.327 Federal Magnum

[DanH]

Any thoughts on this cartridge for a BUG? The Speer Gold Dot load is 100gr at 1500 fps, which sounds like a perfectly acceptable performance but I was wondering if anyone had done any ballistic gel testing. It certainly seems to outperform a .380, and maybe approach or exceed a .38 special.
Any input as to shootability would also be welcome.

[Haraise]

It definitely has a good amount of energy in the hotter loads... but (correct me if I'm wrong) DocGKR always said that handgun rounds only damage their width in crush tissue. Going down to .327 doesn't seem to make much sense when width is what damages.

[DanH]

Yeah, I'm kind of curious about it though because the Gold Dot in particular is one of the recommended service loads in duty calibers so I was wondering if it produces good expansion to allow it to punch above its weight, so to speak.
It certainly has enough energy that I would expect penetration would not be an issue, but I haven't done any gel testing and wasn't sure if anyone had.

[Tamara]

Any thoughts on this cartridge for a BUG? The Speer Gold Dot load is 100gr at 1500 fps, which sounds like a perfectly acceptable performance but I was wondering if anyone had done any ballistic gel testing. It certainly seems to outperform a .380, and maybe approach or exceed a .38 special.
Any input as to shootability would also be welcome.

I prefer the 100gr SJHP loads in my .32 H&R Mag because a 100gr .312" bullet is all ate up with sectional density. The thing I'd worry about with the .327 GDHP load is does it expand so quickly that it offsets the good penetration that should be on tap for a heavy-for-caliber bullet at that velocity?

[Al T.]

:cool:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/327%20Magnum/327%20Federal%20Magnum%20Summary%20Table.pdf

[TGS]

It definitely has a good amount of energy in the hotter loads... but (correct me if I'm wrong) DocGKR always said that handgun rounds only damage their width in crush tissue. Going down to .327 doesn't seem to make much sense when width is what damages.

.312 isn't that much smaller than .355, especially when the cartridge has a similar expanded diameter.

[Haraise]

.312 isn't that much smaller than .355, especially when the cartridge has a similar expanded diameter.

.200" expanded gold dot in .327

.417" expanded hydrashok in .38

Over twice the expanded area. I'd say that's a big difference.

Using the link above.

[TGS]

.200" expanded gold dot in .327

.417" expanded hydrashok in .38

Over twice the expanded area. I'd say that's a big difference.

Using the link above.

What?

.200" that's smaller than the bullet itself. If the bullet is .312, how did it expand into .200?

ETA: That's expansion area. Got it now. :)

FWIW, most of his 38's are also around .2" like the .327.

Second ETA: That 129gr hydrashock was also a sample size of 1. Given that most 38's aren't performing to that amount, and that one has twice the expanded area but only a sample size of 1, I'm not putting too much faith into that.

[Tamara]

:cool:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/327%20Magnum/327%20Federal%20Magnum%20Summary%20Table.pdf

Wait, a 115gr .312" bullet? That makes the usual 147/180/230gr heavies look like flying dimes by comparison.

[Haraise]

What?

.200" that's smaller than the bullet itself. If the bullet is .312, how did it expand into .200?

ETA: That's expansion area. Got it now. :)

FWIW, most of his 38's are also around .2" like the .327.

Yep! Most are... but I'd only carry one load at a time, and it'd be the best one, so I tend to cherry pick what's optimal, you know?

[Tamara]

Yep! Most are... but I'd only carry one load at a time, and it'd be the best one, so I tend to cherry pick what's optimal, you know?

I'm not as impressed with its expansion as much as I am underwhelmed by its penetration.

[TGS]

Yep! Most are... but I'd only carry one load at a time, and it'd be the best one, so I tend to cherry pick what's optimal, you know?

From a sample size of 1? I certainly wouldn't.

[Haraise]

I'm not as impressed with its expansion as much as I am underwhelmed by its penetration.

From which? The .38 hydrashok hit 12" of penetration, which I thought was the standard to meet?


From a sample size of 1? I certainly wouldn't.

Just comparing using that website. If I ever planned to carry a revolver, I'd look elsewhere as well, but for the purposes of this discussion within the measurements of expansion, I'd in theory choose the best.

[TGS]

Just comparing using that website. If I ever planned to carry a revolver, I'd look elsewhere as well, but for the purposes of this discussion within the measurements of expansion, I'd in theory choose the best.


