Windham Weaponry AR??

[David Armstrong]

I am having a bit of a moral quandary. My daughter and son-in-law really need a new big-screen TV for Christmas. However, I want a new AR for Christmas. Anticipating a favorable outcome for me from this problem, I am considering a Windham Weaponry SRC (danged kids watch too much TV anyway:D). Also, the rifle I looked at had the Diamondhead front and rear sights on it. Seemed interesting and much easier on my aging eyes than the traditional AR version.

So, any comments, insight, experience, good or bad?

[LittleLebowski]

What's the price? I believe this company is Bushmaster under a new name. Is the price that much better than Daniel Defense, Colt, S&W, or Bravo Company?

[David Armstrong]

Price will vary depending on just how much effort I want to put into it. But with the Diamondhead sights figure around the $900 range give or take a $100.

[mizer67]

Price will vary depending on just how much effort I want to put into it. But with the Diamondhead sights figure around the $900 range give or take a $100.

Bushmaster, under a new name is correct.

For another $150 you could get a Colt or for $200 a BCM, should be an easy choice.

[WDW]

Think long & hard. You can pick up new Colt 6720 & 6920's for under $1k & they are far superior in terms of quality & QC. Buds had the S&W M&P15OR on sale a few weeks ago for $679. People always settle for less, but deals are out there.

[Corvus]

As TV screens have grown larger the general public has become more liberal....I say buy the rifle and then worry about a TV.

AIM Surplus also sent out an email today with a good price on a Spike's AR.

[Alaskapopo]

Bushmaster, under a new name is correct.

For another $150 you could get a Colt or for $200 a BCM, should be an easy choice.

Is this litteraly or figuratively. I thought Bushmaster was still in buisness. Not that I am a fan.
Pat

[Kyle Reese]

Is this litteraly or figuratively. I thought Bushmaster was still in buisness. Not that I am a fan.
Pat

They changed their name. Same crap-tastic garbage. I'd pass. Too many solid choices in the world of AR's these days to buy something of lesser quality. Colt, DD, BCM, Noveske, would all be better choices.

Just my 2 kopeks.

[S Jenks]

Bushmaster was sold to Freedom Group International (part of Cerberus) a while back. Bushmaster's former owner and founder, Richard Dyke, was bound by contract not to start a competing company for five years after the sale. Within the last few years, FGI moved the plant from Windham, Maine to upstate NY. With the original Bushmaster employees now jobless and the five year period over, Dyke created Windham Weaponry in his original Bushmaster factory, hiring back many of the old employees.

As far as any actual changes to the production process/QC, I have no idea.

[Odin Bravo One]

As always...........my disclaimer.......just my opinion, and it is worth exactly what you paid for it. This one is pretty biased.

First:

Not sure I really understand the "need a new big screen TV". As I am standing at the crossroads of consolidating two well established households into one in the very near future, I am counting 6 HD flat screen TV's. One 60", one 52", one 40", and three 32". Hey, 6 TV's, and there are 9 rooms in my house. Perfect. But..........Of all of those televisions, we will actually only "need" NONE of them. I compromised with the other head of household, and decided we could keep one for child entertainment (teenager who loves Call of Duty, and I will admit that I take a little pleasure myself teaching him tactical decision making via violent video games) and education purposes. (I hear Baby Einstein is the equivalent of Crack for newly escaped inmates).

But that's just me. I get it, it is 2012, so I can see why most families would have a television.



In all seriousness, and actually on topic.........

What is the intended use of the rifle? I ask, because it could be relevant, and justification for purchasing a Windham if that is what you have your heart set on.

However, if any of your requirements/desires are:

- Dimensions of critical tolerances within established industry specifications
- Long service life/ Durability
- Reliability
- Quality materials and quality assembly of components
- Good quality control/quality assurance
- Good customer service/warranty service

Go buy just about ANY OTHER rifle in the world.

Having never heard the name Windham, and seeing Fred M, and others mention it was a Bushmaster by another name, (which is widely known among folks who see lots and lots of AR's, for producing bottom of the barrel quality rifles), I needed to take a look at their site and see how Windham was different than Bushmaster.

Analogy time:

I could pick up a giant turd off of my back lawn, and take it into the house, wash it off in the sink, pat it dry gently, cover it completely in parsley, sage, rosemary, and thyme....... (while whistling Simon and Garfunkel)...........then put it in a southwestern themed flower pot, add some potting soil to hold it upright, place the pot on my window sill, and tell people it is an extremely rare, and exotic "Taos Cactus".

