Winchester 1897

[Wyoming Shooter]

To celebrate Independence Day 2024, I bought this Winchester 1897. It seems to function just fine, although I haven't fired it. John Browning's genius is confirmed, again. A couple questions:

1. Any reason not to cut the barrel to 20"?

2. Are standard 2.75" loads okay in this gun?

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[Borderland]

I have one that my dad hunted with when I was a kid. That was back in the 60's. He used 2.75" shells. I've not shot it since I became it's owner in 1990. It's my understanding that the chamber length was increased around 1930 but the barrels were marked. Mine was made around 1917 so it has chambers made for 2.75" roll crimped shells. It shouldn't matter if you use 2.75" star crimp shells. Never slowed my dad down and he hunted with it for many years.

[fatdog]

Doesn't look like some pristine model so I would cut it down in a heartbeat, both of mine were cut to 22" for CAS use.

I ran nothing but 2.75 star crimp shells without difficulty in mine. One of mine was made circa 1920's.

[Borderland]

Looks like the OP's shotgun was built 1916-1917 from Win. records. No reason not to cut it.

[Oldherkpilot]

Not to dispute Borderland, but you might have a smith check the chamber to be sure. When I was in college, I was remarking how my Model 12 seemed to kick more than it ought to. One of the shooting coaches suggested that it might have 2 9\6" chambers. The tricky part is that 2 3\4" shell chamber nicely but the crimp can't unfold properly so the pressure goes way up. He took that shotgun home and reamed the chamber and solved my problem. That shotgun was built in the 30's.

[Wyoming Shooter]

Thanks for the helpful Intel. I will most definitely investigate the chamber before firing. Channeling my inner "Wild Bunch": https://www.imfdb.org/wiki/The_Wild_Bunch!

[Malamute]

Its a simple operation to open up the chamber/forcing cone for modern ammo crimps. More modern shells as mentioned open differently than older shells. I did my model 12 and old Baker sxs. I believe I also had the forcing cones lengthened as was the practice in the 90s when dad was shooting a lot, it was supposed to make them softer shooting and improve patterns. I havent heard any more up to date info if thats still done regularly or not. Cutting the butt to a slight reverse angle at the toe was also supposed to improve muzzle rise. I had them done to about 1/8-1/4" under square (forward of the square) off the comb line

[Rick R]

“Cut it” isn’t very descriptive of what you intend to do. The question is are you going to “improve” it?
If you intend to add a padded bead and/or chokes I’d say go for it. Vang recently had pix of an 1897 they’d refurbished and it’s awesome.

97’s are neat because they don’t have disconnectors and you can lay a LOT of hate down in short time. The scenes in The Wind and The Lion with the 1897 were great for German soldier kill’n scenes.

[Malamute]

Its a simple operation to open up the chamber/forcing cone for modern ammo crimps. More modern shells as mentioned open differently than older shells. I did my model 12 and old Baker sxs. I believe I also had the forcing cones lengthened as was the practice in the 90s when dad was shooting a lot, it was supposed to make them softer shooting and improve patterns. I havent heard any more up to date info if thats still done regularly or not. Cutting the butt to a slight reverse angle at the toe was also supposed to improve muzzle rise. I had them done to about 1/8-1/4" under square (forward of the square) off the comb line

[Borderland]

Word is they kick like a mule in the original chamber length. I was talking to my sister awhile back and she said she shot my dads M97.... once.

I don't remember that it was that brutal but I suppose I could find out if I wanted to.

[Malamute]

Word is they kick like a mule in the original chamber length. I was talking to my sister awhile back and she said she shot my dads M97.... once.

I don't remember that it was that brutal but I suppose I could find out if I wanted to.

Part of the recoil effect is the way they made stocks, the toe being long had the effect of making the muzzle rise when fired, smacking one in the cheek. Thats what the under squared butt plate/pad angle mentioned above is about. The recoil effect is more strait line back instead of up into the cheek.


US stock design was pretty miserable for a long time, the brits had better stock understanding than the US for quite a long time. While we were muddling along with horrible crescent butts, way too much drop, and whacked toe angle, they were miles ahead with whats now called shotgun butts clear back to flintlock rifle days. I utterly reject the notion that its only how one holds a crescent butt as to how well they feel and shoot, they suck, and its good riddance that they are gone for the most part other than nostalgia reasons.

[LHS]

Part of the recoil effect is the way they made stocks, the toe being long had the effect of making the muzzle rise when fired, smacking one in the cheek. Thats what the under squared butt plate/pad angle mentioned above is about. The recoil effect is more strait line back instead of up into the cheek.


US stock design was pretty miserable for a long time, the brits had better stock understanding than the US for quite a long time. While we were muddling along with horrible crescent butts, way too much drop, and whacked toe angle, they were miles ahead with whats now called shotgun butts clear back to flintlock rifle days. I utterly reject the notion that its only how one holds a crescent butt as to how well they feel and shoot, they suck, and its good riddance that they are gone for the most part other than nostalgia reasons.

I have long wondered just why crescent butts were ever a thing.

[Malamute]

I have long wondered just why crescent butts were ever a thing.

