IDPA Match DQ

[Wheeler]

I had to DQ a shooter today at our local IDPA/DMG monthly match. I think it hurt my feelings more than his because I consider him a good friend.

Short version is, during an adaptation of one of the stages, in which we were using carbines from either side of a Bianchi style barricade, he put a round through the barricade from a distance of about 3". He was shooting one of the Beretta 9mm carbines with a red dot on top, and didn't take into account the distance from the muzzle to the center of his optic as he sliced the pie. In addition to that, he made the decision to shoot left handed around the left side of the barricade, and is right hand dominant.

A word of warning to RO's, SO's and trainers. I haven't seen this happen in quite some time and never from that close. Fortunatley is was ball ammo and thin plywood.

Wheeler

[joshs]

Do the IDPA multigun rules require (or even allow) a DQ for shooting a barricade? I've seen this many times in pistol matches, though usually not that close to the barricade, but I've never seen a shooter DQed because of it.

[JodyH]

We only DQ if it was a deliberate shot through a prop to gain a competitive advantage.

[gtmtnbiker98]

The rule book does not address this issue and IMO, is a judgement call if it created an unsafe situation. Generally, DQ's must be referenced from the rule book, but not all Safety Considerations are addressed. It's a judgement call, regarding formality.

I DQ'd a shooter yesterday for attempting to use an illegal gun for the Classifier Match. Didn't bother me a bit, he should have known the rules.

[fuse]

The rule book does not address this issue and IMO, is a judgement call if it created an unsafe situation. Generally, DQ's must be referenced from the rule book, but not all Safety Considerations are addressed. It's a judgement call, regarding formality.

I DQ'd a shooter yesterday for attempting to use an illegal gun for the Classifier Match. Didn't bother me a bit, he should have known the rules.

Full length dust cover?

[orionz06]

I would view that as a minor issue and not one that would DQ someone.

[joshs]

I think the easiest way to deal with this is to specify that all of the props are hard cover in the stage description. That way there is no advantage to shooting through the prop, and shooters will be incentivized to take the extra time to ensure the muzzle is clear to avoid a miss.

[VolGrad]

jlweems and I were there yesterday but unaware of this. We were running the Classifier in bay #3. Well, he was doing most of the running ..... Steve and I were helping.

We need to figure out a way to meet up next time for intros.

I'm the one with the orange Max bag with a VOLGRAD name tape on it. I was wearing orange kydex gear yesterday as well.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Full length dust cover?G17L

[jlw]

jlweems and I were there yesterday but unaware of this. We were running the Classifier in bay #3. Well, he was doing most of the running ..... Steve and I were helping.

We need to figure out a way to meet up next time for intros.

I'm the one with the orange Max bag with a VOLGRAD name tape on it. I was wearing orange kydex gear yesterday as well.


He and I did meet for intros, but you were nowhere to be found. Turns out he and I were in the SO class together a few months back. As memory serves, you were nowhere to be found that day either. :)

[VolGrad]

He and I did meet for intros, but you were nowhere to be found. Turns out he and I were in the SO class together a few months back. As memory serves, you were nowhere to be found that day either. :)

If I was nowhere to be found I must have been in line registering us, thank you very much. :p

[Wheeler]

From the IDPA Rule Book:

I. Promote safe and proficient use of guns and
equipment suitable for self-defense. Page 5.

Never point a gun at something you are not prepared
to destroy. Page 6. Law 2.

Always be sure of your target and what is behind it. Page 6. Law 3. In this case, in front of it.

S 1. Unsafe gun handling will result in immediate
disqualification from the entire match. Page 6. Safety Rule S1.

The club the match was shot at takes a dim view of having their props shot up. Target stands and barrels are expendable, they realize they will get shot up, bianchi barricades and the cowboy boardwalk are sort of off limits.

I used those items to make my decision. The call by the ASO was that he had a bullet strike on a prop within 6'. I am not sure if that's an IPSC/USPSA rule, a range rule, or something he came up with. IT's certainly not an IDPA rule. I used the above criteria to make my decision. I feel that the shooter was unaware of his muzzle in relation to the target and barricade, was not sure of his target when he took the shot, and if the barricade had been the wall of a shoot house made of crossties as opposed to a 2x4 and a piece of 1/2" plywood, there most likely would have been shrapnel blowback, and possibly a riccochet thus endangering other shooters.

FWIW, I secifically requested the shooter discuss the incident with the MD before leaving the range, which he did. The MD concured with my decision.

Wheeler

[ToddG]

Having been to a lot of matches, shot from behind a lot of barricades, and seen a lot of people accidentally shoot the barricades (including doing it myself more than once), personally I wouldn't call it a safety violation or a DQ'able offense. There's a reason people don't volunteer their personal cars as range props, after all.

DQ people for hitting the edge of a barricade and next time they'll simply crowd cover to make sure their muzzle is well past it. Then they've learned a bad "tactic" to avoid getting gigged in a game.

OTOH, if shooters are specifically told in advance that hitting the barricade will result in a DQ, then of course it becomes a simple matter of setting a rule and having it broken. But if there were no warning and I hit a prop leading to a DQ, I'd be asking the MD to call IDPA HQ but regardless of how one might choose to read the rule book personally, that has never been a DQ'able offense at Nationals.

[Wheeler]

Having been to a lot of matches, shot from behind a lot of barricades, and seen a lot of people accidentally shoot the barricades (including doing it myself more than once), personally I wouldn't call it a safety violation or a DQ'able offense. There's a reason people don't volunteer their personal cars as range props, after all.

DQ people for hitting the edge of a barricade and next time they'll simply crowd cover to make sure their muzzle is well past it. Then they've learned a bad "tactic" to avoid getting gigged in a game.

OTOH, if shooters are specifically told in advance that hitting the barricade will result in a DQ, then of course it becomes a simple matter of setting a rule and having it broken. But if there were no warning and I hit a prop leading to a DQ, I'd be asking the MD to call IDPA HQ but regardless of how one might choose to read the rule book personally, that has never been a DQ'able offense at Nationals.

That's a fair statement Todd. The point of impact was actually about 3" in from the edge of the barricade. Like I said, he's BIG guy, shooting around cover, was leaning out, and had the gun canted across his body to engage a difficult target.

Regardless, I felt this was a debatable issue, which is why I referred him to the MD. I don't like to DQ people, I don't even like to give procedurals for that matter. I did think this was a good point for discussion and value all the comments and observations that have been made.

Wheeler

[Fly320s]

In addition to that, he made the decision to shoot left handed around the left side of the barricade, and is right hand dominant.

Wheeler
Is there something wrong with that? I would shoot that the same way.

I shoot in IDPA, but not multi-gun so I'm not familiar with those rules. Is transferring the rifle to the opposite shoulder not allowed?

[Wheeler]

Is there something wrong with that? I would shoot that the same way.

I shoot in IDPA, but not multi-gun so I'm not familiar with those rules. Is transferring the rifle to the opposite shoulder not allowed?

No it's not. It was a decesion he made is the only point I was trying to make. If it had been against the rules for some reason, I would have stopped him.

To include a little bit of background that I may have left out; he was shooting a Beretta CX4 Storm carbine, with a utility/spare mag pouch attached to the right side of the buttstock. He also had a mini-holo sight attached to the upper rail. What ended up happening was the pouch totally screwed with his cheekweld, he rolled the rifle to the left, thus increasing the paralex from eye to muzzle. As he leaned out and around the baricade, the muzzle essentially didn't move, as his body and stock did.

Wheeler

[Fly320s]

Got it. Thanks.