P30 Mods with TLG content

[Dagga Boy]

They just posted a article I did on my P30 and the modifications I have made at Modern Service Weapons. The Todd Green LEM is mentioned as well.

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=1097#more-1097

This is the new format that 10-8 forums is transitioning to.

[Kyle Reese]

Great article, Sir. Thank you for sharing.

[breakingtime91]

Outstanding article and put another nail in the coffin for my 2011 born gen 3 glock 17. My wife will be thrilled :cool:

[JBP55]

Great write up on the HK pistol.

[SeriousStudent]

Thanks very much for the detailed explanations, especially regarding the trigger. I was eyeballing your P30 in class, and wondering exactly what you had done to it.

[TCinVA]

Nice article, DB.

[WDW]

This has me wanting to switch from a 17 to a P30. I would like some tactile feedback when reholstering & a tad more first shot grace period under stress. But then I'd have to change my username.

[GJM]

Todd's "man crush" on the P30 aside, most people shoot a Glock better, and the P30 takes a higher skill level to operate at, that close to a Glock, level. The LEM skills are also more perishable and that trigger is harder to learn support hand shooting. The difference is probably irrelevant in real use, but definitely quantifiable across a range of PF type drills and competition. My best guess is the P30 costs you about .75 in a FASTest, and 5-10 points on a Rogers 125 point school test. Whether that difference is great enough to outweigh the hammer, reliability and accuracy of the HK, only you can decide. The Glock is my primary system, and HK is secondary, and I say this with my own affection for HK LEM pistols that has endured for years. The Gadget, though, is a game changer for the Glock AIWB.

[JonInWA]

Every time I get close to actually getting a P30 or HK45, I get confronted with mutiple realities: 1) Out of all my platforms, I shoot the best with my Glocks; 2) I have significant time, resources (hardware and software) invested in my Glock platforms; 3) Other that "just wanting" one, I'm really kinda hard-pressed to coherently discerning any significant advantages that going to an HK as an adjunct to my Glocks would realistically provide; 4) That I've already kind of got the DAO action adequately covered with my Beretta 92D, which I've also amassed significant hammer- and dry-fire experience with, and 5) That I've got the DA/SA 9mm duty gun spectrum more than adequately covered with my (wait for it) Ruger P89 (hey, no disparaging comments allowed-it's a very late production example that seems to have singularly benefited from Ruger's top-down 200 product and processes manufacturing improvement-mine has a very nice DA triggerpull, a crisp SA pull, and a very short and discernible reset point-and is an inch -to-inch-and-a-half tack-driver as well, and exceptionally reliable)-and the later-production ergo modifications are surprisingly effective.

Yeah, in the back of my mind, I'll continue to have a residual desire for a LEM P30L (with the TLG trigger set-up), but unless the gun fairy sends one my way gratis, it's unlikely I'll proceed any further...plus I have a Wifely Review Board...(and you guys probably know the chances of a $1K-plus {yeah, there's that holster/magazine component portion of the equation to be factored in to the purchase as well} discretionary income flying past that with any chance of approval...) (and I'm otherwise unwilling to trade/sell anything out of my collection to facilitate what would probably something to fulfill merely a dillitantistic craving as opposed to a realistic need).

And further realistically, even if I got one, I'd probably be fundamentally unwilling to dedicate the training and hammer time necessary to truly master/take advantage of the gun, as such time/resources would be by necessity at the expensive of my Glock platform.

Yeah, I hate dispassionate and realistic analysis...But thanks for the article (and heads-up on the upcoming 10-8 Forum phase-out) Nyeti...

Best, Jon

[gtmtnbiker98]

Every time I get close to actually getting a P30 or HK45, I get confronted with mutiple realities: 1) Out of all my platforms, I shoot the best with my Glocks; 2) I have significant time, resources (hardware and software) invested in my Glock platforms; 3) Other that "just wanting" one, I'm really kinda hard-pressed to coherently discerning any significant advantages that going to an HK as an adjunct to my Glocks would realistically provide; 4) That I've already kind of got the DAO action adequately covered with my Beretta 92D, which I've also amassed significant hammer- and dry-fire experience with, and 5) That I've got the DA/SA 9mm duty gun spectrum more than adequately covered with my (wait for it) Ruger P89 (hey, no disparaging comments allowed-it's a very late production example that seems to have singularly benefited from Ruger's top-down 200 product and processes manufacturing improvement-mine has a very nice DA triggerpull, a crisp SA pull, and a very shrt and discernible reset point-and is an inch -to-inch-and-a-half tack-driver as well, and exceptionally reliable)-and the later-production ergo modifications are surprisingly effective.

Yeah, in the back of my mind, I'll continue to have a residual desire for a LEM P30L (with the TLG trigger set-up), but unless the gun fairy sends one my way gratis, it's unlikely I'll proceed any further...plus I have a Wifely Review Board...(and you guys probably know the chances of a $1K-plus {yeah, there's that holster/magazine component portion of the equation to be factored in to the purchase as well} discretionary income flying past that with any chance of approval...) (and I'm otherwise unwilling to trade/sell anything out of my collection to facilitate what would probably something to fulfill merely a dillitantistic craving as opposed to a realistic need).

And further realistically, even if I got one, I'd probably be fundamentally unwilling to dedicate the training and hammer time necessary to truly master/take advantage of the gun, as such time/resources would be by necessity at the expensive of my Glock platform.

Yeah, I hate dispassionate and realistic analysis...But thanks for the article (and heads-up on the upcoming 10-8 Forum phase-out) Nyeti...

Best, Jon
So, in summary, no HK in your future.:p

[JonInWA]

So, in summary, no HK in your future.:p

Not unless you're the afore-mentioned HK gun fairy (hmm, I might want to re-phrase that...:eek:)...

Best, Jon

[JodyH]

I came to the conclusion a couple of years ago that the LEM P-series (P2000, P2000SK for me) H&K's were the best "business" guns out there.
The durability, reliability, inherent accuracy and capacity to size ratio are comparable to the competition.
But it's the hammer and trigger that put it over the top for me.
The hammer gives me an added safety margin when carrying AIWB.
The trigger gives me an added safety margin with the longer take-up. While the trigger might come up fractionally slower on the timer, the difference between 4.5 shots per second and 5.5 shots per second (A zone at 7 yards) isn't enough for me to lose sleep over.