But changing the name, and making changes to the appearance, and packaging it differently cannot change the fact that underneath the fluff, and my attempts to cover the smell, what I have is still the same piece of shit that was in my yard.

I spent a good deal of time looking and reading, and learning about Windham and their products. But I only needed about 5 minutes to be 100% sure that Windham Weaponry could have just as easily been named "Taos Cactus".

Issues/Concerns noted in those first 5 minutes: (or "why I am convinced WW is synonymous with Taos Cactus")

1) Rifles are chambered in .223 Rem/5.56 NATO. Which is it? .223 Rem or 5.56 NATO? There is a difference. Yes, it matters. Bushmaster never figured that out. Apparently WW hasn't learned that yet either. Though I am not sure why not, since, while reading about the "team", just about everyone in the company has years and years as a former Bushmaster employee. Perhaps WW will bid for the next DoD contract, and try to convince the US Army that .223/5.56 are the same, and it doesn't matter. (again) Maybe they can convince them this time? "Yeah, the barrels are 5.56mm. We stamped it on the side of the barrel, just like in the spec!" (Can't just stamp the barrel, you have to ream the chamber to the proper dimensions too morons).

Epic failure.

2) The home page has a link to the press release announcing WW's partnership with Patriot Ordnance Factory (POF). The only AR manufacturer that I would have said is a bigger POS than Bushmaster. Perfect.....they are going to combine their superpower of suck, and genetically engineer a bigger POS.

3) Warranty. I was baffled. Seriously. Take a look. They have built in, ready made justifications to blame anything but them for a rifle that breaks, sucks, or just doesn't work.

They bait you in, leading you to believe they have a great warranty. From their warranty page................

"Windham Weaponry, Inc. (WW) will warranty all firearms manufactured by WW against any and all manufacturers defects in material and workmanship which affect reasonable operation for the lifetime of the firearm to the purchaser. This warranty is transferrable from the original purchaser to a subsequent buyer.

Sounds good. I like that, and it makes a good selling point if I were to decide to sell it eventually.

BUT............read a little further down............

"The following are specifically excluded from coverage under this warranty and will cause said warranty to become null and void:

Damage or malfunction resulting from accident, negligence, misuse or unauthorized repair or alteration; barrel obstruction; use of ammunition other than NATO and/or SAAMI specification new production ammunition; use of any hand loaded, reloaded, imported or factory re-manufactured ammunition; failure to provide reasonable and necessary maintenance as described in the Operators Manual accompanying the firearm; rust or corrosion; use of replacement parts other than parts authorized by WWI for use in WWI firearms; any unauthorized repair or any alteration, including of a cosmetic nature, performed on the firearm by an individual, organization, company or entity other than WWI; unreasonable or excessive use of the firearm."

So if you go out and grab a bunch of LC headstamped M855 green tip, and your gun breaks or doesn't work........they don't have to cover it under warranty. The green tip that is sold on the civilian market was not to NATO spec......that is why it was sold as surplus. No Q3131. No Aussie. No Brit. No Danish. No German. Wait, some of those countries actually export their NATO spec ammo as a source of revenue. It is NATO spec. But it is imported. Reload to keep costs down but volume of shooting up? Warranty null and void.

Unauthorized repair or alteration, including of a cosmetic nature, performed by anyone other than WW......................???? I actually "LOL'd" when I read that. I think it is the first time in my adult life I had a reaction where the acronym "LOL" was appropriate to describe what I did. The ridiculous meter just pegged. Asinine. Browse their Operator Manual....the BCG shown in their pictures has probably the very best key staking job I have ever seen on a Bushmaster. And it still sucks. Bad. Fortunately for the new WW rifle owner, they can rest assured that they are a serious player in the quality rifle game because.......

" This manual is based upon the
U.S. Gov’t. Issue Manual for M16
A2 Rifles, and will be included with
all semi-automac Windham
Weaponry Firearms.

That makes me feel sooooo much better. Like watching one of those "Based on a true story" movies. I always walk out convinced it was a factual, and historically correct "Docudrama", and accurate representation of the truth. Or not so much. And while one would think that the single largest organization in the world using an AR pattern rifle would be able to produce an operator/user manual, time has educated as that we would be wrong. The Govt. user manual sucks. Glad they based their POS on someone else's. But at least the Govt manual is consistent and does not contradict itself halfway through.

