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BLR
11-27-2012, 05:53 PM
First a little background:

I've wanted to develop a better, at least what I consider "better," finish for a while.

Without dipping too far into corrosion, tribology and aesthetics, I'll say I'm a fan of composite electroless nickel. However, current EN technology (at least as it's applied to the firearms industry) has some pit falls. First, some coatings are too slippery (too high PTFE content). Some are "yellowish" in color (cadmium added to the bath). Some are to "nickely" in color (too much brightener). However, EN is great for wear and corrosion resistance. And it doesn't suffer the issues of hydrogen embrittlement and electrochemical throw that hard chrome does. To remedy this, I started playing around with a four component system. That being, nickel, phosphorus, PTFE, and tungsten. I added tungsten for a few reasons, one of which is hardness and another color.

So far, this has been a 3 year development process (albeit, part time). I borrowed heavily from some other industries in terms of final composition, but man, no one wants to share their plating bath compositions. And I didn't find any suitable off the shelf baths that could be modified to suit. The mot technically challenging bit? The PTFE loading. Surface energy is a wonderfully rich field of study. :cool:

Now some teaser pics:

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/1911s/EN1.jpg

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/1911s/EN2.jpg

The frame you see is that abomination of a 1911 that SA made in Brazil. Again, you can assign whatever meaning you like to that statement.

WDW
11-27-2012, 06:16 PM
Very cool! Will you be offering this new finish to others?

CCT125US
11-27-2012, 06:21 PM
I really think you need a lab assistant. I will work for ammo and 100K per year, PM me if interested;)

BLR
11-27-2012, 06:23 PM
Very cool! Will you be offering this new finish to others?

You are only seeing 1/3 of the coating system being developed.

But yes, that is the hope.

WDW
11-27-2012, 06:55 PM
And perhaps forum members who gave you the motivation you needed to succeed get first dibs?

BLR
11-27-2012, 07:23 PM
And perhaps forum members who gave you the motivation you needed to succeed get first dibs?

I likely could be talked into some beta testers.

Sparks2112
11-27-2012, 07:37 PM
I likely could be talked into some beta testers.

I'm local, and I've got stuff to coat. :)

WDW
11-27-2012, 08:06 PM
I likely could be talked into some beta testers.

Well I think this is awesome and I'll gladly send you a slide or two to "test". I love electroless nickel, both for looks & function.

JAD
11-27-2012, 08:54 PM
Bill, have you thought of heat treating the nickel? There are pitfalls, but if you want the coating W.D. hard, it can produce remarkable results.

Savage Hands
11-27-2012, 10:09 PM
Hmm, how will it compare to the Nickel Boron or DLC type finishes?

Haraise
11-28-2012, 12:39 AM
As someone currently having a gun nitrocarbed and then NP3+ coated after, I'm interested.

BLR
11-28-2012, 06:57 AM
Bill, have you thought of heat treating the nickel? There are pitfalls, but if you want the coating W.D. hard, it can produce remarkable results.

True, it can take a coating from 50ish on the Rockwell C scale to over 70 for a high phos EN. However, it also causes the coating to shrink, resulting in micro-cracks. We threw in the tungsten to up the hardness w/o having to resort to a high temp stage.

Nickel phosphorus and nickel born are essentially the same thing. Nickel boron is typically a little harder, but less corrosion resistant. We evaluated the boron stuff early on, and didn't think it did as well with PTFE either.

DLC is a whole 'nother story. Let's just say, I'm not a fan.

LittleLebowski
11-28-2012, 08:56 AM
I likely could be talked into some beta testers.

Let me know :D

JV_
11-28-2012, 08:56 AM
Let me know :D

He probably wants people that actually make it to the range and shoot :p

LittleLebowski
11-28-2012, 09:00 AM
He probably wants people that actually make it to the range and shoot :p

Sunday :D

orionz06
11-28-2012, 09:53 AM
I likely could be talked into some beta testers.

Can you coat my Gadget to match?

BLR
11-28-2012, 10:35 AM
Can you coat my Gadget to match?

I don't know. What's a gadget? Or more relevantly, what's it made out of?

WDW
11-28-2012, 11:09 AM
I don't know. What's a gadget? Or more relevantly, what's it made out of?

The gadget is a mythical apparatus forged by TLG used to torment PF members for the last 1 1/2 years or so.

Savage Hands
11-28-2012, 02:17 PM
Can you coat my Gadget to match?


Uh... What? :eek:

ToddG
11-28-2012, 02:28 PM
Please don't derail the thread with talk about the Gadget.

As for the finish, Bill, when do you think you'd be ready to move into beta?

BLR
11-28-2012, 03:24 PM
Please don't derail the thread with talk about the Gadget.

As for the finish, Bill, when do you think you'd be ready to move into beta?

