Martial Arts Training

[seabiscuit]

I'm considering seeking some martial arts training. As I'm going through various stages of pilot training, I'll be moving a lot and I'm not sure getting a CHL in each state will be worthwhile.

As I read threads here about ECQC and various knives and their uses, I realize that I would be woefully unprepared in hand-to-hand combat. I've had a boxing class, a standing unarmed combat class, and a grounded unarmed combat class, but it's been a while.

At my next training base, which I leave for in a week, there's at least one BJJ gym which also offers Muay Thai and MMA. Another has Taekwondo and Kempo.

What should I look for in a gym? What should I expect to pay? Which discipline would be most useful for self defense?

[TCinVA]

FWIW, there's a pretty good thread on this at TPI. I had lots of the same questions and the guys at TPI, especially Cecil B. were of tremendous help.

[Le Français]

What should I look for in a gym? What should I expect to pay? Which discipline would be most useful for self defense?

1) An instructor who is not only good at the discipline he teaches, but is also good at teaching

2) $100 per month, give or take (your area may be different)

3) I like MMA, largely because it trains you in kicking, punching, knees/elbows, clinch/takedowns and BJJ/grappling. Plus it is frequently used to great effect in competition to beat the **** out of trained and fully uncooperative (to say the least) opponents.

[YammyMonkey]

Unless the TKD/Kempo school is very different from most, the MMA gym is going to be the way to go.

That said, there are also bad MMA gyms that are basically a bunch of guys who fancy themselves fighters & who like beating up on people. Avoid that kind of place like the plague.

[seabiscuit]

FWIW, there's a pretty good thread on this at TPI. I had lots of the same questions and the guys at TPI, especially Cecil B. were of tremendous help.

I'm guessing TPI is a forum?

[NickA]

I'm guessing TPI is a forum?

Yup, it's SouthNarc's forum:

http://www.totalprotectioninteractive.com/forum/index.php
You'll have to register to see anything.

There's probably not a better place to learn about MA training, fitness, and other skills as related to self defense. Lots of very squared away dudes who've put in the work to figure out what works.

[JM Campbell]

www.totalprotectioninteractive.com

ETA: Nick beat me to it.

[seabiscuit]

Thanks, I'll check it out.

[Kimura]

1) An instructor who is not only good at the discipline he teaches, but is also good at teaching

2) $100 per month, give or take (your area may be different)

3) I like MMA, largely because it trains you in kicking, punching, knees/elbows, clinch/takedowns and BJJ/grappling. Plus it is frequently used to great effect in competition to beat the **** out of trained and fully uncooperative (to say the least) opponents.


Unless the TKD/Kempo school is very different from most, the MMA gym is going to be the way to go.

That said, there are also bad MMA gyms that are basically a bunch of guys who fancy themselves fighters & who like beating up on people. Avoid that kind of place like the plague.

These are both good posts on the subject. A couple of things; first, look to see if there are any pros in the area and where they train. Guys who do it for a living tend to seek out the best places and tend to congregate together these days. If you're in California, you've hit the lottery for MMA gyms. Socal especially, but Nocal also has some very good gyms. If you take an introductory lesson and get beat up on the first day, don't go back. It is rough and I've had more injuries than I really want to list, but no reputable school or fighter is going to beat up on a new guy. In fact, you always know who you can turn on the fight with and who you have to hold back with.

Finally, if you have the time, let me suggest you take up sayoc as well. Having knife fighting skills is, IMHO, something that's very nice to have in your defensive arsenal.

[JodyH]

I've been doing MMA/BJJ for almost a month now.
The gym I chose has teachers not instructors, there is a difference.
The guys who roll in this gym check their ego at the door, the rager who likes to keep the torque on for that extra second is not welcome here.
No matter which end of the submission you are on, your goal is pressure/discomfort not pain/injury. Start pressing the brakes when you get it locked in, tap when you feel the pressure.

[jiminsandiego]

If you have the opportunity to take some keNpo (as opposed to Kempo) I would highly recommend it. The style Ed Parker brought to the USA is a very effective way of quickly learning self defense skills. For just about any type of attack such as a grab, a choke, kick or punch kenpo teaches various ways to respond. It is practiced with an UKI or dummy who will (for instance) grab your lapel allowing you to practice a given technique on a live human. It consists of very quick controlled strikes and joint locks that attack the throat, eyes, groin, knees temples etc.. IMHO it is much more violent and effective (for life and death situations) than most other forms of "karate" (both Korean and Japanese). Most of the techniques can be used with a knife in either hand which make them even scarier.
For ground fighting (which is extremely useful) BJJ seems to be the way to go and should make you a much better fighter in a relatively short time. But for poke em in the eye, kick em in the groin kind of fighting Kenpo is hard to beat. A good teacher, or better yet several good teachers is most important and there are schools that are referred to as "TacoBell" dojos.
I'm sure you will have fun, meet some cool people and become a better "fighter" as you learn.
Cheers,
Jim

[Le Français]

No matter which end of the submission you are on, your goal is pressure/discomfort not pain/injury.

This sounds like a great way to build bad habits, both mental and physical. Especially if you're training for self-defense, your mental goal every time you apply a submission should be to apply it in such a way as to be able to inflict pain and injury if the situation called for it, rather than just pressure and discomfort. It's easy, even with terrible form, to cause pressure and discomfort. But to inflict pain and injury quickly and efficiently (in the context of self defense, not training) the technique must be performed correctly.

[JodyH]

I think that's entirely dependent on skill level.
Its way too easy for beginners to seriously hurt each other.
The combination of not knowing when to tap and not knowing the injury threshold equals hurt people. And having to sit out a few weeks because of a jacked elbow is worse than not cranking the arm bar down hard enough.
The more we learn the faster and harder we are encouraged to go at it.

Same as instructing new shooters.
We strive for perfect technique before we speed things up.
You aren't ingraining a slow draw, you're ingraining a perfect, safe draw as your foundation to build speed and aggressiveness off of.


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[Le Français]

I see what you're saying, and I agree to a certain extent.

My point is that if you are only trying to cause pressure/discomfort, there are a lot of different ways to do that, and not all of them have fight-stopping potential even if applied with maximum force. Understanding that breaking the elbow is the goal of the technique in a self defense situation that calls for it will help you set up the arm bar correctly, whereas if you mentally just wanted a tap, you'd likely start cranking it before the position was optimal.

In the gym, all you have to do to win is apply pressure. "On the street", if you only apply pressure you're most likely only wasting time and effort. Mindset is the key to bridging that gap and making sure we don't ingrain bad habits.

[JodyH]

And mindset isn't developed in the gym or on the range.
The gym and the range are to develop technique and skill.

If I used my Delica training blade with the same force, technique and intent as I would my real blade in a real fight my training partner would receive serious blunt force trauma and injuries.

Rolling/sparring/fencing/shooting {does not equal} fighting

[Le Français]

No matter which end of the submission you are on, your goal is pressure/discomfort not pain/injury.

(Emphasis added)

Goals relate to mindset, not skill, and that is the part of your post I was referring to.

[JodyH]

(Emphasis added)

Goals relate to mindset, not skill, and that is the part of your post I was referring to.
whatever... arguing semantics and parsing posts is a waste of time

[seabiscuit]

Thanks for all the advice and the good discussion. It looks like my main option in my new location will be BJJ, I'm looking forward to trying it out.

I'll keep listening here for more info.

[JDM]

I've put many training partners into Irreversible chokes, but didn't finish the choke because they were applied to my training partner. That doesn't mean the chokes were any less effective because I relaxed the pressure when my training partner tapped.

