Why or Why Not an HSC 380 or an Ortgies 32?

[Ghost Dog]

Not into either caliber yet, and 32 is expensive. Many Said later HSCs in 380s didn't function but I'm not sure if that was w American PUD 380 and maybe they'd run fine with PPU or Fiocchi 380?

To be lured or not?

Have no designs that old and want a bit different but don't want Regerts

Thanks

[Ghost Dog]

Not into either caliber yet, and 32 is expensive. Many Said later HSCs in 380s didn't function but I'm not sure if that was w American PUD 380 and maybe they'd run fine with PPU or Fiocchi 380?

To be lured or not?

Have no designs that old and want a bit different but don't want Regerts

Thanks

No one with experience with either of these? I did search and found some old stuff but want to hear more, and with the hsc if people tried running hotter Euro 380 or not?

[Joe in PNG]

Are you looking for a fun gun that you can shoot occasionally, or to use one of these old guns as a self-defense tool?

[MattyD380]

Most of what I hear is that post-war HScs weren’t reliable… including .32s and .380s… but the wartime ones were good. Granted, I have no experience with HScs of any vintage or the Ortgies. But I did shoot a Makarov PM last night…

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The Mak is my favorite of the old-school blowbacks. Subjectively, I find find it more comfortable to shoot than PPKs, P230s and Beretta Cheetahs in .380. And just as accurate as all of the above. If you are looking for a “practical relic”… the Mak is awesome.

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[Joe in PNG]

My preference for an HSC would be the HK-4, if I could afford one or find one.

[Jim Watson]

A friend’s real WWII Mauser HSc .32 was reliable but had a notably tough DA. I don’t know about the post war commercials, I think made in Italy.
Another guy’s Sauer 38H was smoother… but not reliable.

[Navin Johnson]

Why not a quality pistol in a service caliber with ammunition off of the list and just learn how to shoot the fucking thing?

Unless it’s just for fun.

[G19Fan]

Not into either caliber yet, and 32 is expensive. Many Said later HSCs in 380s didn't function but I'm not sure if that was w American PUD 380 and maybe they'd run fine with PPU or Fiocchi 380?

To be lured or not?

Have no designs that old and want a bit different but don't want Regerts

Thanks

Assuming not for self defense. Sure

But don't see a point either way

[Joe in PNG]

I'll admit a bit of an obsession fondness for various pre WWII mouseguns, and actually have a couple*- but I wouldn't tote one for self-defense.
Even if I was able to track down a nice Bayard 1908 in .32acp or FN 1910 - I'd carry an LCP or Shield.


*but NOT ENOUGH!!!!!!

[MattyD380]

I'll admit a bit of an obsession fondness for various pre WWII mouseguns, and actually have a couple*- but I wouldn't tote one for self-defense.
Even if I was able to track down a nice Bayard 1908 in .32acp or FN 1910 - I'd carry an LCP or Shield.


*but NOT ENOUGH!!!!!!

There's an FN 1910 sitting in my LGS's case for $350. It's got some patina. But it's also $350. I kinda want it.

[Ghost Dog]

I'm really not sure why anyone is assuming I don't have a plethora of choices of daily tools for self defense, nor already have fairly high skills & legit training.

Was asking the pros and cons of getting one of these.

But out of the old ones, these two designs are pretty safe ones that can be carried in safe ways ready to go without a safety that is horribly designed like many others that therefore need either condition 3 carry-a no go for me, or loaded not necessarily drop safe and a safety that would need a bad guy to wait a minute as you manage to take it off in a unergonomic way. Ortgies hopefully would have a working grip safety. HSC DA pull. Both very thought out usable designs and engineering. Even if I did have one, one day, on me when needed I highly doubt statistically I would die in the streetz. In fact, of these designs I think the highest extremely low percentage chance of anything wrong in that precise moment would be an Ortgies just happen to be warn down that exact day and going burrrrrrrpppppp. That's the only severe breakage I am aware of, other than the grips being f'd up some on many.

Because they are classic old and I don't own anything pre 60's, look cool, functional engineering better than most of the era etc. HSC not only an art deco beauty, but earliest pistol of Alex Seidel.....so maybe it would keep the HK I am actually carrying 1/3rd of the time happy. I have a 9 and a 40 that split most of the time based on weight for that day, with a 45 and a 357 option carried less often. Because I can. And all shoot to high standards for me.

There is not nearly enough enabling going on here. Though an Ortgies would mean buying .32 ammo which costs a good deal, and an HSC well I would hope it would mostly run with at least one brand of ammo and not just being something to look at occasionally. Getting some 380 makes more sense...because it would enable something else more modern perhaps....but wasn't sure if HSCs would run, with hotter Euro ammo or not. WW2 .32s were better I guess, but then ammo cost and possible bad WW1 WW2 pistol collecting may start. So is a later run 380 HSC more likely to not run, or may run with something like PPU or Fiocchi maybe

Thanks

[feudist]

I'll admit a bit of an obsession fondness for various pre WWII mouseguns, and actually have a couple*- but I wouldn't tote one for self-defense.
Even if I was able to track down a nice Bayard 1908 in .32acp or FN 1910 - I'd carry an LCP or Shield.


