differently.

I don't think anyone here would, but...I think most of society has lost the will to fight. If a guy was cruising through a hallway or office shooting people, hiding behind a desk isn't a great survival tactic. Get up and moving and make something happen...JMO

[Savage Hands]

That fundamental difference is that at the mall or the convenience store, most of the people around you had the same chance to prepare themselves for their own defense that you did, but they chose not to do so. That's not true at a school. If I were king teachers would be prepared and armed for events like these, but I'm not. As it is, by their very nature schools are full of those that we have an absolute duty to protect at all costs, because they are unable to do it themselves. In fact it's one of the only situations I can think of that's so unambiguous I'd have no hesitation engaging the threat. If possible I'd secure my own child first or fight my way to her, but no way I'd leave until the threat was over.
TLDR version: it's different with kids, because it is. If someone doesn't understand that I can't help them.
But maybe I'm just out of my mind because my daughter is at kindergarten right now, and I can't wait to hold her.



I would enter a elementary school or day care with zero hesitation to stop an active shooter.
Even if that meant leaving my wife in a vulnerable position.
If I was with my child I'd secure him as best I could and then go on the hunt.
If it was his school I wouldn't even try to find him first, I would go to the gunfire.
Some things are worth the risk.




I agree here! Some non-parents may not and that's somewhat understandable.

[LittleLebowski]

Todd and bdcheung's post are a pretty good summary of what the overwhelming majority of opinions seem to be when these (as Todd excellently put it) "Save my wife or save the day" situations/questions come up.

That's not my impression after reading this updated thread.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

[LOKNLOD]

You (generic you, not anyone here) want to make it harder for things like today's tragedy to happen again? You need to do more than ban. You need to confiscate. You need to get every weapon capable of killing another human being out of the hands of every person in the country. Even that wouldn't be a 100% guarantee but I'll grant you it would be a lot closer. So if you want to prevent things like today, be honest and demand confiscation. Don't hide behind these tiny incremental steps that are more about political victory than actually making anyone safer. If you can't be honest and shout out your true intention, then do us all a favor and STFU.

Hey, fascism works sometimes. If people want to be safe, they can be made safe....

[will_1400]

Some questions: why didn't the teachers get their students out of there? I can understand being afraid, but hunkering down isn't a real solution (as Columbine proved). Second: lots sharp and/or heavy blunt objects and a lot of blind spots to ambush out of so why not go that route if escape isn't happening? (I know, I know, MMQB here.)

[Mr_White]

why didn't the teachers get their students out of there? I can understand being afraid, but hunkering down isn't a real solution (as Columbine proved).

The other night one of my students who is a professor at a college here said that he was very uncomfortable with their policy of lockdown as a response to an active shooter. I think it's pretty much the standard practice in all schools these days. Maybe someone with more knowledge of typical school policies can comment.

[TGS]

Some questions: why didn't the teachers get their students out of there? I can understand being afraid, but hunkering down isn't a real solution (as Columbine proved). Second: lots sharp and/or heavy blunt objects and a lot of blind spots to ambush out of so why not go that route if escape isn't happening? (I know, I know, MMQB here.)

The usual SOP at a school for a shooting incident is to lock the doors, windows, close all blinds, ect.

Walking around means a greater chance of being shot. In workplace/school violence, most shooters were found to have simply moved on when they tried to open a door but found it locked.

ETA:
Note: This training film has dramatized violence. Do not watch it if you find yourself especially disturbed from today's tragic events.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VcSwejU2D0

[JM Campbell]

I am not a parent, I am a uncle.

I believe my heart and mind will all ways compel me to action in defense of my family, it's so hard to say much less know what anyone of us would do in this situation.

This is why we train, to prepare for things that might come in the event we are forced into them, to take action that you deem to fit your situation and events/risks that you are willing to undertake or sacrifice.

I pray for the children, their families and the school staff that lost their lives.

This is a time to reflect on what we do everyday that keeps us in the fight if it comes and how to finish the fight.

[Suvorov]

Some questions: why didn't the teachers get their students out of there? I can understand being afraid, but hunkering down isn't a real solution (as Columbine proved). Second: lots sharp and/or heavy blunt objects and a lot of blind spots to ambush out of so why not go that route if escape isn't happening? (I know, I know, MMQB here.)

You might be Monday Morning Quarterbacking here, but at least you have some idea how the game of football is played.

While there are always exceptions, your average female public school, especially Kindergarten teachers does not have the beginning of an understanding how the "game" is played. The best you can hope from most of them, is that they follow their school policy and that it is a sound policy driven by people that understand how the evil man operates and not by a school administration looking to minimize legal vulnerability.

You are correct, there are a lot of things in a class room that could be used with correct tactics to give the teacher a fighting chance, but they don't know what they don't know and the mindset is not there.

11 SEP 2001 marked a moment when there was a fundamental change in how aircrews did their business. This resulted in a change in SOPs, the arming of volunteer pilots, increased armed LE presence on flights, self defense training for cabin crews, and the general understanding that by virtue of wearing an airline uniform (or simply buying a ticket from A-B), you may have to John Wayne up and be that hero. I think it is time that the education system undergoes a similar paradigm shift.

[TGS]

I think it is time that the education system undergoes a similar paradigm shift.

That would truly be a paradigm shift. After all, we're talking of a system that punishes kids for defending themselves when attacked.

A good start if the school doesn't have funds/needs for full-time police officers would be a couple staff/faculty trained for active shooter events, similar to the FFDO program you mentioned with airlines.

Quick question: How many of you guys have police in your school systems? Whether it's full-time cops for security, or a sheriff's deputy who is assigned to the school as the guidance counselor (I have a friend in this capacity).

[will_1400]

That would truly be a paradigm shift. After all, we're talking of a system that punishes kids for defending themselves when attacked.

A good start if the school doesn't have funds/needs for full-time police officers would be a couple staff/faculty trained for active shooter events, similar to the FFDO program you mentioned with airlines.

Quick question: How many of you guys have police in your school systems? Whether it's full-time cops for security, or a sheriff's deputy who is assigned to the school as the guidance counselor (I have a friend in this capacity).

We had a single school liaison officer at both the middle school and high school I went to, but that's it. Some of the faculty were CCW holders, but of course, weren't armed during school hours.

[Crawls]

I understand the point you are trying to make and have to admit the "hive mind" makes sense the the case of a Quickie Mart robbery, but I think there is a FUNDAMENTAL difference when little kids are involved. I doubt there is anyone on this Forum that could live with themselves if they popped smoke after securing their own when they could have prevented more Kindergarteners from dying.

It probably would be a death sentence at that point, but better to go down in the fight against the gunman or a blue on blue with responding cops, than to go at the end of your own gun years later.

Totally concur. Well said.

[Kyle Reese]

I think it is time that the education system undergoes a similar paradigm shift.

Call me cynical, but I doubt even today's atrocity in CT will be the catalyst for said paradigm shift. It would entail a serious, frank and candid analysis of doctrine, legal considerations and other factors related to security in our schools. It would also mean that educators would bear some responsibility for the physical safety and well being of their pupils, meaning that they would have to do something; IE possibly engage attackers with physical force. Many people want easy answers and instant oatmeal solutions.

[Shellback]

Reports now saying he was autistic with a personality disorder.

[will_1400]

Reports now saying he was autistic with a personality disorder.

Translated for the gun-grabbers: "this guy had issues and clearly didn't know what he was doing, thus we need to eliminate all guns".:rolleyes:

[Dagga Boy]

I have been employed by the very wealthy to protect their children at school from this kind of coward, and would do it for free for my kids school if allowed. These kind of cowards are attracted to the sheep. The kind that only go where they think they can perform their evil without the chance of actually running into a obstacle. I carry a duty size pistol daily to give me the best chance I can to terminate something like this. I would lay down my life in a second to confront and kill one of these evil piles of shit. I am not trying to talk tough, as most people have not trained to confront evil or are not wired to do it. We need to start taking those people experienced in dealing with predatory animals when they leave L/E, corrections, and military combat vets and put them to work REALLY protecting what is important to us. Not minimally paid security guards with little training, but serious people with real skills and on-going training for dealing with a society that finds the protection of the privacy of psychopaths, drug abusers, and their ilk as more important than anything else. The Israeli's stopped the targeting of schools by getting serious with protecting them from within with the staff.

We are so quick to want to ban an object, but we won't put the people in the data base most likely to prevent them from buying a firearm. Want a medical Marijuana card, into the data base. You are nuts, doctor puts you into the data base. Criminals....lets have our D/A's start thinking about the results of plea bargaining violent people to crimes where they can still legally own a firearm.

[TGS]

We need to start taking those people experienced in dealing with predatory animals when they leave L/E, corrections, and military combat vets and put them to work REALLY protecting what is important to us.

Funny you mention that......one of the news channels today invariably went into returning combat vets with PTSD and how they're a danger to society.

F'ing ridiculous. Some days I wonder what it would be like to be Dick Proenneke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Proenneke) instead of putting up with main-stream society and where its heading.

[G60]

It's just become silly season for blaming everyone but the perpetrator: (the spamming of Mass Effect's FB page are because a random Ryan Lanza, originally misidentified as the shooter liked Mass Effect on FB)
1201

1202

[RoyGBiv]

Call me cynical, but I doubt even today's atrocity in CT will be the catalyst for said paradigm shift.
Interesting timing that just today the state of Michigan passed a bill (not yet signed by Gov. Snyder, who is said to be shuffling his feet on it) to remove almost all "places not permitted" for CC holders.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/Bill-expanding-concealed-carry-access-passed-by-Michigan-Legislature/-/1719418/17774324/-/9sha88/-/index.html

Similar lessening of CC restrictions are being talked about for the 2013 legislative session in TX... No bills filed formally as of today, but I know of at least one "insider" who tells me the bill is written and sitting with a Senator. TX HB 47 would reduce the training requirement for TX CHL.

I believe (well, I want to believe) that this CT incident will bring more weight to bear to reduce restrictions on CC, at least here in TX.

[Shellback]

Translated for the gun-grabbers: "this guy had issues and clearly didn't know what he was doing, thus we need to eliminate all guns".:rolleyes:

Emotional drivel by the Facebook crowds. Here's source, lots more out there. http://nation.foxnews.com/ct-school-shooting/2012/12/14/abc-news-shooter-autistic-had-personality-disorder

[JHC]

I would enter a elementary school or day care with zero hesitation to stop an active shooter.
Even if that meant leaving my wife in a vulnerable position.
If I was with my child I'd secure him as best I could and then go on the hunt.
If it was his school I wouldn't even try to find him first, I would go to the gunfire.
Some things are worth the risk.

+1

[LittleLebowski]

Emotional drivel by the Facebook crowds. Here's source, lots more out there. http://nation.foxnews.com/ct-school-shooting/2012/12/14/abc-news-shooter-autistic-had-personality-disorder

NEVER read the comments.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

[ToddG]

Maybe I'm naive, but I really don't see a major change in gun laws nationwide as a result of this. Yes there will be debate. Yes, there will be mass media blather. Yes, there will be morons all over Facepage and Tweeter. But we're a fast food nation and by the time this comes around to the next legislative season, there will be new unrelated outrages to focus on or, more likely, some shiny new bauble of a boy/girl on Reality TV Show #521 that will be much more interesting for them to talk about.

The Brady Bunch is still using Columbine as a stick to beat people with, and that's obviously not worked well.

Wouldn't it be awesome if both the pro- and anti-gun sides could agree that maybe just this once we'd care more about the victims and their families than the political footholds that might be gained or lost by capitalizing on the tragedy?

[Dagga Boy]

One of the things I do agree with Grossman on is that many of today's video games are simply turning into killing simulators that desensitize people to violence and let them get a ton of training for killing people. I actually think that this is a huge issue.

[JHC]

One of the things I do agree with Grossman on is that many of today's video games are simply turning into killing simulators that desensitize people to violence and let them get a ton of training for killing people. I actually think that this is a huge issue.

I agree a little. I am not convinced it makes more murderers. I do think it might make better jihadi killers vs S.L.A. Marshall's arguments which I think Grossman referenced regarding the resistance on the part of soldiers to taking another human life. I cannot find much evidence our faceshooters exhibit what is alleged to have existed across many generations and wars. Net net . . . not sure there is a downside.

[LHS]

One of the things I do agree with Grossman on is that many of today's video games are simply turning into killing simulators that desensitize people to violence and let them get a ton of training for killing people. I actually think that this is a huge issue.

I respect your opinions on many things, but I have to disagree here. I, and most of my friends, have been playing violent first-person shooter games for almost two decades, and none of us have shot up a school. Just like the furor over Dungeons & Dragons in the 1980s, it's nothing more than a scapegoat.

[jon volk]

I have a gut feeling the next week may bring more shootings. It seems some people may actually be living as if the world really is going to end. After seeing the publicity if this tragedy, it's not a stretch to think others might feel compelled to commit their own atrocities. I hope I'm wrong.

[jon volk]

Double post

[jetfire]

I respect your opinions on many things, but I have to disagree here. I, and most of my friends, have been playing violent first-person shooter games for almost two decades, and none of us have shot up a school. Just like the furor over Dungeons & Dragons in the 1980s, it's nothing more than a scapegoat.

Word. Blaming video games is just as stupid as blaming guns.