[Le Français]

I've put many training partners into Irreversible chokes, but didn't finish the choke because they were applied to my training partner. That doesn't mean the chokes were any less effective because I relaxed the pressure when my training partner tapped.

There you go. The key is to think "I need to set this up and apply it as if I needed to finish him", and then stop before that happens. If you train yourself to only meet the minimum standard (the "tap"), you will be able to get away with sloppy technique that wouldn't work if you needed to carry the technique to its destructive conclusion.

[JDM]

I see what your saying. . . And I concur completely.

There's a big difference between a "street" choke and a "competition" choke.

Good post.

[Le Français]

I see what your saying. . . And I concur completely.

There's a big difference between a "street" choke and a "competition" choke.

Good post.

Thanks. I think this is similar to the controversies about whether or not IDPA/USPSA competition ingrains habits that can be dangerous in a real fight.

If you "game" the system as much as possible, then you will ingrain habits that likely would be sub-optimal on "the street" (for example, going for a very sloppy choke you know will tap out your partner because he's a wimp as opposed to applying a solid choke that would stop a dedicated attacker if you followed through).

If you understand the pitfall that this temptation represents, you can develop the right mindset to train as realistically as possible.

EDIT: And I just realized that I'm pretty much repeating myself. Oh well.

[BaiHu]

Le Francais,

Are you a trainer/teacher? How many people have you taken through this process? If you are a teacher, how many have reached an expert rank, whatever that means in your system?

I'm curious as to how you came to your conclusions.

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[jumpthestack]

Thanks. I think this is similar to the controversies about whether or not IDPA/USPSA competition ingrains habits that can be dangerous in a real fight.

If you "game" the system as much as possible, then you will ingrain habits that likely would be sub-optimal on "the street" (for example, going for a very sloppy choke you know will tap out your partner because he's a wimp as opposed to applying a solid choke that would kill a dedicated attacker if you followed through).

If you understand the pitfall that this temptation represents, you can develop the right mindset to train as realistically as possible.

EDIT: And I just realized that I'm pretty much repeating myself. Oh well.

I agree that one should apply techniques correctly and I think no one disagrees with that. But I think it would be creepy and unhealthy to be thinking about killing someone or breaking arms when training with your partners. I have been training BJJ/grappling for 10 years and if I went to a gym where someone told me their "mental goal every time [they] apply a submission [is] pain and injury" or they're "mentally preparing to break the elbow", I would be never go back there. That doesn't sound like a healthy training environment.

[Le Français]

Le Francais,

Are you a trainer/teacher? How many people have you taken through this process? If you are a teacher, how many have reached an expert rank, whatever that means in your system?

I'm curious as to how you came to your conclusions.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

No, I am not a martial arts instructor. I have observed some of my fellow students, however, engaged in just the sort of "gaming" that I warn about. When the light bulb goes off and people realize that "Hey, I don't have to really lock in my triangle choke with this guy! He'll tap if just squeeze hard and pull his head down!", the process begins. Since solid technique takes work, many find that sloppiness is faster, especially at first. And who doesn't want to tap out the other guy in record time? The problem is that it might not work with the next guy, and if the next guy is Mr. Violin T. Phelon, well, the outcome might be dire.

Let me be clear: If someone just wants to have fun with martial arts and get as many submissions as they can and they find that the way to do it is to sacrifice good form, then that's fine. I'm not the Martial Arts Police. They are still getting hours and hours of very valuable experience rolling around with a resisting opponent, which is more training than many ever get.

[Le Français]

I agree that one should apply techniques correctly and I think no one disagrees with that. But I think it would be creepy and unhealthy to be thinking about killing someone or breaking arms when training with your partners. I have been training BJJ/grappling for 10 years and if I went to a gym where someone told me their "mental goal every time [they] apply a submission [is] pain and injury" or they're "mentally preparing to break the elbow", I would be never go back there. That doesn't sound like a healthy training environment.

Not going back to such a place is of course your right.

I think you may be slightly misunderstanding what I'm saying, which is that if you want to get the most defensive potential out of your training, you should apply every technique, and plan every technique, with as goal the application of that technique in such a way as to allow you to maximize its potential if you so choose. In a training environment, we do not so choose. But in a real fight, we may have to.

[jumpthestack]

At every gym, yes, there are some spazzy beginners who substitute power for technique and have some limited success, and then hit a plateau that they never get past unless they change their ways.

But you don't need to think about injuring anyone or have any tactical stuff in mind in order to practice a technique in the most efficient and effective way. Learning correct technique happens naturally as people progress, because if you don't do it correctly, it won't work on anyone good.

I think the way that one frames things in one's own mind is very important. In a sparring situation, trust is hugely important. Even if you're never going to actually injure someone, thinking these negative thoughts about breaking your training partner's arm and such is not conducive to creating a safe, trusting environment that you enjoy going to and that you'll stick with in the long term.

I have no problem breaking a mofo's arm if they deserve it. But I wouldn't consider thinking that way about my training partners/friends.

[Le Français]

At every gym, yes, there are some spazzy beginners who substitute power for technique and have some limited success, and then hit a plateau that they never get past unless they change their ways.

But you don't need to think about injuring anyone or have any tactical stuff in mind in order to practice a technique in the most efficient and effective way. Learning correct technique happens naturally as people progress, because if you don't do it correctly, it won't work on anyone good.

I think the way that one frames things in one's own mind is very important. In a sparring situation, trust is hugely important. Even if you're never going to actually injure someone, thinking these negative thoughts about breaking your training partner's arm and such is not conducive to creating a safe, trusting environment that you enjoy going to and that you'll stick with in the long term.

I have no problem breaking a mofo's arm if they deserve it. But I wouldn't consider thinking that way about my training partners/friends.

I've edited some of my posts to remove some statements regarding mindset that did not convey my meaning as well as they should have. Thinking about breaking someone's arm as you apply an armbar is not necessarily what I'm really advocating here. I am, for those whose goal is self defense, advocating applying every technique, and planning every technique, with as goal the application of that technique in such a way as to allow you to maximize its potential if you so choose. Part of that preparation is the mental element.

A word on visualization:

Why do some law enforcement agencies and private training organizations use photographs of real people at the range? Why introduce such "negative thoughts"? Why do we think it is important to visualize the fight, to visualize ourselves waging it and winning it for real? Perhaps because visualization is an important part of preparing for the realities of conflict. And, in an unarmed fight against a dedicated attacker, the result of the armbar you apply should not be pressure/discomfort. If you've trained yourself to view that as the goal of an armbar, that is similar to thinking of a bill drill as strictly a way to punch holes in paper. I contend that that is not the best way to mentally prepare for a potential use of force in self defense.

[BaiHu]

I've edited some of my posts to remove some statements regarding mindset that did not convey my meaning as well as they should have. Thinking about breaking someone's arm as you apply an armbar is not necessarily what I'm really advocating here.....

This is why I asked you those questions. As a teacher of martial arts, it is up to you and your knowledge of your student to determine how fast/slow someone should progress. This is an issue of pacing and balancing b/w too fast or too much vs too slow and too little.

Many chokes, if applied right and insenstitively, can crush someone's wind pipe...quickly, many locks, if applied right and insensitively, can ruin that person's joint and cost them thousands in doctor's bills and possibly even cause a lawsuit for the gym as well as the partner who caused the damage. How does that help the new guys, the owner, the dedicated folks that put all of their hard earned money and sweat into their practice when someone carelessly causes an injury and possibly loses their gym/dojo?

Now, if you have 2 very skilled students, who you don't think are pushing themselves, then that's up to the teacher to encourage a safe level of intensity.

