Fear of carrying with a round in the chamber (striker, no safety)

[Shockmike]

Using P365xl no manual safety

I have taken 2 holster draw classes and have gotten certified to draw and fire at my local range

I am confident in my ability to draw and reholster safely and regularly practice

My concern is the gun itself, and I think that's probably due to ignorance. It's unsettling to think that there's nothing stopping a primed striker from impacting the primer and going off without me touching it.

Probably tens of thousands of civilians and police officers carry with a round in the chamber using striker fire guns with no safety.

Anxious about the physical and legal consequences.

How can I get over my anxiety of carrying this way?

[Suvorov]

3 options:
Get a 365 with a manual safety
Start carrying with a round in the chamber, after a while you will get used to it.
Carry on an empty chamber and accept the fact that in many instances where you need your gun - it will be useless.

As for carrying with a round in the chamber, as you have already mentioned - it is done hundreds of thousands of times each day with no issues. In fact the Air Marshals carry loaded G19s daily on aircraft with no issues. If it was a problem you would have heard about it by now.

Based on the opinion of many more knowledgeable than me, the P365 has proven to be a safe gun to carry and has not experienced a rash of aids like its larger cousin has.

[WobblyPossum]

The P365 has an internal firing pin block that prevents the striker from contacting the primer should the sear fail and release the striker. The firing pin block would catch the lug at the bottom of the striker and stop any further forward movement. It’s not a perfect design. Theoretically, if the entire lug were to break off bottom of the striker the firing pin block wouldn’t be able to stop the striker. I’ve seen a photo of a broken lug online but haven’t actually heard of any reports of this happening. There are probably two million P365s in private hands. If this was a common problem, we’d know.

[CraigS]

I have no knowledge or experience w/ a 365 but both my wife's and my M&Pcompacts have "Duty/Carry' trigger kits from Apex installed. This makes the pre-travel significantly heavier than stock while leaving the final trigger pull needed to fire the gun just a little heavier than stock. Maybe similar is available for the 365.

[Zincwarrior]

The P365 has an internal firing pin block that prevents the striker from contacting the primer should the sear fail and release the striker. The firing pin block would catch the lug at the bottom of the striker and stop any further forward movement. It’s not a perfect design. Theoretically, if the entire lug were to break off bottom of the striker the firing pin block wouldn’t be able to stop the striker. I’ve seen a photo of a broken lug online but haven’t actually heard of any reports of this happening. There are probably two million P365s in private hands. If this was a common problem, we’d know.

Additional points:
Make sure you have a nonflexible kydex and very good leather holster that covers the trigger fully. This will help: 1) insure nothing bad happens; 2) provide additional emotional piece of mind that nothing will happen.

Practice drawing and reholstering 50 times with an unloaded but cocked firearm (aka fully safe but can tell if its accidentally triggered). This will help: 1) insure nothing bad happens; 2) provide additional emotional piece of mind that nothing will happen. Also look at the holster when holstering.

Carry for two weeks in same fashion: unloaded with NO ammunition in the gun whatsoever, but cocked. Practice holstering and unholstering every day a few times. I did this when I went from empty chanmber to 1911 cocked and locked, and again from cocked and locked to striker only. By about the third or fourth day you should be a lot more comfortable.
If still not comfie then get a pistol with a manual safety and use it (after practicing). Nothing wrong with want a manual safety young man. You do what you are comfortable with.

[feudist]

As I understand your post, your concern isn't you activating the trigger accidentally but presumably some impact causing the striker to fall and detonate the primer?
Does this concern arise from the controversy over the P320?
If so, that is not an issue with the P365 as it is a different design(and imo, still an open question on the P320) or other modern pistols.

The overwhelming majority of gun discharges are because the trigger was deliberately, though mistakenly pulled by the operator.
Point blank. End of story. Much lying, equivocating and ass covering ensues afterwards.
Almost all of the rest involve bad practices involving improperly designed equipment, careless techniques of re-holstering and inappropriate equipment/clothing.

I leave open the possibility of deeply weird concatenations of multiple outlier events cascading into a fault free discharge...only because we live in a quantum universe.

With a dedicated, correctly designed holster and habitual, ritualized and attentional observances of Cooper's gunhandling safety(not range safety) rules you'll be safe as houses.

On the flip side of the coin, drawing and racking the slide is a demonstrably less safe manipulation leading to "uncommanded" discharges and is highly prone to causing malfunctions, and very sloppy one handed shooting as evidenced by surveillance videos.

[HCM]

Using P365xl no manual safety

I have taken 2 holster draw classes and have gotten certified to draw and fire at my local range

I am confident in my ability to draw and reholster safely and regularly practice

My concern is the gun itself, and I think that's probably due to ignorance. It's unsettling to think that there's nothing stopping a primed striker from impacting the primer and going off without me touching it.

Probably tens of thousands of civilians and police officers carry with a round in the chamber using striker fire guns with no safety.

Anxious about the physical and legal consequences.

How can I get over my anxiety of carrying this way?

Are you anxious about:

1) the striker dropping by itself ?
2) a foreign object getting into the trigger guard during holstering or re-holstering?
3) you putting your finger on the trigger and discharging it when you shouldn’t ?

# 1 is not a concern with the 365. Internally it is a different and more conventional design that the 320. If I recall correctly, the manual safety on the 365 when engaged, blocks the striker by physically preventing the sear assembly from releasing the striker.

#2 is a combination of software/training issue and holster selection. Striker guns need quality holsters that provide hard protection for the trigger /trigger guard area. Soft holsters or those that collapse and don’t allow one handed re-holstering should be avoided.

#3 is a Software/training issue.

The 365 is a modular gun and can be retrofitted with a manual safety which could help mitigate some of your concerns but you will need to make a commitment to training to use the safety and to actually using it.

Having a manual safety is not good or bad, you just need to choose to train /use it, or not. The only issue is half - assing it.

[dontshakepandas]

The P365 has an internal firing pin block that prevents the striker from contacting the primer should the sear fail and release the striker. The firing pin block would catch the lug at the bottom of the striker and stop any further forward movement. It’s not a perfect design. Theoretically, if the entire lug were to break off bottom of the striker the firing pin block wouldn’t be able to stop the striker. I’ve seen a photo of a broken lug online but haven’t actually heard of any reports of this happening. There are probably two million P365s in private hands. If this was a common problem, we’d know.