I'd take carbon steel 1911s beginning of the year. Will be able to do Al, Ti, SS mid next year. Those require some effort to depassivate and prevent from repassivating and thus compromising adhesion.

The 1911 stipulation is because I don't want to learn how to assemble/disassemble anything else.

Sparks2112
11-28-2012, 03:57 PM
I'd take carbon steel 1911s beginning of the year. Will be able to do Al, Ti, SS mid next year. Those require some effort to depassivate and prevent from repassivating and thus compromising adhesion.

The 1911 stipulation is because I don't want to learn how to assemble/disassemble anything else.

If I drive the 40 minutes north to dayton and disassemble my own crap, would you be willing to budge off that 1911 stipulation? Just for me though, since I'm a beautiful unique snow flake and all.

Dave Berryhill
11-28-2012, 10:19 PM
http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/1911s/EN2.jpg

The frame you see is that abomination of a 1911 that SA made in Brazil.....

I'm holding that abomination in my hands as we speak. Bill put it though some salt spray corrosion testing before he sent it to me to look at. There is only one area of rust on the entire frame (the bottom of the recoil spring dust cover) and I'm guessing that it's because the salt water pooled there. I'm impressed and need to get one of my own pistols plated by him for further testing.

I'm thinking that his nickel plating over stainless steel will be a very corrosion resistant pistol.

JAD
11-28-2012, 11:14 PM
True, it can take a coating from 50ish on the Rockwell C scale to over 70 for a high phos EN. However, it also causes the coating to shrink, resulting in micro-cracks. We threw in the tungsten to up the hardness w/o having to resort to a high temp stage.
.
That micro cracking can be brought from canyon-to-substrate to surface-ripple levels with diligence (both chemically and process). The surface ripples make it abrasive but a top coat -- precious metal in an electrical contact, say -- takes care of that. I'm not sure what PTFE would do -- it might cluster up in the valleys where you want it to ride the peaks.

BLR
11-29-2012, 11:17 AM
That micro cracking can be brought from canyon-to-substrate to surface-ripple levels with diligence (both chemically and process). The surface ripples make it abrasive but a top coat -- precious metal in an electrical contact, say -- takes care of that. I'm not sure what PTFE would do -- it might cluster up in the valleys where you want it to ride the peaks.

Can you say that again? I'm not following.

I'm saying heat treating (at say 300F or so) will allow the P to diffuse in the coating to create a "precipitation" hardened coating with a hardness similar to that of hard chrome. That diffusion and clustering causes a densification of the coating, which leads to microcracking.

BLR
12-02-2012, 12:31 PM
If I drive the 40 minutes north to dayton and disassemble my own crap, would you be willing to budge off that 1911 stipulation? Just for me though, since I'm a beautiful unique snow flake and all.

HA! I have a farm in Wilmington. Stop by there, we are putting up a new barn. If it's carbon steel, I'll do it. Stainless, titanium and aluminum will be added in the spring.

Sparks2112
12-02-2012, 12:51 PM
HA! I have a farm in Wilmington. Stop by there, we are putting up a new barn. If it's carbon steel, I'll do it. Stainless, titanium and aluminum will be added in the spring.

Hey if you need some help with the barn let me know, I'm absolutely worthless except for carrying heavy crap but I'm more than willing. ;)

I think I had read somewhere that stainless steel when melonited loses its stainless properties. Any truth to that?

BLR
12-02-2012, 02:34 PM
Hey if you need some help with the barn let me know, I'm absolutely worthless except for carrying heavy crap but I'm more than willing. ;)

I think I had read somewhere that stainless steel when melonited loses its stainless properties. Any truth to that?

Not from a practical perspective. Melonited stainless is fairly corrosion resistant.

From a chemical perspective, it's a different animal after it's Melonited.

Sparks2112
12-02-2012, 03:15 PM
Not from a practical perspective. Melonited stainless is fairly corrosion resistant.

From a chemical perspective, it's a different animal after it's Melonited.

I'll see what I have laying around that would work out. I think my dad has a full rail non trp operator that might fit the bill.

BLR
01-06-2013, 11:56 AM
http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/1911s/Liberty-20130106-02384_zps88f3f28d.jpg

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/1911s/Liberty-20130105-02355_zps90583154.jpg

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/1911s/Liberty-20130106-02383_zpsc0b777bc.jpg

The slides and BCG seen above will be shipped to their respective owners this week.

Anyone interested in a "beta test" is welcome now. Email me at bill(dot)riehl(at)blackfireeng(dot)com for shipping instructions (I do have a FFL). I prefer BCGs or all steel 1911s. I will coat a fully detail stripped BCG for $50 and a fully detail stripped all steel pistol (not the barrel) for $125 for those active on this forum or active duty/reserve/LEO. If you have something else you'd like done and it's carbon steel, I'll try. If not, I can send a 4140 steel coupon to you for $20 shipped to see if you like it. Again, this is a bit different than the traditional firearms EN. It does have a decent amount of PTFE in it, but also tungsten for hardness and color. The finish will carry a lifetime warranty against peeling/chipping/blistering/etc.