Unlike 'stress inoculation', which SouthNarc does in ECQC, becoming an expert in a technique or system takes time and therefore has to be shown in increasing steps of complication, speed and intensity. It is my recollection that SouthNarc follows this pattern, but does it in a compressed time frame. We didn't jump into 2 on 1 evos with Sims on the first day.

I could be wrong, but if SN posted on this thread, I'd be pretty damned sure that he doesn't 'stress inoculate' every time he's working out. As a matter of fact, SN also encourages people to go get some consistent training (I picked up a Doce Pares guy) from which to fill in the rest of the picture so that you a) have a place to train in his techniques as well as other techniques that he doesn't have the time to show you and b) have a place to train that will give you the fundamentals. Ever wonder why Todd and SN don't want total beginners on their range and why they have prerequisites of some core competency with a gun?


A word on visualization:

Why do some law enforcement agencies and private training organizations use photographs of real people at the range? Why introduce such "negative thoughts"? Why do we think it is important to visualize the fight, to visualize ourselves waging it and winning it for real? Perhaps because visualization is an important part of preparing for the realities of conflict....

Why do you need to do this when you're already working with a live human? In a martial exchange, you are already working with a living, breathing, 3D 'opponent' that at first, should be allowing you to perform a technique without resistance. I'm not in the military, but from my recollection, they don't give you a rifle and ammunition on the 1st day and send you out on a battle drill with 2 firing units assaulting a single force, just to 'make it real'.

Some people come into training with a good mindset already, but many come in just trying to discover left from right foot, so mindset isn't their priority. As a teacher, you make mindset part of the curriculum, but I believe physical skill will come much faster than mindset for people.

As we've discussed in so many threads lately, most individuals are losing the 'warrior mindset' due to the aggressive legislation that only 'allows professionals' the right to protect you and your freedoms-never take those matters into your own hands. This mindset is being taught the first time a kid steps into a school these days. It takes patience and guided practice for a good amount of time, depending on the student, to replace that mindset for a more intelligent, cunning and aggressive one.

Lastly, there is no professional X on the planet, that I'm aware of, that practices all the time at 'full-tilt-boogy' speed, b/c if they did, they'd risk so much injury and bodily harm, that when game day came, half of the folks would be benched. As it is, most professional athletes and soldiers carry on with chronic, minor or major injuries on game day despite these precautions.

[jiminsandiego]

Although BJJ is ,without a doubt, very effective, I believe it is wise to consider some of it's limitations in a self defense situation. While you're on the floor choking him out, is his buddy going to knock you out with a bar stool? What if he has a broken bottle, are you going to rush in for a takedown? Is a closed fist the best weapon to use for a strike to the head? etc... Learning techniques such as eye gouges, kicks to the inside of the knee cap, open hand strikes to the windpipe, elbow strikes to the spinal chord etc can be valuable skills to learn. Foot work is also important.. a strong stance, using hip torque with strikes, getting "offline" of a straight in attack etc are all good things to learn. I guess my point is BJJ and MMA have captivated the american public (for good reason) but there is much more to martial arts than cage fighting and grappling. A good book titled "deadly karate blows the medical implications" was based on actual hospital records (and written by one of my former instructors) might convince some people of the potential effectiveness of properly executed strikes to vital targets. Most of the techniques take less than a second and the damage can be very severe. So after learning "grappling" and "kickboxing" you may be interested in some of the things Kenpo has to offer.
Cheers,
Jim

[Le Français]

This is why I asked you those questions. As a teacher of martial arts, it is up to you and your knowledge of your student to determine how fast/slow someone should progress. This is an issue of pacing and balancing b/w too fast or too much vs too slow and too little.

Many chokes, if applied right and insenstitively, can crush someone's wind pipe...quickly, many locks, if applied right and insensitively, can ruin that person's joint and cost them thousands in doctor's bills and possibly even cause a lawsuit for the gym as well as the partner who caused the damage. How does that help the new guys, the owner, the dedicated folks that put all of their hard earned money and sweat into their practice when someone carelessly causes an injury and possibly loses their gym/dojo?

Now, if you have 2 very skilled students, who you don't think are pushing themselves, then that's up to the teacher to encourage a safe level of intensity.

Unlike 'stress inoculation', which SouthNarc does in ECQC, becoming an expert in a technique or system takes time and therefore has to be shown in increasing steps of complication, speed and intensity. It is my recollection that SouthNarc follows this pattern, but does it in a compressed time frame. We didn't jump into 2 on 1 evos with Sims on the first day.

I could be wrong, but if SN posted on this thread, I'd be pretty damned sure that he doesn't 'stress inoculate' every time he's working out. As a matter of fact, SN also encourages people to go get some consistent training (I picked up a Doce Pares guy) from which to fill in the rest of the picture so that you a) have a place to train in his techniques as well as other techniques that he doesn't have the time to show you and b) have a place to train that will give you the fundamentals. Ever wonder why Todd and SN don't want total beginners on their range and why they have prerequisites of some core competency with a gun?



Why do you need to do this when you're already working with a live human? In a martial exchange, you are already working with a living, breathing, 3D 'opponent' that at first, should be allowing you to perform a technique without resistance. I'm not in the military, but from my recollection, they don't give you a rifle and ammunition on the 1st day and send you out on a battle drill with 2 firing units assaulting a single force, just to 'make it real'.

Some people come into training with a good mindset already, but many come in just trying to discover left from right foot, so mindset isn't their priority. As a teacher, you make mindset part of the curriculum, but I believe physical skill will come much faster than mindset for people.

As we've discussed in so many threads lately, most individuals are losing the 'warrior mindset' due to the aggressive legislation that only 'allows professionals' the right to protect you and your freedoms-never take those matters into your own hands. This mindset is being taught the first time a kid steps into a school these days. It takes patience and guided practice for a good amount of time, depending on the student, to replace that mindset for a more intelligent, cunning and aggressive one.

Lastly, there is no professional X on the planet, that I'm aware of, that practices all the time at 'full-tilt-boogy' speed, b/c if they did, they'd risk so much injury and bodily harm, that when game day came, half of the folks would be benched. As it is, most professional athletes and soldiers carry on with chronic, minor or major injuries on game day despite these precautions.


My point, it has been missed.

[BaiHu]

If we are speaking adequacy of technique vs "sport technique" then perhaps I did; your "mindset" points threw this dog off the hunt.

I'm not a firm believer in sport technique but I understand its place like I understand IDPAs place. Just not my bag, baby.

That square us on the same side of the argument?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[Le Français]

If we are speaking adequacy of technique vs "sport technique" then perhaps I did; your "mindset" points threw this dog off the hunt.

I'm not a firm believer in sport technique but I understand its place like I understand IDPAs place. Just not my bag, baby.

That square us on the same side of the argument?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2


Yes, a "gamer" mindset has its place, of course, for those who have winning the game as a goal. They will also pick up valuable skills in the process, no doubt.

But to maximize the self-defense potential, I don't train for pressure/discomfort. I go into submissions thinking about what the potential of the technique is, and how best to apply it so that I could carry it out if I needed to, on a wide range of different opponents. That's a change in mindset, and it might not equate to a change in technique necessarily compared to the actions of a "gamer". But in some cases, when I'm tempted to cut corners because I know I can get a submission faster on a certain opponent if I do, I remember that if it was for real such corner-cutting could have serious consequences. Call it "training for the worst case scenario", if you will.

I think I'm running out of ways to restate my point.

[BaiHu]

Yes, a "gamer" mindset has its place, of course, for those who have winning the game as a goal. They will also pick up valuable skills in the process, no doubt.