This. While it could happen, it isn't very likely. One note on this - the manual safety version of the gun does not provide any additional prevention of this occurring.

I still prefer to carry a Glock since the design does not have one failure point that could bypass all of the internal safeties.

[piefairy]

I don't like to carry without a safety, its just my personal preference. The good news is you can always add one to the 365. Unlike the 320, all 365's are safety cut, just not installed. They are simple to swap in. You will either need a new grip or have to modify yours. But if it brings you piece of mind, its well worth the minor expense.

https://www.sigsauer.com/p365x-manual-safety-parts-kit-black.html

[Glenn E. Meyer]

If you are truly concerned, load the gun with a chambered dummy round on top for a bit. See if you pull the trigger, the striker unleashes (very, very unlikely), etc.

I'm of the school that manual safeties are not needed with today's quality guns. As HCM train up with whatever you choose.

[Suvorov]

If you are truly concerned, load the gun with a chambered dummy round on top for a bit. See if you pull the trigger, the striker unleashes (very, very unlikely), etc.

I'm of the school that manual safeties are not needed with today's quality guns. As HCM train up with whatever you choose.

I’ve seen this mentioned before by others but I don’t understand the logic of loading a dummy round instead of just leaving the chamber empty? An empty chamber is every bit as safe as a dummy round is and the dummy round is just one more thing to get in the way when franticly charging the weapon.

What am I missing?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The OP is worried about having a chambered round. So I thought he could have snap cap to rack in, pretending to load the gun, and then see if he pulls the trigger or the gun spontaneously. That's all. I suppose racking the gun and then putting a mag after the rack would serve.

[Shockmike]

Yeah I'm essentially concerned with the gun firing on its own. Some defect causing the striker to hit the round. I am not worried about me failing and causing it to happen. I'm not worried about the 365 specifically, just all striker fired guns in this situation. Seems like the consensus is that there are safety mechanisms in place to prevent that and something catastrophic would have to happen for the gun to fire on its own

[Glenn E. Meyer]

While the consensus is that the vast majority of strikers are safe, rather than carrying a 'neutered' gun - switch it out to something else. Plenty of DA/SA options. Or a revolver - you cannot be fearful of your gun. The evidence is against you but if that is not good enough, ditch it.

[Suvorov]

The OP is worried about having a chambered round. So I thought he could have snap cap to rack in, pretending to load the gun, and then see if he pulls the trigger or the gun spontaneously. That's all. I suppose racking the gun and then putting a mag after the rack would serve.

Thanks. I was just curious. The first time I heard it mentioned was by a guy on another forum who defined Dunning-Kruger so I discounted it. Seeing you post it made me think there was actually reason and intelligence behind the idea.

[jeep45238]

Yeah I'm essentially concerned with the gun firing on its own. Some defect causing the striker to hit the round. I am not worried about me failing and causing it to happen. I'm not worried about the 365 specifically, just all striker fired guns in this situation. Seems like the consensus is that there are safety mechanisms in place to prevent that and something catastrophic would have to happen for the gun to fire on its own

A striker gun without a tensioned striker is extremely safe. The Glock is an extremely popular platform around here for it's ease of use and safety. Practically every striker gun I'm aware of has a firing pin block safety that can't be activated without a trigger press, but the Glock platform with a partially cocked striker (not enough to detonate a primer), a tabbed trigger (additional drop safety), and the cruciform (combo sear/trigger bar essentially) is held internally in such a way that the striker can not slip off the striker without the trigger moving to the rear. This is for factory guns.

Double/Single hammer guns, when decocked, have absolutely no energy in the firing pin/striker combo. They do have additional manual of arms for making them safe (the de-cocking procedure) which is a little different for every gun, but you have to remember to do this when you're done shooting/before you holster. Some can be unsettling at first (fast acting), others are under more of a controlled lowering motion.

Double action only handguns are the cat's meow on this. Absolutely no stored energy in the hammer/striker/firing pin, plus the internal safeties, and no additional controls to worry about forgetting an order-of-operation on. I really dig the LCR, but there's plenty of options that touch this that are great to consider in both semi-auto and revolver realms.

[WobblyPossum]

A striker gun without a tensioned striker is extremely safe. The Glock is an extremely popular platform around here for it's ease of use and safety. Practically every striker gun I'm aware of has a firing pin block safety that can't be activated without a trigger press, but the Glock platform with a partially cocked striker (not enough to detonate a primer), a tabbed trigger (additional drop safety), and the cruciform (combo sear/trigger bar essentially) is held internally in such a way that the striker can not slip off the striker without the trigger moving to the rear. This is for factory guns.

Double/Single hammer guns, when decocked, have absolutely no energy in the firing pin/striker combo. They do have additional manual of arms for making them safe (the de-cocking procedure) which is a little different for every gun, but you have to remember to do this when you're done shooting/before you holster. Some can be unsettling at first (fast acting), others are under more of a controlled lowering motion.

Double action only handguns are the cat's meow on this. Absolutely no stored energy in the hammer/striker/firing pin, plus the internal safeties, and no additional controls to worry about forgetting an order-of-operation on. I really dig the LCR, but there's plenty of options that touch this that are great to consider in both semi-auto and revolver realms.

Just to correct one thing, the Glock striker does have enough energy to set off a primer when in its partially cocked state. It’s not possibly for a stock Glock to ignite a primer without a trigger press but that’s not because it starts partially cocked. It’s because of the redundancies inherent in how a Glock functions.

[Joe in PNG]

Pretty much all the modern mainline striker guns are good to go. The 320 may have issues in that area, but the 365, Glock, S&W's, VP9, et al should be good to go as long as you don't carry stupid (shoved down yer crack with no holster, or using a cheap floppy one as noted above).