[Alaskapopo]

I came to the conclusion a couple of years ago that the LEM P-series (P2000, P2000SK for me) H&K's were the best "business" guns out there.
The durability, reliability, inherent accuracy and capacity to size ratio are comparable to the competition.
But it's the hammer and trigger that put it over the top for me.
The hammer gives me an added safety margin when carrying AIWB.
The trigger gives me an added safety margin with the longer take-up. While the trigger might come up fractionally slower on the timer, the difference between 4.5 shots per second and 5.5 shots per second (A zone at 7 yards) isn't enough for me to lose sleep over.

Its all perspective I guess. For me safety is my responsiblity and I know the gun will not fire if I don't put my finger on the trigger. Also for me a gain of 1 shot per second s huge and could save your life in real life. Things happen fast. But to each his own. I am not sure why HK fans that don't like Glock don't go in droves to the Walther PPQ. Its got a great trigger, its reliable has good ergonomics etc.
Pat

[GJM]

Who said one second per shot -- closer to .05.

I can't imagine a passionate LEM shooter, especially an appendix carrying one, warming up the short trigger and lack of hammer on a PPQ.

[JodyH]

The difference between .21 splits (LEM) and .18 splits (Glock) is nothing to break a sweat over.
I can still empty a 13 round mag in <4sec. from the draw, getting off 2 more shots in that same 4 sec. won't make a bit of difference.

[Dagga Boy]

The difference between .21 splits (LEM) and .18 splits (Glock) is nothing to break a sweat over.
I can still empty a 13 round mag in <4sec. from the draw, getting off 2 more shots in that same 4 sec. won't make a bit of difference.

I don't get that wrapped around the axle anymore on pure speed (and there was a time when I was looking for every 100th of a second) on somebody's test that has no threat discretion. It doesn't compute with my real world pistol deployments. The problem is usually shooting too fast. With the P30, I sacrifice some trigger movement for trigger control and decision making time on the press. I get a gun that reloads far faster and more positive. I can run the gun and all its controls with both hands-one handed. I can tailor the grip to exactly what I want for my hand size. Add the unquestioned reliability, and I will give up a little on splits. Like I have told Todd, the difference in 5 rounds a second or six maybe the difference in a good shooting and number 6 being excessive. As long as I am shooting faster than I can evaluate and react to another human, I am good. I try to look at the entire triad and where my pistol fits in to the balance rather than pure performance on a one dimensional non moving piece of cardboard.

[YVK]

Its all perspective I guess. For me safety is my responsiblity and I know the gun will not fire if I don't put my finger on the trigger.
Pat

It is correct theoretically. Practically, it is a very black and white take on this, and reality isn't dichotomous. High level shooters, those who spend a lot of time on this, still get DQ'd routinely for NDs.
Here is a question for everyone who runs, or used to run, short and light triggers: have you never squeezed a round earlier than you wanted?
My experience: in 14K rounds I had through Glocks I had 5 NDs, shooting prematurely when pushing speed. Not making excuses, just stating the fact. As a result, in order to guarantee no ND, I have to slow down with a Glock just a bit.
In almost same round count with LEM I had zero such NDs. I can't outrun LEM, and therefore can work it without hitches. My "ND-free guaranteed" time on a first shot is faster with LEM.

[ToddG]

Anyone who thinks he's too good/smart/safe to make any mistake at any time under any circumstance should call the Vatican... they've been waiting for your arrival.

As I've said before, look at commercial airline pilots. They have far more training than most shooters -- even serious shooters -- and get training that is far more realistic, not to mention countless hours of operational experience every year. Yet they still make mistakes each year that kill hundreds.

We can vilify folks who make mistakes, telling ourselves we'd never do that.
Or we can learn from the mistakes made by others, to help avoid ever doing that.

[GJM]

Not to be too persnickety, but in 2011 there wasn't even a single fatal US airline crash, and same for three out of the last four years.

YVK, if your sights are on the target, I doesn't consider a shot fired a bit prematurely, later than I anticipated, or that misses my target to be an ND.

Nyeti, isn't decision making during the trigger press a function of what is between our ears, as opposed to the relatively minor difference in characteristics of the trigger, when comparing a LEM trigger to something like a factory Glock or M&P DCAEK trigger?

[YVK]

YVK, if your sights are on the target, I doesn't consider a shot fired a bit prematurely, later than I anticipated, or that misses my target to be an ND.

This may open a whole new can of worms for a discussion, but I consider any premature shot that goes over target's head an ND. To me it is the same as to say the sights weren't really on the target.

[GJM]

This may open a whole new can of worms for a discussion, but I consider any premature shot that goes over target's head an ND. To me it is the same as to say the sights weren't really on the target.

How is that different than a premature shot that hits the target, or a perfectly timed shot that misses the target?

[YVK]

Both of the above imply that the cardinal rule of finger off the trigger before sights are on the target wasn't factually violated . My scenario, specifically how I outlined it, is an example of an opposite.

[ToddG]

Not to be too persnickety, but in 2011 there wasn't even a single fatal US airline crash, and same for three out of the last four years.

I stand corrected and, as someone who flies quite a bit and whose wife flies even more, I am comforted to be wrong. :cool:

[Dagga Boy]

Nyeti, isn't decision making during the trigger press a function of what is between our ears, as opposed to the relatively minor difference in characteristics of the trigger, when comparing a LEM trigger to something like a factory Glock or M&P DCAEK trigger?

Its not the decision making process. If your pistol is in any way pointed at a person, you had better have made a decision that they are a lethal threat. If your finger is on the trigger, you had better have made that decision to act on that lethal threat. Now, what can happen (and has happened to me on several occasions) is that you are pressing on a subject that you very much intend to shoot and the situation will change. For most people in shootings, time will slow to a crawl and it is amazing what you can perceive. In my own case, time has slowed down to a crawl and my visual perception has increased to an incredible level. I have also found that there is often a lot of movement going on and you will be tracking that movement and it should be with the sights. It is because of my own experience that I don't tend to get onto the trigger until my sights are fully on and tracking. I could be wrong, but I am not basing this on what I think might happen, it is based on what has happened to me for real and on enough occasions that I look at it as a trend rather than an anomaly. In the case of the trigger itself, I was more aware of the "movement" of the trigger as opposed to a tactile "feel" of the trigger. Also, in the case of the situations where I was using a pistol with a hammer (and why I was probably so aware of it), was that I was using DA first round guns with exposed hammers and I could "see" my trigger press and that was a stronger sensation than the definable "feel".