[TGS]

One of the things I do agree with Grossman on is that many of today's video games are simply turning into killing simulators that desensitize people to violence and let them get a ton of training for killing people. I actually think that this is a huge issue.

I respectfully disagree.

If video games caused people to do stupid shit, then the late 1970's/early 80's would have been filled with people bumping into each other inside dark crowded rooms, listening to electronica while munching on magic pills......but that didn't end up happening until later generations of people who were not spending all their change on Pacman at the arcades.

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that video games desensitize kids to violence. Kids these days are extremely adverse to violence, and it's been going on for so long that even adults are the same. Like Pat Rogers says, kids don't get into fist-fights anymore......they don't have that "mean gene" like kids of past years. Kids of the 1930's were exposed to way more violence than we are today, including non-malevolent violence such as hunting. Yet, they weren't psychopaths.

Given that reports are now saying the shooter was autistic, I think a more useful endeavor for society would be to rehash our whole child vaccination programs. When I was born, autism was one in several thousand kids. Now it's 1 in 88. Holy batman.....and it's due to vaccinations. I'm not saying correlation equals causation in this case, but hot damn lets not make 1 in 88 kids autistic and take that whole element out of the running.

[shootist26]

Maybe I'm naive, but I really don't see a major change in gun laws nationwide as a result of this. Yes there will be debate. Yes, there will be mass media blather. Yes, there will be morons all over Facepage and Tweeter. But we're a fast food nation and by the time this comes around to the next legislative season, there will be new unrelated outrages to focus on or, more likely, some shiny new bauble of a boy/girl on Reality TV Show #521 that will be much more interesting for them to talk about.

The Brady Bunch is still using Columbine as a stick to beat people with, and that's obviously not worked well.

Wouldn't it be awesome if both the pro- and anti-gun sides could agree that maybe just this once we'd care more about the victims and their families than the political footholds that might be gained or lost by capitalizing on the tragedy?

yea I'm gonna disagree. I think this will be the straw that broke the camel's back.

Just something about how the general public perceives a classroom full of dead children vs other mass shootings, unfortunately. Combine that with the incessant non-stop bombardment of today's "mainstream journalism" lashing out against the NRA, gun owners, 2A, "assault weapons" etc

[jetfire]

When I was born, autism was one in several thousand kids. Now it's 1 in 88. Holy batman.....and it's due to vaccinations.

What? Autism is not caused by vaccinations. That whole thing was completely debunked as one of the worst examples of junk science.

http://healthland.time.com/2011/01/06/study-linking-vaccines-to-autism-is-fraudulent/

[Archimagirus]

I am afraid of "common sense" restrictions being used as tit for tat in the fiscal cliff negotiations more anything.

[Shellback]

And it begins in CA - http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2012/12/14/connecticut-school-massacre-renews-call-for-california-bullet-button-ban/

It's against forum etiquette to use the words I want to describe these people.

[Tamara]

And it begins in CA - http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2012/12/14/connecticut-school-massacre-renews-call-for-california-bullet-button-ban/

It's against forum etiquette to use the words I want to describe these people.

Rep. McCarthy didn't waste any time (http://www.politico.com/politico44/2012/12/mccarthy-i-will-embarrass-obama-on-gun-controls-152047.html), either.

[TGS]

What? Autism is not caused by vaccinations. That whole thing was completely debunked as one of the worst examples of junk science.

http://healthland.time.com/2011/01/06/study-linking-vaccines-to-autism-is-fraudulent/

Thanks for pointing that out to me.


Rep. McCarthy didn't waste any time (http://www.politico.com/politico44/2012/12/mccarthy-i-will-embarrass-obama-on-gun-controls-152047.html), either.

Don't read the comments.......don't read the comments.......don't read the comments......

.................................................. .....................................


Frack! I read the comments!

[ford.304]

What? Autism is not caused by vaccinations. That whole thing was completely debunked as one of the worst examples of junk science.

http://healthland.time.com/2011/01/06/study-linking-vaccines-to-autism-is-fraudulent/

This a hundred times. Autism incidence is rising because thirty years ago we barely even knew what it was. Anyone who was in the somewhat functional Asperger's range was just considered "weird" or "nerdy."

I'm not going to try to guess what causes these, although I think that the fame and fortune potential has to be some of it. You don't go mow down a school full of kids as to a way to end it all just because you enjoy it - you want someone to remember you. I think I've seen studies showing that they seem to come in groups after being inspired by the amount of attention the last asshole got.

As someone who plays a lot of violent video games... I'd say it does cause some level of desensitization. Nothing compared to hunting, or shooting pigeons, or actually fighting other kids, or even watching real videos of the holocaust or the gore presented on the news. But it does a bit. The flip side of that is that it can desensitize people in the right direction, too - remember that you *do* play the hero in the vast majority of games. It's like all culture - every form of media, all the way back to the prehistoric myths, is teaching our kids what sort of person we think they ought to be.

[Tamara]

I'm not going to try to guess what causes these, although I think that the fame and fortune potential has to be some of it. You don't go mow down a school full of kids as to a way to end it all just because you enjoy it - you want someone to remember you. I think I've seen studies showing that they seem to come in groups after being inspired by the amount of attention the last asshole got.

Yup. Portland, for instance, was a fairly blatant Aurora copycat in many respects.

[NETim]

I'm not going to try to guess what causes these, although I think that the fame and fortune potential has to be some of it. You don't go mow down a school full of kids as to a way to end it all just because you enjoy it - you want someone to remember you. I think I've seen studies showing that they seem to come in groups after being inspired by the amount of attention the last asshole got.



Absolutely. And what's frightening is that at this very moment someone, somewhere else is fantasizing about creating their own "Columbine."

It was pretty big year for predators
The marketplace was on a roll
And the land of opportunity
Spawned a whole new breed of men without souls
This year notoriety got all confused with fame
And the devil is downhearted babe, cause
There's nothing left for him to claim

He said it's just like home
It's so low-down I can't stand it
I guess my work around here has all been done

The Garden of Allah- Don Henley

[Dagga Boy]

Word. Blaming video games is just as stupid as blaming guns.

I don't think I used the word "blame" or "cause" anywhere in there. I said many of these games are essentially a simulator......and damn good ones. We used to be mandated to provide simulator training to cops....that is lame by the standards of many games today. I have talked to many instructors in both the military and L/E in my work with Aimpoint, and they are seeing a very "positive" trend in that many recruits do VERY well shooting weapons with electronic dot sights.......the same ones they are using in video games. They are clueless on iron sights (and fist fights), but are very good with the concept of finding a target, putting the dot on target and pressing a trigger concept. We can put this stuff to good use where we are seeing the positives in our young people in combat environments, but you also get an issue where we get mentally unstable, dopers who go nuts and are efficient in their evil. I also think that people are less "repulsed" by extreme violence because we live in a society with some very extreme images as normal. De-humanizing is an important part of the process. I had to "learn" it as a cop. Look what we call our enemies in wartime....huns, krauts, japs, nips, slopes, haji, ragheads, etc.... Cops do the same thing with crooks. It is part of the process. When you have seen a ton of man's inhumanities towards man first hand, some of this makes more sense.

[Tamara]

I also think that people are less "repulsed" by extreme violence because we live in a society with some very extreme images as normal.

If one went by the media coverage, one would think that these modern times were more violent and blood-drenched than ever, when in fact (as I'm sure everyone here already knows) the violent crime rate is the lowest it's been in... well my entire life.

[jetfire]

I have talked to many instructors in both the military and L/E in my work with Aimpoint, and they are seeing a very "positive" trend in that many recruits do VERY well shooting weapons with electronic dot sights.......the same ones they are using in video games. They are clueless on iron sights (and fist fights), but are very good with the concept of finding a target, putting the dot on target and pressing a trigger concept.

So what you're saying is that people with minimal firearms training are better at using a simpler sighting system than they are traditional iron sights. Trying to connect that "because they learned how to do it in video games" is pretty shoddy reasoning. I've taught plenty of people to shoot who'd never played a video game before or shot a gun, and they all had an easier time with a dot than they did with irons, probably because a dot is easier.

I also really don't buy the argument that video games desensitize people to real violence. I agree that they desensitize people to fictional violence, but the suggestion that the average gamer isn't bright enough to distinguish "shooting a terrorist in the face in CoD" from "shooting a real person in the face in real life" is right up there with "competition shooters will unload and show clear after a gunfight" in terms of bad logic. It's estimated that 63% of the country now plays video games, which is a lot more than owns guns; yet Tam is right - crime is still historically really low. If video games desensitized us to real world violence, wouldn't crime be worse?

[Dagga Boy]

If one went by the media coverage, one would think that these modern times were more violent and blood-drenched than ever, when in fact (as I'm sure everyone here already knows) the violent crime rate is the lowest it's been in... well my entire life.

Would you be shocked if I told you that L/E Admin are manipulating crime stats to reflect that. Also, I have seen a trend where crime is "different". We live in a less confrontational society with a different type of crime. Violence is not always as "needed" to succeed as a criminal. With that said, it takes very little spark these days to let the animals loose.

[TGS]

If one went by the media coverage, one would think that these modern times were more violent and blood-drenched than ever, when in fact (as I'm sure everyone here already knows) the violent crime rate is the lowest it's been in... well my entire life.

TED: Steven Plinker, The Surprising Decline in Violence (http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html)

A little more abstract than your point, covering the history of humankind but I thought it might be interesting.

[peterb]

We live in a society where images of violence are everywhere, but real violence is rare for most most folks.

It is now entirely possible to live out your life in the US and never see a dead person. That was not the case for most of human history.

Not sure what it's doing to us, but it seems...unbalanced?

[SteveK]

Firearms laws and political opinions aside, we as a society are tea-totally fucked. We are producing young people at an alarming rate that are broken. No legislation is going to fix this. This act is so evil and despicable, political rhetoric is unthinkable.

[SteveK]

One of the things I do agree with Grossman on is that many of today's video games are simply turning into killing simulators that desensitize people to violence and let them get a ton of training for killing people. I actually think that this is a huge issue.

Amen brother.

[John Ralston]

I also really don't buy the argument that video games desensitize people to real violence. I agree that they desensitize people to fictional violence, but the suggestion that the average gamer isn't bright enough to distinguish "shooting a terrorist in the face in CoD" from "shooting a real person in the face in real life" is right up there with "competition shooters will unload and show clear after a gunfight" in terms of bad logic. It's estimated that 63% of the country now plays video games, which is a lot more than owns guns; yet Tam is right - crime is still historically really low. If video games desensitized us to real world violence, wouldn't crime be worse?

In the 70's is was Satanic Rock Music, in the 80's it was violent role playing games such as Dungeons & Dragons...it goes on. Normal people like you and I are unaffected, and I don't believe nut bags are either. They are just fucked in the head and were going to snap eventually.

[NETim]

Crime rates may be down compared to the "good ol' days" and there's no doubt that far fewer of us witness actual violence and death but isn't the fact that far fewer of us actually experience real blood and gore a factor?

I have never seen a dead human, never killed one, but I've witnessed many, many animal killings and butchers. I was introduced to death at an early age and knew it was real.

I was also the beneficiary of involved parenting.

[fuse]

One of the things I do agree with Grossman on is that many of today's video games are simply turning into killing simulators that desensitize people to violence and let them get a ton of training for killing people. I actually think that this is a huge issue.

Nyeti

Say it ain't so

You're always so logical in your posts.

So then an IDPA match must really be a killing simulator. The targets are shaped like people, by golly!

[Nephrology]

I am a Connecticut native. Spent most of my life here - grew up not very far from Newtown. Frankly I just feel really sick about the whole thing. Makes me not want to touch the politics for a long bit, for better or for worse.

[SteveK]

In the 70's is was Satanic Rock Music, in the 80's it was violent role playing games such as Dungeons & Dragons...it goes on. Normal people like you and I are unaffected, and I don't believe nut bags are either. They are just fucked in the head and were going to snap eventually.

With all do respect, I just spent the last three days at the WV State Police Academy where we had access to a shooting simulator ( a $300,000 video game if you will ). The use of such equipment allows officers to hone certain skills such as decision making, awareness and killing. As humans, we have a natural aversion to harming our own species. The simulator allows you in some senarios to experience (without consequences) shooting another human being, thus innoculating you to the stress of combat and the violence of taking a life. Let's face it, we shoot to stop an immediate threat of great bodily injury or death. If we are skilled and do our jobs correctly, that often ends in death for the perpetrator. I think the comparison to violent video games is relavant. Unfortunately, violent games played by youngsters who haven't morally developed can be a recipe for disaster. I think the difference between shooter games and D&D is with the video you have the imagery thus greater desensitization. The real issue here is the age at which these violent experiences occur. Being desensitized during the developmental stages of childhood are vastly different than the same experiences during adulthood after the moral conscience is developed. Just my .02.

[G60]

Yet violent crime is at a 40 year low in the US, while video game sales are at an all-time high...

[SteveK]

I don't think anyone is saying that by playing video games we're all going south. But if you've got a major malfunction to begin with and obsess with these things during development, it appears to be problematic.

[TGS]

Nyeti

Say it ain't so

You're always so logical in your posts.

So then an IDPA match must really be a killing simulator. The targets are shaped like people, by golly!