Then here's my theory: 6 expanded .327 bullets is a larger volume of permanent tissue damage than 5 .38 bullets. Especially when consistent and repeatable results put the .327 performing as well as a .38.

[Tamara]

From which? The .38 hydrashok hit 12" of penetration, which I thought was the standard to meet?

Personally, I look at 12" as more of a penetration floor than I used to. YMMV.

[Haraise]

Then here's my theory: 6 expanded .327 bullets is a larger volume of permanent tissue damage than 5 .38 bullets. Especially when consistent and repeatable results put the .327 performing as well as a .38.

Curious, where are you getting the consistent and repeatable results? Both of the tests of .327 on that site have the same sample size... one.

[TGS]

Curious, where are you getting the consistent and repeatable results? Both of the tests of .327 on that site have the same sample size... one.

Well, for .38, take your pick. There's probably hundreds, if not thousands, of tests done on various 38's. For .327, I'm feeling similarly lazy about going and finding every test. From what I remember, there's been other gel tests on it besides Brassfetcher's, and their results were similar. I think some magazines had some gel tests of it, fwiw.

For that 129 gr Hydrashok 38, logic suggests that when you have 1 sample that does twice as well as everything else, and for no apparent reason, then it's not a trustworthy result to form opinions on. Note that Brassfetcher didn't perform only one test with one sample on the .327...he performed 5 or so, penetrating through various mediums. All the results were pretty much what you could expect. So, even though Brassfetcher didn't use 5 rounds for his bare gel test alone, the fact that the other rounds in other tests performed as could be expected lends multitudes more credibility to the results than just one single round performing super exceptional compared to any other 38 round in history.

I'm honestly surprised to see you rooting so much for 1 single sample, when the result is obviously not reliable. If the 129gr Hydrashok in 38 was really that awesome (twice as good as any other 38 in history!), don't you think it'd be big news? It'd probably be recommended by DocGKR with gigantic smiley faces, and he certainly wouldn't be recommending the loads he currently is if the 129gr Hydrashok was this awesome.

[Haraise]

Well, for .38, take your pick. There's probably hundreds, if not thousands, of tests done on various 38's. For .327, I'm feeling similarly lazy about going and finding every test. From what I remember, there's been other gel tests on it besides Brassfetcher's, and their results were similar. I think some magazines had some gel tests of it, fwiw.

For that 129 gr Hydrashok 38, logic suggests that when you have 1 sample that does twice as well as everything else, and for no apparent reason, then it's not a trustworthy result to form opinions on. Note that Brassfetcher didn't perform only one test with one sample on the .327...he performed 5 or so, penetrating through various mediums. All the results were pretty much what you could expect. So, even though Brassfetcher didn't use 5 rounds for his bare gel test alone, the fact that the other rounds in other tests performed as could be expected lends multitudes more credibility to the results than just one single round performing super exceptional compared to any other 38 round in history.

I'm honestly surprised to see you rooting so much for 1 single sample, when the result is obviously not reliable. If the 129gr Hydrashok in 38 was really that awesome (twice as good as any other 38 in history!), don't you think it'd be big news? It'd probably be recommended by DocGKR with gigantic smiley faces, and he certainly wouldn't be recommending the loads he currently is if the 129gr Hydrashok was this awesome.

Rooting so much? I really don't care very much, it's just a passing interest on revolver ammo. Just operating on comparisons of one website's dataset. I'll stop rooting now and go back to looking at autoloaders. :)

[TGS]

FWIW, the FBI's testing didn't speak as well for the 129gr Hydrashok as that single sample did:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/ammodata.htm

[DanH]

So we are looking at "essentially the same performance as .38 special +p," according to Brassfetcher, with 20% less recoil and an extra round in the cylinder. That sounds like a winner to me.

[Al T.]

I'm a bit puzzled (bad with math) as to John's expanded diameters. I "think" the ".2" refers to an expansion based off the original shank size. So, perhaps it's 20% expansion which would put the tip at .48 or so. :confused:

I'll PM him and see if he or Bill can explain to this ignorant Poly Sci major.

[Sparks2112]

Fwiw there is not a single hydrashok load that performs to the FBI standards on a consistent and repeatable basis. If we are talking .38's for a snubby you've got the GD 135 +p, the ranger bonded 130, and iirc the hornady critical defense makes it too, though that one I'm not certain of. I haven't seen any testing on the .327 I'd trust though on paper it seems like it would at least make it to 12" with ease. The overall expanded diameter might be a little on the small side though. I wonder what the cutoff is. I've never asked Doc before.