[GJM]

Not sure I am following your point, without further explanation. So are you suggesting the length of the LEM trigger is an advantage because it allows you to start the firing process, and then stop it prior to breaking the shot? If so, wouldn't a DA Sig, or N frame revolver, be better yet, since their trigger press is longer and heavier than the LEM?

[Dagga Boy]

Not sure I am following your point, without further explanation. So are you suggesting the length of the LEM trigger is an advantage because it allows you to start the firing process, and then stop it prior to breaking the shot? If so, wouldn't a DA Sig, or N frame revolver, be better yet, since their trigger press is longer and heavier than the LEM?

In the case of the LEM, I am basing my thoughts on a theory. A majority of the cases I dealt with were with a N frame Smith, Sig P-220 or USP 45F with a DA/SA trigger. In a majority of the cases I distinctly remember the take up and movement and not the weight. It was far more distinct than the the shooting I had where I used a Remington 870. All of the "stopped" shootings were with longer trigger movement guns. What the LEM gives me is the take up without the weight, and a level of consistency the DA/SA doesn't have, along with a moving hammer on every shot. I used to tell folks that my 1911 was the finest close quarter gun-fighting pistol ever made (which I still believe). The problem was that I was rarely in gunfights, and the goal was always prisoner taking. I did a ton of prisoner taking and (at the time) my SIG P-220 was exceptional for this. That same Sig P-220 also delivered a perfect 10-ring crossing chest shot with instant (and I mean not enough time for a second shot INSTANT) incapacitation, without issue when I needed it to. I saw numerous in-field on demand spectacular shots made by my people with DA/SA guns once we spent the time with a ton of repetitive work with the triggers and shot pacing in line with that trigger action. Also keep in mind that competitive shooting is also a lot like gun-fighting......lots of shooting, very little prisoner taking, assessing, physically fighting while also managing a pistol, or searching, so those same characteristics that we find work well in that format also translate well to pure gun-fighting pistols. Can all of those tasks be done with a gun with a lighter trigger with less take-up....heck yea. They just have less room for error. Can a DA/SA, LEM, or DA revolver be a used effectively in a pure gunfight....heck yea. They just require more work. Take your pick of what is important to YOU and then train.

I have always had a huge level of respect for both Todd Green and Ernest Langdon as they have proven that you can run a DA/SA gun at speed and had to work harder at it. Notice that both seem to have gone to the TLG LEM as the way to go in a trigger.

[GJM]

I have always had a huge level of respect for both Todd Green and Ernest Langdon as they have proven that you can run a DA/SA gun at speed and had to work harder at it. Notice that both seem to have gone to the TLG LEM as the way to go in a trigger.

Despite his professed love for the LEM, in TLG's case, the last few years have been with a Glock and 1911 trigger. I have been quite interested in what Ernie Langdon thinks after his time with the LEM, but have heard nothing.

[Dagga Boy]

Here is Todd's recent commentary:

"My love for the H&K P30 pistol is no secret. I still consider it the single best handgun on the market today and even though I’m enjoying the heck out of the 1911, there is no comparison in terms of reliability or ease of maintenance (not to mention that my box stock P30 was actually more accurate than my 1911)."

That is after the Glock test. Notice I never contended that the LEM was a better pure shooting trigger. The TLG LEM is a very workable trigger for a daily carry gun carried for defensive use and crisis management, that also has a bunch of very solid positives in other areas.

In Ernest Langdon's case, he is not doing much on the firearms side of the industry and is working in another part of the defense industry and is carrying a pair of P30's by choice. It is the same choice I made. I carry these things by choice at this point, and I never thought I would drift away from the Glock in the 9mm platform.

[GJM]

I am pretty familiar with Todd's thinking, and to my knowledge, the last time he fired a P30 was mine, at AFHS in ABQ. I also razz him, as despite his love for the P30, I think he has less than 50 rounds thru one in the last year.

I would be very interested in Ernie's analysis of the performance loss, if any, with the P30 compared to the other platforms he is familiar with.

Nyeti, if your definition of "defensive use and crisis management" includes a really skilled guy shooting at you, would you still choose the P30 over your Glock? The only reason the Glock is my number one platform, and HK is number two, is I shoot the Glock better, especially support hand only. Wish it were different, but it isn't.

[Dagga Boy]

If I am at the point where the difference in a trigger with a Glock and a P30 is the deciding factor between me and a opponents skill level, I have screwed up badly. It has gotten to the point where my level of treachery, tactics, aggression, downright cheating has failed. The one time I was very behind the curve and nearly killed in an ambush was while using textbook tactics, I was dealing with a treacherous little gang banger who did a good job of cheating.

I probably have carried a Glock longer than most here. The guy who I tagged for life with the full imprint of the entire front end of a G-17 in the side of his head was in 1988. I wish I was carrying my N frame.....;).

If what you are preparing for is a straight up gunfight with a highly skilled gunfighter, then use what you think is best for that. Personally, I would be expending FAR more energy into figuring out a way to counter that highly skilled gunfighter with a means of beating him or her without them every knowing I was there rather than depending on what the trigger in my pistol feels like.

[High Country]

Nyeti,

Thank you for sharing your perspective in this thread. You made some very valid points which I have not considered in the past.

[GJM]

If what you are preparing for is a straight up gunfight with a highly skilled gunfighter, then use what you think is best for that. Personally, I would be expending FAR more energy into figuring out a way to counter that highly skilled gunfighter with a means of beating him or her without them every knowing I was there rather than depending on what the trigger in my pistol feels like.

The gunfighter analogy is shorthand for answering the question of, on what basis you will carry a pistol, when you know you shoot others better. It is mostly a conversation I am having with myself and a few other current and former P30 folks.

My P30 is accurate, my Gen 4 Glock 9's are equally accurate. My P30 is reliable, and so are my Glock pistols. The P30 has a hammer, but the Gadget equalizes that. I have shot enough similar tests and drills, that I know I shoot a Glock measurably better. I really like the P30, but every time I carry one, I wonder why I am not carrying the pistol I shoot best.