Actually, by some arguments this is true. It's the reason that the military went to using human silhouettes for quals instead of only bullseyes.

[guymontag]

Harvard Health Publications - Oct 2010 Link (http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletters/Harvard_Mental_Health_Letter/2010/October/violent-video-games-and-young-people)
(quite a balanced article)


Other researchers have challenged the association between violent video game use and school shootings, noting that most of the young perpetrators had personality traits, such as anger, psychosis, and aggression, that were apparent before the shootings and predisposed them to violence. These factors make it more difficult to accept the playing of violent games as an independent risk factor. A comprehensive report of targeted school violence commissioned by the U.S. Secret Service and Department of Education concluded that more than half of attackers demonstrated interest in violent media, including books, movies, or video games. However, the report cautioned that no particular behavior, including interest in violence, could be used to produce a "profile" of a likely shooter.

The U.S. Department of Justice has funded research at the Center for Mental Health and Media at Massachusetts General Hospital to better determine what impact video games have on young people. Although it is still in the preliminary stages, this research and several other studies suggest that a subset of youths may become more aggressive after playing violent video games. However, in the vast majority of cases, use of violent video games may be part of normal development, especially in boys — and a legitimate source of fun too. Given the likelihood of individual variability, it may be useful to consider the impact of video games within three broad domains: personality, situation, and motivation.

CDC on Autism Spectrum Disorders, with questions concerning vaccinations and an ASD "epidemic". (http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/topics.html)

[NETim]

Yet violent crime is at a 40 year low in the US, while video game sales are at an all-time high...

Yep. I still wonder though. I don't remember school shootings when I was a kid and guns were a fairly common sight in shop class when we worked on them. There were all kinds of guns in the parking lot in vehicles too.

I still wonder just how connected to reality most people are now. So many folk get all kind of grossed out when they learn where milk really comes from. Or that death is involved when they eat their Quarter Pounder.

[Dagga Boy]

Nyeti

Say it ain't so

You're always so logical in your posts.

So then an IDPA match must really be a killing simulator. The targets are shaped like people, by golly!

Yes, an IDPA match is supposed to be a combat simulator......I don't think it is as good as many people do, but I believe that is the idea. Let's see, it's supervised, has rules, children who participate have to have their parents involved, it requires a good deal of effort (getting to a range, entry fees, classifying, understanding of the rules and safety protocols, use of approved gear, etc..), and responsibility. That is very different than the video game babysitter. How long would a violent whack job smoking a joint last at an IDPA match? That is the difference. The issue I see is that we have responsible people with good moral and ethical upbringings can handle many things (guns, fast cars, video games, porn, music, drugs and alcohol, and other dangerous things), and we have irresponsible ethically and moral challenged (or just plain whacked) people who can't. As parents become less involved, as we have weak family structures, we find that many can't handle life's dangerous things and abuse other items that don't lend themselves well to abuse. All of these issues are contributors to these horrific incidents. What I find ironic is that the "progressives" of our world have not one issue with anything regarding the first amendment and "anything goes" for everyone, while they are the first to want to get rid of the tools of the second amendment that are often abused by those who are pushing the outer limits of individual freedom.

[MDS]

Yes, an IDPA match is supposed to be a combat simulator......I don't think it is as good as many people do, but I believe that is the idea. Let's see, it's supervised, has rules, children who participate have to have their parents involved, it requires a good deal of effort (getting to a range, entry fees, classifying, understanding of the rules and safety protocols, use of approved gear, etc..), and responsibility. That is very different than the video game babysitter. How long would a violent whack job smoking a joint last at an IDPA match? That is the difference. The issue I see is that we have responsible people with good moral and ethical upbringings can handle many things (guns, fast cars, video games, porn, music, drugs and alcohol, and other dangerous things), and we have irresponsible ethically and moral challenged (or just plain whacked) people who can't. As parents become less involved, as we have weak family structures, we find that many can't handle life's dangerous things and abuse other items that don't lend themselves well to abuse. All of these issues are contributors to these horrific incidents. What I find ironic is that the "progressives" of our world have not one issue with anything regarding the first amendment and "anything goes" for everyone, while they are the first to want to get rid of the tools of the second amendment that are often abused by those who are pushing the outer limits of individual freedom.

This is all keen insight, but what should we do about it? Is there an effective way to keep dangerous things away from unethical, immoral whack jobs, without stabbing at the heart of Liberty?

[Tamara]

Would you be shocked if I told you that L/E Admin are manipulating crime stats to reflect that. Also, I have seen a trend where crime is "different". We live in a less confrontational society with a different type of crime. Violence is not always as "needed" to succeed as a criminal. With that said, it takes very little spark these days to let the animals loose.

True, there's some book cookery going on (although it is, by its nature, impossible to tell how much, and how much went on in the past, as well) and improved medical technology means that a lot of ag assaults these days would have been homicides just thirty or forty years ago, but it's also true that the media hypes violence to the point that the average person thinks the world's a much more violent place than it really is.

[SteveK]

This is all keen insight, but what should we do about it? Is there an effective way to keep dangerous things away from unethical, immoral whack jobs, without stabbing at the heart of Liberty?

No.

[Tamara]

This is all keen insight, but what should we do about it? Is there an effective way to keep dangerous things away from unethical, immoral whack jobs, without stabbing at the heart of Liberty?

Freedom is inherently dangerous. That's one of the reasons I carry a gun.

[Le Français]

The law in my area allows off-duty law enforcement officers to carry onto school property. I like this law, but I wish it was extended to permit holders as well.

[Alaskapopo]

Bad people will do bad things. That does not mean we should all give up our freedom to make a vain attempt at stopping that. What needs to happen is to make schools harder targets and to make the US citizenry less sheeply.
Pat

[G60]

This is all keen insight, but what should we do about it? Is there an effective way to keep dangerous things away from unethical, immoral whack jobs, without stabbing at the heart of Liberty?

If you have time, you'd probably be interested in reading Josh Blackman's paper 'The Constitutionality of Social Cost'

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1763830

[MDS]

Freedom is inherently dangerous. That's one of the reasons I carry a gun.

What they don't tell you is, lack of freedom is at least as dangerous. My wife and I are pretty new parents, this sort of tragedy hits hard. But if you pull away the veneer of modern living, it's clear that we gave our boys death when we gave them life. The small one split his forehead the other day, bled like a Texas oil strike, no big deal but it's just luck that he didn't break his neck, just luck this shooting didn't happen at the big one's preschool this morning, just dumb luck my family won't be slaughtered when I get home in a few minutes. I'm too mad right now to really feel the full loss of this morning's atrocity, but it reminded me of a story I read recently.

http://www.freerangekids.com/the-most-important-free-range-kids-post-so-far/

Life is good, I'm home from a long trip and will give my boys a kiss in their sleep, then take them on our first camping trip tomorrow. It might be our last.

[Dagga Boy]

So what you're saying is that people with minimal firearms training are better at using a simpler sighting system than they are traditional iron sights. Trying to connect that "because they learned how to do it in video games" is pretty shoddy reasoning. I've taught plenty of people to shoot who'd never played a video game before or shot a gun, and they all had an easier time with a dot than they did with irons, probably because a dot is easier.

I also really don't buy the argument that video games desensitize people to real violence. I agree that they desensitize people to fictional violence, but the suggestion that the average gamer isn't bright enough to distinguish "shooting a terrorist in the face in CoD" from "shooting a real person in the face in real life" is right up there with "competition shooters will unload and show clear after a gunfight" in terms of bad logic. It's estimated that 63% of the country now plays video games, which is a lot more than owns guns; yet Tam is right - crime is still historically really low. If video games desensitized us to real world violence, wouldn't crime be worse?

Yep, the Aimpoint is simpler.....that's my sales pitch. I don't know what your background is, but I'll try and put this in perspective from what I am seeing. When a common theme is that L/E and Military instructors who see thousands of what are our most responsible and "good" youth who are relating that they "learned to shoot" on Call of Duty and these instructors are seeing positive results, there is probably something there. I would imagine that this also translates to flying by wire aircraft as well. Much of today's youth did not grow up shooting. Most of the Gen. Y trainees I had never shot a gun before the academy.
So we have our well balanced solid youth who are joining the ranks of our military and law enforcement who are being heavily influenced on the use of firearms by video games rather than by their parents, families and mentors teaching them, and it is basically working well with our current weapon systems.

Now lets take our psycho's, drug abusers, violent gang members, unsupervised and lost youth with piss poor moral guidance and let them spend untold hours with these same video games, glorification of criminal behavior, internet access to God knows what, and all of a sudden those positives for the other kids are not positives. I have spent a lot of time around this group, and they are essentially technically adapted animals. They have little impulse control, they have never been told that what they are seeing is not real and they are emulating what is being delivered to them via the "instant world". Combine this with an insatiable need for instant gratification and a world that is afraid to tell anyone that they aren't special, and we have some major issues.

I only bring some of this up to counter the idea that "guns" are the problem. Criminal access to firearms is part of a lot of problems. I just think it is irresponsible to blame "the NRA" and "assault weapons" without looking at the whole picture. I was disgusted with the sports caster blaming a "culture of guns" on some pile of crap who killed his wife. It is in fact a "Culture of violence" in that assholes case, and a "Culture of no limits" a "Culture of no personal responsibility" and a "Culture of tolerance of evil" that are far more to blame than one type of firearm. Many of us here have chosen the firearm as our means of countering much of the evil wrought by those cultures.

[BaiHu]

As a kid that played violent games: football/lacrosse from 8-18, kill the guy with the ball in b/w these seasons.

Watched and acted out every Ahhnold and Sly action film.

Shot at my friends with plastic guns as we ran around as a platoon every Halloween; shooting a bow/arrow and pellet gun by 10, shotgun by 12, handguns shortly after and martial arts at 13, I'd say I'm the antithesis of the modern day kid in the Northeast of the US. Most of the things I did are considered to be things that 'shouldn't be spoken about' in a large portion of my community. They are things that 'other' people do in b/w watching NASCAR and having sex with their cousin or pig.'

I see a lot as a martial arts teacher, and I will say with some authority, that the lack of physical confrontation and peer management of social 'ills' or 'distractions' is what has a huge effect on a child's ability to navigate the intricacies of logic and emotion in the social stratosphere. The zero tolerance bully concept is rooted in a fear of 'reality based learning', ignoring that life has consequences on both ends of the sword.

Instead of children learning this, all self-defense decisions are made by a conscientious objector that isn't there to see the act, but gives a consistent Solomon like punishment for both 'evil doers' to stop this common and genetically ingrained behavior. Fascinatingly, these are the same people that will teach your kids just how amazing it is to watch the Alpha wolf control its pack through violence and aggression. Aren't animals fascinating?

These kids are boxed in bubble wrap; they are bombarded with exacting instructions (play dates??) on when and how to comport themselves......when playing, but when they meet someone like me, where they get to 'move their body in an organized fashion', they buck at first and for years, before they are rehabilitated into enjoying the actual movement of their own body. I have teenagers telling me my warm ups are harder than their gym classes.

Why? B/c they have such little free movement of their bodies coupled with crappy diets, over stimulation of video games, iPods, iPads (not feeling the violence aspect) and poor sleep habits that they don't know how to be self-disciplined, b/c their bodies don't know what consistency of free movement and thought are like.

They are taught to multitask and speed learn subjects so they can check the box off for their college resume by the time they're in middle school. All of their thoughts are on the future and never the present and when an event finally pushes itself up in their face and forces them to look at that moment dead in the eyes, they crack. Like an embarrassing moment (I achieve that daily, thank you), a bad grade, someone who tells them they're not gonna be like Mike, a friend who turns on them or a girl who stands them up.

Ever tell something so profound and truthful to a kid? If you have, then you know the look.

When talking with overachiever parents that want lil' Johnny to become Jackie Chan by the time they're 12 and don't want to see him 'fail at anything', I ask 'when do you want them to fail? When they're 18, alone in college and stressed out and they turn to drugs, alcohol or promiscuity to drown themselves out of the reality that they've just failed for the first time in their lives and it's so devastating to their fragile ego, b/c everyone around them kept them in a hermetically sealed box? Is that when you want them to fail?'

I call this the speed bump/brick wall phenomenon. It's better for people to hit many speed bumps in life versus getting a greased track right up until they crash head first into a brick wall.

We've failed our kids and not b/c of legislation, video games, diets, sleep, etc. We've failed our kids, b/c we tried to make our lives and their lives 'more convenient', 'less messy' and without consequence to failure, b/c no one fails anymore, we all get participation trophies. Sounds a lot like unconditional support without the tough love, which equals enabling.

[TGS]

I call this the speed bump/brick wall phenomenon. It's better for people to hit many speed bumps in life versus getting a greased track right up until they crash head first into a brick wall.

Wow! This totally brought back memories. At the start of USMC OCS, we were told that many of us were use to not failing at all, but here everyone would fail at some point, that the program was designed as such.

My class ended up having a 58% attrition rate.

Spot on, bro!

[CCT125US]

BaiHu... that is simply awesome

[TAZ]

As a kid that played violent games: football/lacrosse from 8-18, kill the guy with the ball in b/w these seasons.

Watched and acted out every Ahhnold and Sly action film.