[DDTSGM]

Yeah I'm essentially concerned with the gun firing on its own. Some defect causing the striker to hit the round. I am not worried about me failing and causing it to happen. I'm not worried about the 365 specifically, just all striker fired guns in this situation. Seems like the consensus is that there are safety mechanisms in place to prevent that and something catastrophic would have to happen for the gun to fire on its own

It seems to me that the easiest way to set your mind at ease would be to get a pistol that isn't striker fired. It really sounds as if you would be more comfortable with a traditional DA/SA (double action to single action) pistol.

I don't know your reasons for sticking with the 365 when you are so hesitant about the safety of striker fired pistols. Perhaps your consideration of sunk costs in the 365 and associated gear is holding you back. Pretty sure you could sell the pistol and most of the pistol specific gear for little loss, if any. Regardless, is the worry that you are experiencing and likely will continue to experience, worth the slight loss you would incur by switching to a new platform?

Seems like the consensus is that there are safety mechanisms in place to prevent that and something catastrophic would have to happen for the gun to fire on its own. This is a true statement.

Try looking at in perspective. Think of all the mechanical devices, which have been designed/engineered to keep us safe without any real thought on our part. As an example, I'm thinking about things like the inertia locks which lock our seatbelts under rapid deceleration. These things keep us safe everyday without any conscious thought on our part. Even though a firearm should never be carried or used without thought, I hope you get my point.

As a responsible firearms user you should also maintain your firearm and insure all it's safeties are operational. This is easy enough to do with a little research, and should also give you peace of mind once you see how the safeties on a Glock, for example, work together to prevent unintentional discharges.

[WDR]

A firearm with an empty chamber is marginally better for self defense than a large paperweight. If you're going to need it you will probably need it right now.

I roll around with a round chambered in my Glocks pointed at my junk 90% of the time... and I don't sweat the mechanics of the gun keeping me safe. I'd really not feel bad about doing the same with most modern striker guns, (besides the 320, though I hear the newest guns are GTG now). I do use an SCD, and I pay attention when holstering the gun.

Get some (more) training. Get a good holster. Chamber a round. Don't be a dumbass. Don't worry about it.

[Zincwarrior]

Yeah I'm essentially concerned with the gun firing on its own. Some defect causing the striker to hit the round. I am not worried about me failing and causing it to happen. I'm not worried about the 365 specifically, just all striker fired guns in this situation. Seems like the consensus is that there are safety mechanisms in place to prevent that and something catastrophic would have to happen for the gun to fire on its own

Sounds like you want a manual safety. No issue, get one with a manual safety.

[Tensaw]

Yeah I'm essentially concerned with the gun firing on its own. Some defect causing the striker to hit the round. I am not worried about me failing and causing it to happen. I'm not worried about the 365 specifically, just all striker fired guns in this situation. Seems like the consensus is that there are safety mechanisms in place to prevent that and something catastrophic would have to happen for the gun to fire on its own

If I am being honest, there are times when, while carrying either a P365 or PDP AIWB, and I go into a squatting position or bending hard at the waist, I realize the muzzle is pointing at some deep meat, and were the gun to discharge at the moment, it would be game over... Not a fun thought. That risk is ameliorated, as has been said, through the design of the pistol itself and using a quality JMCK holster. Beyond that, you pays your money and takes your chances.

ETA: I know AIWB is the hotness, and that is my preferred carry method by far. But I "grew up" carrying with IWB or OWB at 3 o'clock clock - and that is still a valid means of carrying. You might consider doing that for a period of time until you gain more competence/confidence and then move back to AIWB.

[Suvorov]

.

ETA: I know AIWB is the hotness, and that is my preferred carry method by far. But I "grew up" carrying with IWB or OWB at 3 o'clock clock - and that is still a valid means of carrying. You might consider doing that for a period of time until you gain more competence/confidence and then move back to AIWB.

And honestly with a P365 3 o’clock IWB is super easy.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Just to beat the dead horse again - saw this on Greg Ellifritz's Friday posting: https://www.ammoman.com/blog/the-theory-and-practice-of-israeli-carry/

A good review and the usual arguments. https://www.ammoman.com/blog/the-theory-and-practice-of-israeli-carry/

[dontshakepandas]

A firearm with an empty chamber is marginally better for self defense than a large paperweight. If you're going to need it you will probably need it right now.

I roll around with a round chambered in my Glocks pointed at my junk 90% of the time... and I don't sweat the mechanics of the gun keeping me safe. I'd really not feel bad about doing the same with most modern striker guns, (besides the 320, though I hear the newest guns are GTG now). I do use an SCD, and I pay attention when holstering the gun.

Get some (more) training. Get a good holster. Chamber a round. Don't be a dumbass. Don't worry about it.

ASP had a video a few days ago where a store clerk was carrying with an empty chamber and ended up winning the fight. They also outline how it put him at a huge disadvantage and he had to bypass several opportunities to get the gun into the fight that would have been available to him if he had a round in the chamber.


https://youtu.be/UV4osEmV66o?si=NYIFzQDVc2kydLql

While you could still win your gunfight without a chambered round, it puts you at a huge disadvantage so I'd take the necessary steps to be comfortable with a loaded chamber.

As I mentioned earlier, I greatly prefer Glock for AIWB carry because of the internal safety redundancies and the availability of the Striker Control Device. If Glocks were no longer an option for some reason, the P365 would be my second choice and I would carry that with a loaded chamber as well, but would closely check the lug on the striker for damage each time I cleaned the gun.

[Navin Johnson]

TDA or Revolver or safety

At minimum 3-4 o’clock

Get training

The rest is on you

Good luck!

[Caballoflaco]

If 365’s were just randomly firing people would be getting shot when their bedside gun or car guns just randomly went off in the night in addition to guns going off in their holsters.That hasn’t happened, and if it was happening there would be a 200 page thread on it here.

Rather than wasting money getting a new pistol and support gear etc. I would suggest just not wasting your time worrying about something that doesn’t happen. The p365 is one of the most sold pistols in America and we have 6 years of history showing they don’t just randomly discharge.

[Joe in PNG]

If 365’s were just randomly firing people would be getting shot when their bedside gun or car guns just randomly went off in the night in addition to guns going off in their holsters.That hasn’t happened, and if it was happening there would be a 200 page thread on it here.