[Dagga Boy]

I try to look at "the big picture" in many of these gear selection endeavors. I have some guns that I shoot REALLY good. One of my old competition 1911's was a real piece of work for hitting lots of small things fast. I had to be very disciplined on its trigger in match scenarios to keep it from going bang early. I would never carry that gun on the street. My street reality is that most gunfights and shootings with pistols tend to have a fistfight involved in them as well either before, during, or after. I would venture that Southnarc will attest to the same thing. I take this into account in my gear selection. Other people have a different level of experience or a different idea and they make decisions based on what works for them. I carried a Rogers, and then Safariland 070 for most of my career. That holster is considered horribly slow by anyone's standards and I am probably the only one on the planet who has ever won a match shooting out of one. With that said, I very much owe my life to that holster and its retention level on two occasions. Would I recommend them to everyone-no. Would I recommend them for those who are arresting lots of people who are well versed in taking guns from cops-yes. Notice that I have never said the LEM is the best trigger out there. I have come to the opinion that it is probably the best Cop trigger out there for most LEO's.

This is not that I think Glocks and 1911's are not usable for people management. That is not even remotely true nor what my experience has been, as I have done plenty of very intensive bad guy interaction with both systems. What I can say from first hand experience is that while the Glock and 1911 offer a trigger that has more margin for error on the trigger for shooting, they have less margin for error if you get on them early. The LEM has sort of a "medium" for margin for error on both ends, while the DA guns have less margin for error on the trigger for the shooting part, and more margin for error if you get on them early. I have worked extensively with all three, and at this point in life settled on the "medium" in a system that I get some great benefits from on all of its other characteristics-the HK P30.

[JodyH]

For every high noon shootout between steely eyed gunmen you have a thousand confrontations where pure shooting skill is way down the priority list.

Dark parking lot, unknown contact at 10 yards acting like a squirrel on meth.
You see a flash of steel in their hand.
1.50 sec. draw and a smooth press out taking up the travel on your trigger.
Whoa... that's not a knife, it's a Zippo lighter.
Stand down.

I'd rather have that additional 1/10th inch of trigger travel cushion on the LEM for that extra heartbeat of situation analysis, but that's just me.
Especially since the "time to first shot" advantage of the short light triggers in minimized by a good press out.
And the .02-.05 split advantage of a Glock vs. LEM only shows up on the timer.

In a FoF like ECQC "draw speed" and "split times" were not the deciding factor in any evolution I participated in or observed.
MUC and the "3 P's" were far more important than what gear was being used.

[GJM]

I have no idea what the results would be, but it would be an interesting project to dissect Tom Givens' data base of shootings and figure out for that sample what was and was not important in terms of shooting ability.

On one hand, it is easy to say that we are discussing inconsequential increments. On the other hand, if you spend as much time as we do practicing and performance tracking, and understand how difficult small improvements can be to achieve, it is hard to leave performance on the table. An argument can be made that Pistol-Forum exists primarily for the achievement, study and discussion of inconsequential increments.

I guess at the end of the day, these are not black and white issues, but rather shades of gray.

[JHC]

Fascinating discussion. On the same new 10-8 blog there is this article about light triggers vs communicative smooth triggers in LE work.

This writer concludes: "These days, a smooth action job on a relatively stock Glock trigger is probably one of the most “shootable” triggers out there. I actually prefer it as it gives me enough sponge to prep it aggressively, but the control to get off of it when the conditions change. And my trigger control is better for it, keeping me honest even at the pace of .20 splits. Same with the M&P."


http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=1263

Seems a discussion of fairly fine matters of degree but not differences in kind as say between a 3.5 lb Wilson CQB triggers vs . . .

[JodyH]

When you track Todd's numbers on various drills you see there is practically zero difference between times shot with the LEM, Glock and 1911.
His 2 to the 3x5 varies more day to day than trigger to trigger, same with the post reload 8" splits.
How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

[GJM]

Jody, the numbers I am focusing on are mine. The difference for me between a Glock and P30 is .50-.75 on a FASTest, 5-10 points on a Rogers School test, similar spreads on virtually every drill, but a significantly larger difference shooting support hand only at speed, where the P30 is much harder for me. And, to shoot the P30 nearly as well as the Glock, I need to really be on my game.

After shooting the P30 solidly for a month, I shot 96 and 108 at Rogers with the P30. Picked the Glock up, after not shooting one for a month, and shot 112 and 116. If there was no difference I would be shooting a P30 as primary.

[JV_]

The difference for me between a Glock and P30 is .50-.75 on a FASTestFor me, my P30 FAST runs are about .3-.5s slower than with the Glock. Most of the time is difference is on the head shots. I did learn some tricks to speeding up my head shots after I dropped the P30, I wonder if I could have cut down that difference a bit.

I find the LEM trigger easy to anticipate (especially WHO/SHO), and I have to slow myself down to focus on the trigger pull. After thousands of rounds, I couldn't get myself to run it on auto-pilot.

My splits are about .05s faster with the Glock. It was about .25s with the P30.

I toy with the idea of trying the P30 again, but I won't buy one to do it.

[ToddG]

In a FoF like ECQC "draw speed" and "split times" were not the deciding factor in any evolution I participated in or observed.

While I understand where you're coming from, I think FOF is a bad way to assess things like that. The bullets have no effect. I've seen people run FOF scenarios where an incredible fast draw and shot to the face didn't stop the action (and appropriately so in terms of the lesson being tested) but probably would have led to a significantly different start to the fight if the bullet had been real.

That becomes even more true when you start talking about things like splits. How do you evaluate the usefulness of a fast split in FOF?

I'm not suggesting that a fast draw or fast splits are more important than awareness, avoidance, etc. But assessing them all in context can't happen through format that eliminates the actual effect of the ballistic side of things.

[JodyH]

But you also cannot discount the ineffectiveness of handgun rounds as fight stoppers.
There's been many a round skipped off of a cro-magnon forehead with no effect.

Back to the trigger characteristics debate:

The LEM is fractionally harder to control under optimal shooting conditions.
The LEM is fractionally easier to maintain control of under sub-optimal conditions.

A civilian context gunfight has a much higher probability of taking place under sub-optimal conditions.
By sub-optimal conditions I mean the shooter is suffering from adrenaline dump, possibly entangled or otherwise engaged physically, possibly injured, deadly force justification and the environment can be fluid.
One second you have justification and a good target, a split second later you have no target or no justification.