I also have a non-PTFE EN-Tungsten system w/ a pretreatment for Cerakote. Extremely corrosion resistant.

Aluminum and stainless will be options Feb 15 (waiting on the salt spray results).

Sparks - email me and I'll give you directions to the farm/hunting ground! You'll love it. Might even work in a 'yote hunt!

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/1911s/Liberty-20130104-02328_zpsedece4fe.jpg

Savage Hands
01-06-2013, 09:49 PM
Hopefully someone else will try a Glock slide first.

Mjolnir
01-09-2013, 10:08 PM
True, it can take a coating from 50ish on the Rockwell C scale to over 70 for a high phos EN. However, it also causes the coating to shrink, resulting in micro-cracks. We threw in the tungsten to up the hardness w/o having to resort to a high temp stage.

Nickel phosphorus and nickel born are essentially the same thing. Nickel boron is typically a little harder, but less corrosion resistant. We evaluated the boron stuff early on, and didn't think it did as well with PTFE either.

DLC is a whole 'nother story. Let's just say, I'm not a fan.

Care to share why you're not a fan of W DLC?

BLR
01-10-2013, 07:13 AM
Diamond like carbon is a wonderfully wear resistant finish. It is also a very thin, very brittle finish. It does not offer the best corrosion resistance. And most importantly to me, it practically all but prevents future work done to the gun.

However, if you plan on no further work, like the color, keep the gun in a non corrosive environment, and are horrified by holster wear (99% of the 1911 crowd is) - then this is a great finish.

Every coating is a compromise. Everythin is a compromise. Picking the right gun/coating/airplane/Le Mans car is all about picking the best compromise.

Serpico1985
01-11-2013, 12:30 AM
Bill,

Are there any issues with tolerances on bolts and bolt carrier groups? Would you coat just a bolt and cam pin? I have spare bolts and cam pins I'd like to get coated, just wondering about your feelings on this.

Thanks for any info sir.

BLR
01-11-2013, 08:25 AM
Sure.

On clearances, if you have something that is fit really tight, a thinner coating can be used easily. Our bath plates out at 0.00025" per hour. So, we can easily adjust the coating thickness.

But on MilSpec bolts and carriers, the clearances are very generous.

NickA
01-11-2013, 10:17 AM
Bill - could you do a revolver? I've got a Colt Cobra that needs refinishing.

BLR
01-11-2013, 11:07 AM
Bill - could you do a revolver? I've got a Colt Cobra that needs refinishing.

If it's totally stripped, sure. I just don't want to spend a lot of time pulling apart guns for the price here.

BLR
01-11-2013, 11:21 AM
Hopefully someone else will try a Glock slide first.

I will be coating my G20 soon.

NickA
01-11-2013, 11:29 AM
If it's totally stripped, sure. I just don't want to spend a lot of time pulling apart guns for the price here.

Great, I'll stay tuned for when you get up and running on aluminum.

Savage Hands
01-11-2013, 12:40 PM
I will be coating my G20 soon.


:cool:

Mjolnir
01-11-2013, 03:56 PM
Diamond like carbon is a wonderfully wear resistant finish. It is also a very thin, very brittle finish. It does not offer the best corrosion resistance. And most importantly to me, it practically all but prevents future work done to the gun.

However, if you plan on no further work, like the color, keep the gun in a non corrosive environment, and are horrified by holster wear (99% of the 1911 crowd is) - then this is a great finish.

Every coating is a compromise. Everythin is a compromise. Picking the right gun/coating/airplane/Le Mans car is all about picking the best compromise.

The thickness poses no issue and most W DLC have electroless Ni underneath so corrosion isn't an issue. The Sig Mk25 is such a critter. PVD coatings can be removed, too. I had TiAlN removed from a Cromoly 1911 and replaced with amorphous W DLC and its wearing especially well.

I'm interested in what you are offering however and look forward to your results.

Dave Berryhill
01-11-2013, 06:24 PM
I was on NIC/Cerakote's website the other day and saw their wear test results:
http://www.cerakoteguncoatings.com/resources/files/testing/Abrasion.pdf

The Ionbond coating was the worst performer in this wear test compared to Cerakote, Gunkote, Duracoat, bluing and a few others. I was pretty surprised because Ionbond is supposed to be so durable. I even talked to one of the Cerakote reps and they stand behind their test. I'm curious to know what Ionbond has to say about these test results.

Mjolnir
01-11-2013, 07:19 PM
Interesting.

They don't say WHAT IonBond coating, though...