Rather than wasting money getting a new pistol and support gear etc. I would suggest just not wasting your time worrying about something that doesn’t happen. The p365 is one of the most sold pistols in America and we have 6 years of history showing they don’t just randomly discharge.

And as noted by many people in the other thread, chasing platforms is a great way to become a mediocre shooter with no money- as many of us have expensively learned.
Better to spend your money & effort on shooting it gooder.

[G19Fan]

The P365 is an inherently safe design.

That said get a safety if you want a safety.

[HeavyDuty]

The P365 is an inherently safe design.

That said get a safety if you want a safety.

This. My preference for the safety version is for holstering, not because I’m worried it’s gonna just go off.

[ViniVidivici]

Yeah I'm essentially concerned with the gun firing on its own.

This is not a physical possibility with a decent quality gun that's in good condition.

I am 100% certain that none of my guns are ever going to "fire on their own", because they are quality, and in good condition.

[ECK]

Yeah I'm essentially concerned with the gun firing on its own. Some defect causing the striker to hit the round. I am not worried about me failing and causing it to happen. I'm not worried about the 365 specifically, just all striker fired guns in this situation. Seems like the consensus is that there are safety mechanisms in place to prevent that and something catastrophic would have to happen for the gun to fire on its own

I don’t fault you for being concerned, and to be honest I share some of those concerns especially when carrying AIWB bc the gun is pointed at some things I would rather not lose (twig and berries, femoral artery, plus a bunch of other important things in my lower abdomen).

That said, I do carry AIWB but there’s some things I do (and don’t do) to help mitigate some of the risks:

1) I don’t holster a loaded gun while seated. There’s usually no need to, and doing so can introduce some increased likelihood of the gun going off (shirt gets caught in the trigger guard, an obstruction in the holster hits the trigger, etc.).

2) I don’t draw while seated if I don’t have to, and to date I have not had to draw a loaded firearm while seated. Hopefully I never get into a situation where I have to. I’ve shot plenty of matches where we start seated in a car (and have to fire from inside the car) but I’ve never run into a situation where the gun was holstered. The gun is usually resting on the dash or console, probably for this reason.

3) If I am seated and need to holster the gun I’ll stand up first.

4) If I am seated in my car and need to remove my gun for some reason, I’ll remove the holster with gun in it so the trigger is never exposed.

5) As has been mentioned earlier, a good holster is important, not some flexible fabric job or an old leather holster that has lost it’s rigidity. I also have a foam wedge attached to the skin side of my AIWB that tilts the muzzle away from my frank and beans when I am standing upright. The wedge does two things: a) it pushes the grip into my gut to reduce printing, and b) it tilts the muzzle forward so if god forbid the gun does go off, I’ll just get burned by the muzzle blast and ruin my pants, but not shoot myself (hopefully).

6) When I do holster the gun (always while standing) I push my hips forward a little (like you do when you pee to avoid hitting your feet) to further tilt the muzzle forward and hopefully not point it at anything I deem important (feet notwithstanding).

Beyond that, keep the gun in good working order, practice frequently, and remain vigilant about what you’re doing.

[D-der]

I've carried one version or another of a 365 AIWB in a JMCK myself for years, as noted prior, well vetted guns in a well thought out quality holster.
I certainly understand the concern, due to back problem's I transitioned from a 1911 3:30 to a plastic 9 AIWB about 8 years ago, it wasn't quick and easy, it was uncomfortable and some what nerve racking (I likened it to carrying a loaded 1911 safety off), at first I carried on an empty chamber around the house intermittently then a couple hour's intermittently through my work day with an LCP in my pocket until finally getting comfortable or at least able to tolerate both AIWB as well as the chambered round with no safety. As others have noted up thread, sometimes a thought crosses my mind when I'm crouched down to look under a car, doing yard work etc. but personally, if I couldn't be comfortable with a chambered round in a proven well vetted striker gun I'd consider a DA/SA or train until competent with a snubby to carry with my primary, which I think is a pretty good idea any way, options are good.

[Bucky]

Admittedly, the psychological thought of carrying a firearm that is storing the energy to fire at any time isn’t unreasonable by any means. The fact of the matter is, you must rely and trust the safety devices that keep it from doing so. Many of the more modern designs have proven to do such. And we are also familiar with a few of those that are at least a little suspect. If you find you can’t get your head around it, A traditional double action pistol is still a viable option. Unfortunately, they tend to be on the bigger side when compared to their striker counterparts.

[Navin Johnson]

Some people aren't built to carry guns and that's ok

Telling him it's safe and get over it is not going to help. He has to do what he can handle at this point of his journey

I'm glad he has at least thought it out. There is a lot of people carrying platforms they likely shouldn't (seeing people on the you tube jamming strikers in AIWB holsters after shot strings)

He probably needs to start with a different platform or he just won't feel safe or won't pack.

[Joe in PNG]

Some people aren't built to carry guns and that's ok
Telling him it's safe and get over it is not going to help. He has to do what he can handle at this point of his journey
I'm glad he has at least thought it out. There is a lot of people carrying platforms they likely shouldn't (seeing people on the you tube jamming strikers in AIWB holsters after shot strings)
He probably needs to start with a different platform or he just won't feel safe or won't pack.

Sometimes, it takes time and experience to realize that things are safer that one thinks. For instance, during my first flight with an instructor, I thought that the slightest misapplication of the controls would cause the Cessna 152 to go dramatically screaming out of control. A few lessons later, when working through stalls, I found that was absolutely not the case.

[LittleLebowski]

Using P365xl no manual safety

I have taken 2 holster draw classes and have gotten certified to draw and fire at my local range

I am confident in my ability to draw and reholster safely and regularly practice

My concern is the gun itself, and I think that's probably due to ignorance. It's unsettling to think that there's nothing stopping a primed striker from impacting the primer and going off without me touching it.

Probably tens of thousands of civilians and police officers carry with a round in the chamber using striker fire guns with no safety.

Anxious about the physical and legal consequences.

How can I get over my anxiety of carrying this way?

“Training.”

[BillSWPA]

One more vote for carrying at the 3:30 position. This position is comfortable, fast, and concealable.

