14oz. of leather and lead

[JodyH]

Just got my new slapjack in.
14oz. of leather and lead goodness.
Fits in the tool pocket of my carpenter pants perfectly.
Perfect dog walking companion.
:cool:

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/JodyHuggins/IMG_20121210_151651.jpg

[Chuck Haggard]

Man I wish we could carry saps here.

[JodyH]

Saps rock.

[MDS]

I got a taste upside the head with one of these, last time I got mugged. Hurt like hell, but it was a poorly placed shot and only made me mad. Luckily for the bg's (or for me,) bg#2 followed up by pointing a j frame at my nose. I was mad enough I almost went for a gun grab. (I was unarmed.) I cooled down and gave up my loot, but it was a near thing, and the thud upside the head is what made it so.

Point of the story: shot placement matters with this thing. Any training or at least good info out there on effective usage?

[JodyH]

Southnarc has some blackjack/sap material.

[John Ralston]

I can't even manufacture one here in WA...even if I want to ship it to a state where they are legal.

[MDS]

Southnarc has some blackjack/sap material.

Of course he does. The answer to every other question around here is "SN teaches that." :)

ECQC keeps getting higher and higher on the priority list...

[Dagga Boy]

I miss be able to carry one. I carried a big Sap when I started in L/E, and they were they choice at my old place for all close quarters engagements. I did some very serious corrective action over the years with mine. Great stuff.

[Sparks2112]

I always liked the lead weighted gloves myself. I had a fingerless pair when I was bouncing, rather effective.

[JodyH]

I miss be able to carry one. I carried a big Sap when I started in L/E, and they were they choice at my old place for all close quarters engagements. I did some very serious corrective action over the years with mine. Great stuff.
Good less lethal option when you edge strike against joints and bones or slap the torso.
"Liver shot" with a slap is particularly ugly.
Not so "less lethal" when you crack their skull.

[Dagga Boy]

If you used the flat part on the head and face, it would lump them really bad, but they didn't bleed in my experience. Its why they worked so well. You could really knock a guy out or down them quickly with a shot to the head or face (and they usually didn't even remember what happened) and they were fight enders. When they took the Saps away, flashlights got used alot to the head, and they always seemed to cause a lot of bleeding.

[Coyotesfan97]

Man I wish we could carry saps here.

+1.

My Dad's old sap that's in my nightstand. It hurts just tapping my palm.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c310/coyotesfan97/a3dcbee4.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ridgeback303]

It's not a SAP, it's a book weight (http://www.sonlight.com/LB09.html)!

[JodyH]

+1.
My research of AZ statutes so far is that saps are legal to carry.
13-3101 Definitions (http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/13/03101.htm&Title=13&DocType=ARS)
13-3102 Misconduct involving weapons (http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/13/03102.htm&Title=13&DocType=ARS)
I've only just started to research AZ (upcoming trip in January) so any additional info is appreciated.

[LHS]

Bringing this one back from the dead:

I ordered a #890 "Junior" sap from Foster yesterday. I was playing around with a friend's this weekend, and it really impressed me with the build quality. Foster says it should ship on Friday :) I'll post pics once it arrives.

[SLG]

I've had a few foster slaps and Jacks over the years. Down to 2 now. great stuff.

[LHS]

Interestingly enough, while state law in AZ is pretty permissive, the City of Phoenix has a complete ban on selling or giving away "brass knuckles or other knuckles of metal, slung shot, billy or blackjack". (section 23-39 Phoenix City Code)

Based on other pieces of city code, "slung shot" seems to refer to a slingshot.

Concealed carry of any weapon is prohibited except for on-duty law enforcement, though state preemption laws apparently override this for guns and blades (PCC 23-40)

[JodyH]

"Slung shot" is a guardrail nut on a length of 550 cord, or a "monkeyfist".

[LHS]

"Slung shot" is a guardrail nut on a length of 550 cord, or a "monkeyfist".