But to maximize the self-defense potential, I don't train for pressure/discomfort. I go into submissions thinking about what the potential of the technique is, and how best to apply it so that I could carry it out if I needed to, on a wide range of different opponents. That's a change in mindset, and it might not equate to a change in technique necessarily compared to the actions of a "gamer". But in some cases, when I'm tempted to cut corners because I know I can get a submission faster on a certain opponent if I do, I remember that if it was for real such corner-cutting could have serious consequences. Call it "training for the worst case scenario", if you will.

I think I'm running out of ways to restate my point.

The bold part puts us eye to eye. The italicized/underlined part just gives me pause if I or one of my students was training with you. I totally understand clearly where you are coming from now, I think where you are at is good, but it can make for a dangerous beginner's mindset and that's all I was trying to clarify.

[Le Français]

Understood. Thanks for the enlightening exchange of ideas.

[jiminsandiego]

So...He's standing with his arms crossed (minding his own business) and a tweaked out nut case wants to "ground and pound" him. The drugged out crazy charges, not knowing he has a knife in his dominant hand ( because he had already "smelled" the aggression). He has the option of slicing up though his neck into his face or maybe down across the side of his neck, or perhaps grabbing his outstretched arm with his empty hand and cutting the meat off his forearm like a ham bone. He leaves the scene quickly and quietly (hoping there were no witnesses). The druggy goes to the hospital or into a bag.
To me this is "martial arts" in it's purist form. Ancient ways of protecting oneself. Before lawyers or police. Before the Gracies started kicking ass in the UFC.. and before there were firearms.
In a cage fight between two pro athletes..MMA all the way. But I feel it is a shame that the ancient ways of self defense are being forgotten. Over the centuries, effective techniques were improved upon and ineffective techniques were quickly discarded. Ground fighting is not new or just Brazilian (Roman gecko, Russian shoot fighting, college wrestling etc..) and has obviously proven effective... but for an average Joe being attacked by whoever with whatever wherever I feel that some of the "ancient" ways are worthy of study.
Just some thoughts from some guy,
Jim

[Robert Mitchum]

Just do Chin Ups & the Ab Roller.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boLl8rGhJvE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6B_rE2J3Iw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyWf8EoeksA

[Nik the Greek]

Thoughts on Krav Maga in addition to BJJ? I'm thinking a reputable gym, of course, not the McDojos.

[BaiHu]

Thoughts on Krav Maga in addition to BJJ? I'm thinking a reputable gym, of course, not the McDojos.

Personally, I have a problem with the Krav Maga system, b/c it is very paint by numbers. If attacker A does exactly B attack then respond with C. This obviously means nothing if you a) don't have good awareness, b) good reflexes, c) knowledge of how the body telegraphs movement, d) how to position yourself to minimize damage to yourself, e) good footwork and I could go on to z and back to aa, but you get my point.

This is not to say that you won't get something out of it or that other 'complete systems' don't also teach A with B then C, it's that a complete system should share with you a foundation that allows you to see these altercations with better 'vocabulary' and 'comprehension', if you take my meaning.

Hope that helps.

[Kimura]

So...He's standing with his arms crossed (minding his own business) and a tweaked out nut case wants to "ground and pound" him. The drugged out crazy charges, not knowing he has a knife in his dominant hand ( because he had already "smelled" the aggression). He has the option of slicing up though his neck into his face or maybe down across the side of his neck, or perhaps grabbing his outstretched arm with his empty hand and cutting the meat off his forearm like a ham bone. He leaves the scene quickly and quietly (hoping there were no witnesses). The druggy goes to the hospital or into a bag.
To me this is "martial arts" in it's purist form. Ancient ways of protecting oneself. Before lawyers or police. Before the Gracies started kicking ass in the UFC.. and before there were firearms.
In a cage fight between two pro athletes..MMA all the way. But I feel it is a shame that the ancient ways of self defense are being forgotten. Over the centuries, effective techniques were improved upon and ineffective techniques were quickly discarded. Ground fighting is not new or just Brazilian (Roman gecko, Russian shoot fighting, college wrestling etc..) and has obviously proven effective... but for an average Joe being attacked by whoever with whatever wherever I feel that some of the "ancient" ways are worthy of study.
Just some thoughts from some guy,
Jim

How so? Where in there do you believe the "ancient ways" are being forgotten? UFC Lightweight Champion Ben Henderson has roots in TKD; Former Lightheavyweight Champion Lyoto Machida has roots in traditional Shotokan. Former Heavyweight and Lightheavyweight Champion Randy Couture has roots in Greco Roman etc etc. The new guys are simply the next evolution. Guys like Jon Jones and Rory MacDonald don't have stylistic boundaries, they're true mixed martial artists. Their transitions are better because they think of it all as one. It's not an add on to something. It's evolution and it's good for the sport and the arts.

Also, IMO, it's not the arrow, it's the indian. Good fighters are smart fighters. They're adaptable. Nothing works all time. No one art is better than the other. Almost everything has a place and a time. This is what makes MMA, or any style for that matter that's open to new techniques, interesting. It's the evolution. It's the lack of boundaries that makes everyone better. There's is not one thing or one technique in a fight that is appropriate for every situation. The amount of variables in a fight against another living being are astronomical. And whether it's in a cage or a ring or on the street, it's a brutal undertaking. But the goal is exactly the same; finish it as quickly as possible with the least amount of damage to yourself.

IMO, a good self defense program includes MMA, Sayoc, firearms training, weight training and running/cardio. So personally, I believe in a system that involves a lot of different options for different scenarios.

Just my thoughts and YMMV.

[Nik the Greek]

It's interesting that you say that BaiHu. My experience, though limited, was that a basic technique was taught, then expanded on. There was an emphasis on the idea that a single technique is not applicable in all situations. My Kung Fu (Northern Shaolin and Praying Mantis) was very 'paint by numbers' in contrast. My problem with Krav Maga was that there seemed to be too much emphasis on immediate and overwhelming aggression to resolve an encounter, and I didn't always feel prepared to deal with a trained attacker.

It's relatively young, and I've had hard time finding practitioners that have applied the concepts consistently in the course of real world practice.

[BaiHu]

Nik,

That could easily be explainable just by differences in teachers and teaching styles. I think every art taught well should have the following:

Solo practice where you are just learning the moves in the air.

Partner practice where you have a willing partner to help you learn how the body moves and reacts to strikes, locks, etc. This is where the paint by numbers or 'written music' can be found.

Partner practice with active resistance/non-compliance where both of you are trying to 'win'. I think of this as improvisational music like jazz. The heat of the exchange will show you where your fundamentals are weak or your strategy/tactics are non-existent, etc.

One of the things I think SouthNarc does better than anyone is his MUC (managing unknown contacts). MUC'ing is probably one of the most important skill sets that most people do not teach.

In an MMA gym, kickboxing gym or even my own classes that I teach, there is so much ground you are trying to cover with so many different types of people spending different amounts of time at various stages of life, that it is nearly impossible to cover all the needs of your students and the wants that an instructor has for his/her students.

After ECQC, I asked SN if I could begin to use some of his techniques regarding MUC'ing, b/c if you don't enter into a fight the right way, you're already up sh*%s creek without a paddle.

Most systems already 'put you in the fight', so you've already agreed to wage war on each other, but life isn't that clear cut. Maybe you can talk your way out, maybe you can posture your way out, maybe you can buy enough time to recruit other bystanders to help save your skin, maybe you just need to haul ass, but the last thing you really want to do is fight unless you have to, IMO. But when that time comes, you'd better be Patton riding on the back of a hellhound, b/c you never know who or what you just got yourself involved in. I say Patton, b/c you'd better not just be crazy/strong/fast, you'd better be smart about when, what and how you defend yourself.