If you use a manual safety, carry with the safety engaged all the time so that you are disengaging while drawing every time. This way finding the safety in the wrong position at the wrong time will never hurt you.

[Shockmike]

“Training.”

Did you miss the part where I mentioned training twice?

[ECK]

Did you miss the part where I mentioned training twice?

Training is good. And hopefully training leads to good habits which become second nature.

People that study Risk Management like to say that risk is a function of probabilities and consequence. In other words, what’s the likelihood of something bad happening, and how bad is it? I think we can all agree, an unintended discharge is going to have bad consequences so that one we can’t influence as much but maybe there are ways we can keep it from being a catastrophic life-altering event.

IMO where we have the most influence is reducing the likelihood of an ND in the first place.

As I mentioned in my post above, there’s some things I do and don’t do when I carry AIWB. Mostly those practices/habits are intended to reduce the likelihood of the gun going off, especially when it’s pointed at my junk. Putting a wedge on the holster to tilt the muzzle outwards is an attempt to reduce the consequence a little where if the gun goes off in my pants it only muzzle burns my willy rather than perforating it, but my main goal is to avoid the ND in the first place, aka reduce the probability of it happening.

[Mercworx]

A striker gun without a tensioned striker is extremely safe. The Glock is an extremely popular platform around here for it's ease of use and safety. Practically every striker gun I'm aware of has a firing pin block safety that can't be activated without a trigger press, but the Glock platform with a partially cocked striker (not enough to detonate a primer), a tabbed trigger (additional drop safety), and the cruciform (combo sear/trigger bar essentially) is held internally in such a way that the striker can not slip off the striker without the trigger moving to the rear. This is for factory guns.

Double/Single hammer guns, when decocked, have absolutely no energy in the firing pin/striker combo. They do have additional manual of arms for making them safe (the de-cocking procedure) which is a little different for every gun, but you have to remember to do this when you're done shooting/before you holster. Some can be unsettling at first (fast acting), others are under more of a controlled lowering motion.

Double action only handguns are the cat's meow on this. Absolutely no stored energy in the hammer/striker/firing pin, plus the internal safeties, and no additional controls to worry about forgetting an order-of-operation on. I really dig the LCR, but there's plenty of options that touch this that are great to consider in both semi-auto and revolver realms.

This and an SCD is why it remains my primary platform, though I have two P365s as well.


To OP this is a feeling that will pass with time + knowledge. As you learn about the safety features and carry this worry will dissipate.

Once I actually started taking training courses is when I developed a very healthy respect for safety features due to reholstering in AIWB.

[Drogo Bunce]

While it's true that for the most part, modern striker guns without manual safeties are good to go with a quality holster, I'm a fan of manual safeties. Given enough time and repetitions, everyone will eventually have a brain-fart and leave their finger on the trigger when holstering, or get too "grabby" on the draw and hit the trigger unintentionally. Manual safeties guard against these lapses. The flip side is that they introduce the possibility of the shooter failing to disengage them in a bad moment and getting...a surprise. The math favors thumb safeties, but I'll spare you that. Plus they act sort of like "Millennial Anti-Theft Devices" on cars, i.e. stick shifts. The kids generally aren't familiar with them, so you're less likely to be shot with your own pistol if/when. Or if a young child finds your loaded pistol somehow.

Safety or no-safety, each works IF-AND-ONLY-IF you are trained and disciplined accordingly. I've chosen Safety, so most of my pistols have them, and I train/compete with them. If I ever pick up a non-safety-equipped pistol in a crisis situation, I'll make an unnecessary thumb movement, but no big deal.

If you do decide to add a thumb safety, I recommend the Armory Craft model. It's what I use. I flubbed a safety disengagement once in training with the factory, low profile safety a while back. This one is easier to hit reliably (haven't missed yet), but still carries well. They are easy to install too, just search YouTube.


https://www.armorycraft.com/product-page/armory-craft-sig-sauer-p365-extended-safety

[Clusterfrack]

We've all driven on a road with no guardrail, 10' from a big cliff, right? If we accidentally jerked the steering wheel, it's bad news. The little monkey inside us gets scared just thinking about it. But with solid driver's ed and experience, we can do it and it's no big deal. And it's not actually dangerous. Carrying a loaded handgun is the same.

There are ways to make carry safer, and this thread has already been through many of them.

I'm not a fan of carrying guns with short light triggers.

I holster mindfully, slowly, and deliberately, with my hips tilted so that I don't muzzle myself as I insert the gun.

I only use quality Kydex holsters that fit my gun without gaps or interference with the trigger.

I do not carry guns with thumb safeties. Forgetting to activate/deactivate the TS adds a potential choke point that I'd rather avoid. A heavier, longer trigger (and a SCD if available) solves the problem.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I'm interested in the 'math'. Got a research article on that?

Since an anecdote is part of a data set - the only time I was almost shot was by a guy with a 1911. He loaded, didn't put on the safety, had his finger and ....

A foot away from my foot and inches from the SO. I was scorekeeper. I've seen quite a few folks forget their safeties or flip them on, many more times than a nonsafety equipped ND in many years of doing this.

[Bucky]

We've all driven on a road with no guardrail, 10' from a big cliff, right? If we accidentally jerked the steering wheel, it's bad news. The little monkey inside us gets scared just thinking about it. But with solid driver's ed and experience, we can do it and it's no big deal. And it's not actually dangerous. Carrying a loaded handgun is the same.

There are ways to make carry safer, and this thread has already been through many of them.

I'm not a fan of carrying guns with short light triggers.

I holster mindfully, slowly, and deliberately, with my hips tilted so that I don't muzzle myself as I insert the gun.

I only use quality Kydex holsters that fit my gun without gaps or interference with the trigger.

I do not carry guns with thumb safeties. Forgetting to activate/deactivate the TS adds a potential choke point that I'd rather avoid. A heavier, longer trigger (and a SCD if available) solves the problem.

Car analogy: True, but depending on the year and model car you drive, there maybe safeties that prevent you from going off the road. Ironically, while cars are adding more and more safety features, guns are removing them.

[DDTSGM]

I do not carry guns with thumb safeties. Forgetting to activate/deactivate the TS adds a potential choke point that I'd rather avoid. A heavier, longer trigger (and a SCD if available) solves the problem.