I could go on and on, but I won't bother to waste anymore of anyone's time. It is no secret I hate Bushmaster and now WW, and I don't apologize for calling it how I see it. They prey on the ignorant. No, not "stupid". The new shooter, or new to AR shooters who don't know what they don't know and think they are getting a good deal. I don't judge a man or woman based on the gun they chose, or possibly sold to them by the guru behind the counter at the LGS. But as a trainer, it is very frustrating to see an excited, eager, and ready to go student let the learning begin show up with a POS rifle like a Bushmaster, or POF, or now..........Windham. Unfortunately, I have yet to have a class that there was not at least one BM/WWPOF. Their upwards of $1500 investment to attend training has always ended in a waste of money, and time. Not one Bushmaster or POF has ever made it though a carbine course I have taught. Not one. I have not seen a POF make it though the first day without showing how bad it sucks, and that is only about a 300 round day.

The common frustrated comment when the course was over............"I wish I had borrowed or rented a rifle and taken this class BEFORE I showed up with this rifle. I'd have sold it and bought a Colt/DD/BCM/Other and wouldn't have wasted 3 days learning the 'slam the buttstock into the ground while pulling the charging handle' method of clearing a FTE". (Among many other chronic issues that arise)

So if I come off as a Bushmaster/Windham/POF hater. I am. They suck. Bad. If my comments/opinions on this topic can prevent one potential student/shooter/potential AR owner from wasting $900-$1600 on a rifle that will fail, fail often, and fail big..........then I am content. If it's a LEO, or shooter who can foresee the rifle as a possible defensive weapon, than I am happy.

[JConn]

As always...........my disclaimer.......just my opinion, and it is worth exactly what you paid for it. This one is pretty biased.

First:

Not sure I really understand the "need a new big screen TV". As I am standing at the crossroads of consolidating two well established households into one in the very near future, I am counting 6 HD flat screen TV's. One 60", one 52", one 40", and three 32". Hey, 6 TV's, and there are 9 rooms in my house. Perfect. But..........Of all of those televisions, we will actually only "need" NONE of them. I compromised with the other head of household, and decided we could keep one for child entertainment (teenager who loves Call of Duty, and I will admit that I take a little pleasure myself teaching him tactical decision making via violent video games) and education purposes. (I hear Baby Einstein is the equivalent of Crack for newly escaped inmates).

But that's just me. I get it, it is 2012, so I can see why most families would have a television.



In all seriousness, and actually on topic.........

What is the intended use of the rifle? I ask, because it could be relevant, and justification for purchasing a Windham if that is what you have your heart set on.

However, if any of your requirements/desires are:

- Dimensions of critical tolerances within established industry specifications
- Long service life/ Durability
- Reliability
- Quality materials and quality assembly of components
- Good quality control/quality assurance
- Good customer service/warranty service

Go buy just about ANY OTHER rifle in the world.

Having never heard the name Windham, and seeing Fred M, and others mention it was a Bushmaster by another name, (which is widely known among folks who see lots and lots of AR's, for producing bottom of the barrel quality rifles), I needed to take a look at their site and see how Windham was different than Bushmaster.

Analogy time:

I could pick up a giant turd off of my back lawn, and take it into the house, wash it off in the sink, pat it dry gently, cover it completely in parsley, sage, rosemary, and thyme....... (while whistling Simon and Garfunkel)...........then put it in a southwestern themed flower pot, add some potting soil to hold it upright, place the pot on my window sill, and tell people it is an extremely rare, and exotic "Taos Cactus".

But changing the name, and making changes to the appearance, and packaging it differently cannot change the fact that underneath the fluff, and my attempts to cover the smell, what I have is still the same piece of shit that was in my yard.

I spent a good deal of time looking and reading, and learning about Windham and their products. But I only needed about 5 minutes to be 100% sure that Windham Weaponry could have just as easily been named "Taos Cactus".

Issues/Concerns noted in those first 5 minutes: (or "why I am convinced WW is synonymous with Taos Cactus")

1) Rifles are chambered in .223 Rem/5.56 NATO. Which is it? .223 Rem or 5.56 NATO? There is a difference. Yes, it matters. Bushmaster never figured that out. Apparently WW hasn't learned that yet either. Though I am not sure why not, since, while reading about the "team", just about everyone in the company has years and years as a former Bushmaster employee. Perhaps WW will bid for the next DoD contract, and try to convince the US Army that .223/5.56 are the same, and it doesn't matter. (again) Maybe they can convince them this time? "Yeah, the barrels are 5.56mm. We stamped it on the side of the barrel, just like in the spec!" (Can't just stamp the barrel, you have to ream the chamber to the proper dimensions too morons).

Epic failure.

2) The home page has a link to the press release announcing WW's partnership with Patriot Ordnance Factory (POF). The only AR manufacturer that I would have said is a bigger POS than Bushmaster. Perfect.....they are going to combine their superpower of suck, and genetically engineer a bigger POS.