*but NOT ENOUGH!!!!!!

The movie Flame and Citron got me started.

[Ghost Dog]

I think I would love and maybe even a couple times carry a 1908 if it was modern and drop safe. I belive one company is making such but expensive?

Keep in mind I kind of suggested the new Pistol Enabling thread

And I have Belt carry choices w premium JHPs

And a micro 9 or two or snub or two for pocket already covered

Thanks just having fun and wondering which way I should sway on this itch

32 doesn't make much sense. 380 could theoretically be carried if was vetted reliable and hydrashok deep just managed to function but that's a lot of ifs...and really just want to know if hsc 380 may function pretty good w hot ammo or shouldn't do hsc unless 32.....which leads to ortgies 32 which would lead to a 1914/34 and then 1903 and I shouldn't go down that rabbit hole but I kind of want to

Save me or enable me.

380 I could get a security 380 or bersa Plus just because. Before Ammo crisis again which another reason I Like 40.

[BN]

I remember reading some articles about the Ortgies in a Gun Digest annual maybe 25 or more years ago. The guy was using it for a plinker. I don't remember reading much about the HSC.

32 ACP ammo is available online for around $25 a box. 380 is pretty common and it's cheaper.

I vote enable. Buy it and report back to us. ;)

[Ghost Dog]

I remember reading some articles about the Ortgies in a Gun Digest annual maybe 25 or more years ago. The guy was using it for a plinker. I don't remember reading much about the HSC.

32 ACP ammo is available online for around $25 a box. 380 is pretty common and it's cheaper.

I vote enable. Buy it and report back to us. ;)


I'm not sure if you're a friend or an enemy but thanks ☺️

And Ortgies were made in the absolutely devastating. 25 and while old .25 autos are cool too I'd feel much better handing grandma a 32 ... I mean ww1 and 32s do penetrate enough and worked forevee or lend whatever girlfriend I had at the time a 380 or 9. Theoretically of course, before that accident and theft where sadly nearly all were lost.

A 380 loaner or train new females on isn't horrible idea

[Outpost75]

I prefer the Berettas myself. I have the M1934 in .380, a 1935 in ..32' and a 948 in .22LR

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[SCCY Marshal]

I think I would love and maybe even a couple times carry a 1908 if it was modern and drop safe...

Try a FN 1910 but with better sights smithed on in some fashion.

[lee n. field]

My preference for an HSC would be the HK-4, if I could afford one or find one.

Local FFL has one in their used inventory, has had it for a while. In .32. Currently asking $655. One mag, no box.

[sharps54]

I had an HSc in .380, wish it had been in .32 honestly. It is like a PPK recoil wise, I always preferred the .32 PPK and PPK/S models. The auto closing of the slide when you insert a magazine was kind of cool. It did have a heavy DA trigger. I probably should have kept it but like so many cool things I owned over the years I ended up selling it for some reason or another in the late 90s.

[Ghost Dog]

I prefer the Berettas myself. I have the M1934 in .380, a 1935 in ..32' and a 948 in .22LR

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I would like a 1934 first kind of beretta open top slide I believe, though that safety to take off looks not awesome for practical usage. I've kind of become intrigued how most was still getting figured out re safe but ready carry

Nice Shooter in 380?

[Ghost Dog]

Try a FN 1910 but with better sights smithed on in some fashion.


You have my attention but same basic single action not drop safe kinda thing right? Will need to look into more thanks

[Ghost Dog]

Local FFL has one in their used inventory, has had it for a while. In .32. Currently asking $655. One mag, no box.


I'd probably go 540 w 2 mags or 1 mag and box but I'm cheap and at least the 380 ones seem do demand premium s or if have 2 calibers

[Ghost Dog]

I had an HSc in .380, wish it had been in .32 honestly. It is like a PPK recoil wise, I always preferred the .32 PPK and PPK/S models. The auto closing of the slide when you insert a magazine was kind of cool. It did have a heavy DA trigger. I probably should have kept it but like so many cool things I owned over the years I ended up selling it for some reason or another in the late 90s.


Was the reason recoil or reliability? Recoil I don't care if no slide bite. I've longed for a Manurhin PP in 32 as well .

So is hsc in 380 reliable w hotter ammo or everything chokes once per mag kind of thing? What ammo did it like? Thanks

One I was going to bid on today got too high from the second I could check

[Flamingo]

Was the reason recoil or reliability? Recoil I don't care if no slide bite. I've longed for a Manurhin PP in 32 as well .