Interesting. Elsewhere in PCC, it's mentioned that it's illegal to discharge a firearm, BB gun or slung shot in city limits.

[JodyH]

I'm sure a busy body legislator didnt know what "Slung shot" was and confused it with a slingshot, but they are different things. Slung shot is a weighted object usually tethered to your hand. You throw it at someone and/or swing it at them, and the tether lets you keep control of it.
Things like a padlock on a bandana, monkeyfist or large hex nut on a cord are all slung shot. The name slung shot supposedly came from sailors putting grape shot balls into monkeyfist knots as weapons.

[NickA]

I think legislators only update their terminology every century or two. Texas still prohibits "dirks, daggers, or poniards".

[JodyH]

Texas prohibits Bowie knives... that's gawdamn Yankee'ish.

[LHS]

Texas prohibits Bowie knives... that's gawdamn Yankee'ish.

I know, right?

Phoenix prohibits sword canes, but the state knife preemption overrides it.

[TR675]

Texas prohibits Bowie knives... that's gawdamn Yankee'ish.

That would be the influence of carpetbaggers, I am certain.

[LHS]

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h103/LordHeadshot/SapRolex_zpsntuy5y8h.jpg

[Dropkick]

Dang, I dunno which is sexier. :D

[LHS]

Dang, I dunno which is sexier. :D

Both are elegant accoutrements of a more civilized age.

[JodyH]

Truly a man of style and substance.

[Dropkick]

Both are elegant accoutrements of a more civilized age.


Truly a man of style and substance.

*adjusts his monocle* Well spoken, my fine sirs.

[Dagga Boy]

Both are elegant accoutrements of a more civilized age.

I think mine lost their civilized when you have have both of them in the sink of the men's locker room in steaming hot water to try and get all the blood out.......but you do get "Buccaneer Points". I like those better........:cool:

[LHS]

I think mine lost their civilized when you have have both of them in the sink of the men's locker room in steaming hot water to try and get all the blood out.......but you do get "Buccaneer Points". I like those better........:cool:

No blood on my sap yet (and hopefully never), but I have had that Sub in more than one whitetail's guts.

[Dropkick]

No blood on my sap yet (and hopefully never), but I have had that Sub in more than one whitetail's guts.

Bet that was fun explaining during its maintenance service.

[LHS]

Bet that was fun explaining during its maintenance service.

No, but it freaked out my watch-collecting boss :)

[LHS]

The full-size sap was just a bit awkward to carry concealed without a dedicated sap pocket, so I downsized a bit. This one's by Andy Langlois at Andy's Leather.

4513

[JodyH]

The LCP .380 of the sap world.

[LHS]

The LCP .380 of the sap world.

Ha, yeah, pretty much.

I noticed several differences between my Foster and this Langlois, other than the size. The Foster has what feels like a solid lead slug in it, while the Langlois has shot pellets. The Foster has a spring, the Langlois doesn't. The Foster has much more rigid leather, while the Langlois is more supple, almost buttery smooth. I think the Foster would work much better for edge strikes because of this.

[JodyH]

The Foster brothers are Southnarc alumni, that probably influenced their designs.

[vcdgrips]

Todd Foster is a true gentleman. He sent me a brown coin purse on very short notice for my recent trip to NYC. I went with one that has the ring on the end v. a knuckle strap.The build quality is superlative.

12-15.00 worth of change ( mostly quarters) can get it up to 12 oz yet still zip open and close with ease. I should probably go to the bank and get some of those "gold" dollar coins for my next road trip.

[BehindBlueI's]

When they took the Saps away, flashlights got used alot to the head, and they always seemed to cause a lot of bleeding.

A good friend of mine, Mr. Plausible Deniability, had a mag-light his beat partners nicknamed "Capt. Thumpy" for some reason or other.