3) Warranty. I was baffled. Seriously. Take a look. They have built in, ready made justifications to blame anything but them for a rifle that breaks, sucks, or just doesn't work.

They bait you in, leading you to believe they have a great warranty. From their warranty page................

"Windham Weaponry, Inc. (WW) will warranty all firearms manufactured by WW against any and all manufacturers defects in material and workmanship which affect reasonable operation for the lifetime of the firearm to the purchaser. This warranty is transferrable from the original purchaser to a subsequent buyer.

Sounds good. I like that, and it makes a good selling point if I were to decide to sell it eventually.

BUT............read a little further down............

"The following are specifically excluded from coverage under this warranty and will cause said warranty to become null and void:

Damage or malfunction resulting from accident, negligence, misuse or unauthorized repair or alteration; barrel obstruction; use of ammunition other than NATO and/or SAAMI specification new production ammunition; use of any hand loaded, reloaded, imported or factory re-manufactured ammunition; failure to provide reasonable and necessary maintenance as described in the Operators Manual accompanying the firearm; rust or corrosion; use of replacement parts other than parts authorized by WWI for use in WWI firearms; any unauthorized repair or any alteration, including of a cosmetic nature, performed on the firearm by an individual, organization, company or entity other than WWI; unreasonable or excessive use of the firearm."

So if you go out and grab a bunch of LC headstamped M855 green tip, and your gun breaks or doesn't work........they don't have to cover it under warranty. The green tip that is sold on the civilian market was not to NATO spec......that is why it was sold as surplus. No Q3131. No Aussie. No Brit. No Danish. No German. Wait, some of those countries actually export their NATO spec ammo as a source of revenue. It is NATO spec. But it is imported. Reload to keep costs down but volume of shooting up? Warranty null and void.

Unauthorized repair or alteration, including of a cosmetic nature, performed by anyone other than WW......................???? I actually "LOL'd" when I read that. I think it is the first time in my adult life I had a reaction where the acronym "LOL" was appropriate to describe what I did. The ridiculous meter just pegged. Asinine. Browse their Operator Manual....the BCG shown in their pictures has probably the very best key staking job I have ever seen on a Bushmaster. And it still sucks. Bad. Fortunately for the new WW rifle owner, they can rest assured that they are a serious player in the quality rifle game because.......

" This manual is based upon the
U.S. Gov’t. Issue Manual for M16
A2 Rifles, and will be included with
all semi-automac Windham
Weaponry Firearms.

That makes me feel sooooo much better. Like watching one of those "Based on a true story" movies. I always walk out convinced it was a factual, and historically correct "Docudrama", and accurate representation of the truth. Or not so much. And while one would think that the single largest organization in the world using an AR pattern rifle would be able to produce an operator/user manual, time has educated as that we would be wrong. The Govt. user manual sucks. Glad they based their POS on someone else's. But at least the Govt manual is consistent and does not contradict itself halfway through.

I could go on and on, but I won't bother to waste anymore of anyone's time. It is no secret I hate Bushmaster and now WW, and I don't apologize for calling it how I see it. They prey on the ignorant. No, not "stupid". The new shooter, or new to AR shooters who don't know what they don't know and think they are getting a good deal. I don't judge a man or woman based on the gun they chose, or possibly sold to them by the guru behind the counter at the LGS. But as a trainer, it is very frustrating to see an excited, eager, and ready to go student let the learning begin show up with a POS rifle like a Bushmaster, or POF, or now..........Windham. Unfortunately, I have yet to have a class that there was not at least one BM/WWPOF. Their upwards of $1500 investment to attend training has always ended in a waste of money, and time. Not one Bushmaster or POF has ever made it though a carbine course I have taught. Not one. I have not seen a POF make it though the first day without showing how bad it sucks, and that is only about a 300 round day.

The common frustrated comment when the course was over............"I wish I had borrowed or rented a rifle and taken this class BEFORE I showed up with this rifle. I'd have sold it and bought a Colt/DD/BCM/Other and wouldn't have wasted 3 days learning the 'slam the buttstock into the ground while pulling the charging handle' method of clearing a FTE". (Among many other chronic issues that arise)

So if I come off as a Bushmaster/Windham/POF hater. I am. They suck. Bad. If my comments/opinions on this topic can prevent one potential student/shooter/potential AR owner from wasting $900-$1600 on a rifle that will fail, fail often, and fail big..........then I am content. If it's a LEO, or shooter who can foresee the rifle as a possible defensive weapon, than I am happy.

I might just use this as a reply to every friend who comes to me to ask this question. When I say it they don't care, maybe if someone else says it they will listen.