I've been roasted before about my thoughts on 1911's/SAA's for duty carry.

Keeping that in mind I think that repeating the task numerous times properly is important. and then once that pattern is driven home, add complexity to the task - generally speed and/or movement. Throughout this process it is important that the shooter has immediate feedback and corrective instruction, if required. Positive reinforcement is equally as important.

This is one reason that I don't like SAA pistols for duty carry, across the board very few agencies devote the time to ensure adherence to the running of the safety and there is usually little opportunity for evaluation of on street performance

My point being that in order to use an SCD correctly, you have to go through essentially the same process.

Once you've gone through the learning/application process correctly engaging, disengaging the safety becomes like putting your foot on the brake pedal and coming to a stop.

[Clusterfrack]

I've been roasted before about my thoughts on 1911's/SAA's for duty carry.

Keeping that in mind I think that repeating the task numerous times properly is important. and then once that pattern is driven home, add complexity to the task - generally speed and/or movement. Throughout this process it is important that the shooter has immediate feedback and corrective instruction, if required. Positive reinforcement is equally as important.

This is one reason that I don't like SAA pistols for duty carry, across the board very few agencies devote the time to ensure adherence to the running of the safety and there is usually little opportunity for evaluation of on street performance

My point being that in order to use an SCD correctly, you have to go through essentially the same process.

Once you've gone through the learning/application process correctly engaging, disengaging the safety becomes like putting your foot on the brake pedal and coming to a stop.

Good points. Layered safety measures are the way to go, so if we miss one there's still something between flesh and a bullet.

I've seen too many 1911/2011's holstered (and even worse, slam holstered) with the safety off. My gripe with the 1911/2022 is mainly that the trigger is usually too short and light. (I have more gripes but not relevant here). If we forget to thumb the SCD, we still have a relatively heavy and long-ish Glock trigger with a tab.


Car analogy: True, but depending on the year and model car you drive, there maybe safeties that prevent you from going off the road. Ironically, while cars are adding more and more safety features, guns are removing them.

I don't see it that way. The gun itself is a life safety device, and if it doesn't work when needed that's unsafe. I think the Glock is the safest gun, all considered. The SCD makes it even better.

----
And this is an interesting post for me to write because at least 75% of the time I'm carrying a decocker-only P-07, where forgetting to decock is almost as bad as for a 1911. I've never done that, but...

[Bucky]

I don't see it that way. The gun itself is a life safety device, and if it doesn't work when needed that's unsafe. I think the Glock is the safest gun, all considered. The SCD makes it even better.


I’d argue that perhaps a true double action only Pistol would be the safest. No aftermarket part is needed for thumbing the pistol into the holster. Also, a modern service holster could strap / hood over the hammer to prevent firing from within a light bearing holster should a finger work its way inside.

That said, it seems to take a lot more skill to run one of those well, which is why they have fallen out of favor. Otherwise, I certainly agree, Glock still seems to be the best go to of the modern striker pistols.



And this is an interesting post for me to write because at least 75% of the time I'm carrying a decocker-only P-07, where forgetting to decock is almost as bad as for a 1911. I've never done that, but...

I’m not too familiar with the P-07, but perhaps I should be given my preference toward the DA/SA semi auto. :)

My preference in that regard is my 92G compact. Fortunately I’ve not forgotten to decock either. However, if I did, as I stated before, no less safe than a P320 - maybe safer, since I more trust its half cock notch and more traditional type firing pin safety.



ETA: After posting this I was thinking that perhaps the OP could consider a true double action only auto.

[HeavyDuty]

ETA: After posting this I was thinking that perhaps the OP could consider a true double action only auto.

I really think there is a market here, something like an updated P250.

[Bucky]

I really think there is a market here, something like an updated P250.

Or the DAK models, assuming they aren’t still made already.

Beretta 92D models were great. Regret getting rid of mine.

[ViniVidivici]

As my friend GrumpyM4 once told me, "reholster with a purpose", i.e., look, clear any obstructions, do it right...with purpose.

I HATE when I see people slam guns home into holsters, no matter WHERE they're mounted. That is just damn wrong.

[Caballoflaco]

I really think there is a market here, something like an updated P250.

That market is like 16 people on PF.

[Navin Johnson]

I really think there is a market here, something like an updated P250.

I think a P250 type gun is great…. That being said……

If there was truly a market, the LEM the DAK and Kahr pistols would be flying off the shelves…. I don’t know of any store in my area that has any of those….. and I have a mobile job and frequent more than 10….

Social media influencers, and dude behind the gun shop counter are all about pretension strikers and no safety.

Much like the SCD…. Can anyone name three people that they know that use those that are not on this forum?….. that aren’t people that you have personally introduced or showed them?

300 or 3000 is not a market, 300,000 is a market in a for-profit firearm industry…….

[Clusterfrack]

As my friend GrumpyM4 once told me, "reholster with a purpose", i.e., look, clear any obstructions, do it right...with purpose.

I HATE when I see people slam guns home into holsters, no matter WHERE they're mounted. That is just damn wrong.

I'm using that quote in my next Handgun Fundamentals class.

[fixer]

Yeah I'm essentially concerned with the gun firing on its own. Some defect causing the striker to hit the round. I am not worried about me failing and causing it to happen. I'm not worried about the 365 specifically, just all striker fired guns in this situation. Seems like the consensus is that there are safety mechanisms in place to prevent that and something catastrophic would have to happen for the gun to fire on its own

Firing pin blocks are the typical/standard design feature that prevents this. It is a mechanical, and usually robust, cylinder that is in the travel path of striker when slide is far enough forward as to not be near the opposing travel of the trigger bar.

One thing not mentioned (that I can tell) is if this is a concern you have then you can also take an additional maintenance step and remove the firing pin block and inspect for damage, debris.

I do this on the G19s I carry every so often.

If this is outside of your scope of ability, then simply pushing on the firing pin block a few dozen times with slide off can indicate if you have issues.