[Kimura]

Most systems already 'put you in the fight', so you've already agreed to wage war on each other, but life isn't that clear cut. Maybe you can talk your way out, maybe you can posture your way out, maybe you can buy enough time to recruit other bystanders to help save your skin, maybe you just need to haul ass, but the last thing you really want to do is fight unless you have to, IMO. But when that time comes, you'd better be Patton riding on the back of a hellhound, b/c you never know who or what you just got yourself involved in. I say Patton, b/c you'd better not just be crazy/strong/fast, you'd better be smart about when, what and how you defend yourself.

Very well thought out. We've strayed a bit from the original intent, but well stated.

[Dropkick]

I'm considering seeking some martial arts training.
...
What should I look for in a gym? What should I expect to pay? Which discipline would be most useful for self defense?

I think there is three areas worth focusing on: Striking, Grappling, Groundwork

I would venture to say it's very tough to find one art/system that covers all three areas adequately. So there is a good chance you'd have to study one thing at a time, or try to split your time between several.

Also, arts/systems that involve regular free-sparring (in a competitive, but safe) give you the chance to see what works and doesn't for you. I think that's very important as it helps you learn how to handle/apply pressure from/to another human being. The last thing you want is to be in a real situation, and find out your five finger death punch doesn't work or getting whoop'd on so bad you never have a chance to even try it.

If you're interested in what has worked for me between the first time I took ECQC and then second time, feel free to PM me. I'd rather not get involved with the whole "my kung-fu is better than your kung-fu" thing.

[SweetScienceOfShooting]

Personally, I have a problem with the Krav Maga system, b/c it is very paint by numbers. If attacker A does exactly B attack then respond with C.

Based on my experience, I would disagree with your characterization of Krav Maga as "very paint by numbers". You seem to be painting with a real broad brush here. Any shortcomings you perceive of Krav as a whole could easily be chalked up to variations among schools/instructors like you mention in post #42.

Definitely at the beginning levels it can seem paint by numbers as you start to learn the curriculum but that could be said of many styles. I have never witnessed an instructor be so dogmatic as to say that you must do exactly B in response to A. As I have continued training my instructors have always been clear to point out that what you start out learning is a foundation and a suggested progression, but that in a fight anything can happen so be prepared to adjust.

Nik, re: your observation about an emphasis on overwhelming aggression: I would agree that is a characteristic of the Krav training I've experienced. The school I attend is associated with Krav Maga World Wide and the philosphy they teach is: 1) address the immediate danger, 2) countertack asap, 3) finish. I'll leave it up to the individual to decide if that tracks with the way they want to train.

[BaiHu]

Based on my experience, I would disagree with your characterization of Krav Maga as "very paint by numbers". You seem to be painting with a real broad brush here. Any shortcomings you perceive of Krav as a whole could easily be chalked up to variations among schools/instructors like you mention in post #42.

Definitely at the beginning levels it can seem paint by numbers as you start to learn the curriculum but that could be said of many styles. I have never witnessed an instructor be so dogmatic as to say that you must do exactly B in response to A. As I have continued training my instructors have always been clear to point out that what you start out learning is a foundation and a suggested progression, but that in a fight anything can happen so be prepared to adjust.

Nik, re: your observation about an emphasis on overwhelming aggression: I would agree that is a characteristic of the Krav training I've experienced. The school I attend is associated with Krav Maga World Wide and the philosphy they teach is: 1) address the immediate danger, 2) countertack asap, 3) finish. I'll leave it up to the individual to decide if that tracks with the way they want to train.

I understand your point of view and Krav Maga has its place much like MCMAP, but these two systems, IMO, have to be re-engineered for the civilian fighter. The civilian fighter doesn't always have the tools nor the tactical backup that is relied upon in any military or law enforcement environment. Different goals set different guidelines. The military, depending on its environment and end goal may look for the quick kill, or share some similarities with the police, which follows a use of force continuum, but a civilian.....may need something different.

[UNK]

"A good book titled "deadly karate blows the medical implications" was based on actual hospital records (and written by one of my former instructors) might convince some people of the potential effectiveness of properly executed strikes to vital targets. "


http://www.amazon.com/Deadly-Karate-Blows-Implications-Literary/product-reviews/0865680779/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

[BaiHu]

Big fan of strikes, especially properly executed with weight and good stance work behind them.

All of this takes time and proper guidance from a reputable instructor/teacher/sensei/sifu. Pick your flavor.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[will_1400]

I've been training in isshin-ryu karate for 10 years and I've been working at an MMA gym for a few months so I'm probably biased.

I'm not a fan of MMA for many situations. Yes, it's good to know how to grapple, but coming from a striking background, I often find I have to restrain myself from punching my partner during BJJ practice whenever I find openings (which are numerous if it's pure grappling). I can't help but think that those openings are lethal if the other guy has a knife on him. Not to mention if he's got friends who can curb-stomp you while you're trying to choke him out.

Also, at the gym I'm at, they seem to focus on one opponent and don't do any "reverse" work. By "reverse" I mean fighting southpaw if you're usually right-handed. In fact, I was admonished for trying to practice reversed by the muay thai coach.

On the other hand, a good MMA gym can teach the basics of good self defense in short order while the more classical arts can take almost a year so it's a trade-off.


As always, your mileage may vary.

[Kimura]

"A good book titled "deadly karate blows the medical implications" was based on actual hospital records (and written by one of my former instructors) might convince some people of the potential effectiveness of properly executed strikes to vital targets. "


http://www.amazon.com/Deadly-Karate-Blows-Implications-Literary/product-reviews/0865680779/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

No one is saying good striking isn't effective, but it's only one part of the puzzle.


I've been training in isshin-ryu karate for 10 years and I've been working at an MMA gym for a few months so I'm probably biased.

I'm not a fan of MMA for many situations. Yes, it's good to know how to grapple, but coming from a striking background, I often find I have to restrain myself from punching my partner during BJJ practice whenever I find openings (which are numerous if it's pure grappling). I can't help but think that those openings are lethal if the other guy has a knife on him. Not to mention if he's got friends who can curb-stomp you while you're trying to choke him out.

Also, at the gym I'm at, they seem to focus on one opponent and don't do any "reverse" work. By "reverse" I mean fighting southpaw if you're usually right-handed. In fact, I was admonished for trying to practice reversed by the muay thai coach.

On the other hand, a good MMA gym can teach the basics of good self defense in short order while the more classical arts can take almost a year so it's a trade-off.


As always, your mileage may vary.

Of course if you're in grappling or BJJ class, there's going to be openings for strikes or kicks because you're not working on or against those aspects. It's a learning environment for one part of the whole. The point is to work on certain techniques. You're keeping yourself from striking them, but they're not striking or kicking you either.

Also, as said earlier; a good fighter is a smart fighter. Good fighters are adaptable. Nothing works in every situation, which is the point of being well rounded. Understanding your surroundings and your circumstances are paramount in fighting.