[SLG]

Couldn't agree with Sean more.

The only exception I've ever seen was at Shaw's, where they seemed intent on running bushmasters no matter what. They were claiming 100,000 rounds through each gun before it was scrapped, and no cleaning whatsoever. Just lube it correctly. Since i routinely (as in over and over and over...) got 20,000 rounds out of a real M4 without issue, and that was considered to be twice the normal service life, i always wondered about the 100,000 round claims. I never did see a malfunction when they demo'd though, and though I spent a lot of time there, I'm pretty sure Sean has spent more. Any thoughts Sean? Other than at least one of the instructors was full of it and is now serving time.

None of the above should imply that I think bushmasters are good. I would never buy one, and I wouldn't want to see a friend waste his time/money with one.

[WDW]

I won't touch anything but Colt. That's partly due to that's the best I can afford right now. But when you can easily get Colts for under $1K, why buy anything else?

[vcdgrips]

Late to the party. You can literally put a Colt on lay a way at wal mart for 1100 ish max.
Do this and drive on. You will not be sorry.

David Barnes
www.vcdgrips.com

[Odin Bravo One]

I deleted the book I wrote.............


I just was pointed to 1911 forum, where this discussion is taking place there.

One of the participants is an employee of WW. Some guys there are asking pointed questions, and expressing displeasure with the BM, etc. and grilling about certain build points, and parts specs. He is the company rep for an AR15 forum of some kind of another, and is a tech support guy......

If interested, go take a look.

This guy is precisely what I am talking about with that company.

Example:

And regarding the staking of the castle nuts I outlined why we do not above.
The previous company that I worked for for 13 years never staked the castle nuts unless it was a request on the contract. I never had any complaints in those years and the company had been doing it the same way for about 15 years before that. A properly torqued castle nut isn't going to come loose. But if one is concerned about it it's super easy for anyone with a punch and a hammer to do. For the small percentage of people that want to see a staked castle nut there will be a larger percentage of people upset that they can't remove the nut. With all of the different stocks and endplates available for upgrades this is what we are going to run into. I used to have a lot of people send their lowers back to me for repair because they wanted to remove the stock but couldn't, and those nuts were unstaked
I've been at this game a long time

Ummmmm.............ok.

The bolts are HP/MP tested but are unmarked. Whether they are batch tested I'm not sure. I will have to get back to you on that as I am not directly involved in that process.

Yeah, sure they are. Why exactly are they NOT marked, if they have been tested? I mean, how do I as the shooter know? Because you tell me it is? Ok. Yes, I will also buy that beach front property you have for sale in Kansas.

Properly staked gas key with proper fasteners YES

FA carrier chrome lined YES (with the exception of NY, NJ, CT, MA we ship AR carriers in the compliant weapons for those states. Still chrome lined)

Individually tested bolts (shot peened) and barrels Barrel steel is MP tested. Bolts are HP/MP tested and shot peened. Still not sure about individual or batch, waiting on the cert from our supplier

11595 barrel steel or 249/240 MG steel or proven (Noveske) stainless, 11595E barrel steel.

Standard profile 1/7. 1/7 14.5 M4s being made now and soon to be released. 1/7 20A2s will be available in the near future

5.56 chamber Yes

Lower parts kit in equal quality to Colt, or at least LMT/BCM/DD YES.

Really? You said that? Are you kidding? Loved the Noveske name dropping. I wear white Fruit of the Loom T-shirts, but do not believe that Michael Jordan and I have anything more in common than that, and we have both been to Chicago. 5.56 chamber.......ok, then how in the MOTHE*^&#(???? do I get good head space if I use a .223 Gauge? Equal to Colt? How did we arrive at that conclusion?



Staked castle nut with milspec diameter extension NO, we leave the staking up to the customer to decide. If a customer wants it factory staked he can call customer service and send the lower in and we will do it at the factory at no charge. Buffer tubes are commercial spec but we are in discussions about offering mil-spec tubes

Correct buffer for gas system YES? It's the same buffer that I've been installing in AR15s for the last 13 years with no issues (previous company)

All holes drilled to spec, including gas ports appropriate to gas system length. Here are our gas port sizes:

14.5"––––––––––––-.067"
16"––––––––––––––-.063"
20"––––––––––––––-.093"

When we start doing 11.5" they will be .076".

Standard or MOE stock/handguard/grip 6 position tele stock, standard A2 pistol grip

M4 feed ramps. YES

Correct height FSB Front sight bases are not F marked. If a taller post is needed we carry +.040 front sight posts in stock.