The gen4 Glocks I had...showed signs of the coating of the firing pin flaking off. Although there was never a noted or perceived malfunction of the firing pin block, it bothered me on an ocd level. I used some scotch brite to smooth them over. I also took them out for inspection at 5x the rate I normally would. They eventually wore in and the flaking subsided.

[Zincwarrior]

Or the DAK models, assuming they aren’t still made already.

Beretta 92D models were great. Regret getting rid of mine.

Aren't they a bit large for carry?

[Noah]

Aren't they a bit large for carry?

Not any bigger than any other full size pistol

[jeep45238]

Aren't they a bit large for carry?

Beretta 92A1 w/ TLR-1HL in an enigma. I was 185lb in that photo (working on getting back to it).

128278

[Bucky]

Or the DAK models, assuming they aren’t still made already.

Beretta 92D models were great. Regret getting rid of mine.


Aren't they a bit large for carry?

The P239 is a decent size for concealment. Another I regret parting with (mine wasn’t DAK though ).

A Beretta 92 Compact carries like a G19.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Wouldn't the good ol' SW 3913s work? I hankered for a 3913LS at its time but was broke then. Now they are unserviceable and mags are unubtanium.

[HeavyDuty]

Wouldn't the good ol' SW 3913s work? I hankered for a 3913LS at its time but was broke then. Now they are unserviceable and mags are unubtanium.

I feel your pain. I bought a 3913 when they were first released, and after the 3913LS came out I pestered Steve Melvin to release it in a non-LadySmith version. Apparently others felt the same because the NL was eventually released. By that time I couldn’t afford one…

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Science has shown that if you wore a 3913LS in an AWIB, your balls fell out your pant leg. Thus, the NL was offered.

I had a SW 317LS as I like it's configuration. I didn't fear it's transgender threat. However, the trigger was horrible and I sold it.

[Crusader]

Everyone has their own level of comfort when it comes to carrying a concealed handgun, some will never carry with a round in the chamber. It puts you at a considerable disadvantage and demands a lot of training at drawing and making your gun hot.

Myself I’ve been carrying with a round in the chamber on and off duty for a good 30 years, never a had an incident or cause for concern. That said I have my limitations on what I will conceal carry hot, just about any reputable handgun with a manual safety I’m comfortable with. I carried 1911s off duty for many years, also a M&P Shield for a bit. It had a manual safety, also for a wee bit as a back up a PM9, while it didn’t have a MS it did have a long double action trigger pull. That’s also the reason I stopped carrying it, it wasn’t the trigger press so much as the extremely long reset that did it in for me.

Now and for a long while now my off duty carry is primarily Glocks, yes no manual safety. But I trust the Glock trigger without one, the fact that it is not fully cocked until the trigger is pressed is really big for me. I will not carry a gun with a fully cocked striker trigger system, unless it has a manual safety.

Does this mean those that do are unsafe for carry, of course not. All it means is it does not meet my comfort level for my personal carry. We all have to find what works for us, not some else, it’s the same reason I still do not carry appendix. I just can’t point a gun at my junk, yeah I know it’s safe if done right. But it’s still out of my comfort zone, I still carry at roughly 3:30.

And of course no matter how or what you carry, a quality correct holster is mandatory.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Safety On, Safety Off
Balls on, Balls off
Such dickery!

Haiku, Achoo!

Sorry, J frame in the pants today due to dress constraints. If it works out, maybe the Sig 365 380 with no safety.

[Duelist]

Wouldn't the good ol' SW 3913s work? I hankered for a 3913LS at its time but was broke then. Now they are unserviceable and mags are unubtanium.

I don’t know that they are actually unserviceable. I’ve still got one, and a stack of magazines. Shoots as good as it ever did.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I thought I read that SW wouldn't work on them if you sent one in, if that's true. I has the chance to get one cheap on a store closing sale but my kid was in college and that was that.

[Suvorov]

I thought I read that SW wouldn't work on them if you sent one in, if that's true. I has the chance to get one cheap on a store closing sale but my kid was in college and that was that.

I’ve heard the same thing with regards to all their legacy autos. Which is why I have a bag of parts for my 1006.

And yeah - the lack of new S&W 3rd gen compact autos make the world a little sadder place.

[Drogo Bunce]

I'm interested in the 'math'. Got a research article on that?


No article, just some hand-wavey calculations of probability:

Probability of Getting Hurt WITH a thumb safety = (Probability of flubbing the safety) x (Lifetime probability of being in a shoot or get hurt situation)

Probability of Getting Hurt WITHOUT a thumb safety = (Probability of flubbing a draw/holster) x (Lifetime number of times you draw/holster)


You can crunch the numbers if you like, but the thing to realize is that all of the three probabilities above are very small numbers. If you figure a 1% chance of flubbing the safety, that translates mathematically into a probability of 0.01. The Lifetime probability of being in a shoot or get hurt situation is probably even smaller, call it 1/10 of 1% (1 in a thousand), which is 0.001. When you multiple the probabilities, you get a VERY small probability: 0.00001 or 1-in-100,000.

Whereas the (Lifetime number of times you draw/holster) is potentially quite large. I train and compete regularly, so my (Lifetime number of times you draw/holster) is already in the Many Thousands, and going up every year. Even with a very small (Probability of flubbing a draw/holster), when multiplied by the thousands of draws/holsters you will perform in a lifetime, you will likely have a non-trivial probability of having an injury causing ND. The math is totally dominated by the fact that (Lifetime number of times you draw/holster) is a big number and the rest are very small.

[Bucky]

No article, just some hand-wavey calculations of probability:

Probability of Getting Hurt WITH a thumb safety = (Probability of flubbing the safety) x (Lifetime probability of being in a shoot or get hurt situation)

Probability of Getting Hurt WITHOUT a thumb safety = (Probability of flubbing a draw/holster) x (Lifetime number of times you draw/holster)


You can crunch the numbers if you like, but the thing to realize is that all of the three probabilities above are very small numbers. If you figure a 1% chance of flubbing the safety, that translates mathematically into a probability of 0.01. The Lifetime probability of being in a shoot or get hurt situation is probably even smaller, call it 1/10 of 1% (1 in a thousand), which is 0.001. When you multiple the probabilities, you get a VERY small probability: 0.00001 or 1-in-100,000.

