Turkish "service" pistols" (Sarsilmaz and Canik)?

[MichaelOrick]

What is your experience with imported versions of the Turkish service pistols, the SAR9 and Canik TP9?

Their indigenous pistol project was intended to develop a pistol to compete with the foreign guns (Glock, Walther, HK). IIRC about 280,000 were ordered (180K SAR, 100K Canik).

Their service pistols have manual safeties. The SAR9 has a frame mounted thumb safety, the Canik a trigger guard paddle safety.

Both seem to have a variety of models to meet the different markets. On the local ranges they seem OK, not as reliable as the Glocks and M&Ps with range fodder, but better than the P320/M17/18.

The two I tried (SAR9/TP9DA) were reliable with "warm" or +P 115-124g loads, did not like lighter and/or slower loads. Choked on ARX/65g and XD/90g for example.

The SAR9 was interesting. Has an internal, removable "frame" that has the front and rear rails on it. The trigger and sear housing (very Glock like) attach to it. Just a hop, skip, and a jump to being a "modular" FCU? Put the serial number on that instead of the polymer frame and it might be? Have seen these as low as $299.

[Clay]

When the TP9's first came on the scene, around the time James Yeager mentioned them in a video, the shop I worked at bought a bunch. We used several as rental guns, and one saw 5k within a few weeks. That same gun saw at least 10k with no breakages, and original recoil spring in place. I got to inspect a lot of them in the different models, and even bought a couple. They were GTG in my experience. My only concern was buying parts. The shop I worked at did have good luck sourcing parts and mags from Century Arms, and I did repair one full size model, but I can't remember what broke. I spoke to James Yeager about them, and he had really good luck with them as well.

[Buckeye63]

Classic Arms have several videos on both of these pistols…
The SAR 9 seems to be overbuilt.. both were originally designed for a regular diet of 9mm NATO

[Hemiram]

I have a TP9v2 that has been great. I don't know exactly how many rounds it has through it, but I would estimate it to be about 1000. I have a bunch of Sar guns, but none are the SAR 9. I have a B6P, 2000, CM9 G2, K2 45, and even a SAR revolver, the sr38, which has a lousy lockup, and trying to get a new bolt/cylinder lock to hand hit is proving impossible. I guess I need to see if an S&W part will work, as the sr38 is sort of an S&W 586 clone. None of my Turkish guns has had any real problems other than that. They seem very well made and a couple of them were crazy cheap.

[Archer1440]

The SAR 9 seems to be overbuilt.. both were originally designed for a regular diet of 9mm NATO

Be sure not to google the ~2020 image of a Turkish LEO who had that SAR copy of a VP9 kB! on him. Hopefully the backplates are better reinforced, now.

(An entire striker assembly transfixing a human eyeball is very difficult to unsee.)

[Chuck Whitlock]

Be sure not to google the ~2020 image of a Turkish LEO who had that SAR copy of a VP9 kB! on him. Hopefully the backplates are better reinforced, now.

(An entire striker assembly transfixing a human eyeball is very difficult to unsee.)

The idea of this makes me appreciate my affinity for hammer-fired pistols all the more.

[4RNR]

Isnt the Canik a Walther copy/inspired by?

[Noah]

Isnt the Canik a Walther copy/inspired by?

Yes, it’s derivative of the Walther P99. That Sar looks extremely Glock like

[MichaelOrick]

Be sure not to google the ~2020 image of a Turkish LEO who had that SAR copy of a VP9 kB! on him. Hopefully the backplates are better reinforced, now.

(An entire striker assembly transfixing a human eyeball is very difficult to unsee.)

That's not good, but more details would be nice. I've got pics of broken Berettas, Glocks, HKs, Walthers, and 1911s that kBd and injured people. Not to mention the SIGs that shoot people on their own.

[vcdgrips]

It is always moderately ironic that somebody posts up with a question re some off brand pistol implying that it is “good as” for a fraction of the price.

The response is invariably lukewarm overall.

The thing is, they never are…When they go down, they tend to go down hard and parts are often hard to come by.