ADKilla
01-11-2013, 09:20 PM
I was on NIC/Cerakote's website the other day and saw their wear test results:
http://www.cerakoteguncoatings.com/resources/files/testing/Abrasion.pdf

The Ionbond coating was the worst performer in this wear test compared to Cerakote, Gunkote, Duracoat, bluing and a few others. I was pretty surprised because Ionbond is supposed to be so durable. I even talked to one of the Cerakote reps and they stand behind their test. I'm curious to know what Ionbond has to say about these test results.

Me too. The 1911 you built for me with the IonBond is holding up far better than another 1911 coated with GunKote. I've sold the Commander that I had Cerakoted, but it seemed to hold up well for the first few hundred rounds.

JAD
01-12-2013, 07:00 AM
Mods, or OP, please move if this diverges too much from the intent of the thread, but it seems useful to discuss scope.

What do y'all want the finish of a firearm to do, ideally?

On my steel guns, I simply want the finish to prevent corrosion. I want to be able to toss the gun in a wet leather holster in the trunk of my car after a rainy August thunder ranch class, and not have a single component of the pistol rust detectably. I want to be able to stick the gun in my running holster and soak it with sweat, then holster it for street carry without feeling like it needs to be detail stripped.

From what I've read, GLOCK seems to accomplish this out of the box. That's a compelling reason to buy a G19, right there.

On my preferred aluminum guns, I also want the finish to protect the base material of the frame from dimensional change through wear. Hard anodizing seems to do an ok job of that, but I'd like something better, or something additional.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Dave Berryhill
01-12-2013, 10:26 AM
Interesting.

They don't say WHAT IonBond coating, though...

Yes, it's difficult to accept the test results without knowing more. The also tested "bluing" and "black oxide" separately. Black oxide IS bluing, at least it's the most common type used (AKA hot tank bluing and caustic bluing) by most firearms manufacturers. There are other forms of bluing, such as slow rust bluing and carbonia bluing, so some other form was tested.

I'm skeptical without seeing all the details.

Force Majeure
01-12-2013, 10:49 PM
I was on NIC/Cerakote's website the other day and saw their wear test results:
http://www.cerakoteguncoatings.com/resources/files/testing/Abrasion.pdf

The Ionbond coating was the worst performer in this wear test compared to Cerakote, Gunkote, Duracoat, bluing and a few others. I was pretty surprised because Ionbond is supposed to be so durable. I even talked to one of the Cerakote reps and they stand behind their test. I'm curious to know what Ionbond has to say about these test results.

Ionbond less durable than bluing? Somebody royally pooched that coating job. That is not remotely typical.

BLR
01-13-2013, 07:12 AM
Interesting.

They don't say WHAT IonBond coating, though...

Almost everything I've seen from them is diamond like carbon. They offer both services (deposition of DLC) as well as equipment/process IP.

DLC, for the right application, is a great coating. It excels at minimizing holster wear. It lowers the CoF for most base metals. When done via some CVD processes, is not line of sight (meaning it will coat firing pin channels, extractor channels, and so on). Typically, though, CVD is not used for firearms and other heat treated parts because the deposition temperature is often higher than FNC. Some get as high as 1000C-1200C.

Really, like I said above, everything is a compromise. The key to success is picking the right compromise for the intended application. Appearance is part of that compromise. If you like the looks of hard chrome, you can have a wonderfully tough finish with good (not great, and remember, HC suffers from electrochemical throw, meaning poor deposition in firing pin channels, and so on) corrosion resistance. If you want the ultimate in corrosion resistance, EN is great. It wears almost as well (in the majority of it's incarnations) as HC, is far superior in corrosion resistance, and is often alloyed with PTFE or BN or some similar wear/friction additive. FCN can be a good finish as well, as long as it's limitations are kept in mind - they tend to induce quite a bit of surface stress, require conversion temperatures, and so on. But the result is a nice hard finish that is appealing to the eye for the tactical guys. Cerakote/BlackT/etc are some of my favorite, mostly because they are great barrier coatings, offer some lubricity, are easily re-done, and are inexpensive. They work their best over a more rugged coating, like a PTFE free EN-W coating. Which happens to be my personal favorite system. You get superior corrosion resistance, plus it's black and that is necessary for tacticalness. ;)

As for removing coatings - HC and EN can be chemically stripped at minimal cost. FCN is a permanent thing and is more of a "treatment" than a "coating." The DLC, BC, and the rest cannot be chemically removed (without serious attack of the underlying metal), and require abrasive removal. You simply cannot sand blast everything off effectively. After all, you cant blast the extractor channel in a 1911 very effectively. You can make it look right on the outside, but...

BLR
01-16-2013, 06:54 PM
http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/1911s/Liberty-20130116-02595_zps960fa847.jpg

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/1911s/Liberty-20130116-02594_zps7a625e2f.jpg