Same buffer I have been installing......yup. That makes it the right one then. Thanks for clarifying. And I am glad you are consistent with the component correctness being ensured, and thanks for not cluttering up my sight by marking it with the appropriate indicators that tell me it is the proper part.

I finally got an answer about the HP/MP testing on bolts. Our bolts are batch tested not individual. I know there are some people that look down on this method but the previous company we all worked for did it this way and we had negligible bolt failures. I rarely saw any and I repaired hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of AR15 for that company in the 13 years I was there. But keep in mind if anything fails on one of our rifles because of a fault with the firearm we will repair or replace the at no charge.

Yeah, we knew that was what you did. He is selling it to the 1911 groupies. They are buying. It is unfortunate and sad. But, whatever. There are very good, and well documented reasons MilSpec requires 100% testing of those components. Because bolts were breaking in the middle of fucking firefights...............

He also makes more comparisons (such as the Colts small parts, and Noveske steel) where he uses a well known, well respected, trusted company's hard work, dedication, and quality products and compares the materials to what they use. Yes, that number if steel rating is what John uses in his rifles. But John is not building your barrels.

Sad to watch the thread go from honest inquisition, and letting them publicly dig a hole with their lies, half truths, and twisted words, to fanboy and more than a few looking forward to "checking one out". But, this is why I declined when offered the job as the gun police.

[F-Trooper05]

Those of you who frequent M4C have probably seen this, but for those of you who haven't (be careful, Sean, you'll likely shit your pants)...

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=117047


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j_4t6Zu51I

[Al T.]

Disagree. Thought it was an excellent dissertation on what we've seen for years from third tier assemblers.


Admittedly, this has turned into an Anti-Bushmaster smear campaign

Recitation of the facts, not a smear. ;)

[Odin Bravo One]

Those of you who frequent M4C have probably seen this, but for those of you who haven't (be careful, Sean, you'll likely shit your pants)...

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=117047


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j_4t6Zu51I

I doubt I would crap myself. I have only done that a few times since leaving home at 18.............I'll skip the tour just the same.

Our OP asked his question, I offered my observations of watching them fumble around, and fuck up what is a pretty straight forward proposition. I have cited plenty of examples of the mis-direction they use, the partial truths, and out right lies.

Not looking to arrest anyone for violation of the "Don't buy crappy guns act of 2012".

[Alaskapopo]

I won't touch anything but Colt. That's partly due to that's the best I can afford right now. But when you can easily get Colts for under $1K, why buy anything else?

Colt makes solid guns but their selection while getting better still sucks. Personally I would rather have a BCM rifle set up the way I want at the price point of Colt. But I can not fault someone chosing a Colt as a simple basic defensive carbine. I used one for a long time.
Pat

[WDW]

Colt makes solid guns but their selection while getting better still sucks. Personally I would rather have a BCM rifle set up the way I want at the price point of Colt. But I can not fault someone chosing a Colt as a simple basic defensive carbine. I used one for a long time.
Pat

I love BCM. I actually run a 14.5 BCM on my 6920 lower. But damn if full BCM's aren't made of Unobtanium right now. I've never actually seen a complete BCM rifle in person or in stock.

[Odin Bravo One]

Well if we are airing it out............

I spend a good deal of my carbine my money at Noveske Rifleworks. For the general area price of a 6920, or DD, I can pretty much pick the features, barrel, barrel length, twist, flash hider, perma-fixed or not, rail of choice, Troy irons, etc., and end up with a 3/4 custom rifle that does everything I expect it to do. I'm not a "right now" purchaser, when it makes sense to be patient. No, I can't go into the LGS, or Bass Pro and walk out with my rifle, but I get exactly what I want, nothing I don't, and I am not dumping a ton of cash over the life of the rifle to get it where I want it from a base 6920, or basic DD Recce.

I also know that every critical part is inspected as it should be, all components are of the highest quality available anywhere, and if ever I had an issue with the gun, getting it taken care of is a phone call away. Only downside to that is that I have to wait until noon to place that call. Damn time zones.

But 5 of John's rifles later, and another being built, plus some custom work on a SCAR16, I have yet to make a call about an issue.

[Alaskapopo]

Well if we are airing it out............

I spend a good deal of my carbine my money at Noveske Rifleworks. For the general area price of a 6920, or DD, I can pretty much pick the features, barrel, barrel length, twist, flash hider, perma-fixed or not, rail of choice, Troy irons, etc., and end up with a 3/4 custom rifle that does everything I expect it to do. I'm not a "right now" purchaser, when it makes sense to be patient. No, I can't go into the LGS, or Bass Pro and walk out with my rifle, but I get exactly what I want, nothing I don't, and I am not dumping a ton of cash over the life of the rifle to get it where I want it from a base 6920, or basic DD Recce.