[TGS]

So we are looking at "essentially the same performance as .38 special +p," according to Brassfetcher, with 20% less recoil and an extra round in the cylinder. That sounds like a winner to me.

Let's not forget that you can also shoot .32 H&R, .32 S&W Long, and .32 S&W in a .327 Fed Mag gun. That really makes it a winner.

[Tamara]

Fwiw there is not a single hydrashok load that performs to the FBI standards on a consistent and repeatable basis.

The only Hydrashok load I ever use for social guns is the .38 Spl 147gr +P+, and that only if I'm out of 158gr LSWC-HP +P and 135gr GDHP +P for some reason...

[Tamara]

Let's not forget that you can also shoot .32 H&R, .32 S&W Long, and .32 S&W in a .327 Fed Mag gun. That really makes it a winner.

Well, I'm not sure how much that would affect my decision. "You can shoot a bunch of different rounds that are much rarer and more expensive than .38 Spl in a gun that could otherwise chamber the nearly-ubiquitous .38 Spl..." Not much of a selling point...

[Sparks2112]

The only Hydrashok load I ever use for social guns is the .38 Spl 147gr +P+, and that only if I'm out of 158gr LSWC-HP +P and 135gr GDHP +P for some reason...

If you're ever out of the gold dot let me know. I can get it pretty easily whether or not it's on our page, and Indy is close.

[TGS]

Well, I'm not sure how much that would affect my decision. "You can shoot a bunch of different rounds that are much rarer and more expensive than .38 Spl in a gun that could otherwise chamber the nearly-ubiquitous .38 Spl..." Not much of a selling point...

$14.95/50 rounds, .32 S&W Long (http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/50rds-32-sw-long-prvi-partizan-98gr-lrn-ammo/cName/32-sw-long-fmj-lrn)-That's actually cheaper than the average .38 I see. Great for newer shooters or lower cost practice to a 32H&R or 327 carry load.

[Tamara]

$14.95/50 rounds, .32 S&W Long (http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/50rds-32-sw-long-prvi-partizan-98gr-lrn-ammo/cName/32-sw-long-fmj-lrn)-That's actually cheaper than the average .38 I see. Great for newer shooters or lower cost practice to a 32H&R or 327 carry load.

Don't get me wrong, I think that .32 S&W Long is an awesome "bridge caliber" between rimfire guns and real centerfire defensive calibers (http://cosmolineandrust.blogspot.com/2007/09/sunday-smith-16-model-31-1-1971.html), but your average shooter is more focused on what's available at The Mountain of Geese more than they are what's available online...

[JAD]

Personally, I look at 12" as more of a penetration floor than I used to. YMMV.

I looked around the room one time and counted the people I saw who had >20" of meat in front of their spines. In this town, man, that's a /lot/.

[DanH]

I looked around the room one time and counted the people I saw who had >20" of meat in front of their spines. In this town, man, that's a /lot/.

heyyyyyyy

I resemble that remark ;p

[TGS]

I resemble that remark ;p

For once, I think I'm seeing someone write "resemble" instead of "resent" and it actually works as a pun.

[DanH]

dude, if you only knew ;p

[TGS]

dude, if you only knew ;p

Oh shit, dude! I'm sorry! I totally wasn't trying to call you fat or anything by writing that. Let me just make that clear.

I was legitimately just surprised that someone used that phrase correctly for once. Kinda like "behoove" and how some people write/say "be who of you" instead.....except "be who of you" isn't a 3 Stooges bastardization joke on the phrase like saying, "I resemble that remark."

[DanH]

lol I said it because I was calling MYSELF fat ;p

[Al T.]

Dan, you are not fat, you have "organic body armor". :cool:

[Rich]

Any thoughts on this cartridge for a BUG? The Speer Gold Dot load is 100gr at 1500 fps, which sounds like a perfectly acceptable performance but I was wondering if anyone had done any ballistic gel testing. It certainly seems to outperform a .380, and maybe approach or exceed a .38 special.
Any input as to shootability would also be welcome.

1500FPS

Would the 327FM have more recoil than the 38spl+P

When it comes to AW Jframes I wouldnt want any extra recoil.

Until then I will stick with 38spl 148gr WC / and win ranger bonded 130 on speed strip and /speed loader

[DanH]

From what I have seen, via Brassfetcher and others, is that it has less recoil than .38special.
organic body armor huh...I may have to add a sig line now...