[KravPirate]

I have read the previous posts and figured it was a good time to chime in. I coach for a KM program that extends globally. Notice I stated "coach" and not "instructor". Most importantly, I am a student of KM and self defense. I have been training in KM roughly 8 years. Keep in mind, this is my opinion and not necessarily the opinion of my fellow coaches but I am sure if they were on this board they would tend to agree. First, if any instructor tells you that KM is the answer for everything, find another school. KM is a fierce self defense program if taught properly and includes supplemental training. I will not get into details of KM but will state a couple of things about KM. KM teaches two very imperative skills as a whole as it relates to surviving an attack; 1) quick and devastating techniques that allow you to inflict as much damage as quickly as possible when confronted by an attacker and 2) an aggressive mindset to not stop until you have neutralized the threat or have incapacitated an attacker to give you enough time to create safe distance and retreat. KM is not designed for agreed upon mutual engagements although it doesn't hurt if you do find yourself in a mutual fight (i.e., fights agreed upon in a controlled environment).

What lots of KM programs ignore is the supplemental aspect. Supplemental training should include clinch work, ground work and boxing/kickboxing techniques. All of these skills should be combined and tested in a controlled sparring session. There is no better way to test your skills than to fight with folks at various skill levels. Most would be surprised at what beginners can do when sparring if they have the aggressive mindset. The aggressive mindset is one of the toughest skills to gain. Also, training should be repetitive. One thing I tell students is that you do not know KM unless you can defend under stress. Techniques will fail but drilling techniques over and over under stress will minimize the possibilities of techniques failing. If a technique fails, don't stop, keep going, try something else. Nothing is worse than stopping in the middle of an attack. I could go on and on but I will leave it there.

Train Hard!

[BaiHu]

Excellent post KravPirate.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[SweetScienceOfShooting]

I understand your point of view and Krav Maga has its place much like MCMAP, but these two systems, IMO, have to be re-engineered for the civilian fighter. The civilian fighter doesn't always have the tools nor the tactical backup that is relied upon in any military or law enforcement environment. Different goals set different guidelines. The military, depending on its environment and end goal may look for the quick kill, or share some similarities with the police, which follows a use of force continuum, but a civilian.....may need something different.

I agree that non-LEO/MIL will operate under different circumstances. Krav Maga Worldwide has a separate division dedicated to training for LEO/MIL, so I'd conclude that lots of time and effort by many qualified instructors has been dedicated to tailor the system to apply to situations faced by LEO, MIL, and civilian.



KravPirate, that was a real good post on Krav, thanks for sharing your perspective as an experienced coach.

[Nik the Greek]

Don't get me wrong KP, I think aggression and "warrior" mindset is key. I just meant that there seemed to be shortage of tactics for anticipating the reactions of trained opponents such as can be found in JKD or higher level Muay Thai. I *believe* that it remains an effective system for a smart combatant, I just don't have any examples of real world proof.

On that note, I think that the warrior mindset might be at the heart of the debate that occurred earlier in the thread. Many systems teach effective techniques, not all teach mindset. That's one of the things I really like about Krav.

[will_1400]

I have a love/hate impression of Krav. It has some great ideas, but some of the techniques I've seen from people who claim to be krav teachers make me think "WTF?". Example: I've seen someone who claimed to be a krav instructor say that a good defense against a knife-wielding opponent is a high kick to the head. When I pointed out that this puts your femoral artery in easy reach of the bad guy, he looked at me with the same expression a dog has when it's trying to figure out the answering machine. On the other hand, I've seen some krav guys who are just plain brilliant, if a bit biased against classical martial arts.

Anyways, if taught properly, krav is a hell of a system to use and it's on my short list of recommendations for people who need to learn to fight in a hurry.

[KravPirate]

Nik, that's why we, as coaches, cross train in MT, BJJ, etc. and we strongly encourage our KM students to do the same. The creators of the program have many years of experience in multiple disciplines.

Will, I agree. Some KM programs teach some questionable weapon defenses, especially knife defenses. That is going to vary based on the KM affiliation.

[jiminsandiego]

It appears that Brian B took a portion of a post I wrote that did not seem to "go through"(???) and added a link to the book. Thanks Brian B for the link. Maybe you could repost my post? Anyway... it's an interesting book. I realize that striking is just one part of the equation but I feel some people may not appreciate some aspects of using different body parts as weapons on various vulnerable targets. Learning about these vulnerable spots and effective ways of striking them was, for me, a very interesting aspect of "the equation".
Jim

[jc000]

Hey, just wanted to chime in. I respectfully think some people are overthinking things here a little.

I can't see where MMA isn't one of the optimal martial arts training paths. Free sparring in MMA (in my experience) can be as close as you can get to an actual confrontation. I'm confused by the statement regarding punching a partner during BJJ--when training MMA you ARE punching/striking both standing up and on the ground and plain jane BJJ defenses won't work on their own. MMA is not BJJ.

I really don't buy in to the "BJJ doesn't work in the streets" line of thinking. Anything works at the right time--it's all situational. As mentioned before by other posters, having a well-rounded plan to include physical conditioning along with realistic stand-up/ground fighting/weapons training should give most a versatile toolset to defend yourself.

[Leozinho]

I've been training in isshin-ryu karate for 10 years and I've been working at an MMA gym for a few months so I'm probably biased.

I'm not a fan of MMA for many situations. Yes, it's good to know how to grapple, but coming from a striking background, I often find I have to restrain myself from punching my partner during BJJ practice whenever I find openings (which are numerous if it's pure grappling). I can't help but think that those openings are lethal if the other guy has a knife on him. Not to mention if he's got friends who can curb-stomp you while you're trying to choke him out.





Hey, just wanted to chime in. I respectfully think some people are overthinking things here a little.

I can't see where MMA isn't one of the optimal martial arts training paths. Free sparring in MMA (in my experience) can be as close as you can get to an actual confrontation. I'm confused by the statement regarding punching a partner during BJJ--when training MMA you ARE punching/striking both standing up and on the ground and plain jane BJJ defenses won't work on their own. MMA is not BJJ.

I really don't buy in to the "BJJ doesn't work in the streets" line of thinking. Anything works at the right time--it's all situational. As mentioned before by other posters, having a well-rounded plan to include physical conditioning along with realistic stand-up/ground fighting/weapons training should give most a versatile toolset to defend yourself.

Yes, it seems Will_1400 has used BJJ interchangeably with MMA, when it isn't. (Was that a typo or mistake?) BJJ may be a good starting point, but there's no doubt that BJJ will leave you wide open for a variety of strikes.

MMA > BJJ for self defense. How could anyone disagree?

-----------------------------

I think the case for Krav or other "reality fighting" arts comes with the introduction of weapons (usually just weapon defense and not how to employ your weapon - a drawback) and the various 'dirty tricks' that are illegal in the ring but completely ethical in a self defense situation.

However, for me the question is if the lack of 'aliveness' in, say, Krav compared to MMA is worth it. Ultimately, the degree of 'aliveness' will differ from gym to gym, but plenty of Krav classes are full of women there to lose weight (Ironically, these classes may be taught by an overweight woman. I speak from direct experience.) Whatever sparring that is done in those classes will rarely replicate the intensity of a MMA gym with a few amateur fighters keeping people honest. I'm not sure that the fact that the Krav class will introduce a knife defense is enough to recommend it over a MMA gym.

[Dropkick]

In my opinion, a large majority of the people who seek out any sort of self defense training aren't looking for honesty, they're looking for something that will give them a quick "feel-good" fix to whatever they fear.

Which in turn makes it tough for someone starting out who really is serious. It's easy to get suckered into some system that isn't pressure tested and not even realize it.

[will_1400]

Yes, it seems Will_1400 has used BJJ interchangeably with MMA, when it isn't. (Was that a typo or mistake?) BJJ may be a good starting point, but there's no doubt that BJJ will leave you wide open for a variety of strikes.

MMA > BJJ for self defense. How could anyone disagree?