For a "fighting gun" my preference is to have a trigger that's takes moderate effort to control but is easy to maintain control of.
:cool:

[Dagga Boy]

I am also not a huge fan of FOF by itself. Its a means to look at things. There is one lab I care about. It is a pain to access, takes a long time to see any patterns, has non-replicable results, and is unforgiving of mistakes, and most folks can't or are not willing to commit to what it takes to buy the ticket. The street has shown me what to take from competition and what to leave on the range. The street has taught me what to take from FOF and what to leave. The street has opened my eyes to what to take from various wound ballistics testing protocols and what to leave. It has taught me what gear works in what scenarios and what is lacking, and what is important. I have seen very much first hand what the ramifications of both lack of training and improper training. Some training methods have stood out as working really well. I have seen the good, the bad and the ugly of every trigger system listed here....for real. In my OPINION, based on first hand experience on more than an anomaly level, I have formulated a reason for going with the TLG LEM (and I went kicking and screaming). I have found that a "balance" is needed and there was a time I paid way too much attention to just the Marksmanship side of things. It is still a "equal" leg of the equation, but no longer the longest leg.

Others have different experiences in their lab. If you feel that your lab is reflective of your world and your capabilities then rock out with your Glock out.

[ToddG]

But you also cannot discount the ineffectiveness of handgun rounds as fight stoppers.

Except that's a myth based on a much different fact, namely that sometimes handgun rounds do poorly at causing quick incapacitation. There are plenty of instances, not to mention plenty of dash cam/7-11 video, showing that getting hit frequently does have a noticeable effect. Just because it's not a guarantee 100% of the time doesn't mean it's not there. After all, if we operated from a plan of everything failing, why bother a gun in the first place?

As I said in my previous post, I'm completely aware of why some instructors let FOF "fights" go on after seemingly good hits by the student. And as you and I have discussed before, I'm completely opposed to the "I'm hit, I'm out" approach that others use where a single contact anywhere on the body results in a preprogrammed surrender. There is a point to FOF training and it's very valuable. But the point is not to make assessments on things that can't be properly modeled by FOF, and anything that has to do with the rapidity of cessation of hostility due to ballistic impact is, by its very nature, one such impossible thing.

[JHC]

Except that's a myth based on a much different fact, namely that sometimes handgun rounds do poorly at causing quick incapacitation. There are plenty of instances, not to mention plenty of dash cam/7-11 video, showing that getting hit frequently does have a noticeable effect. Just because it's not a guarantee 100% of the time doesn't mean it's not there. After all, if we operated from a plan of everything failing, why bother a gun in the first place?

As I said in my previous post, I'm completely aware of why some instructors let FOF "fights" go on after seemingly good hits by the student. And as you and I have discussed before, I'm completely opposed to the "I'm hit, I'm out" approach that others use where a single contact anywhere on the body results in a preprogrammed surrender. There is a point to FOF training and it's very valuable. But the point is not to make assessments on things that can't be properly modeled by FOF, and anything that has to do with the rapidity of cessation of hostility due to ballistic impact is, by its very nature, one such impossible thing.

I have seen Vickers quoted re head/face hits that while the skull may deflect and do weird things to bullet, hits to the head almost always alter the shootee behavior dramatically in a good way even if not DRT/down and out/incapacitated.

[Mr_White]

I have seen Vickers quoted re head/face hits that while the skull may deflect and do weird things to bullet, hits to the head almost always alter the shootee behavior dramatically in a good way even if not DRT/down and out/incapacitated.

I believe I've seen nyeti say essentially the same thing a number of times in various internet fora. nyeti?

[Dagga Boy]

While we are on a tangent.......FOF can be VERY valuable when run right and VERY detrimental when done wrong. The best thing I ever did for my SWAT cops is to give them exactly (1) round of Sims in their MP-5's and (1) round in their pistols. All of a sudden, tactics and surgical shooting were the name of the game and not paintball. Especially when my bad guys had a 6 shot revolver full of Sims. ITTS have also had very good luck "recreating" actual events to see how different people handle them. I think FOF is really good for training the Weapons Handling and Tactics part of the equation, but can very much give a false reading on the shooting part.

[GJM]

Back to the trigger characteristics debate:

The LEM is fractionally harder to control under optimal shooting conditions.
The LEM is fractionally easier to maintain control of under sub-optimal conditions.



As to measuring the LEM shooting, that seems pretty straightforward. How do you measure "easier to maintain control of under sub-optimal conditions?"

[Dagga Boy]

I believe I've seen nyeti say essentially the same thing a number of times in various internet fora. nyeti?

Every case of a shot to the head I have investigated resulted in immediate incapacitation, even if it didn't result in death. LAPD Metro has had the same results according to Scott Reitz. On the other hand, I had one large mean gang member shot by another gang member in the temple in a crossing shot. He was talking to me from the time I arrived on scene, through initial treatment and while loaded into the ambulance. At the hospital, I saw the X-Ray with a .45ACP FMJ round lodged behind his right eye (entry on left temple). The doctor said he would never be the same, but it didn't appear that he was the brightest light in the room to begin with, so nobody may know. Sometimes having a small brain in a big head helps.....:;).

I have also never seen a immediate stop from a pelvic shot. Just a pissed off guy on the ground if it works. Good way to immobilize a mover (especially with a rifle), but a poor response for a failure to stop.

[Dagga Boy]

As to measuring the LEM shooting, that seems pretty straightforward. How do you measure "easier to maintain control of under sub-optimal conditions?"

I am not being a smart ass on this. The key is to be in a crap load of sub optimal situations to learn how to work in total chaos. If you can't do that, then maybe training with and listening to people who have maybe "a way". Some guys have used "theory based scientific means", but I am a bit (no, VERY) skeptical of people who think they have this figured out from FOF and watching videos. I just went and trained with guys who mastered working in total chaos and adopted what they found works.

A point on that with the guys I trained with and "triggers". Most of the guys I learned from were, and most still are "1911" guys. They also all shy away from competitive shooting with them (kind of a weird thing). They are to a man the most safety conscious individuals you will find and have zero (and I mean ZERO) tolerance for both safety violations and non surgical shots. It is a world where a shot on a hostage target or a negligent discharge (even down range) is a instant career ender. They were at a well tested and trained place to be able to run those triggers under extreme stress, but it came from work and experience. I have been away from the daily grind of hunting bad guys at night as a full time job. I have given myself a little leeway with the TLG LEM. Also keep in mind, I did not like working around many of my co-workers with both Glocks and 1911's. The reality is that many who know better and are used to working in stress will still "check" that trigger by touching it when stressed or in fear (and if you are never scared, you're a liar). I have a feeling that those who have never been in a knock down fight for their life or are facing a gun in a real human's hand the first time will not be doing the same sub-conscious thing.