The gun that has tried and tried and tried to crack the code in a similar space (albeit from Croatia) was the Springfield XD. Never really caught on-at least not in the MIL/GOV/LEO realm.

If you want to plink/game, buy whatever you want.

If it is life saving equipment, these pistols seem like stepping over dollars to pick up pennies to me when lightly used 9mm Glocks can be had for not much more.


Having said all of that, buy one and 6 mags. Take it to a 2 day class and shoot 600-1K rounds thru it and report back.

[Archer1440]

That's not good, but more details would be nice. I've got pics of broken Berettas, Glocks, HKs, Walthers, and 1911s that kBd and injured people. Not to mention the SIGs that shoot people on their own.

Not much out there about it in English I’m afraid but here’s an article about how they reinforced the back plate after all.

https://turdef.com/index.php/article/sarsilmaz-receives-an-improvement-on-sar9-mete

[MichaelOrick]

Not much out there about it in English I’m afraid but here’s an article about how they reinforced the back plate after all.

https://turdef.com/index.php/article/sarsilmaz-receives-an-improvement-on-sar9-mete

Thank you.

How can you tell old from new version?

Would not surprise me if old versions are still on the market. Why some are still going for <$300?

I'm aware of large numbers (up to thousands) of contract guns (from S&W, CZ, SIG) that are returned for various reasons. Wondered how those get recycled.

[MichaelOrick]

It is always moderately ironic that somebody posts up with a question re some off brand pistol implying that it is “good as” for a fraction of the price.


Did not do that. This time anyway.

Ya never know. Everybody starts somewhere. Like Austria, Norway, and Sweden with Glocks in the 80s.

Some cops and troops have to trust what Girsan, Sarsilmaz, and Canik make. Would be nice to know if there is a bargain out there. Some off brands make parts for Airbus, Boeing, and Lockheed. The on brand P320/M17/M18 is not looking so trustable lately.

I was issued a pistol made by a typewriter company 10 years before I was born. It was good enough. Others might be too. Or not.

[SCCY Marshal]

...I was issued a pistol made by a typewriter company 10 years before I was born...

Remington-(at one time)Rand? Oddly enough related, the last letter I received in the mail was written on a "cheap" foreign typewriter which that manufacturer, among many, re-branded on import. Made before I was born and still in daily service. Some foreign cheapies are worth looking into and may well prove a lasting investment.

[vcdgrips]

You were issued a Remington Rand 1911 with the complete technical package being provide to RR.


NOT remotely like the quasi reverse engineered Turkish pistol offerings we are discussing.

[MichaelOrick]

You were issued a Remington Rand 1911 with the complete technical package being provide to RR.


NOT remotely like the quasi reverse engineered Turkish pistol offerings we are discussing.

You're right.

It's easier for an ISO certified aerospace company that makes aircraft and missile parts with CAD/CAM and CNC machines to do it in 2009 w/o a TDP than it was for typewriter/office machine company to do it with one in the 1940s. Or for Glock to start from scratch in the 1980s.

[vcdgrips]

You do you man.

Buy the gun take it to a class and let us know how it runs. A wise man profits from the experience of others.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

When the TP9's first came on the scene, around the time James Yeager mentioned them in a video, the shop I worked at bought a bunch. We used several as rental guns, and one saw 5k within a few weeks. That same gun saw at least 10k with no breakages, and original recoil spring in place. I got to inspect a lot of them in the different models, and even bought a couple. They were GTG in my experience. My only concern was buying parts. The shop I worked at did have good luck sourcing parts and mags from Century Arms, and I did repair one full size model, but I can't remember what broke. I spoke to James Yeager about them, and he had really good luck with them as well.

I worked at Tactical Response for James during the time that Caniks were the rental guns. They were abused, and they ate up the silt and clay in Camden. I was impressed with them. Full sized handguns as I’m sure you well know, are great for beginners to learn on. If I didn’t have a full stable of Glocks and S&W M&P’s, I think they’d be a fine choice if you’re into a full sized handgun for EDC.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MichaelOrick]

You do you man.

Buy the gun take it to a class and let us know how it runs. A wise man profits from the experience of others.