Whereas the (Lifetime number of times you draw/holster) is potentially quite large. I train and compete regularly, so my (Lifetime number of times you draw/holster) is already in the Many Thousands, and going up every year. Even with a very small (Probability of flubbing a draw/holster), when multiplied by the thousands of draws/holsters you will perform in a lifetime, you will likely have a non-trivial probability of having an injury causing ND. The math is totally dominated by the fact that (Lifetime number of times you draw/holster) is a big number and the rest are very small.

The flaw in the logic is you cannot compare the 20,000 draws you do in practice to that one draw when you really really need it.

[Noah]

The flaw in the logic is you cannot compare the 20,000 draws you do in practice to that one draw when you really really need it.

I think BBIs reported seeing many issues with thumb safeties in actual shootings as well.

I don’t think it’s fair to say that you can’t compare the two draws- if that were true, why do the 20,000 in practice at all?

I think it would be very fair to say to expect a higher chance of messing it up for real than you see in practice.

[Drogo Bunce]

The flaw in the logic is you cannot compare the 20,000 draws you do in practice to that one draw when you really really need it.

Why not? Probabilities are all comparable. You just have to plug in the right numbers.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

As I thought, no real data, just some conjecture. Anecdotes - sure we got them. Seen folks forget the safety, screw it up. Had 1911 dude holstering almost shoot me. Certainly, there are reports of holstering NDs for various types. Dig out those figures.

[Bucky]

I think BBIs reported seeing many issues with thumb safeties in actual shootings as well.

I don’t think it’s fair to say that you can’t compare the two draws- if that were true, why do the 20,000 in practice at all?

I think it would be very fair to say to expect a higher chance of messing it up for real than you see in practice.


Why not? Probabilities are all comparable. You just have to plug in the right numbers.

I never said the practice doesn’t help. However, there is more chances for something to go wrong when you have to deliver unexpectedly and likely with a bigger adrenaline dump. However, practice helps the motor skills which should help you succeed, even if there is a higher risk factor.

My point was that percentage would go up under more stressful circumstances.

[Noah]

I never said the practice doesn’t help. However, there is more chances for something to go wrong when you have to deliver unexpectedly and likely with a bigger adrenaline dump. However, practice helps the motor skills which should help you succeed, even if there is a higher risk factor.

My point was that percentage would go up under more stressful circumstances.

For sure- wasn’t trying to disagree, only clarify.

[Drogo Bunce]

I never said the practice doesn’t help. However, there is more chances for something to go wrong when you have to deliver unexpectedly and likely with a bigger adrenaline dump. However, practice helps the motor skills which should help you succeed, even if there is a higher risk factor.

My point was that percentage would go up under more stressful circumstances.

No argument there. Thumb safeties protect against one danger, but introduce another. If they didn't, they would be a no-brainer. The equations are pretty simple, but the numbers needed to actually do the calculation aren't knowable with any real confidence or precision. So in the end, like most things, it's a judgement call.

For me, at my level of training and experience, the added risk of flubbing the safety in a statistically unlikely life-or-death situation is (in my judgment) dwarfed by the lessened risk of shooting myself on drawing or holstering over the thousands of times I will do that in my life.

Your mileage may vary.

[pangloss]

I just found this threat today, and I apologize if what I'm about to write has already been covered, but getting back to the OP: I had some nervousness about carrying with a loaded chamber when I started carrying in ~2009. Things that helped me were 1) shooting more 4) dry fire more from the holster 3) learning how to detail strip a Glock so I could better understand how it functions and 4) most importantly, I put my unloaded Glock in my carry holster and did everything I could think of to dislodge the gun or press the trigger. Seriously, wrestle with your dog, roll around on the ground, do jumping jacks, swing from the rafters, go to a trampoline park, whatever you can think of to test the soundness of your holster. It's impossible for a test like that to be exhaustive, but it'll demonstrate that it's pretty close to impossible to get a striker to drop in a modern pistol carried quality holster--exceptions granted for Sig P320s and people who hit guns with mallets...

[UNM1136]

Did you miss the part where I mentioned training twice?

Training is not a once or twice kind of thing.

You have initial training which depending on what drives you can be a couple of hours or a couple of months. You are exposed to new concepts and skills.

Then you have sustainment training, where you knock the cobwebs off, recall small points that may have slipped your mind, and develop the initially trained psychomotor skills. And most shooting lacks some sort of objective, critical analysis, so practice does not usually equal training.

I self-train a good bit. 5-10 minutes a day dry, and once or twice a month live fire with a trusted and experienced coach.

I love going to classes for new skills. I also love supervised practice where i am not telling myself how great I just did, but a coach or trainer can tell me "overdriveing the gun again", "muzzled the target a little early", "too much trigger finger then", "why did you bungle that reload?" or "probably should have gotten the safety on sooner than you did".

I self-trained for a long, long time, mostly while the wife and I were working full time plus with young kiddos, and fell for most of my biased delusions. Now that I have more time and money I am seeking out supervised training more and more, and having a trained, unbiased observer watch and comment on my actual strengths and weaknesses, the the ones I choose to pay attention to.

If you will pardon my saying so, it seems you "have trained". It is difficult to be trained without maintenance.

Just some thoughts...

pat

[CSW]

Sig will, for a fee, convert a non safety pistol to a manual safety.
Just had this 320 done.

130456

They modified the FCU, sent back the non safety parts, and the old grip module.

[HeavyDuty]

Sig will, for a fee, convert a non safety pistol to a manual safety.
Just had this 320 done.

130456

They modified the FCU, sent back the non safety parts, and the old grip module.

I wonder when they started doing that? I actually just ran across an email exchange with SIG from 2021 where they told me they did not offer this service - that’s how I ended up at AB Prototype for the work.

[CSW]

Had it done last month.
Just over 200 bucks.

[HeavyDuty]

Had it done last month.
Just over 200 bucks.

I think that’s similar to AB Prototype, and your warranty isn’t affected. Nice!

[CSW]

Thread drift:

I found this 320 for cheap, literally unused.
It's shoots well, but I'm a thumb safety believer, so when it went in for the factory upgrade to the FCU, which is free, had them add the TS.