[JodyH]

As to measuring the LEM shooting, that seems pretty straightforward. How do you measure "easier to maintain control of under sub-optimal conditions?"
Shoot a crap load of rounds under a crap load of conditions.
When the weather is below freezing and it's sleeting outside, I'm the dummy that's at the range shooting drills.
Do a few minutes of kickbox sparring then pick up your handgun and shoot a drill, yup that's my style.
The match stage that everybody whines about the funky shooting positions, the "surprise" or the physical exertion involved, I designed it.
:cool:

[DocGKR]

Nyeti--Great comments!

[NETim]

Damn! This thread is going to end up costing me some money. :(

[GJM]

Nyeti, am I reading you correctly that, based on your real world experience, you believe a Glock trigger, with factory trigger parts is unsafe for defensive carry?

Aside from individual officer personally purchased firearms, is there any military, federal or local LE organization issuing the P30 with the TLG trigger? Do we think there has been a single instance ever, of a P30 with a TLG trigger being used in an actual shooting?

I am the last person to diss a P30 -- I have 9 of them, close to 100,000 rounds down range with LEM triggers, have attended a bunch of courses, and used the pistol defensively for years including to stop a charge with a moose two years ago. That said, I don't understand the P30 LEM being the holy grail of defensive triggers. To me, they are all just tools, and it hard for me to get that excited about the differences in the +/- 5 pound triggers on my Glock, P30 or DCAEK M&P.

[JodyH]

I don't think anyone is saying the Glock trigger is unsafe for carry.
I don't think anyone is saying the LEM is impossible to shoot well.

Like I said earlier, how many angels can dance on a pin head.
The only reason we can debate this topic is we are good enough shooters to know there's a difference.
You err on the side of .05 faster splits and I err on the side of 1/10" longer take-up... ="angels on a pin head".

[WDW]

I'm damn sick of my jacked up ejection with my 17. Ill be switching to an LEM P30 Monday. My big bore Glocks run fine but the 9's are f***** up & I'm done messing with them.

[GJM]

Did you try a 30274 ejector and an Apex extractor?

[WDW]

Did you try a 30274 ejector and an Apex extractor?

Got the ejector but the apex extractors are perpetually out of stock. I'm transitioning to AIWB & I think the P30 is what I need. I put quite a few rounds through one today & really liked it.

[Dagga Boy]

Nyeti, am I reading you correctly that, based on your real world experience, you believe a Glock trigger, with factory trigger parts is unsafe for defensive carry?

Aside from individual officer personally purchased firearms, is there any military, federal or local LE organization issuing the P30 with the TLG trigger? Do we think there has been a single instance ever, of a P30 with a TLG trigger being used in an actual shooting?

Not even remotely close, remember I'm the guy who has been carrying a Glock AIWB for over two decades. I believe that you sacrifice "margin for error" for "ease of shooting" (I also felt better carrying a HK45C AIWB than the Glock).
My last day on the job had me getting ready to center punch a very well deserving scumbag who had just buried the open tangs of a fist loaded crescent wrench into my left eye (THANK YOU OAKLEY!) and was trying to carjack a car in the middle of one of the busiest interstates in the country. Just as I was going to shoot him, I noted two little kids faces plastered in the window of the vehicle directly behind him and knew I had a backstop issue. I closed the distance in order to take a head shot when the guy charged and did a muzzle grab. I used my standard retention response and easily recovered the pistol and instead of following the gun grab like he was supposed to (the part where he gets shot), the guy threw his arms up in the air (in front of a zillion witnesses). He then played a game where he kept getting in between me and a buddy who stopped who was off duty and kept presenting a crossfire situation. Here is the thing. I didn't have any issues with the gun handling in that incident in not getting my finger on the trigger. Again too many things going on and too much assessment and evaluation with a ton of external factors. Now, take your typical once a year qualifying LEO with a Glock, and your kids are the one in the car and let me know if that gives you a warm and fuzzy. I am not saying that a ND would occur, chances are they would likely have shot not even seen the backstop problem, but again, the margin of error is simply smaller. Same with the rip on the retention response.

I am not aware of a TLG LEM P30 shooting, but one of my guys did a great job smoking a guy pointing a .357 Magnum revolver at him while running down a sidewalk while my guy steered his car with his knee with a USP45F with a LEM. Perfect center chest shot with a single .45 +P Federal HST and he went down VERY hard.

Solid Hits, with solid assessment and evaluation done at the speed in which my people could make those hits is what worked for us. My guys couldn't tell you what a split time was (my Rolex doesn't do those ;)). They did know what kind of accuracy was needed and worked as fast as they could hit those standards in all conditions. Conditions would change the speed, the accuracy requirement stayed the same. Somebody else's way may be better. Some guns are easier to attain those goals, but sometimes have other factors that are a negative. At this point JodyH is coming up with a bunch of stuff that I'll be stealing and is doing a better job of making the point in a few words. Just a different means to an end.

[Gary1911A1]

Every case of a shot to the head I have investigated resulted in immediate incapacitation, even if it didn't result in death. LAPD Metro has had the same results according to Scott Reitz. On the other hand, I had one large mean gang member shot by another gang member in the temple in a crossing shot. He was talking to me from the time I arrived on scene, through initial treatment and while loaded into the ambulance. At the hospital, I saw the X-Ray with a .45ACP FMJ round lodged behind his right eye (entry on left temple). The doctor said he would never be the same, but it didn't appear that he was the brightest light in the room to begin with, so nobody may know. Sometimes having a small brain in a big head helps.....:;).

I have also never seen a immediate stop from a pelvic shot. Just a pissed off guy on the ground if it works. Good way to immobilize a mover (especially with a rifle), but a poor response for a failure to stop.

Had a inmate gangbanger in prison who had a 9MM FMJ in about the same spot. He was blind in his right eye and still had the round in his head. Like some other inmates he had trouble getting through the metal detectors. Never did see an inmate with a 45 in his head, but 9MM seemed to be the choice of gangbangers in Ohio.

[JodyH]

I've had similar discussions multiple times with USBP academy instructors (we usually have 10-15 Agents at our 3-gun matches).
While many of them compete with Glocks and 1911's the majority opinion is the LEM trigger is superior for duty use.
While not a "TLG" package, the V2 LEM has been used successfully in plenty of shootings for the BP, and you don't hear about many negligent shootings by them.
That's probably due more to training than the trigger since the USBP turns out some solid, safe shooters in my experience.