[farscott]

Todd Foster is a true gentleman. He sent me a brown coin purse on very short notice for my recent trip to NYC. I went with one that has the ring on the end v. a knuckle strap.The build quality is superlative.

12-15.00 worth of change ( mostly quarters) can get it up to 12 oz yet still zip open and close with ease. I should probably go to the bank and get some of those "gold" dollar coins for my next road trip.

I want to second this. I contacted Mr. Foster last (Sunday) evening with some questions about the coin purse as I travel for business and always need quarters for tolls and parking meters. He comprehensively, including pictures, answered my inquiry within an hour!! My order is supposed to ship on Tuesday. That is impressive service.

[JodyH]

A good friend of mine, Mr. Plausible Deniability, had a mag-light his beat partners nicknamed "Capt. Thumpy" for some reason or other.
"Tonk"...

[JustOneGun]

Sadly they were not allowed when I came on. But I do have two that were given to me. One is a flat sap. One is a black jack. They are definitely not created equal. I have found that many cops interchange the wording. The sap is a lot lighter and has no real spring action to it. The black jack is much heavier with a great spring action. The flat sap is as pictured in this thread. The black jack tends to be rounded with laced leather braiding.

Perhaps someone who has used both can chime in and tell us the real world difference. It seems to me that I could bust a head with a moderate swing of the sap. I suspect a moderate swing of the blackjack would send someone to the hospital or worse.

I know in Arizona it would be a dangerous instrument. They tend not to be used on people in Arizona anymore because of fine legal points. I.e. not all dangerous instruments are treated the same. If I'm using a walking stick while walking or using a flashlight while searching and someone gets their head busted in a knockdown drag out with me being the victim and winner even the most liberal County Attorney in Arizona down in Pima County tends to see the object first as it was legitimately being used.

With the sap or a blackjack, well it was intended to bust peoples heads. Again they are legal in Arizona. But when deciding right/wrong, guilt/innocence and most importantly, reasonable/unreasonable County Attorney's tend to look more harshly at the purpose made items. I would never carry mine in public. And if I were to use it, I would assume it to be a deadly weapon. Because make no mistake about it, that's how it is going to be portrayed in court, jury instruction not withstanding.

ETA: Many different cities have their own laws that might forbid them. You might want to check the city code of where you are traveling to.

[SouthNarc]

I've hit more than one person with both. Jacks are definitely more damaging.

[farscott]

I am not an LEO, so my view on this may be either naive or simplistic. That being said, I look at a sap as a less-lethal weapon than either a handgun or a knife. Yes, a sap can surely be lethal, but it is more easily used as a less lethal weapon than either a knife or gun. A sap is certainly less dangerous to bystanders than a bullet and less likely to expose someone to blood-borne pathogens.

The issue with purpose-made weapons causing the user to be judged more harshly is just another example of people assigning blame to tools instead of to the individuals wielding them with bad intent.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I want to second this. I contacted Mr. Foster last (Sunday) evening with some questions about the coin purse as I travel for business and always need quarters for tolls and parking meters. He comprehensively, including pictures, answered my inquiry within an hour!! My order is supposed to ship on Tuesday. That is impressive service.
I'll third it. I haven't taken pics yet but this afternoon, I received some beautiful custom leather from Todd.

In the glorious people's republic of North Mexinadia, we don't need to defend ourselves, but I sure do love nice leather. I expect to use this for myofascial release, which I do a lot of on account of some old injuries and some new lifting.

I bet it works great.

[SAWBONES]

I'll third it. I haven't taken pics yet but this afternoon, I received some beautiful custom leather from Todd.


And yet a fourth endorsement. The Brothers Foster are definitely the sap-'jack gentlemen of the impact weapon coterie.
When I (temporarily) lost one of my Foster Brothers 'jacks several years ago, they made me a new one in double-quick time. Top-quality materials and construction.

[PD Sgt.]