Shot at my friends with plastic guns as we ran around as a platoon every Halloween; shooting a bow/arrow and pellet gun by 10, shotgun by 12, handguns shortly after and martial arts at 13, I'd say I'm the antithesis of the modern day kid in the Northeast of the US. Most of the things I did are considered to be things that 'shouldn't be spoken about' in a large portion of my community. They are things that 'other' people do in b/w watching NASCAR and having sex with their cousin or pig.'

I see a lot as a martial arts teacher, and I will say with some authority, that the lack of physical confrontation and peer management of social 'ills' or 'distractions' is what has a huge effect on a child's ability to navigate the intricacies of logic and emotion in the social stratosphere. The zero tolerance bully concept is routed in a fear of 'reality based learning', ignoring that life has consequences on both ends of the sword.

Instead of children learning this, all self-defense decisions are made by a conscientious objector that isn't there to see the act, but gives a consistent Solomon like punishment for both 'evil doers' to stop this common and genetically ingrained behavior. Fascinatingly, these are the same people that will teach your kids just how amazing it is to watch the Alpha wolf control its pack through violence and aggression. Aren't animals fascinating?

These kids are boxed in bubble wrap; they are bombarded with exacting instructions (play dates??) on when and how to comport themselves......when playing, but when they meet someone like me, where they get to 'move their body in an organized fashion', they buck at first and for years, before they are rehabilitated into enjoying the actual movement of their own body. I have teenagers telling me my warm ups are harder than their gym classes.

Why? B/c they have such little free movement of their bodies coupled with crappy diets, over stimulation of video games, iPods, iPads (not feeling the violence aspect) and poor sleep habits that they don't know how to be self-disciplined, b/c their bodies don't know what consistency of free movement and thought are like.

They are taught to multitask and speed learn subjects so they can check the box off for their college resume by the time they're in middle school. All of their thoughts are on the future and never the present and when an event finally pushes itself up in their face and forces them to look at that moment dead in the eyes, they crack. Like an embarrassing moment (I achieve that daily, thank you), a bad grade, someone who tells them they're not gonna be like Mike, a friend who turns on them or a girl who stands them up.

Ever tell something so profound and truthful to a kid? If you have, then you know the look.

When talking with overachiever parents that want lil' Johnny to become Jackie Chan by the time they're 12 and don't want to see him 'fail at anything', I ask 'when do you want them to fail? When they're 18, alone in college and stressed out and they turn to drugs, alcohol or promiscuity to drown themselves out of the reality that they've just failed for the first time in their lives and it's so devastating to their fragile ego, b/c everyone around them kept them in a hermetically sealed box? Is that when you want them to fail?'

I call this the speed bump/brick wall phenomenon. It's better for people to hit many speed bumps in life versus getting a greased track right up until they crash head first into a brick wall.

We've failed our kids and not b/c of legislation, video games, diets, sleep, etc. We've failed our kids, b/c we tried to make our lives and their lives 'more convenient', 'less messy' and without consequence to failure, b/c no one fails anymore, we all get participation trophies. Sounds a lot like unconditional support without the tough love, which equals enabling.

10000000+. Incredibly well stated.

[Cookie Monster]

I've got no kids, so I'm watching from the outside but been around a whole bunch lately. It's different then when I was a kid 20 or more years ago. There is such an avalanche of media and games and being plugged in. I spent turkey day with all sorts of kids around, no doing what they are told, insulting their grandparents, breaking down and crying for not getting thirds on desert before dinner was served, playing with cap guns and being excited about shooting adults in the face. It's a lot of things, there needs to be lots of changes but it is up to people and not the government.

I think I will start panic buying next week.

Prayers to all the families of the victims and all the LEO's and EMT's. It would be a hard thing to let go of.

May he burn.

Cookie Monster

[TCinVA]

I spent much of this evening with a two year old angel that belongs to a friend. She's an absolute joy to be around.

I was reminded that not too many years ago some dudes in uniform shot little girls like her. They gassed them. They starved them to death...and if they cried they would smash their heads in with rifles or by swinging their heads into the side of dump trucks used to load bodies.

Human evil isn't new. Evil directed at children isn't new.

I wish the beautiful, sweet, well mannered little angel in the Mickey Mouse Santa hat I played with tonight was growing up in a world that wasn't filled with evil, but it is what it is.

There is no policy, procedure, or law that can solve the basic problem of human nature. I wish there was. I'd hand in every gun I own and every round of ammo tomorrow if it would guarantee that no one could hurt that little girl...but it can't, it won't, and history tells me that the people who promise it will are more evil than the man who killed those children.

I don't want that to be true...but it just is.

I'd give every dime I have to have been there with my p30 and a spare mag. I won't, however, hand it over to some politician who is long on promises and perpetually short on delivery.

[BaiHu]

BaiHu... that is simply awesome


10000000+. Incredibly well stated.

Thanks guys. That slap on the back really means something. I don't have kids, but my fiancee and I talk about having kids and are concerned about all of the things we talk about here and how these events keep messing with our society. Although we're very cautious, we are undeterred and motivated to bring some awesome kids into this world to remind us that there's enough good in this world to keep fighting for balance.

It means a lot to be connected to all of you at times like these. I have many close friends here and we discuss these things too, but not always from the angles we share here. Despite the fact that some of us may never meet face to face, Todd and his staff have created a family built on ideas that, for the most part, we all share. Although it may come with a fair amount of banging heads at times, those lumps tend to move the ball along the field toward greater understanding and community and I think those are two great attributes we can all enjoy.

[SeriousStudent]

Well said, BaiHu.

The "precious little snowflake" mentality is the cruelest joke anyone has ever played on a child. In my particular job, I train and mentor a lot of people in their early 20's. It's very easy to sort out those that work hard, and those that hardly work. I frequently hear the anguished wail of "That's not fair!"

When I ask them to define fair, I get the typical liberal/progressive definition. That's when they are instructed that equality of opportunity does not mean equality of results.

[Cookie Monster]

I spent much of this evening with a two year old angel that belongs to a friend. She's an absolute joy to be around.

I was reminded that not too many years ago some dudes in uniform shot little girls like her. They gassed them. They starved them to death...and if they cried they would smash their heads in with rifles or by swinging their heads into the side of dump trucks used to load bodies.

Human evil isn't new. Evil directed at children isn't new.

I wish the beautiful, sweet, well mannered little angel in the Mickey Mouse Santa hat I played with tonight was growing up in a world that wasn't filled with evil, but it is what it is.

There is no policy, procedure, or law that can solve the basic problem of human nature. I wish there was. I'd hand in every gun I own and every round of ammo tomorrow if it would guarantee that no one could hurt that little girl...but it can't, it won't, and history tells me that the people who promise it will are more evil than the man who killed those children.

I don't want that to be true...but it just is.

I'd give every dime I have to have been there with my p30 and a spare mag. I won't, however, hand it over to some politician who is long on promises and perpetually short on delivery.

+100

[SeriousStudent]

I spent much of this evening with a two year old angel that belongs to a friend. She's an absolute joy to be around.

I was reminded that not too many years ago some dudes in uniform shot little girls like her. They gassed them. They starved them to death...and if they cried they would smash their heads in with rifles or by swinging their heads into the side of dump trucks used to load bodies.

Human evil isn't new. Evil directed at children isn't new.

I wish the beautiful, sweet, well mannered little angel in the Mickey Mouse Santa hat I played with tonight was growing up in a world that wasn't filled with evil, but it is what it is.

There is no policy, procedure, or law that can solve the basic problem of human nature. I wish there was. I'd hand in every gun I own and every round of ammo tomorrow if it would guarantee that no one could hurt that little girl...but it can't, it won't, and history tells me that the people who promise it will are more evil than the man who killed those children.

I don't want that to be true...but it just is.

I'd give every dime I have to have been there with my p30 and a spare mag. I won't, however, hand it over to some politician who is long on promises and perpetually short on delivery.

My daughter and I spent about a half-hour on the phone tonight. Chatted about this, chatted about that, chatted about her boyfriend, chatted about experiencing her first Christmas far away from home, about her being in the military.

After a bit, she asked if I had heard about the tragedy today. I told her I had. She was quiet for a bit. "You just needed a verbal hug, huh, Dad?"

I told her I did.

"Me too, Dad. I'm really glad you called."

TC, I do not know if you are a father. But you have a father's instincts, and it makes me glad you do.

It's already been said, but everybody hug your kids tonight before you go to sleep.

[NETim]

10000000+. Incredibly well stated.

Ditto!

[NETim]

+100


Ditto again!

[ToddG]

As humans, we have a natural aversion to harming our own species.

With all due respect, this is bunk. Grossman has cultivated this idea through his books and lectures but it's based on questionable data at best. It flies in the face of thousands of years of evidence of violent, bloody, face to face conflicts on a massive scale all across the globe. Why would war be so prevalent if humans had a natural aversion to harming our own species? Why would murder -- both premeditated and spur of the moment -- be so common? Why would almost every major religious text in the known world specifically call out murder as a bad thing?

Humans don't have a natural aversion to harming our own species or even killing our own species. Modern Western culture has put tremendous social pressure on people not to harm one another. Most people in modern America are never confronted with any kind of violence. Kids aren't even allowed to get into fistfights without it becoming a life-changing event these days. How many parents a hundred years ago would have worried about the government taking their kids away if they spanked them? What percentage of Americans in 2012 went hunting and butchered their own kills compared to 1912 or 1712?

So no, I don't believe we have a natural aversion. We have a learned behavior or, more specifically, we as a society have an ingrained fear of the consequences of violence. The end result on teaching soldiers or police officers may be more or less identical, but we need to realize it is something we're doing to ourselves culturally instead of pretending that deep down at heart we're all gentle flowers.

As for the video game thing, I, too, think it's just another silly scapegoat. A big percentage of young criminals who do violent things play violent video games, some people see the correlation and start jumping up and down. What they're ignoring is the fact that a big percentage of young people, criminal or not, play violent video games. So you'd expect the subset of that larger group to have a bunch of video game players, whether it's the subset of "young violent criminals" or "young clarinet players."

In the instant case, the person who committed this heinous act was suffering from a mental disorder. Arguing about the motives of and influences on someone with a disease like autism that isn't even well understood is so utterly ridiculous it boggles the mind.

You know what is human nature? To look for something to blame at a moment of tragedy. Feinstein and McCarthy will blame guns. Gun people will blame video games. Video game people will blame immunizations. Me, I blame the crazy guy who actually, you know, shot all those innocent people.

[Tamara]

With all due respect, this is bunk. Grossman has cultivated this idea through his books and lectures but it's based on questionable data at best. It flies in the face of thousands of years of evidence of violent, bloody, face to face conflicts on a massive scale all across the globe.

Ironically, the first time I read On Killing, I had literally just finished reading a military history of the Assyrian Empire. I have to say that that context (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_the_Neo-Assyrian_Empire#Dealing_with_rebels) rendered parts of LTC Grossman's book a little risible.

[BLR]

Harvard Health Publications - Oct 2010 Link (http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletters/Harvard_Mental_Health_Letter/2010/October/violent-video-games-and-young-people)
(quite a balanced article)


CDC on Autism Spectrum Disorders, with questions concerning vaccinations and an ASD "epidemic". (http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/topics.html)

I would read every health publication with a skeptical and critical eye. Physiology, and especially psychology, is so complex that properly identifying and testing for a single variable is nearly impossible. This is why there are so many conflicting studies and reports.

And doubly so for any gov't authored one.

[ToddG]

A typical day reading Tam's posts:

1203

[TCinVA]

We've become so isolated from the uglier parts of our nature that we have this childlike demand for someone to "fix" situations like this horror so they don't happen. I call this the "do something!" Mentality, when like a child our society throws a tantrum and expects politicians to shield us from having to deal with bad things in life.

As a society we're so desperate to make this ridiculous idea work that we are handing unimaginable resources and power over to people who have proven to be incompetent and malicious.

We need to grow the hell up.

[ToddG]

As a society we're so desperate to make this ridiculous idea work that we are handing unimaginable resources and power over to people who have proven to be incompetent and malicious.

That's an incredible way to put it, Tim.

[Tamara]

The casual tossing around of "Autism Spectrum Disorders" annoys me to no end. It is a lead-pipe cinch that, were I in school today, I'd be diagnosed with Asperger's and... well, whatever it is they do to kids with Asperger's.

I'm introverted, geeky, weird and obsessive, don't read other people's emotions well at all, prefer to sit alone and read, and break out in hives when I'm around other people for too long... but I went to school back before everybody got a trophy and weird behaviors were excused if you were "differently-abled", so I learned how to imitate the other monkeys in the cage so I could get a banana, too.

I've seen autistic... well, not "kids", not physically. One of our regular customers was the caretaker for his autistic son, who had the body of a linebacker, a vocabulary of grunts and moans, and the mind of a toddler. If you're smart enough to say "I would like that Beretta 92 and a hundred rounds of ammo, please," then you are un-autistic enough to join the rest of us in our reindeer games and not have your every social faux pas since childhood given a pass because of your special snowflake-dom. When a little kid urps at the table and giggles about it, we don't pat them on the head and tell them how cute it is, and we damned well need to stop doing it with adolescents.