-----------------------------

I think the case for Krav or other "reality fighting" arts comes with the introduction of weapons (usually just weapon defense and not how to employ your weapon - a drawback) and the various 'dirty tricks' that are illegal in the ring but completely ethical in a self defense situation.

However, for me the question is if the lack of 'aliveness' in, say, Krav compared to MMA is worth it. Ultimately, the degree of 'aliveness' will differ from gym to gym, but plenty of Krav classes are full of women there to lose weight (Ironically, these classes may be taught by an overweight woman. I speak from direct experience.) Whatever sparring that is done in those classes will rarely replicate the intensity of a MMA gym with a few amateur fighters keeping people honest. I'm not sure that the fact that the Krav class will introduce a knife defense is enough to recommend it over a MMA gym.


I used BJJ as an example of one of the weaknesses I've observed in MMA. A couple other weaknesses include what appears to be a complete emphasis on one-on-one confrontations against someone in your weight class, a lack of emphasis on being equally skilled as both an orthodox fighter and a southpaw, etc. Don't get me wrong: MMA's great for learning how to be dangerous in a hurry which is a huge advantage over the more classical arts. On the other hand, the one-on-one emphasis and focusing solely on learning how to fight right or left-handed are some issues I've observed at the gym I've been training at lately.

[Leozinho]

I used BJJ as an example of one of the weaknesses I've observed in MMA. A couple other weaknesses include what appears to be a complete emphasis on one-on-one confrontations against someone in your weight class, a lack of emphasis on being equally skilled as both an orthodox fighter and a southpaw, etc. Don't get me wrong: MMA's great for learning how to be dangerous in a hurry which is a huge advantage over the more classical arts. On the other hand, the one-on-one emphasis and focusing solely on learning how to fight right or left-handed are some issues I've observed at the gym I've been training at lately.


Oh, I thought you were saying you weren't a fan of MMA for many situations because, coming from a striking background, you often find you have to restrain yourself from punching your partner during BJJ:confused: practice.




I'm not a fan of MMA for many situations. Yes, it's good to know how to grapple, but coming from a striking background, I often find I have to restrain myself from punching my partner during BJJ practice whenever I find openings (which are numerous if it's pure grappling). .

You do realize if it was MMA practice (not BJJ) your partner would be defending against strikes and try not give you those openings?


As far as the argument of "MMA doesn't prepare you for multiple opponents" - I guess I'd have to ask if you are sure that your preferred system actually prepares you to fight a single opponent. I ask because I see many people worried about the multiple attackers scenario when they can't even handle a single attacker.

[Furthermore, keep in mind that MMA training doesn't have to be clinch --> takedown --> ground and pound/submit (a sequence that terrifies the person worried about multiple attackers.) You can use a takedown defense/"wrestling in reverse" to keep standing, which would be the better option for a multiple attacker scenario.]

[will_1400]

Oh, I thought you were saying you weren't a fan of MMA for many situations because, coming from a striking background, you often find you have to restrain yourself from punching your partner during BJJ:confused: practice.



You do realize if it was MMA practice (not BJJ) your partner would be defending against strikes and try not give you those openings?


As far as the argument of "MMA doesn't prepare you for multiple opponents" - I guess I'd have to ask if you are sure that your preferred system actually prepares you to fight a single opponent. I ask because I see many people worried about the multiple attackers scenario when they can't even handle a single attacker.

[Furthermore, keep in mind that MMA training doesn't have to be clinch --> takedown --> ground and pound/submit (a sequence that terrifies the person worried about multiple attackers.) You can use a takedown defense/"wrestling in reverse" to keep standing, which would be the better option for a multiple attacker scenario.]


To start, I just used BJJ as an example as part of that post. Considering so many people in MMA appear to me as thinking that striking is only a means to get into grappling range, that overemphasis is dangerous. And, yes, I know that you can do wrestling in reverse. That's the main reason I'm training at an MMA gym: so I can be better equipped to handle someone who can negate my strikes and to give me options against someone who is a better striker than me.

As for the rest... First off, I'm just stating observations that I've made through personal experience at an MMA gym I train at now. Second, I've done MMA workouts. I nearly KO'd a guy from the bottom because he was expecting me to try to clinch instead of hitting him with elbows to the temple and jaw. From what I've seen at several gyms, the focus is on dealing with other MMA fighters in their weight class. Heck, I keep getting admonished for stuff that's "against the rules" or doing something like training southpaw (I'm right-handed when it comes to martial arts) and so on.

Finally, I know my system works because I've used it to protect myself against multiple attackers.

And I'd just like to close this out by saying that I'm not saying MMA doesn't work, but I do see some potential weaknesses and wanted to express my opinion based on a martial artist who has been training for 10 years and has had more than his share of altercations that ended up with punches thrown. Nothing more.

[jc000]

You do realize if it was MMA practice (not BJJ) your partner would be defending against strikes and try not give you those openings?


As far as the argument of "MMA doesn't prepare you for multiple opponents" - I guess I'd have to ask if you are sure that your preferred system actually prepares you to fight a single opponent. I ask because I see many people worried about the multiple attackers scenario when they can't even handle a single attacker.

[Furthermore, keep in mind that MMA training doesn't have to be clinch --> takedown --> ground and pound/submit (a sequence that terrifies the person worried about multiple attackers.) You can use a takedown defense/"wrestling in reverse" to keep standing, which would be the better option for a multiple attacker scenario.]

Thanks.

[Leozinho]

As for the rest... First off, I'm just stating observations that I've made through personal experience at an MMA gym I train at now. Second, I've done MMA workouts. I nearly KO'd a guy from the bottom because he was expecting me to try to clinch instead of hitting him with elbows to the temple and jaw.


Congrats. That's how it's supposed to work. Training partner makes a mistake and puts himself in a bad position. You punish him for it. He learns from it. It's no different from catching people in arm bars and chokes when they put themselves in bad positions. If you are consistently rocking your training partner from the bottom, I'd say it's more of a reflection of your training partner (or his coach) than MMA itself.

[/QUOTE]





From what I've seen at several gyms, the focus is on dealing with other MMA fighters in their weight class. Heck, I keep getting admonished for stuff that's "against the rules" or doing something like training southpaw (I'm right-handed when it comes to martial arts) and so on.



While you may have self protection in mind, others are there for MMA as a sport. You have to follow "the rules," as you put it. If you can't live with that, go somewhere else.

What's the interest with training southpaw? Is that a TMA thing?

[will_1400]

Congrats. That's how it's supposed to work. Training partner makes a mistake and puts himself in a bad position. You punish him for it. He learns from it. It's no different from catching people in arm bars and chokes when they put themselves in bad positions. If you are consistently rocking your training partner from the bottom, I'd say it's more of a reflection of your training partner (or his coach) than MMA itself.





While you may have self protection in mind, others are there for MMA as a sport. You have to follow "the rules," as you put it. If you can't live with that, go somewhere else.

What's the interest with training southpaw? Is that a TMA thing?[/QUOTE]

And when the sport guys start giving their word as gospel for self protection? This last gym I recently joined is pretty good about saying "in competition, this isn't legal but here's something you can do in the street", so it isn't so bad. But I've yet to see a lightweight spar a middleweight or light heavyweight outside of BJJ rolls.

Training your weak side is a TMA thing. The idea is you don't have to do anything to "set up" your power hand or side since both sides are as equally trained as you can manage. It's the same concept as learning how to shoot WHO with a pistol. Also, learning how to fight southpaw when you're orthodox can shed new understanding of a technique.