I also know that every critical part is inspected as it should be, all components are of the highest quality available anywhere, and if ever I had an issue with the gun, getting it taken care of is a phone call away. Only downside to that is that I have to wait until noon to place that call. Damn time zones.

But 5 of John's rifles later, and another being built, plus some custom work on a SCAR16, I have yet to make a call about an issue.

My Noveske rifles have also been solid performers.
Pat

[David Armstrong]

Thanks for the comments and feedback, folks, although it seems we drifted more into a "why I don't like Bushmaster" instead of "here is my experience with Windham." Not unusual for the internet:D!
FWIW my fighting rifle is a Colt SP-1 transition model, sort of a hybrid A1/A2, and I was considering the Windham as a lightweight spare play-around gun. But I ended up splitting the difference, as they say. Got a good deal on a TV for the kids, and went with a less expensive gun...ordered a DCM M1 Garand.

[Tamara]

Thanks for the comments and feedback, folks, although it seems we drifted more into a "why I don't like Bushmaster" instead of "here is my experience with Windham." Not unusual for the internet:D!

I haven't any experience with H5N1, but given its close genetic relationship to strains of influenza I have had experience with, I see no reason to go get infected just to find out what it's like.

[LittleLebowski]

Thanks for the comments and feedback, folks, although it seems we drifted more into a "why I don't like Bushmaster" instead of "here is my experience with Windham."

That's because it's the same factory in the same location with the same CEO as Bushmaster. Not a big leap to make to think that WW will be like Bushmaster particularly after watching a factory tour where the workers were using less than professional assembly techniques.

[Sparks2112]

I love BCM. I actually run a 14.5 BCM on my 6920 lower. But damn if full BCM's aren't made of Unobtanium right now. I've never actually seen a complete BCM rifle in person or in stock.

Most lgs aren't interested in stocking quality rifles when dpms etc... Are cheaper and can be sold at a higher margin.

[Tamara]

Most lgs aren't interested in stocking quality rifles when dpms etc... Are cheaper and can be sold at a higher margin.

This Is Truth.

Conversely, and you can back me up on this, most customers are hard to sell on the idea that a BCM/DD is worth the difference over a Bushhamster/DPMS. (Or a Baer over a Kimber, or an HK over an XD, or...)

You have to stock what you can sell, but dammit, you have to draw a line somewhere. It's a tough row to hoe...

[WDW]

This Is Truth.

Conversely, and you can back me up on this, most customers are hard to sell on the idea that a BCM/DD is worth the difference over a Bushhamster/DPMS. (Or a Baer over a Kimber, or an HK over an XD, or...)

You have to stock what you can sell, but dammit, you have to draw a line somewhere. It's a tough row to hoe...

True. Having actually actually used an M4 in combat, I value quality. Luckily my LGS stocks plenty of high end guns. I still have never seen a BCM rifle though. I inquired as to such & they said they tried but BCM is so far behind they just don't have any rifles to send. I guess it's hard for a brick & mortar store. You have to stock what people will buy & that's usually the cheapest crap available.

[Sparks2112]

This Is Truth.

Conversely, and you can back me up on this, most customers are hard to sell on the idea that a BCM/DD is worth the difference over a Bushhamster/DPMS. (Or a Baer over a Kimber, or an HK over an XD, or...)

You have to stock what you can sell, but dammit, you have to draw a line somewhere. It's a tough row to hoe...

I actually sell quite a few colts, Daniels, bcm, knights, and noveskes. It's easy to do when I pull a bushy or dpms off the wall, tear it down and show them how it's been improperly manufactured. We sell dpms and bushys to people that force us to. But it's not because we didn't tell them to buy something else.

[Tamara]

It's easy to do when I pull a bushy or dpms off the wall, tear it down and show them how it's been improperly manufactured.

If it has been "improperly manufactured" why are you stocking it? You're just trying to upsell me to get a bigger commission. My buddy has a DPMS and it works fine. You gun store clerks are full of it! I read on AR15.com that Bushmaster made guns for the Army...


;)

[Odin Bravo One]

Indeed, it has turned into a BM bash. But when they softball em in like that...............

And why my question of "What do you want to do with it?" always comes up when someone asks which AR. Because a 200 round a year gun doesn't need to be anything but some out of spec parts, with poor assembly. It will probably work fine for the 900 rounds that gun sees over it's life.