[Tamara]

Now lets take our psycho's, drug abusers, violent gang members, unsupervised and lost youth with piss poor moral guidance and let them spend untold hours with these same video games, glorification of criminal behavior, internet access to God knows what, and all of a sudden those positives for the other kids are not positives. I have spent a lot of time around this group, and they are essentially technically adapted animals. They have little impulse control, they have never been told that what they are seeing is not real and they are emulating what is being delivered to them via the "instant world". Combine this with an insatiable need for instant gratification and a world that is afraid to tell anyone that they aren't special, and we have some major issues.

The concept of "socially unacceptable behavior", absent from American mass media culture since the early '70s at least, is long overdue for a return.

[BaiHu]

With all due respect, this is bunk. Grossman has cultivated this idea through his books and lectures but it's based on questionable data at best. It flies in the face of thousands of years of evidence of violent, bloody, face to face conflicts on a massive scale all across the globe. Why would war be so prevalent if humans had a natural aversion to harming our own species? Why would murder -- both premeditated and spur of the moment -- be so common? Why would almost every major religious text in the known world specifically call out murder as a bad thing?

I can't agree more. We are just more articulate and upright animals. Our biology is wired to replicate ourselves and stop the other male from replicating himself with our "perceived" mate.

If that seems too simple or neat to you, I ask you, "then why do we have terms like 'crimes of passion' and 'premeditated' vs 'meditated'?"

I'd argue that even lawyers codified into our legal books that we are genetically likely to snap when someone violates our "biological chain of command" known as our spouse and children.

Out of curiosity, b/c I had a hunch, I looked up the word family and my hunch was right. The word family comes from the Latin famulus, which means servant. IMO we serve the hierarchy of the bloodline. Sounds like a biological pecking order if I've ever heard one.

Now back to the barbarism of wolf packs and how we're so much more civilized ;)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[peterb]

Humans don't have a natural aversion to harming our own species or even killing our own species.

No, but we do have an aversion (natural? learned?) to killing members of our own tribe. The first step in making killing acceptable is making the other guy/tribe/race/nation "not one of us".

A lot of "primitive" cultures had elaborate ritual combat as a substitute for actual combat between tribe members. Having members of your own tribe kill or injure each other was a waste of valuable resources.

[ToddG]

peterb -- Square that with the fact that most murders are committed by people known to the victim and often by family members...

[Tamara]

A lot of "primitive" cultures had elaborate ritual combat as a substitute for actual combat between tribe members.

It's important to be careful extrapolating the behavior of "ancient" cultures from the behavior of current "primitive" cultures. As Desmond Morris points out in The Human Zoo, cultures that remain primitive to this day are the exception to the norm of the human experience and therefore might be doing things differently from the way the rest of us were doing it back in the day.

It's like the whole "Alpha wolf" thing, which turns out to come from studying groups of unrelated wolves in captivity. (In the wild, they live in family groups; the proper term for "Alpha wolf" is "dad". There's only one mating pair in the group, and when younger generations want to start their own families, they leave and do so.)

[BaiHu]

The first step in making killing acceptable is making the other guy/tribe/race/nation "not one of us".

Excellent point and what "mentality" separates us the most? What political leaning encourages this separation the most?

The liberal mindset literally legislates so many special/protected classes through its progressive mandate that it has destroyed the very collective it endeavors to create. Add in personal video/audio devices (like the smartphone in my hand) and we isolate ourselves more if we have not already been encouraged to keep that genetic social bond at an earlier stage.

Tying all of this in along side the issue of video games and violence, when I was a kid (74-80's), playing a video game was a collective experience where we all sat as a family (the Wii tends to bring the family together), took turns and marveled at these games. Now kids isolate themselves (no, multi player online doesn't count) in front of a whole new world where they are king. Reinforcing the leftist idea that they are indeed special and kingly and will be like Mike, etc.

That, IMO, is the real danger of the video games-the lack of socialization, ease of being in charge and lack of consequences via cheat codes and unlimited lives; not the actual violence within the story line.

I play some of these violent FPS games and the most asocial person is the one with all the cheat codes, making head shots from unknown locations, with a Beretta, at 200 yds, while I'm hiding in between cargo boxes-damn you SolidSnake! Lol!



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[LOKNLOD]

The first step in making killing acceptable is making the other guy/tribe/race/nation "not one of us".

That's pretty much "civilization" at its most basic level. You can't form an "us" without also creating a "them". And an "us" can be pretty useful.



A lot of "primitive" cultures had elaborate ritual combat as a substitute for actual combat between tribe members. Having members of your own tribe kill or injure each other was a waste of valuable resources.

I believe those were needed and invented precisely because there was such a tendency for people to kill and fight even their family if left unchecked by some sort of guidance. That ritual stuff is tribal leaders going "crap, they're going to fight no matter what, how do we keep them from killing each other and save it for our real enemies?"

In my book the very first murder was brother on brother...

[ford.304]

The casual tossing around of "Autism Spectrum Disorders" annoys me to no end. It is a lead-pipe cinch that, were I in school today, I'd be diagnosed with Asperger's and... well, whatever it is they do to kids with Asperger's.

I'm introverted, geeky, weird and obsessive, don't read other people's emotions well at all, prefer to sit alone and read, and break out in hives when I'm around other people for too long... but I went to school back before everybody got a trophy and weird behaviors were excused if you were "differently-abled", so I learned how to imitate the other monkeys in the cage so I could get a banana, too.


I think you just casually tossed around Autism Spectrum yourself ;-) I have a cousin who's been diagnosed with Aspergers... sorry, a high-functioning Autism Spectrum Disorder. And there's a significant difference from someone like myself, who scores in the autism range on all of the online tests you can take but still managed to sort himself out into a mostly functioning social person by the end of monkey school. The real trick is how to socially identify these disorders without giving them a pass. Because people *can* benefit a lot from the additional treatment and social therapy for this stuff - the whole point is that they don't figure it out on their own, but they *can* be taught, if someone is teaching them. The trick is to do that without taking away their agency or responsibility.

It's weird how we have no problem with this idea in sports. If I'm naturally slower, or a bad shot in basketball... we'll admit it, and the coach will probably spend extra time with me on speed work or on shooting. But come game time, we don't just say "put him in anyway, he's just a naturally bad shot, it's ok if he takes one and misses." Naming a disorder needs to be more along those lines socially - it's not a get out of responsibility free card, it's an identification of how to fix your game.

[NETim]

I'm introverted, geeky, weird and obsessive, don't read other people's emotions well at all, prefer to sit alone and read, and break out in hives when I'm around other people for too long... but I went to school back before everybody got a trophy and weird behaviors were excused if you were "differently-abled", so I learned how to imitate the other monkeys in the cage so I could get a banana, too.



You too huh? :)

[SteveK]

With all due respect, this is bunk. Grossman has cultivated this idea through his books and lectures but it's based on questionable data at best. It flies in the face of thousands of years of evidence of violent, bloody, face to face conflicts on a massive scale all across the globe. Why would war be so prevalent if humans had a natural aversion to harming our own species? Why would murder -- both premeditated and spur of the moment -- be so common? Why would almost every major religious text in the known world specifically call out murder as a bad thing?

Humans don't have a natural aversion to harming our own species or even killing our own species. Modern Western culture has put tremendous social pressure on people not to harm one another. Most people in modern America are never confronted with any kind of violence. Kids aren't even allowed to get into fistfights without it becoming a life-changing event these days. How many parents a hundred years ago would have worried about the government taking their kids away if they spanked them? What percentage of Americans in 2012 went hunting and butchered their own kills compared to 1912 or 1712?

So no, I don't believe we have a natural aversion. We have a learned behavior or, more specifically, we as a society have an ingrained fear of the consequences of violence. The end result on teaching soldiers or police officers may be more or less identical, but we need to realize it is something we're doing to ourselves culturally instead of pretending that deep down at heart we're all gentle flowers.

As for the video game thing, I, too, think it's just another silly scapegoat. A big percentage of young criminals who do violent things play violent video games, some people see the correlation and start jumping up and down. What they're ignoring is the fact that a big percentage of young people, criminal or not, play violent video games. So you'd expect the subset of that larger group to have a bunch of video game players, whether it's the subset of "young violent criminals" or "young clarinet players."

In the instant case, the person who committed this heinous act was suffering from a mental disorder. Arguing about the motives of and influences on someone with a disease like autism that isn't even well understood is so utterly ridiculous it boggles the mind.

You know what is human nature? To look for something to blame at a moment of tragedy. Feinstein and McCarthy will blame guns. Gun people will blame video games. Video game people will blame immunizations. Me, I blame the crazy guy who actually, you know, shot all those innocent people.

I suppose I could have phrased that better. I would suggest that your standard Christian, morally developed individual would be adverse to taking another life. It is part of the basis for our morality (remember Thou Shalt Not Kill). "Kill" in the biblical sense refers to murder and does not refer to acts of war or self-defense. Now history is full of broken, murderous psychopaths and that is part of our nature. But I believe that the good people of this world detest such violence, even though alot of us train and are prepared to do extreme violence to those who would pray on the masses. We do so without regret or remorse, but it still doesn't leave the best of tastes in your mouth.

[BaiHu]

Interesting assessment from an unlikely source.

http://boingboing.net/2012/12/15/roger-ebert-on-how-the-press-r.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[Mjolnir]

Did you shoot somebody, too? No? Doesn't matter.

"You're Billy the Kid too (http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB10001424127887324478304578171623040640006-lMyQjAxMTAyMDEwMjExNDIyWj.html?mod=wsj_valetbottom _email), you know. You all are..."

My sentiments, too.

But when government officials are hell bent on ABSOLUTE CONTROL they invariably have to remove arms from the populace.

These events - whether staged, controlled or totally random - TOTALLY plays into the tyrants' hands.

[NETim]

http://www.freep.com/article/20121214/NEWS06/121214074/In-Michigan-supporters-say-new-gun-law-could-help-stop-tragedies-like-Conn-massacre

[TCinVA]

Now history is full of broken, murderous psychopaths and that is part of our nature.

...it's also full of what we would agree are largely "ordinary people" who did unspeakably evil things when put in an environment that rewarded it. The vast majority of Nazis weren't murderous psychopaths just like the vast majority of the people involved in Penn State weren't pedophiles.

We'd desperately like to believe that there's something fundamentally wrong with the people who commit horrible acts because it seems to be a lot scarier for people to admit that the capacity for unspeakable evil dwells within us all. It's the modern form of burning the witch. We want to believe we're being stalked by a monster and we want to cage it. In reality we look the monster in the face when we look in the mirror.

[TCinVA]

My sentiments, too.

But when government officials are hell bent on ABSOLUTE CONTROL they invariably have to remove arms from the populace.

These events - whether staged, controlled or totally random - TOTALLY plays into the tyrants' hands.

Those who draw their power from mob mentality are first and foremost opportunists.

As advanced as we believe our civilization is, it's not immune from the fundamental peccadilloes of human nature. The more one understands human nature the more one appreciates just how smart those guys were in the late 18th century who outlined our government. They understood in their day, better than we do in ours, just how flawed the human being is and how to structure things to keep human flaws from expressing themselves through oppressive government power.

[peterb]

Excellent point and what "mentality" separates us the most? What political leaning encourages this separation the most?

The liberal mindset literally legislates so many special/protected classes through its progressive mandate that it has destroyed the very collective it endeavors to create. 2

Yes, social conservatives are known for being warm and inclusive towards folks who are different.......

Folks on both sides encourage the "us vs. them" mentality when it can be used for political advantage.

Agree that treating folks as members of a class instead of as individuals is a poor approach, but again, that cuts both ways. I read posts here from members upset about stereotyping "gun owners" who are quick to apply similar generalizations to other folks.

[SteveK]

Have no doubt that Obama will call for more restrictive laws. Remember, his spawning political machine took a major hit last week when the Illinois concealed carry ban was ruled unconstitutional. I'm sure his feathers are a little more than ruffled. I don't look for anything major other than the attempted reinactment of the Brady laws.

[guymontag]

I would read every health publication with a skeptical and critical eye. Physiology, and especially psychology, is so complex that properly identifying and testing for a single variable is nearly impossible. This is why there are so many conflicting studies and reports.

And doubly so for any gov't authored one.

Indeed, and it bears repeating, as the human mind is a beautiful and complex thing.

However, I will maintain members of the forum would benefit more from the balanced, and more recent, Harvard Health Publication over the older claims from Grossman.

[TGS]

My google-fu appears to be weak today.

Would someone help me?

I'm trying to locate an article that discussed how 91, 93, or so documented mass shootings were prevented or stopped short by armed citizens...either ones with CCW permits or who were at school that had retrieved the (illegally stowed) weapons from their cars and returned to confront the shooter. I've read of several of these incidents, but I can't find an article discussing the 90+ shootings as a whole that were deterred.

Thanks!

[JHC]

My google-fu appears to be weak today.

Would someone help me?

I'm trying to locate an article that discussed how 91, 93, or so documented mass shootings were prevented or stopped short by armed citizens...either ones with CCW permits or who were at school that had retrieved the (illegally stowed) weapons from their cars and returned to confront the shooter. I've read of several of these incidents, but I can't find an article discussing the 90+ shootings as a whole that were deterred.

Thanks!

Well one of them for sure occurred in MS where an asst principal sprinted to his truck and got his pistol and the shooter surrendered upon being drawn down on. That is the only one I have in short term memory.