Many will say its for offhand shooting, with the longer barrels, though I think its overdone and ended up being habit, fashion or whatever one wishes to call it long past its possible usefulness. Witness the fact that Winchester made screwdriver slots in magazine caps for 40-some or 50 years after they stopped making threaded magazine caps. Another long holdover was the so-called saddle ring, originally called a sling ring. I think it was Winchester trying to get military sales by copying the military sling rings and still putting them on guns decades after any military use of them. Note that popular lore tells of a leather string being used through the ring and the gun hung off the saddle horn, though so far Ive never seen a contemporary frontier period image or written example of them being so used. The military, back to flintlock days used a wide leather strap over the soldiers shoulder with a heavy snap that attached to the ring on the carbine so it stayed attached to the soldier when riding or in a fast dismount. Today they would call that a single point sling.

[Wyoming Shooter]

I've gone a wee bit down the 1897 rabbit hole. Winchester produced both "riot" and "trench" versions. The much counterfeited "trench" version had a heat shield which incorporated a bayonet mount and sling swivel. The "riot" version had a plain 20" barrel and notably did not typically have front and rear sling swivels. I find that very curious. My plan is to make this gun look like the "riot" version. This is a cool old gun.

[fatdog]

FWIW, best work I ever had done on one was by Tom at Dusty Bunch out in Arizona (https://www.dustybunch.com/). AKA Old West Gun Repair LLC. The one he did for me was the only one I never broke in CAS. He does some parts replacements but I don't know which one, I never ventured far to the internals of that thing. Tom is the only gunsmith I ever found who truly understood that platform.

[okie john]

It seems to function just fine, although I haven't fired it. John Browning's genius is confirmed, again.

You may question Mr. Browning's genius if your thumb is wrapped around the stock when you rack the action.

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If your thumb is too high on the stock, say as it creeps forward in recoil, then the bottom of the bolt can lay your thumb wide open.

On the bright side, a decent Urgent Care doc should be able to close the wound with 8-10 sutures and you'll probably only do it once.


Okie John

[Joe in PNG]

If you haven't seen it, Gun Jesus and our own LHS (Matt) run an original Trench Gun:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jksldX33HAY&t=232s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0m-3eP38JE

[Borderland]

I've gone a wee bit down the 1897 rabbit hole. Winchester produced both "riot" and "trench" versions. The much counterfeited "trench" version had a heat shield which incorporated a bayonet mount and sling swivel. The "riot" version had a plain 20" barrel and notably did not typically have front and rear sling swivels. I find that very curious. My plan is to make this gun look like the "riot" version. This is a cool old gun.

Mine has 30'' full and 20'' cyl barrels. Likely ordered from the factory like that as the barrels and the receiver have the same SN. I've read, don't know, that people used to order the 20'' barrels to use slugs for deer. My dad purchased it from a neighbor around 1955. My impression is the riot guns were stamped with the dept. that purchased them. They shoot rioters, don't they?

I had a smith go through mine, clean it up and give it a good bill of health. The lower barrel is the long one.



https://i.ibb.co/17Kn9fj/Win97-E635179.jpg (https://ibb.co/BcjPgVF)

[Malamute]

Mine has 30'' full and 20'' cyl barrels. Likely ordered from the factory like that as the barrels and the receiver have the same SN. I've read, don't know, that people used to order the 20'' barrels to use slugs for deer. My dad purchased it from a neighbor around 1955. My impression is the riot guns were stamped with the dept. that purchased them. They shoot rioters, don't they?

I had a smith go through mine, clean it up and give it a good bill of health. The lower barrel is the long one.



https://i.ibb.co/17Kn9fj/Win97-E635179.jpg (https://ibb.co/BcjPgVF)

I had a chance to buy a set like that in the 90s for around $300. I foolishly passed, as I did on the clean trapdoor rifle for similar money.

[Borderland]

I had a chance to buy a set like that in the 90s for around $300. I foolishly passed, as I did on the clean trapdoor rifle for similar money.

I'll sell this one in time and somebody is for sure going to want it. It won't be 300 bucks. ;)

The recoil pad obviously isn't original but you can buy a butt plate .The stock hasn't been cut Ships were wood, men were steel in 1917.

[LHS]

If you haven't seen it, Gun Jesus and our own LHS (Matt) run an original Trench Gun:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jksldX33HAY&t=232s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0m-3eP38JE

That was such a fun day. And even though I think slamfire is pretty well useless, it's still fun to play with it.

[SteveThePirate]

This thread reminds me that I should send out my '97 mismatched takedown that someone cut to 18" or so out to get brought up to spec.

Matt, since DB and BrYan were able to bring 32 back, how about a push to make modern 16ga defensive ammo?

[gato naranja]

If your thumb is too high on the stock, say as it creeps forward in recoil, then the bottom of the bolt can lay your thumb wide open.

That was one reason given why some family Model 97s seemed to be standing in perpetual exile while venerable Model 12s were still being enthusiastically used.

[RevolverRob]

You may question Mr. Browning's genius if your thumb is wrapped around the stock when you rack the action.

120691

If your thumb is too high on the stock, say as it creeps forward in recoil, then the bottom of the bolt can lay your thumb wide open.

On the bright side, a decent Urgent Care doc should be able to close the wound with 8-10 sutures and you'll probably only do it once.


Okie John

It never occurred to me that this makes the 1897 receiver about half the length of a M12 or 870...