[Sparks2112]

If it has been "improperly manufactured" why are you stocking it? You're just trying to upsell me to get a bigger commission. My buddy has a DPMS and it works fine. You gun store clerks are full of it! I read on AR15.com that Bushmaster made guns for the Army...


;)

Well miss my name isn't on the sign and I'm salaried so I could care less if you buy anything let alone what you buy. We stock them for the people who plan on putting a few hundred rounds through it over the course of ownership and never intend to use it for self defense or as a training rifle. How many rounds has your buddy put through his rifle? How many classes has he taken with it? As far as ar15.com goes, if I get on there and post a thread about how I'm the best lover in the world does that mean you'll take me to bed? Because that's about as true as bushmaster fielding combat worthy rifles to the military.

Ask me how many times each week I have the above conversation.

[Sparks2112]

Indeed, it has turned into a BM bash. But when they softball em in like that...............

And why my question of "What do you want to do with it?" always comes up when someone asks which AR. Because a 200 round a year gun doesn't need to be anything but some out of spec parts, with poor assembly. It will probably work fine for the 900 rounds that gun sees over it's life.

Exactly.

[Al T.]

How many rounds has your buddy put through his rifle? How many classes has he taken with it?

;)

Dude, you missed it. That was sarcasm. Tam is fully cognizant of the quality versus quantity issues. :D

[Tamara]

Ask me how many times each week I have the above conversation.

No need to.

Ask me how many times I've had it. (Well, except for the "best lover" parts...) ;)

On the other hand, I've found that the rebuttal for having Bushhamsters (or Kimbers or Tauruses or whatever...) in stock is what Sean M said above: "What do you plan on doing with the gun? If this is just going to be a range toy..."

Actually, come to think of it, there's a whole 'nother good thread buried in here...

[Sparks2112]

;)

Dude, you missed it. That was sarcasm. Tam is fully cognizant of the quality versus quantity issues. :D

Nah I was playing along. :) forgot my ;)

[Sparks2112]

No need to.

Ask me how many times I've had it. (Well, except for the "best lover" parts...) ;)

On the other hand, I've found that the rebuttal for having Bushhamsters (or Kimbers or Tauruses or whatever...) in stock is what Sean M said above: "What do you plan on doing with the gun? If this is just going to be a range toy..."

Actually, come to think of it, there's a whole 'nother good thread buried in here...

We actually choose not to carry Taurus or kimbers. Our radio spots specifically mention not carrying Taurus. Funny enough the local Taurus rep came in a couple of weeks ago trying to sell stuff. He was a good sport and I had a ton of fun with that conversation.

Oddly enough he's also the local Troy rep, so he'll be getting some business from us.

[Tamara]

We actually choose not to carry Taurus or kimbers. Our radio spots specifically mention not carrying Taurus.

At the last shop I worked at, where I finally got control over what we stocked, we only carried their Beretta clones and DA revolvers. And then I stopped carrying their revolvers for a year or so. Oh, dear gawd, what a stink (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2006/11/boomsticks-love-is-blind.html) that caused! :eek:

[Alaskapopo]

Well miss my name isn't on the sign and I'm salaried so I could care less if you buy anything let alone what you buy. We stock them for the people who plan on putting a few hundred rounds through it over the course of ownership and never intend to use it for self defense or as a training rifle. How many rounds has your buddy put through his rifle? How many classes has he taken with it? As far as ar15.com goes, if I get on there and post a thread about how I'm the best lover in the world does that mean you'll take me to bed? Because that's about as true as bushmaster fielding combat worthy rifles to the military.

Ask me how many times each week I have the above conversation.

The thing is some people think these rifles (DPMS, Bushmaster etc) will make fine defensive rifles and their sorely mistaken. Every department I have worked for has issued DPMS crap and I have been responsible for making them run. My job would be a lot easier had quality rifles been purchased from the start.
Pat

[David Armstrong]

hmmm...strange misfire. Should finish cofee before trying to get on internet:p

[JAD]

Congrats on the Garand, David. While we can debate the equivalency of 9 and 45, it's hard to argue 5.56 vs .30-06.

[David Armstrong]

Congrats on the Garand, David. While we can debate the equivalency of 9 and 45, it's hard to argue 5.56 vs .30-06.
Thanks. Interestingly, with a career of carrying odd guns around this will be my first Garand that I have owned. As for equivalency, everything has its place. After cutting my teeth on the M16 A1 as a fighting rifle I really appreciated the difference in size when I was given a SMLE in .303 or a CETME in .308. The big boys are nice for a defensive position, but if I have to carry it very far I really want a lighter weight gun and round. I'll give up the downrange and barrier performance for the weight savings.