[JohnN]

I've had similar discussions multiple times with USBP academy instructors (we usually have 10-15 Agents at our 3-gun matches).
While many of them compete with Glocks and 1911's the majority opinion is the LEM trigger is superior for duty use.
While not a "TLG" package, the V2 LEM has been used successfully in plenty of shootings for the BP, and you don't hear about many negligent shootings by them.
That's probably due more to training than the trigger since the USBP turns out some solid, safe shooters in my experience.

Do the USBP instructors competing with 1911's and Glocks feel disadvantaged using their duty weapons or because they want to use something other than what they are mandated to use at work?

[JodyH]

Do the USBP instructors competing with 1911's and Glocks feel disadvantaged using their duty weapons or because they want to use something other than what they are mandated to use at work?
The rules of the game put a 12+1 doublestack .40 at a pretty big disadvantage.
You're basically having to go heads up against 19+1 round Glock 17's.

[GJM]

Jody, you have an advanced case of HK syndrome, and as a recovering HK-oholic, I can spot one suffering from it all the way from Colorado today. About the only known cure is to shoot a Glock or M&P with a DCAEK trigger for two weeks, and I think it will snap you right out of it.

[JodyH]

The oldest handgun in my safe is a Glock 17 with a bajillion rounds through it.
:cool:
P2000 LEM is where it's at for me.
Better trigger, better mag release, better slide stop levers and a hammer to ride when I holster up.
:p

He types while wearing a H&K t-shirt and carrying a S&W J-frame on this fine Sunday morning.

[joshs]

About the only known cure is to shoot a Glock or M&P with a DCAEK trigger for two weeks, and I think it will snap you right out of it.

I've tried that twice since I started shooting a P30. I don't see a measurable shooting improvement with a G17 compared to a P30.

[YVK]

I've tried that twice since I started shooting a P30. I don't see a measurable shooting improvement with a G17 compared to a P30.

As Todd had mentioned many times before, it is so damn difficult to compare. I shot G17 a couple of times during last two weeks, still being committed to P30 as a carry and practice gun, and did better on some tasks with Glock, but not others. Considering that for me two weeks of running a gun usually means two range trips, it is painfully insufficient to get in tune with a different gun. Going with another gun for longer than that effectively means switching guns.

So, in the context of original topic, I'll meet you all in the middle:
-Glock's easier to shoot a bit for most people.
-LEM is a better service trigger.
-LEM with GGI reset reduction package is the king of all triggers.
-Alternatively, LEM with GGI reduction package is a waste a ton of money, but I have hard time admitting it.

[GJM]

Josh, Jody, my hat is off to you for being able to shoot the LEM so well. TLG, you guys, and few others are in this small group. Wish I could, too, but it is not the case. Doesn't stop me from being a HK fan boy, and I look for opportunities to carry one. Snowing, below zero -- it is an HK day! I expect to be "bi" for the foreseeable future -- meaning HK plus whatever I shoot better.

I am at the point I need every software and hardware edge to measurably improve my shooting. Right now, I am shooting the Glock 34 with irons sights, better than I have shot any other pistol, and with that sight radius, am seeing the front sight more like I used to a few decades ago.

Josh, not to be talking out of school, but my sources told me you recently bought a CZ?

[JohnN]

In my experience it is easier to get lazy running a LEM trigger than a striker fired system. There is little doubt it is easier to shoot a Glock or M&P faster but I am not convinced the difference in .03-.05 splits are relevant enough in a defensive situation. Personally I can shoot faster splits with the G17 but my fastest recorded FAST time in class was with a P30.

Besides, if we all used the same gun because of a perceived edge in split times what would we talk about?

[JV_]

Josh, not to be talking out of school, but my sources told me you recently bought a CZ?

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2526-joshs-Journal-ISIS-Field-Training-Log&p=101194&viewfull=1#post101194

[JodyH]

Besides, if we all used the same gun because of a perceived edge in split times what would we talk about?
Walther P99, I routinely shot .11 splits on Bill Drills (before I smashed my trigger finger).
Now my finger only works at .21 no matter the trigger, damn scar tissue.

[joshs]

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2526-joshs-Journal-ISIS-Field-Training-Log&p=101194&viewfull=1#post101194

I need to update my journal. The summary is that zed is not my friend.

[Erik]

Snowing, below zero -- it is an HK day!

Why?

[GJM]

The HK's long trigger and big trigger guard are easier with gloves, and the longer trigger is coarser/easier with cold hands and fingers. Is it enough so that I would run out and by an HK, if I had a Glock in cold climates -- no, but it gives me another reason to carry the HK.

I gave up the 1911 below zero (F) many years back, when I realized I didn't have the dexterity to run the thumb safety and short trigger with gloves or very cold hands.

[Erik]

Thanks.

[Dagga Boy]

I've gotten to the point of evaluating what I "run" better, which is not always what I shoot better. If it was only about shooting better, I think I can get the 1911 with the triple chamber compensator into some holster. I think many are so hung up on split times that they lose focus on everything else. I've never seen a split time matter in a shoot house or an actual shooting for that matter (they are usually too fast on the street). If your splits are faster than you can evaluate, then you are "there". Anything faster is to make you feel better. I simply run a HK system better that is probably due to time on the system, and now with a trigger I can do better work with in conjunction with the severe arthritis in my hands. I think I am at the point where my "soft" grip due to the arthritis is holding me back far more than the trigger. If you "run" a Glock better or a 1911, great. BUt this should be an all encompassing evaluation, not just a time on a drill that only reflects a limited set of attributes.

[Spr1]

Langdon made a similar comment on splits at a class a while back. I can't recall the exact words, but it was essentially that what you can do on the range with your feet planted does not bear much relation to what happens when everyone (shooter and targets) are all rapidly moving.

[YVK]

Interesting reading. To me the absolute time differences in all technical aspects are so small that I don't think I am gaining any meaningful decision making time by going with a slower option. I see this trade off as "slower gun with higher margin of safety vs faster gun with smaller margin", which in turn boils down to how big of a safety margin one needs.
Do you find P30 easier on your joints?

Spr1: too bad Ernie didn't mention this in my class, I would have loved to argue this point. I view splits as one of many indirect indicators of gun's user - friendliness. It is not all about trigger speed, but also flip and sight arc, pure recoil, propensity to finger freeze etc. Projecting a deterioration of performance under conditions of a real life stress, I'd certainly prefer a pistol I do better with on a static range, all other aspects of gun selection being equal.