[Nik the Greek]

While ground fighting was a weak point, the KM gym i trained at emphasized take down defense. I sometime take a garage class with a friend who competes on the amateur level MMA circuit and I can verify that those defenses were effective in that setting. He also organizes multi opponent fights where a new combatant enters mid-bout to force whoever is winning to react.it's been very helpful supplemental training.

[BaiHu]

What's the interest with training southpaw? Is that a TMA thing?

Training southpaw is a much bigger deal in unarmed combat in comparison to gun training. For example, TLG, IIRC trains WHO (left hand for him) about 5-10% of the time. However, if you are close enough to an attacker that you cannot access your weapon of choice, you better have equal or close to equal power, dexterity and confidence in your weak hand.

This is where TMA excels. B/c MMA, Boxing, etc are a sport with specific rules of engagement, they do have some technical weaknesses/blind sides, however, before you paint me as a TMA fanbois only (25 years in and 15 years teaching full time), MMA, boxing, etc have one great advantage: they spend more time hardening the body to work comfortably while being under stress and getting a least a bit of snot knocked out of them.

Since I have a wide range of ages that I teach, I have a wide range of concerns to contend with and therefore have other means of providing stress enough to make sure a technique is strong w/o risking the injuries that a MMA gym might be less concerned about due to the bulk of participants being in their 20's.

Yes, I'm making a generalization and it's fairly educated generalization since a) they recover faster, b) they are young and less experienced in reality and therefore c) feel they are more invincible.

Yes, I've been there and the s&*t I used to do between 18-26 was retarded and risky. I was still doing flips back then....needless to say, I had to pass that torch and we won't talk about why ;)

[Cecil Burch]

Training southpaw is a much bigger deal in unarmed combat in comparison to gun training. For example, TLG, IIRC trains WHO (left hand for him) about 5-10% of the time. However, if you are close enough to an attacker that you cannot access your weapon of choice, you better have equal or close to equal power, dexterity and confidence in your weak hand.

This is where TMA excels.


I have to disagree. This is where almost all TMAs fall short.

The only time the orthodox/southpaw thing comes into play is at outside (striking) range. Once the fight devolves to an attached entanglement, it is a moot point since there is no lead. Both hands are in play equally so it is irrelevant what "lead" you are used to hitting from.

And while most TMAs spend time working some ambidexterity in striking, very, very few spend anytime at all in the clinch or grappling ranges that MMA and grappling arts spend the majority of time training, and this is where the most dangerous H2H confrontations happen (the ECQC range). MMA/BJJ/Judo/wrestling have a huge advantage over TMA, not just because of some body hardening effect, but because they more efficiently train clinch and grappling skills.

[Cecil Burch]

From what I've seen at several gyms, the focus is on dealing with other MMA fighters in their weight class. Heck, I keep getting admonished for stuff that's "against the rules" or doing something like training southpaw (I'm right-handed when it comes to martial arts) and so on.



In 32 years of doing martial arts, and being heavily involved in MMA from it's beginnings, I have never seen a legitimate MMA gym that does that. Every gym I have trained at, taught at, mentored, or taught at had everyone work with everyone. As a matter of fact, it is a desired norm because it gives even the pro fighters different things to work. A heavyweight can get good experience working clinch with a fast middleweight, while a welterweight gets a heavier working load doing the same thing against a heavyweight.

[JodyH]

In 32 years of doing martial arts, and being heavily involved in MMA from it's beginnings, I have never seen a legitimate MMA gym that does that. Every gym I have trained at, taught at, mentored, or taught at had everyone work with everyone. As a matter of fact, it is a desired norm because it gives even the pro fighters different things to work. A heavyweight can get good experience working clinch with a fast middleweight, while a welterweight gets a heavier working load doing the same thing against a heavyweight.
The gym I'm at starts each night out with a "king of the hill" sparring session.
Everyone who's there that night participates.
Each night has a "theme", one night might be gloved up and punches/kicks are allowed, the next night might be strictly grappling until shoulders hit the mat.
First two get on the mat and you go until the instructor calls it or someone taps.
Loser steps to the back of the line, winner stays on the mat.
You're "king of the hill" until someone knocks you off.
We do this until everyone has had two or three rounds on the mat.
You spar with everyone from 250# to 150# and varying skill levels/specialties.
Great stuff and a good learning experience.

[BaiHu]

Sounds like a hell of a lot of fun!

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[Duces Tecum]

A friend of mine is a master (in his art, that's a rank north of 8th deg black) of Kung Fu San Soo and a guro of Lameco Knife. The story he told me one evening is this:

"I was a 2nd or 3rd degree black and asked my San Soo teacher to show me knife techniques. He said that knife techniques were the same as hand techniques, but with a blade. My truth-sense knew that was wrong. It wasn't that he was lying, he believed what he said. But it was wrong.

"A couple of years later I found a teacher and began studying, on the side, under a guro of Filipino stick. I'd never seen a stick fight on the street, so I requested to be taught knife only. He complied. I was under him 5 years. I learned that there is no unarmed technique (that I knew of) that could consistently defeat a good knife-man. None. A knife, in the hands of a practiced man and at touching distances, is the equal of a pistol. Interestingly, if you can learn Filipino knife you can use the same techniques unarmed. Basically, knife techniques make a good unarmed, although standard unarmed don't make good knife techniques. If I were to chose only one Art, it would probably be Filipino knife."

I don't know anything more than he told me, but thought I'd pass it on to you with the hope that it might be useful.

[dnittler]

In the immortal words of Miagi, "Walk left side of road... Fine. Walk right side of road... Fine... Walk down middle of road... Squash! Just like grape."

A good MMA gym can teach you to defend yourself.
A good Brazillian Jiu Jitsu gym can teach you to defend yourself.
A good Krav gym can teach you to defend yourself.

I spent a year doing the MMA thing, but it just isn't for me. I've been studying under a great teacher for over year and a half in BJJ and have really been getting a lot out of it. I hope to continue on in this sport, walking the path laid done by the grand masters.

I've found that it takes a minimum of two days a week to gain and maintain skills.

If you find a group that truly respects each other and newcomers, is passionate about their art, has a leader that is learning from the students, makes training fun, is always evolving, and is a place you look forward to going, you've done well. These are more important than style; Bruce Lee said, "there is no style."

[will_1400]

A friend of mine is a master (in his art, that's a rank north of 8th deg black) of Kung Fu San Soo and a guro of Lameco Knife. The story he told me one evening is this:

"I was a 2nd or 3rd degree black and asked my San Soo teacher to show me knife techniques. He said that knife techniques were the same as hand techniques, but with a blade. My truth-sense knew that was wrong. It wasn't that he was lying, he believed what he said. But it was wrong.

"A couple of years later I found a teacher and began studying, on the side, under a guro of Filipino stick. I'd never seen a stick fight on the street, so I requested to be taught knife only. He complied. I was under him 5 years. I learned that there is no unarmed technique (that I knew of) that could consistently defeat a good knife-man. None. A knife, in the hands of a practiced man and at touching distances, is the equal of a pistol. Interestingly, if you can learn Filipino knife you can use the same techniques unarmed. Basically, knife techniques make a good unarmed, although standard unarmed don't make good knife techniques. If I were to chose only one Art, it would probably be Filipino knife."

I don't know anything more than he told me, but thought I'd pass it on to you with the hope that it might be useful.


He's right in the sense that the human body only moves in so many ways and putting a knife in the hand doesn't change that. On the other hand, the way you approach dealing with a knife wielding opponent is much different than it is against an unarmed opponent for obvious reasons. I'll definitely agree that dealing with weapons is a whole 'nother ball game than an unarmed attacker.