I will also chime in with praise for the Foster's products. I have a midget sap and one of the shorter blackjacks and the quality of leather and construction on both of them is outstanding. Both were very quick to respond to e-mails, very helpful with suggestions, and shipped very fast.

Personally I prefer the shorter length models as these are coat pocket carries for me. It has been a long time since I used a sap on anyone, but I have negotiated a few settlements with a MagLite. Personally I think the sap in particular is a more "humane" (less likely to cause lacerations) option when used with the flat against bony surfaces (such as a skull). Lacerations being the splitting of skin due to blunt force trauma, different than the wounds caused by sharp force objects.

[FNFAN]

I'd be interested in hearing from any of you guys with actual sap/jack application experience.

They were common when I came on with uniform pants having a small slit pocket on the thigh. Mine was a spoon shape with a spring handle and rolled edges in dark brown leather. Never liked the thicker style or round braided style as they left cuts and you know how a cut around the head can bleed.

They were referred to as "spoons" and I knew an old dinosaur Lt. that was an artist with one. Could lay it right above the ear and the guy was in twilight but not out. As with most things overzealous use got them taken away.

[SouthNarc]

Since you've got some decent experience with these things, what are your favorite/preferred models from Foster Impact Devices (http://fosterimpactdevices.com/)?

ETA: even though I quoted SN's post and pretty much directly addressed him, I'd be interested in hearing from any of you guys with actual sap/jack application experience.

Tom they can literally make anything you want. On a jack for me the sweet spot is 8" 13 ozs. Saps I like a bit shorter but not lighter.

Go over to TPI and search TODD1 posts and you can see a lot of his custom work.

[SouthNarc]

Also Scott Foster goes by Disector at TPI so search his posts for jacks. I like the non-catalogued model called the Porrada and have one. His rendition of the classic Bucheimer Penna is also really nice. Basically a sewn, not braided jack.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

My wife's blue and black braided leather key fob arrived from Scott today. It's purely decorative and intended to remind her of her days as a dominatrix in Montreal, so there's no need for a rigid frame or anything. Just a piece of cable or something, and, I guess, about a seven ounce weight of some kind at one end.

Seems like it'll be an easy key fob to remember, and if by chance she gets attacked by a dog or whatever on the very popular path behind our place, well, she'll probably have it in her hand already, so I guess if she has to swing something at a predator, it might as well be that.

And having tested it on my calf...man, you do NOT want to get hit with one of these.

[Dropkick]

My wife's blue and black braided leather key fob arrived from Scott today.
Dude, you know we're dying to see it...

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Dude, you know we're dying to see it...
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/03/0cc9036e18ac516a02d2377e64913aba.jpg

Sorry, man, I haven't really had the chance to get any good pics.

One from each brother in this quick phone snap though!

[Maple Syrup Actual]

...and then I forgot today until the sun was almost down.

http://i.imgur.com/tr2yYhOl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/qj5UiLZl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/8Tr7kQfl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/FtYgL7Pl.jpg

[Dropkick]

The jack is a little longer than I would I have guessed, but looks awesome!

[Byron]

My Foster #31 arrived today. I can't say enough good things about it. Todd makes these in 10 or 12oz: mine is the 12oz.

http://i.imgur.com/NGLwXys.jpg

Jacks from left to right:
Bucheimer B894 - 13oz
Generic 14oz
Generic 8oz

Saps from top to bottom:
Foster #31 - 12oz
Boston Leather Midget - 10oz
Boston Leather Junior - 11oz

And the other side of the Foster:

http://i.imgur.com/BEuaguN.jpg

[farscott]

A #31 Midget and a coin sap in black floral leather from Todd Foster. The workmanship is exquisite.

The coin sap is going to accompany me on my business travels. It holds a nice assortment of coins, and it has not yet reached full capacity.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h229/farscott/IMG_0410_zpswxusdnrj.jpg (http://s65.photobucket.com/user/farscott/media/IMG_0410_zpswxusdnrj.jpg.html)