[JHC]

...it's also full of what we would agree are largely "ordinary people" who did unspeakably evil things when put in an environment that rewarded it. The vast majority of Nazis weren't murderous psychopaths just like the vast majority of the people involved in Penn State weren't pedophiles.

We'd desperately like to believe that there's something fundamentally wrong with the people who commit horrible acts because it seems to be a lot scarier for people to admit that the capacity for unspeakable evil dwells within us all. It's the modern form of burning the witch. We want to believe we're being stalked by a monster and we want to cage it. In reality we look the monster in the face when we look in the mirror.

And it's not just the evil doer ordinary persons. It's the just and decent who will kill when killing is needed. I cannot recommend highly enough Jeff Coopers essay "The Deadly American" which was in a little book of his essays called "Fireworks". I've tried and tried to find it on line to no avail.

[JV_]

It's being reported that the rifle he used was an AR-15, specifically a Bushmaster.

[NickA]

It's being reported that the rifle he used was an AR-15, specifically a Bushmaster.

I also read at least one article saying it was recovered from his car, not with his body. Not that it matters, since it was widely reported from the beginning everyone will remember that it was used, whether it was or not.
The media coverage has been a total Charlie Foxtrot, multiple conflicting inaccurate accounts spun out in the name of ratings over truth.

[RoyGBiv]

I cannot recommend highly enough Jeff Coopers essay "The Deadly American" which was in a little book of his essays called "Fireworks". I've tried and tried to find it on line to no avail.
My Google-fu points here: http://www.amazon.com/Fireworks-Gunsite-Anthology-Jeff-Cooper/dp/0873649966
I've not read it but here's the TOC (http://jeffcooperbooks.com/jml/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=18) that shows your referenced essay is included.

[CCT125US]

Since it's being reported that the guns used were stolen from his parents home, I wonder how that will play out. Looks like the laws broken are mass murder, entering a gun free zone, underage possesion of handguns, theft, etc, etc. When the hell will people stop and realize that evil exists in this world. I feel that placing blame on an object is a sign of mental illness. Stop looking for the next law you can pass and allow the healing to begin.

[JHC]

My Google-fu points here: http://www.amazon.com/Fireworks-Gunsite-Anthology-Jeff-Cooper/dp/0873649966
I've not read it but here's the TOC (http://jeffcooperbooks.com/jml/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=18) that shows your referenced essay is included.

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I bought the book from Amazon. I meant the essay is not published on line as far as I know. Thanks much.

[JHC]

I also read at least one article saying it was recovered from his car, not with his body. Not that it matters, since it was widely reported from the beginning everyone will remember that it was used, whether it was or not.
The media coverage has been a total Charlie Foxtrot, multiple conflicting inaccurate accounts spun out in the name of ratings over truth.

Yep that version is now getting more widely reported. After a day of assault rifle lead story - it appears he left it in the vehicle and just took his pistols in. Obama will be somewhat disappointed in that.

[G60]

My google-fu appears to be weak today.

Would someone help me?

I'm trying to locate an article that discussed how 91, 93, or so documented mass shootings were prevented or stopped short by armed citizens...either ones with CCW permits or who were at school that had retrieved the (illegally stowed) weapons from their cars and returned to confront the shooter. I've read of several of these incidents, but I can't find an article discussing the 90+ shootings as a whole that were deterred.

Thanks!

Here's one: http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/

[Tamara]

Looks like the laws broken are mass murder, entering a gun free zone, underage possesion of handguns, theft, etc, etc. When the hell will people stop and realize that evil exists in this world. I feel that placing blame on an object is a sign of mental illness. Stop looking for the next law you can pass and allow the healing to begin.

Never let a crisis go to waste.

[rsa-otc]

I just read this and found it interesting; according to this article there hasn't been a rise in mass shootings. Maybe we just hear about them over and over in the 24 hour news cycle and they seem constant.
http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20121215/US.Year.of.the.Gun/

With regards to the rifle being on the shooter or in the car; I also read this morning that the rifle was found in the car and not on the body, but this article claims some of the victims were shot multiple times with rifle rounds.
http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20121214/US.Connecticut.School.Shooting/?cid=hero_media

It seems that in their rush to be the first to report something, anything the news outlets end up giving us disinformation more that information. Started out that the shooter was a father of one of the students, then his mother was teaching there, next was that she was a substitute teacher but she was killed at home, now according to the 2nd link above she was not associated with the school at all, it was the shooter that was a student long ago. Just like the Zimmerman shooting we can't count on original reports to be correct.

Scott's new rule number one of believing news reports, any report that begins or ends with the source "speaking on condition of anonymity" throw out the window its probably garbage.

[JConn]

I just read this and found it interesting; according to this article there hasn't been a rise in mass shootings. Maybe we just hear about them over and over in the 24 hour news cycle and they seem constant.
http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20121215/US.Year.of.the.Gun/

With regards to the rifle being on the shooter or in the car; I also read this morning that the rifle was found in the car and not on the body, but this article claims some of the victims were shot multiple times with rifle rounds.
http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20121214/US.Connecticut.School.Shooting/?cid=hero_media

It seems that in their rush to be the first to report something, anything the news outlets end up giving us disinformation more that information. Started out that the shooter was a father of one of the students, then his mother was teaching there, next was that she was a substitute teacher but she was killed at home, now according to the 2nd link above she was not associated with the school at all, it was the shooter that was a student long ago. Just like the Zimmerman shooting we can't count on original reports to be correct.

Scott's new rule number one of believing news reports, any report that begins or ends with the source "speaking on condition of anonymity" throw out the window its probably garbage.

I was trying to make this point yesterday to everyone at work. Nothing we hear now is likely factual. We are going to have to wait 4 or 5 days to get the real story. However, because there is no media accountability they can just spin a narrative that is beneficial to their current political motives and aspirations.

[Mjolnir]

I don't know where Obama has EVER stated that he was all about banning firearms since his campaign to the White House - despite the fear mongering during his first term.

His statements yesterday were weak words; nothing definitive about banning anything. If he were truly the monster (on this issue) as many seem he could have gained immense support from the anti-Bill of Rights senators and congress critters on both sides of the aisle, the pseudo Elite who own anything worth owning and the limp-minded dupes (aka anti-gun liberals).

Didn't happen.

But the pressure from ALL OF THE ABOVE is mounting. Will YOUR words be heard by those who matter?

Buy what you think you need and want but please drop the hysterics.

[Shellback]

The Obama administration and Congress let school security funding lapse. Article here. (http://www.washingtonguardian.com/washingtons-school-security-failure)

[jon volk]

Despite all earlier reports indicating the pistols as primary weapons, the medical examiner determined all were killed my multiple rifle rounds each.

[Mjolnir]

Despite all earlier reports indicating the pistols as primary weapons, the medical examiner determined all were killed my multiple rifle rounds each.

But the rifle was found INSIDE his vehicle...

That dog don't hunt.

[JConn]

But the rifle was found INSIDE his vehicle...

That dog don't hunt.

Yes very confusing. Incorrect initial information probably. I also heard an initial report claiming there were two shooters, just like in aurora. I'm not a tin foil hat guy but I just want all of this to make sense. Facts are facts and I want them.

[jon volk]

http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=17981351&sid=81

I'm inclined to believe the words of the guy picking the fragments out during the autopsy. I can't imagine having that responsibility.

[Mjolnir]

I don't buy into the "tinfoil" moniker. Ever.

There are good people and bad people. Godly people and Evil people. Humans are smart and the smartest, most motivated plan. Period.

They were searching for the second shooter in CT and CHASING the second guy in Aurora according to police reports. Doesn't fit nicely so we suppress.

All is not nice and clean on planet Earth. Never was.

[Mjolnir]

http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=17981351&sid=81

I'm inclined to believe the words of the guy picking the fragments out during the autopsy. I can't imagine having that responsibility.

All can be reached. JFK was hit from behind and RFK was hit from the front - despite the physical evidence.

Just sayin'

[Mjolnir]

Here:

(deleted by ToddG: please follow our copyright rules ... original version of quoted material can be found here (http://www.naturalnews.com/038352_school_shooting_lone_gunman_media_cover-up.html))

[Tom Givens]

I know this is preaching to the choir here, but here are some arguments to use on knee-jerk gun banners:

In the wake of the tragic, horrific slaughter of innocent school children in Connecticut, there has been a renewed cry for more gun control laws. This stems from the natural need to “do something” when a tragedy of this proportion occurs. I agree we need to do something, but the “something” I want is a bit different.

The “Gun Free Schools Act of 1994” made it a federal crime to possess a firearm on any school property. Many states enacted similar legislation at the state level, as the federal act required them to do so or lose certain federal funding. Thus, it has been a crime to go onto school property anywhere in the US while in possession of a gun for the past 28 years. Has that helped?

Well, I did some research and I cannot find a single mass school shooting in the US prior to 1994, when this bill was passed. For the purposes of this discussion, I will define a “mass school shooting” as one in which three or more people were killed. I have found 14 such incidents in the United States between 1997 and the Newtown, CT, incident of yesterday. That is an average of one incident every two years. ALL OF THESE OCCURRED AFTER THE ENACTMENT OF THE GUN FREE SCHOOLS ACT OF 1994! Let me emphasize that—every mass school shooting in the US occurred AFTER it became illegal to possess a gun on school grounds. Why?

The answer should be obvious. By making schools a “gun free zone”, you automatically disarm all law abiding citizens at those locations. This is tantamount to placing a sign on the front of the building inviting criminals and mentally deranged persons to come shoot up the place. “Come on in. We’re all unarmed, by law. We won’t interfere with your mayhem.” Disgusting…..

I, for instance, have a state issued handgun carry permit. I am certified by the NRA as a Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor and I have been certified by the FBI as a police firearms instructor. I am certified by two states to train and certify new firearms instructors for those states. I have held a law enforcement officer commission. I travel all over the US teaching defensive firearms use. Yet, by law, I would commit a felony by stepping onto school grounds while wearing my sidearm. Despite this, someone who, for whatever reason, wants to shoot up a school can walk right in. If he is willing to murder six year olds in cold blood, he certainly won’t be deterred by a law against bringing a gun onto the campus. Duh….. To think otherwise is so naïve as to be a form of mental illness.

I think it is truly ironic that in the first mass school shooting I could find, occurring in 1997, the mayhem was stopped when the Assistant Principal got a handgun from his car and confronted the gunman, who surrendered to him. Thank God the Assistant Principal had an ILLEGAL gun that day.
A couple of weeks ago, there was an attempted mass shooting at a mall in Oregon. The demented shooter had a high capacity semiautomatic rifle, but he only managed to kill two people and wound one other before killing himself. Why was the body count so low, given that this was obviously a copy-cat version of the Aurora, CO, shootings? The answer is simple. Because Nick Meli, age 22, was at the mall there with his wife and child. Nick has a concealed carry permit and was wearing a handgun concealed on his person. When the suspect began shooting, Nick drew his gun and verbally challenged the gunman. Meli held his fire because of innocent people in the background (excellent judgment under stress), but his actions caused the gunman to break off the attack, run into a nearby service corridor and kill himself, ending the spree. Of course, the lamestream media will not tell you about Nick. They would prefer a higher body count rather than tell you a legally armed citizen saved the day. Here are a few other instances that two minutes of internet research brought to light. In each case, a legally armed private citizen saved lives by being there and by being armed.

1. In Pearl, Mississippi in 1997, 16-year-old Luke Woodham stabbed and bludgeoned to death his mother at home, then killed two students and injured seven at his high school. As he was on his way to another school building , he was stopped by Assistant Principal Joel Myrick, who had gone out to get a handgun from his car. Having that gun was illegal, but it saved lives.

2. In Edinboro, Pennsylvania in 1996, 14-year-old Andrew Wurst shot and killed a teacher at a school dance, and shot and injured several other students. He had just left the dance hall, carrying his gun when he was confronted by the dance hall owner James Strand, who lived next door and kept a shotgun at home.

3. In Winnemucca, Nevada in 2008, Ernesto Villagomez killed two people and wounded two others in a bar filled with three hundred people. He was then shot and killed by a patron who was carrying a gun (and had a concealed carry license).

4. In Colorado Springs in 2007, Matthew Murray killed four people at a church. He was then shot several times by Jeanne Assam, a church member, volunteer security guard, and former police officer (she had been dismissed by a police department 10 years before, and to my knowledge hadn’t worked as a police officer since).

So, I do want some legislative action. I want “gun free zones” abolished, at least for legally armed citizens with government issued licenses to carry. This is real “common sense” gun legislation.

[SeriousStudent]

And it's not just the evil doer ordinary persons. It's the just and decent who will kill when killing is needed. I cannot recommend highly enough Jeff Coopers essay "The Deadly American" which was in a little book of his essays called "Fireworks". I've tried and tried to find it on line to no avail.

Thanks for the tip, I ordered the book tonight. I also found an interesting book on Jelly Bryce, and ordered that as well.

[Le Français]

Mr. Givens,

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the Gun Free Schools Act of 1994 does not criminalize the possession of firearms on school grounds. Rather, it lays out guidelines for what schools need to do when they discover a student has brought a gun to school (specifically, mandatory expulsion).