What I'm doing this time.

I know what I've seen and experienced. Want to know what others have seen and experienced.

Some people see and experience problems with the pistolas du jour of the military, cops, and cognoscenti. May be other viable choices good enough if not as good as or "best".

I can see why some would be more leery of using an M17/18 than I ever was an M15, M1911A1, M9, or M11 for example. Why this stuff can make ya crazy?

[SCCY Marshal]

What is your experience with imported versions of the Turkish service pistols, the SAR9 and Canik TP9?


You do you man.

Buy the gun take it to a class and let us know how it runs. A wise man profits from the experience of others.

So, you didn't read the first sentence of the OP before typing, then?

Allow me to suggest an alternative take on a post: "None, but I have personal doubts about the ability of the average turkroach to manufacture a functioning sidearm. Seeing that Yeager's school for delinquent boys had good luck, I will follow the thread and possibly re-assess my position." or "LOL. To the unregistered readers, stop being poor."

[MichaelOrick]

So, you didn't read the first sentence of the OP before typing, then?

Allow me to suggest an alternative take on a post: "None, but I have personal doubts about the ability of the average turkroach to manufacture a functioning sidearm. Seeing that Yeager's school for delinquent boys had good luck, I will follow the thread and possibly re-assess my position." or "LOL. To the unregistered readers, stop being poor."

I think I know what he meant, and I get it.

Can/should you trust the Turks?

Can/should you trust the US? We coulda had Glocks in 1985. Again in in 2017. SOCOM bought more Glocks in 2021. My sister dislikes Glocks for good reason and will never trust them for her personal EDC but she does teach with them cuzz, well, you know...

[farscott]

You're right.

It's easier for an ISO certified aerospace company that makes aircraft and missile parts with CAD/CAM and CNC machines to do it in 2009 w/o a TDP than it was for typewriter/office machine company to do it with one in the 1940s. Or for Glock to start from scratch in the 1980s.

Not sure I agree based on a really interesting experience -- well, it is interesting now. Back then it was very, very painful. To provide some context, I was doing inverter and motor control design work for GE back in 2013. One of the goals of the new programs was to "onshore" manufacturing, including electronics. The previous generations had been built in China, and the goal was to do the manufacturing and final assembly in North America. The plan was staged, so initial production started in China and would move to North America. The "electronics manufacturing services" (EMS) provider we chose had experience in white goods as well as a ton of experience in medical, defense, aerospace, automotive, and personal computing product with every ISO/NADCAP/TLA approval one could have. Definitely a very experienced and well respected company.

To keeps our costs down, we used single-sided circuit boards where all of the conductors and all of the components were placed on one side. We used through-hole parts, including jumpers, in place of vias. Our EMS partner swore this old tech, including the machine to install the wire jumpers, was not an issue for them. They were wrong. Our first-pass yields went from >99% in China to under 70% for the same design. I got to spend more than a month in the manufacturing facility where we learned that the EMS provider did not understand the old processes and did not know how to configure machines to support the processes. All of the CAD/CAM and CNC know-how was useless when the basic underlying knowledge had been lost.

It is also important to remember that Remington-Rand and others were given familiarization contracts for the 1911 before getting the real contract. Singer did so well they earned contracts for more complex products.

[MichaelOrick]

Not sure I agree based on a really interesting experience -- well, it is interesting now. Back then it was very, very painful.

Round 'n round we go...

Can the Turks (or anybody else) now make a 1911 (or anything else) good enough as we did then? It's possible, but how probable?

I bet my life on that old RR M1911A1, but how many would do the same now? This is not it, but very similar. USAF match guns pulled out of retirement for security/le duty on a SDA in the 80s. I remember how they worked for us. Good enough but I've seen better.

Is a Tisas GI 1911 good enough? A SAR? Canik? Girsan? Beats me.

[SCCY Marshal]

...Is a Tisas GI 1911 good enough?

There is a thread just for those in this subforum and they seem to be earning good marks:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?55773-TISAS-1911s

[farscott]

Can the Turks (or anybody else) now make a 1911 (or anything else) good enough as we did then? It's possible, but how probable?