[GJM]

In my training with Robert Vogel and Manny Bragg this year, neither had a preoccupation with shot to shot split times on the same target, except as a diagnostic measurement of your stance's ability to control recoil. Manny went so far to say he never shot a split faster than .24-.26 when he won Limited at the Florida Open. AAR here:

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?3278-Class-Report-Universal-Shooting-Academy&highlight=Manny+Bragg

During my day with Vogel, I never saw him shoot a split faster than .18 on a Bill drill, and most were .20 or slower. Two years ago, I had the Apex FSS trigger in my M&P pistols -- and despite them allowing the fastest splits I can shoot, took them out and replaced them with the DCAEK trigger, which to me feels close to a Glock minus or dot connector.

What Bragg and Vogel were interested in was accuracy first, followed by optimizing your technique to allow you to make that accurate hit as fast as you can. Manny Bragg started each day shooting at two inch dots. Vogel started our day with a five shot group at 15 yards. At AFHS, TLG was all about accuracy, often shooting the two inch circle or one in square at 7 yards and beyond -- but of course with the timer. If you look at the FASTest, TLG has designed it with enormous penalties for shots outside the 3x5 and 8 inch circle.

Now that said, surely we are unable to measure performance against standard, or measure our performance improvement without measuring speed. My P30 LEM pistols are very accurate, and if I look at an accuracy standard without time, they would be my first choice. For me, and others experiences may differ, it is when I try to make that accurate shot at speed, that I prefer both the Glock and M&P DCAEK trigger.

What I find interesting is there is negligible difference in the trigger weight between the M&P, Glock and HK. And, while the initial pull is longer on the HK, on successive shots, using the flip and press method, I don't notice any difference in reset (with the caveat that there is a trap if you let the trigger out too far with the LEM and repeat that long initial press for each shot). The biggest thing I notice, is that the sights are disturbed more shooting the HK than the Glock and M&P, and that means it takes me longer to make an accurate shot. I believe the sights moving more on the HK are purely a function of bore axis and your ability to use your grip for leverage to control recoil. I really hope HK brings out a striker pistol, that allows you to get higher on the pistol, and brings out a choice of a LEM and more conventional striker trigger.

[Kevin B.]

http://www.humankinetics.com/excerpts/excerpts/the-speed-accuracy-trade-off

[Dagga Boy]

"Do you find P30 easier on your joints?"

9mm in general helps a lot. I started shooting a Glock 17 in training because my USP 45F was simply killing me in longer classes and my normal shooting routine. Eventually, I was shooting the G-17 so much, and of course really well, that I just started carrying them. I have spent most of my adult life with a DA gun, and shooting mostly pairs with the DA autos to work the transition. I paid dearly for this. The reality is that I couldn't hold a pistol with Vogel's grip on my best day. My doctor banned me from my grip trainer. Just loading magazines during the weekly training shoots kills me. What I have gained from the P30 (and I never thought I would end up as such a fan of this gun) is that everything seems to work well for me with it. The trigger is "work", but the handling all seems perfect. That is a huge factor as most people who know me or have trained with me know that I am huge on "gun handling" as a major priority as we "handle" them FAR more than we shoot them in actual use, AND I see FAR more catastrophe's in the field caused by handling failures as opposed to marksmanship failures.

As far as sight rise, splits, sight tracking, etc. are going to be a big fat non-factor in how you perform in the field. I have interviewed a lot of folks who have been in shootings right after the event, and then a full de-brief within a week or so. THis combined with being in a couple of shootings myself, and present at several others gives me a unique perspective that is summed up best by Ken Hackathorn-you need to be on auto-pilot during these events. You program that auto-pilot with training. You will revert back to your most relevant training. It is why I am such a huge believer in "hardwiring" your system with a ton of repetitive "good" habits. Part of those habits are use of visually verified shooting, smooth trigger press, good follow through (by biggest issue right now), a solid pre and post shooting set of habits and things you do every time will be the biggest issues "on your day". Let me give an example that is irrelevant in the LEM, Glock, 1911 argument so I can get the point across.

A big issue I identified with our issue SIG Sauer P-220's was failures to de-cock. This was an issue on the range, in training, and post shooting in the field. To address this I began a program where I had my people de-cock every single time they came off target with the support thumb in a two hand grip and the primary thumb when shooting one handed. So, even if we didn't shoot, we depressed the de-cock lever. Every time we came from on target to back to a ready (which we did prior to holstering-never from the target to the holster) we de-cocked. In the shooting I was in with my P-220, After shooting the suspect and then physically going to the ground mounted on him, I went to de-cock my pistol prior to holstering.............and it was already de-cocked. This is what you want. You want your brain doing stuff without you.......as long as its positive. You don't want to be putting spent casings in your pocket, you want to train good solid habits. The results of what is happening on a target during training is simply a reflection of what "right" feels like and what "wrong" is. One of the best thing Larry Vickers does in some classes is to punish wrong immediately. That means every bad shot gets the gun unloaded, five perfect dry presses (which sometimes takes more than 5), re-load and start over. That will pay off in spades in anti-personnel shooting. If you are not interested in anti-personnel shooting, this is all very irrelevant. If your primary goal is winning fights with guns, then you need to focus squarely on fighting skills with guns. For many, the problem comes in that you are training for both being a good technical shooter and competitor, and then carrying a gun for protection. There will be compromise with this and how you weigh that compromise is a task all by itself.

[GJM]

1) Vogel's grip is about leverage -- allowing what ever strength you have to be applied with maximum mechanical advantage by getting your dominant hand as high as possible, and your support hand as far forward as possible. More strength helps, as it does with every shooting grip, but thinking Vogel's grip means strength is flat wrong.

The reason Vogel prefers a Glock to a 1911, and other pistols, is the Glock allows him to get the highest possible hand position, and impart maximum leverage to control recoil.

2) As someone with a 40 per cent tear in my right wrist, I can relate to hand problems. As regards physically pressing the trigger, hardest on my hands is a heavy DA revolver, then a DA Sig/HK, then LEM, then Glock/M&P and easiest is a light, 1911 trigger. I have to limit my DA revolver training, which I do at the beginning of my session, as it physically tires me. (Bill Rogers reports this is true with the DA revolver for most shooters, not just those with injuries.)

Comparing the Glock to the LEM, on a high round count day, the LEM is physically more taxing on my hand/wrist than a Glock, and that is a function of the length of travel as much as weight of the trigger.