The Gun Free School Zones Act of 1995 (which replaced the 1990 law found unconstitutional in U.S. v. Lopez) does ban the possession of firearms on school grounds and within 1000' of school grounds, and contains several notable exceptions. One of these exceptions is that persons holding a valid firearms license issued by the state in which the school is located are exempt, provided that the state's licensing process involved a criminal background check.

Of course, state laws still apply.

And I agree that these laws don't make sense, especially as an attempt to limit mass shootings such as the one in question.

[Tamara]

Well, I did some research and I cannot find a single mass school shooting in the US prior to 1994, when this bill was passed.

Stockton, CA, which was the impetus for the original, overturned, 1000ft Gun-Free School Zone act.

[Tamara]

They were searching for the second shooter in CT and CHASING the second guy in Aurora according to police reports. Doesn't fit nicely so we suppress.

That's because when the cops and media show up, they start asking every "eyewitness" what they saw and following up on it.

"That guy over there!"
"OMG, Suzy's sister says her boyfriend says he saw three guys run by over there!"
"I can't tell, it was so dark and smoky, but he went that way! And he had a machine gun!"

Come on, you're a smart dude who's been to a lot of gun skool; you know how messed up and unreliable (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?3615-Study-Holding-a-gun-makes-you-think-others-are-too&p=61353&viewfull=1#post61353) eyewitness testimony is.

Surely you've done a bit of Force-on-Force or Role-Playing in gun skool and then debriefed everybody in the class who was watching or participating and gotten twelve different stories, and that was without anybody really getting shot, in a controlled environment, nobody in the throes of childhood fabulism, and half the class composed of trained observers.

[RyGuy]

I like to read a lot of different perspectives, including those I disagree with. I've been making the rounds of sites like HuffPo and DailyKos today, just to see what they've got to say.

Turns out this whole thing could have been prevented if we'd just ban machine guns already. I'm a good five or six opinion pieces away from an aneurysm.

[TCinVA]

This has nothing to do with logic or empirical data. Those of the progressive bend tend to be immune to empirical arguments. This, to them, is about doing "something" they feel to be right even though at least 3/4 of the stuff being bandied about isn't remotely related to the specifics of this incident.

Nothing is falsifiable to the sorts of people who are arguing for more gun control. It is an article of faith to them.

[RyGuy]

This has nothing to do with logic or empirical data. Those of the progressive bend tend to be immune to empirical arguments. This, to them, is about doing "something" they feel to be right even though at least 3/4 of the stuff being bandied about isn't remotely related to the specifics of this incident.

Nothing is falsifiable to the sorts of people who are arguing for more gun control. It is an article of faith to them.
The mentality simply stuns me. If I cared deeply about, say, outlawing automatic transmissions, I'd do as much research as I possibly could to make sure I had every aspect of the argument against them covered. The anti-gun movement, on the other hand, seems to delight in not knowing even what laws are already on the books, or what it is they're actually arguing in favor of banning.

[JConn]

http://m.nypost.com/p/news/local/mother_made_kid_slay_madman_ojfQG64P9S35iQz9x3BmTJ

Demonization of people who like guns. The first few sentences will pass you off.

[Shellback]

Ron Paul, some like him some don't, but at least he's putting forward common sense legislation, getting rid of criminal safe zones. http://m.cnsnews.com/news/article/ron-paul-introduces-bill-abolish-gun-free-zones

[NETim]

I'm picking up on news articles that seem to indicate that investigators are attempting to learn if there's a link between the shooter and the "recreational shooting community."

Is the "recreational shooting community" now considered a potential threat to society? Did I miss something?

[JConn]

I'm picking up on news articles that seem to indicate that investigators are attempting to learn if there's a link between the shooter and the "recreational shooting community."

Is the "recreational shooting community" now considered a potential threat to society? Did I miss something?

Of course, we disprove all of their arguments.

[Shellback]

Feinstein seeking new gun laws. Article (http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/16/15945357-top-democrat-will-seek-new-gun-law-in-next-congress?lite).

To that end, California Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D, said she intended to introduce a gun control bill on the first day of the next Congress. Paired with a twin version in the House, Feinstein's law would take aim at limiting the sale, transfer and possession of assault weapons, along with the capacity of high-capacity magazines.

[NETim]

Of course, we disprove all of their arguments.

The overwhelming majority of us do anyway.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Where am I?

Friday morning, 9 miles from the shit hitting the fan.

Sorry I haven't checked in, I can't log in from work anymore.

[Tom Givens]

Tamara-

Of course, you are correct about Stockton. Somehow my search did not turn it up, and I did not recall it. This is the danger of typing at 2:30am while disgusted.

[JHC]

From the Libertarian Party:
http://www.lp.org/news/press-releases/halt-the-massacre-of-innocent-children-by-ending-prohibition-on-self-defense-in

Excerpt:

• A 1997 high school shooting in Pearl, Miss., was halted by the school's vice principal after he retrieved the Colt .45 he kept in his truck.
• A 1998 middle school shooting ended when a man living next door heard gunfire an
d apprehended the shooter with his shotgun.
• A 2002 terrorist attack at an Israeli school was quickly stopped by an armed teacher and a school guard.
• A 2002 law school shooting in Grundy, Va., came to an abrupt conclusion when students carrying firearms confronted the shooter.
• A 2007 mall shooting in Ogden, Utah, ended when an armed off-duty police officer intervened.
• A 2009 workplace shooting in Houston, Texas, was halted by two coworkers who carried concealed handguns.
• A 2012 church shooting in Aurora, Colo., was stopped by a member of the congregation carrying a gun.
• At the recent mall shooting in Portland, Ore., the gunman took his own life minutes after being confronted by a shopper carrying a concealed weapon.

[BaiHu]

On the mental health side of the story:

http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html?m=1

[JHC]

On the mental health side of the story:

http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html?m=1

Really interesting, thanks. We de-mental institutioned in the '80's and the unintended consequences is living on the street and families that have fewer options.

[RoyGBiv]

On the mental health side of the story:

http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html?m=1

One of the most useful commentaries I've read since Friday. Thanks for cross posting that.

[BaiHu]

Thanks, here's another great piece:

http://us1.campaign-archive2.com/?u=c7c578f94365a99fb2dd164c1&id=26182ce9cc&e=[UNIQID]

[harryr2000]

no message

[Kyle Reese]

Harryr2000,
You need to review and adhere to the Forum Rules (http://pistol-forum.com/misc.php?do=showrules), in particular;


•Remain polite and professional in your conversation with others. Demeaning, insulting, and berating other members will not be tolerated. You are free to disagree, but do so respectfully and with humility.

This is your only warning.

[jetfire]

You want a FDA? An FCC? A CIA? A national hiways system? Airports? NASA? NIH? Cancer research? National crime database? TSA?

No, not really, yes, sure, yes, definitely yes, meh, private sector does a better job, meh, and not just no but hell no.

I don't think I missed any, but if I did the answer is probably no. We have plenty of government. Government didn't do anything to stop this tragedy.

[JHC]

Did you know that in 1994 Congress passed what was called the Guns-Free Schools Act. Said that possession or use of a gun within 500 feet was a FEDERAL offense. That is somewhat important, cause it brings in resources of FBI and ATF, etc. no matter what the state law happens to be. So a kid takes a .38 to school and gets busted. Smart lawyer appeals all the way to SC.

Well the SC struck it down by a 5-4 vote. Said that it violated the Commerce Clause." Said the founders would not have envisioned it. US v. Lopez. Kid gets case dismmised. Great message, right?

That's the point. You want a constitution frozen in 1789 or one that those founders would have adapted to? Think they weren't smart? Think again.

You want a FDA? An FCC? A CIA? A national hiways system? Airports? NASA? National crime database? TSA?

There used to be a saying - even if you can't cure the whole problem, it is not permissible for you to refrain. Also, better to lite one candle than curse the darkness.

Edited by FredM.

Bolded easily constitutional by the 1789 standard. Why wouldn't they be? I missed a point somewhere.

[Tamara]

Did you know that in 1994 Congress passed what was called the Guns-Free Schools Act.

Did you know that there are a post #186 and #188 in this thread?


Said that possession or use of a gun within 500 feet was a FEDERAL offense.

I haven't broken out a tape measure to check the distance to the elementary school down the block, but it is probably somewhere between 500 and 1000ft.

There are a lot of guns in my house.

I have never, ever caught one of them trying to sneak out of the safe to an open window to do mischief.

Are you saying I should be denied my 2nd Amendment rights because of where I live? Which other Amendments do you think should be invalid in my house because of the proximity of a school?

[Saur]

On the mental health side of the story:

http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html?m=1


been seein' this posted up on fb now
x.x; http://www.xojane.com/issues/a-response-to-i-am-adam-lanzas-mother-from-a-doctor-in-the-trenches-i-am-adam-lanzas-psychiatrist by anonymous :rolleyes:

[TCinVA]

I just read on GunNuts that NBC has cancelled 3 gun nation and Discovery has cancelled American Guns...even though I'm having a hard time identifying anyone on those programs who killed anyone.

...and yet they're still covering the NFL despite the fact that an NFL player did actually kill someone.

I find displays of morality by progressives in media to be quite confusing.

[RoyGBiv]

I find displays of morality by progressives in media to be quite confusing.

I'm gonna guess those shows were on their way out anyway, but were sacrificed early so their media parents could take credit for "doing something". The moves were financially motivated business decisions repurposed as marketing masquerading as morality. Nothing more.
Just a hunch.

[BaiHu]

Thanks for the heads up TC and spot on assessment, IMO Roy.

[LHS]

I'm gonna guess those shows were on their way out anyway, but were sacrificed early so their media parents could take credit for "doing something". The moves were financially motivated business decisions repurposed as marketing masquerading as morality. Nothing more.
Just a hunch.

This is the most likely cause. Otherwise Discovery would have cancelled Sons of Guns too.

[LOKNLOD]

I find displays of morality by progressives in media to be quite confusing.

That's because the mass media displaying their morality is quite akin to me showing you my vagina. I don't have one, so it's just weird and you've got no idea WTF you're seeing... At best, I'm just showing you someone else's and passing it off as my own. Which is still weird.

[RoyGBiv]

The enemy is denial...
http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter/articles/2058168-Lt-Col-Dave-Grossman-to-cops-The-enemy-is-denial/

[BaiHu]

The enemy is denial...
http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter/articles/2058168-Lt-Col-Dave-Grossman-to-cops-The-enemy-is-denial/

I know people take issue with Grossman (it's the same guy, right?), but this is a spot on piece. Thanks and I'll be passing it along.

[NickA]

I know people take issue with Grossman (it's the same guy, right?), but this is a spot on piece. Thanks and I'll be passing it along.

It's almost like we think alike :cool:
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?p=106847

[BaiHu]

It's almost like we think alike :cool:
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?p=106847

Oh gawd! We ARE a hive mind here ;)

[Tamara]

Oh gawd! We ARE a hive mind here ;)

BzzzZZzzzzz! :D

[BaiHu]

BzzzZZzzzzz! :D

A throw back from an earlier post that I know you were involved in Tam:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oYl-Lm9a6U

[Shellback]

Interesting article detailing 4 incidents where gun owners helped stop the deaths of innocents.

Pearl High School, Mississippi: This incident began the morning of Oct. 1, 1997, when 16-year-old student Luke Windham entered the school with a rifle. Wearing only an orange jumpsuit and a trench coat and making no effort to hide his weapon, he initially entered the school and shot and killed two students, injuring seven others. He was stopped by assistant principal Joel Myrick, who retrieved a .45 cal. handgun from the glove box of his truck.

"I've always kept a gun in the truck just in case something like this ever happened," said Myrick at the time, who went on to become principal of Corinth High School, Corinth, Miss.

Appalachia Law School, Virginia: On Jan. 16, 2002, Peter Odighizuwa, 43, a former student from Nigeria, arrived on the campus of the school with a handgun around 1:00 p.m. and immediately killed three people, at least two of them at point-blank range. Two students - Mikael Gross and Tracy Bridges - both retrieved handguns from their vehicles and confronted Odighizuwa. As former police officers, both men were trained to subdue suspects but the fact is they were on the scene and armed, and helped prevent more killings.

Muskegon, Michigan: From the Aug. 23, 1995, issue of the Muskegon Chronicle: "Plans to slay everyone in the Muskegon, Michigan, store and steal enough cash and jewelry to feed their 'gnawing hunger for crack cocaine' fell apart for a band of would-be killers after one of their victims fought back. Store owner Clare Cooper was returning behind the counter after showing three of the four conspirators some jewelry, when one of the group pulled out a gun and shot him four times in the back. Stumbling for the safety of his bullet-proof glass-encased counter, Cooper managed to grab his shotgun and fire as the suspects fled."

Colorado Springs, Colo.: On Dec. 9, 2007, gunman Mathew Murray, 24, launched an armed attack against the parishioners of the New Life Church that ultimately left two innocent victims dead. But the toll could have been much higher, were it not for the heroic actions of former police officer Jeanne Assam from Minnesota. In an interview she said she very nearly decided not to go to church that morning but because she saw a headline on her computer indicating that two young people were murdered and a training center for Christian missionaries about 70 miles away in the Denver suburb of Arvada, she changed her mind. Murray shot a total of five people before an armed Assam shot and killed him. There were about 7,000 people at the church at the time of the attack.



Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/038404_massacres_gun_owners_defense.html#ixzz2FYCa q9pH

[BaiHu]

Another piece highlighting the hypocrisy of the media and their war on guns: http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=215107

The money quote:

You see, our government has been running guns. Illegally running guns. Jaime Avila, is just one of many examples, purchased two rifles that were found at the scene of a federal agent shot near the Arizona-Mexico border. Our government knew Mr. Avila was illegally trafficking weapons to the Sinaloa drug cartel. Nonetheless, when his purchases were called into the BATFE for clearance the government intentionally approved the transactions despite knowing they were illegal.

Two of those hundreds of weapons came back over the border and were used to murder Brian Terry. Hundreds of Mexican citizens have been murdered with these guns in total -- guns that our government illegally, intentionally and maliciously allowed to be delivered to this murderous cartel.

Mr. Avila's sentence? 57 months in prison, or just under 6 years.

When?

Two days before the Newtown Connecticut shootings.

Media outrage? Zero.

Your outrage? Did you even know about the sentence?

Guess who didn't tell you and run that story every 5 minutes on national TV -- the same media that is trying to ban your firearms!

[Dagga Boy]

No, the absolute gall is that the PERSONAL gun of the BATF SAC that ran Fast and Furious was found at the scene of the shooting that killed a Mexican beauty queen in Mexico (along with another Fast and Furious gun). That agent also violated federal law by using both a work address that he lied and claimed was an apartment, and a commercial building on another 4473. He supposedly sold the gun "on the internet"....which I guess means he didn't do a FFL transfer. SCREW these hypocrites.:mad:



Ex-ATF official's gun ends up at Mexican cartel shootout that killed beauty queen
By William La Jeunesse
Published December 19, 2012
FoxNews.com
How did a gun belonging to a former assistant special agent in charge at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives end up at a crime scene in Mexico where five died, including a Mexican beauty queen?
That's the question being asked by congressional investigators and ATF officials in Phoenix.
A FN Five-Seven semi-automatic pistol, a high powered handgun originally
restricted to military and law enforcement customers, was recovered by Mexican police at the scene of a Nov. 23 shootout between the Sinaloa Cartel and the Mexican military.
Records show the gun was purchased in January 2010 by George Gillett, the former No. 2 in the ATF office in Phoenix. Gillett now works at ATF headquarters in Washington as a liaison to the federal Bureau of Prisons.
Gillett purchased the weapon at Legendary Arms, a Phoenix gun store. On the federal form 4473 used to buy the gun, Gillett used the ATF office address, 201 East Washington, and said "Apt 940." On subsequent purchase, Gillett used a commercial address, that of a strip mall.
Both actions are illegal, since ATF regulations require buyers use their residential address.
"Lying on form 4473 is a felony and can be punished by up to five years in prison in addition to fines," Sen. Charles Grassley said in a letter Wednesday to Michael Horowitz in the Office of Inspector General. "I request that you initiate an investigation into these matters and that you specifically examine whether Mr. Gillett was the purchaser as indicated by these documents, why the forms list multiple, inaccurate residential addresses while purchasing the weapons, and how the weapon purchased on January 7, 2010 ended up in Mexico."
Gillett's gun was found in Sinaloa after a gun battle that killed Mexican beauty queen Maria Susana Gamez. Gamez was reportedly fighting alongside the cartel. Police found a weapon similar to an AK-47 and some 50 bullets next to her body. Another weapon found at the crime scene was traced to a Uriel Patino, who illegally bought more than 600 guns and is a main suspect in the controversial Operation Fast and Furious run out of the Phoenix office of the ATF.
"Why would the assistant in charge of that office be buying guns in the first place?" Grassley said in an interview with Fox News. That would raise the question of the extent to which that person might be involved in the gun trafficking that was going on and profiting from it. ... These are legitimate questions."
Gillett didn't respond to a request to comment for this story, though he has confirmed in other news interviews that he bought the gun, saying he later sold it on the Internet.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politic...queen/#ixzz2FXk8NeCk

[JM Campbell]

Wow...thanks for the info. Never saw that one coming.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[SeriousStudent]

That was exactly what I wondered. Exactly how do you sell a gun on the Internet?

Did he just mail a pistol to someone that was not the manufacturer, or not an FFL? I believe that is illegal, even for someone with Fed creds, eight?

Did it change hands through the *gasp* Gun Show Loophole??? But that would be a terrible thing to do, all the liberals say so.

Then he must have transferred it through an FFL, right? And we can just send people to check the paperwork on that, and trace the murderers! Those investigators work for the BATFE!

Oh, wait......

Let's just see how many felony counts we can get on this. I'll even propose a deal. We extradite him to Mexico, and swap him for the former Marine that is in jail in Matamoros. Do a swap on the bridge in Laredo. Sounds fair, right?

Then the Mexican government can teach him how to say "due process" in Spanish.

[NickA]

FWIW (probably nothing), heard an interview with Congressman Lamar Smith (head of the Judiciary Committee) yesterday. He flat out said any AWB bill wouldn't make make it out of the committee. Of course, he's still a politician, but maybe it's something.

[BN]

Ohio Attorney General Mike DeWine also said he would support allowing a trained school official access to a gun during the school day if he were a school board member.

Here's the link: http://www.timesleaderonline.com/page/content.detail/id/274847/Ohio-expands-school-safety-training-for-educators-.html?isap=1&nav=5019

[Le Français]

FWIW (probably nothing), heard an interview with Congressman Lamar Smith (head of the Judiciary Committee) yesterday. He flat out said any AWB bill wouldn't make make it out of the committee. Of course, he's still a politician, but maybe it's something.

It may be worth more than you think. Most bills die in committee, and the committee chair has a lot of say in whether or not the bill makes it...

[NickA]

It may be worth more than you think. Most bills die in committee, and the committee chair has a lot of say in whether or not the bill makes it...

I hope so.
Some more optimism:

http://blog.robballen.com/Post/8967/youre-getting-sunshine-rammed-down-your-throat
The gist: this is mostly a distraction to get the light off the fiscal cliff and Benghazi. And it's not our last stand, it's theirs.

[Shellback]

And out come the wingnuts. http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/12/20/update-former-marine-standing-guard-lied-about-service-record/

[orionz06]

And out come the wingnuts. http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/12/20/update-former-marine-standing-guard-lied-about-service-record/

Impersonating a Marine is just stupid. Surely he could have done slightly better.

[Le Français]

And out come the wingnuts. http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/12/20/update-former-marine-standing-guard-lied-about-service-record/

Yeah, what an embarrassment.

A uniformed, unarmed, lone individual seems like more of a target than a deterrent in an active shooter scenario.

[will_1400]

Yeah, what an embarrassment.

A uniformed, unarmed, lone individual seems like more of a target than a deterrent in an active shooter scenario.

With the way these shooters seem to think? That uniform is a fraking bull's eye.

[EMC]

Pretty well written letter for sending to your representative. Only takes a few seconds to send off an email to your congressman:

http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=189330

Edit: There is a much shorter and succinct version further down in the posts.

[SeriousStudent]

Impersonating a Marine is just stupid. Surely he could have done slightly better.

I know quite a few former Marines that would happily beat him like he owed them money, just for doing that.

[will_1400]

I know quite a few former Marines that would happily beat him like he owed them money, just for doing that.

And I know a bunch of Airmen, Sailors, and Soldiers who would find ways to help said Marines.

But on the other hand, he's allowed to make these claims because 1st Ammendment. <extreme sarcasm>

Back on topic... it's been said before, but I find it interesting that a common theme with these shooters is they've got psychological issues and are usually on some kind of psychotropic drug prior to their attacks. I tried bringing that up elsewhere, but got told by one of the people calling for a ban "I've got experience with depression so I know what I'm talking about. Just don't expect any evidence from me to back up my claims". And I'm dork enough to say "stop this planet: I want off. Moving to Andoria or Vulcan." (Yes, I'm a Trekker.)

[cclaxton]

We all know gun controls won't solve this problem.
My solution:
1) Better availability and funding of mental health programs for "at-risk" individuals;
2) Court options to detain individuals when they are determined to be an "imminent threat" to the community based on evidence (subject to standard 4th Amendment and HIPPA protections), AND mental health evaluations that diagnose mental disease that is likely to lead to violence against others. They will be released when their mental health is returned to "acceptable," subject to court review;
3) Arming individuals at public schools (I assume private schools already have that capability in most states). I suggest one armed and uniformed guard and the Principal, and two other designated staff are required to be trained and carry.
4) Allow adults over 21 who attend public universities or are staff to carry concealed, subject to all existing laws for concealed carry, and subject to demonstration of proficiency consistent with the level expected of regular law enforcement officers.

Just my humble opinion, not asking for anyone else to agree nor am I suggesting it is objectively the best solution. We know that if we had number 1 and 2 in place in Virginia, AND the system did it's job, the Virginia Tech murders would have likely been prevented.

But for sure...gun control is nothing more than a feel good solution that will do NOTHING to stop future tragedies. The gun rights community can't just sit on the 2nd Amendment and do nothing but argue against gun control. Blood is in the water now and they are going to do *something* to show they took action. At least we ought to be advocating for *something* other than gun control, and *something* that has a better chance of working in preventing massacres and murders. I support four ideas that have a chance of working politically and in-practice, while still respecting individual rights.

CC

[joshs]

CC,

We already do have commitment procedures that allow an affiant to swear that a person is a danger to himself or other and to present supporting evidence at an ex parte hearing. If supported, this will generally lead to an emergency commitment and within a few days to few weeks the respondent will be given a chance to have a full hearing where the state must prove the respondent is a danger to himself or others. At the second hearing most states use a clear and convincing evidence standard.

As far as laws preventing arming teachers, most states apply their ban on guns in schools irrespective to the private or public nature of the school. However, most of the bans have a security guard exception that would likely permit the schools to train and arm teachers.

[Shellback]

No AR-15 used at Sandy Hook?!? http://youtu.be/1CDHLBfKusU

[LHS]

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/clip/4254274

Feinstein's calling for adding semi-autos to the NFA, and instituting a buyback/confiscation program. This is not good.

[BaiHu]

Bullet proof vest you say? Oh, tell me more...

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2012/12/27/news/doc50dce5187860b303917697.txt

What??? The media got it wrong and took 2 weeks for them to figure this out??

[guymontag]

While I do not wish to dwell on the tragic events of Newtown, I did find this worthy of sharing:

Per the Hartford Courant (http://articles.courant.com/2013-01-06/news/hc-sandyhook-lanza-earplugs-20130106_1_police-cars-newtown-magazines), the madman frequently reloaded the rifle, at times expending only fifteen rounds per magazine.

[Chemsoldier]

While I do not wish to dwell on the tragic events of Newtown, I did find this worthy of sharing:

Per the Hartford Courant (http://articles.courant.com/2013-01-06/news/hc-sandyhook-lanza-earplugs-20130106_1_police-cars-newtown-magazines), the madman frequently reloaded the rifle, at times expending only fifteen rounds per magazine.
That article really dwelled on the earplug thing. No mystery to it, firing a .223 rifle freaking hurts your ears, inside a cinder block school it would be excrutiating without hearing protection.

I dont blame videogame for anything, but the frequent reloads does sound like a first person shooter TTP. In shooting real guns you would need to get some long field courses in competition or some real training to make doing that second nature.

[jon volk]

First thing that came to mind was "gamer".

[TGS]

I dont blame videogame for anything, but the frequent reloads does sound like a first person shooter TTP. In shooting real guns you would need to get some long field courses in competition or some real training to make doing that second nature.

I get your point and lol'd at the FPS gamer thing, but 15 rounds at a time sounds more like he was using 15 round magazines blocked from original 30 rounders.....since his mother was from NJ before moving to CT, it makes sense that she might have 15/30 mags as our capacity limit is 15. I can totally see the news (or police) reporting the mags as 30 round mags simply because they're 30 round mag bodies, and they didn't bother to check the actual capacity.

[guymontag]

I get your point and lol'd at the FPS gamer thing, but 15 rounds at a time sounds more like he was using 15 round magazines blocked from original 30 rounders.....since his mother was from NJ before moving to CT, it makes sense that she might have 15/30 mags as our capacity limit is 15. I can totally see the news (or police) reporting the mags as 30 round mags simply because they're 30 round mag bodies, and they didn't bother to check the actual capacity.

Interesting, however I presumed it as discovering rounds remaining within the magazine body, leading them to the conclusion of multiple reloads. Though, knowing journalistic integrity these days...

[BaiHu]

Necropost:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/03/18/sandy-hook-gunman-reportedly-compiled-massive-spreadsheet-on-previous-killings/

The gunman behind the shooting massacre at Connecticut’s Sandy Hook Elementary School reportedly compiled extensive research about previous mass murders into a spreadsheet containing roughly 500 people.
The New York Daily News reports that an obsessive Adam Lanza produced a spreadsheet 7 feet long and 4 feet wide in tiny 9-point font that required a special printer on past mass killings and attempted murders.
“We were told [Lanza] had around 500 people on this sheet,” a law enforcement veteran told the newspaper. “Names and the number of people killed and the weapons that were used, even the precise make and model of the weapons. It had to have taken years. It sounded like a doctoral thesis, that was the quality of the research.”