We know IMBEL can. IMBEL, of course, licensed the TDP from Colt. Norinco was able to build great frames and slides, but the barrels and barrel fitting were not so good. It appears Tisas can as well based on reports on this forum. The value of the Tisas pistols is impressive.

[MichaelOrick]

This forum is one of the best places to get the opinions of the cognoscenti.

OTOH, three G19s (or even one) are just not gonna be the way many can or will want to go.

Thank you for putting up with me as well as y'all do as often as you do.

[TGS]

Your posts are kind of bouncing all over the place without any clear purpose.

To wit:



Is a Tisas GI 1911 good enough?

Good enough for what?

[MichaelOrick]

Your posts are kind of bouncing all over the place without any clear purpose.

To wit:



Good enough for what?

Depends on who's asking.

Some will get where and why I wander, and some will not. Tergiversatory logomachia is my cross to bear.

The failure to communicate well is on me.

[PNWTO]

Depends on who's asking.

Some will get where and why I wander, and some will not. Tergiversatory logomachia is my cross to bear.

The failure to communicate well is on me.

This is technical subforum, not a podcast about Ram Dass.

[HCM]

What I'm doing this time.

I know what I've seen and experienced. Want to know what others have seen and experienced.

Some people see and experience problems with the pistolas du jour of the military, cops, and cognoscenti. May be other viable choices good enough if not as good as or "best".

I can see why some would be more leery of using an M17/18 than I ever was an M15, M1911A1, M9, or M11 for example. Why this stuff can make ya crazy?

If you search P-F you’ll find examples from 2016/2017 of the original Canik Striker fired guns not being drop safe.

My recollection is Cannock eventually made design changes and issued a recall to address the issue.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?27484-Another-drop-test-issue-Canik-announces-upgrade

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15199-Canik-TP9SA/page4


https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19776-ND-or-AD

[MichaelOrick]

If you search P-F you’ll find examples from 2016/2017 of the original Canik Striker fired guns not being drop safe.

My recollection is Cannock eventually made design changes and issued a recall to address the issue.



They did/do this:



https://www.canikusa.com/severe-duty-upgrade

[Hemiram]

From what I've seen so far with my numerous actual CZ and CZ75 clones, including SAR, IWI, Tanfoglio, Canik, and Sphinx, I see no real difference in combat quality/accuracy between them. Yeah, the Sphinx guns are prettier, the machine work is amazing, but I haven't had any problems with any of the guns themselves at all. The main hassles with them are guns claimed to take CZ 75 mags take some, but not all, some are tight, real tight, some are loose. I think there will be a color coded system developed to allow me to instantly know what mags work with each gun. I have polymer striker guns from Beretta, Canik, Girsan, Taurus, and Sig. They all seem to work and I carry the Taurus guns most of the time, they (PT111 G2's) have proven to be reliable and show no wear other than barrel finish, which means zilch. I think the Turkish guns have pretty well proven that they are indeed bargains. Not as fantastic a bargain as they were a few years ago, but still a pretty great deal in many cases. My Sar CM 9 G2 was a crazy great bargain when they first came out at $250 shipped. Mine has a couple of thousand rounds through it with 2 failures, both due to messed up cases I missed when I loaded the mags.

[BeowulfHagen]

I figured I should share my experience with the SAR9 X. A SAR9 X become part of the stable this Xmas. 990 rounds so far with zero failure. We made sure to clean it up and did the standard Glock maintenance inspection and lubing procedures. Ran 150 rounds of Winchester 124gr NATO first. The rest have been 115gr range rounds from Warriors revolutions. I have no idea what load they have in them, but after 840 rounds of the lighter loads, still zero failures.

I have contacted SAR about parts and interchangeability. The slide on the X will interchange with the new SOCOM as will the trigger and barrels.

So far, I really like the way this shoots and plan on getting another. I have not decided if it will be a standard SAR9, another X, a GEN 3, or the SOCOM. If a third happens, I'd love to have a SAR9 C, CX, C-SOCOM, or GEN3 C.