So is hsc in 380 reliable w hotter ammo or everything chokes once per mag kind of thing? What ammo did it like? Thanks

One I was going to bid on today got too high from the second I could check

I have a Manurhin PP in 32. I like it except for the sights and the horrific DA trigger.. I am going to send it off to get some Novak adjustable sights installed.

[sharps54]

Double post

[sharps54]

Was the reason recoil or reliability? Recoil I don't care if no slide bite. I've longed for a Manurhin PP in 32 as well .

So is hsc in 380 reliable w hotter ammo or everything chokes once per mag kind of thing? What ammo did it like? Thanks

One I was going to bid on today got too high from the second I could check

Honestly I didn’t shoot it a whole lot and only ball at that. I don’t remember any reliably issues. I was in the gun of the week club while I was in the Army and I went through a bunch of different things back then. I think I just needed some extra money to get something different and felt it was the one I could do without. The main pistol I had in those days that I remember being unreliable was a 80 series Colt Officer Model but that is pretty normal.

[Joe in PNG]

Between a .32 or .380, the .32 is my preference for actual shooting. The recoil in the small blowback guns can be a bit brisk and a bit concentrated with the small, thin frames & grips.

And if my LGS had a FN 1910 for $350, I'd be on it faster than a Serbian on an Austrian Archduke.

[MattyD380]

Between a .32 or .380, the .32 is my preference for actual shooting. The recoil in the small blowback guns can be a bit brisk and a bit concentrated with the small, thin frames & grips.

And if my LGS had a FN 1910 for $350, I'd be on it faster than a Serbian on an Austrian Archduke.

Hahaha.

Cash is tight. And I just bought a DA/SA slide + guts for my DAO Beretta Cougar—which was nearly as much. Sigh.

[Joe in PNG]

Hahaha.

Cash is tight. And I just bought a DA/SA slide + guts for my DAO Beretta Cougar—which was nearly as much. Sigh.

I feel your pain- I've seen plenty of cool guns slip away because I was about $100 short in my gun budget.

[TGS]

Ghost Dog

The HSc is regarded as a "1,000 round gun...both the original model in 32, as well as the post-war 380. Even if you get one that's reliable, it will eventually develop cracks in the frame. Logic suggests that using hotter ammo in 380 will only make this happen quicker; note that the 380 variant was not a successful pistol, and no European organization adopted them for any substantial amount of service....so it's not like they have a history that suggests it's a good idea to use hot 380 ammo in them, regardless of the fact they were imported from Europe.

If for some reason you decide that a blow-back 380 is a good option to purposely carry, a SIG P232, Walther PPK, Beretta series-80 or even Bersa Thunder are all better choices. If you haven't shot one of these vintage-design blowback 380s, I would strongly suggest doing so before dropping cash on one...they're generally not nice guns to shoot.

If you just have to have an HSc, get the original in .32 from early war production. The DA sucks but otherwise it's a nice gun. Caveat emptor on CCWing a gun with Nazi stampings, though.

They're beautiful guns, best left to display.

Signed,

Owner of a Mauser HSc and SIG P232

[Joe in PNG]

And now for some minor enabling for my fellow Mousegun enthusiast: Walther Model 9 25 ACP 2" vest pocket pistol $400 (https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1037223591)

[Outpost75]

I would like a 1934 first kind of beretta open top slide I believe, though that safety to take off looks not awesome for practical usage. I've kind of become intrigued how most was still getting figured out re safe but ready carry

Nice Shooter in 380?

The way I was taught by Carabinieri was that when carried in a secure flap holster chamber could be loaded and hammer set on half-cock notch. If not holstered off duty pocket carry is with empty chamber and hammer at full cock to ease effort in racking slide.to chamber a round.

When slide is locked open upon firing last round, retract slide and engage safety to hold the slide open. Remove empty mag. Insert fresh mag, then disengage safety to release the slide to chamber a round.

[Ghost Dog]

Ghost Dog

The HSc is regarded as a "1,000 round gun...both the original model in 32, as well as the post-war 380. Even if you get one that's reliable, it will eventually develop cracks in the frame. Logic suggests that using hotter ammo in 380 will only make this happen quicker; note that the 380 variant was not a successful pistol, and no European organization adopted them for any substantial amount of service....so it's not like they have a history that suggests it's a good idea to use hot 380 ammo in them, regardless of the fact they were imported from Europe.

If for some reason you decide that a blow-back 380 is a good option to purposely carry, a SIG P232, Walther PPK, Beretta series-80 or even Bersa Thunder are all better choices. If you haven't shot one of these vintage-design blowback 380s, I would strongly suggest doing so before dropping cash on one...they're generally not nice guns to shoot.

If you just have to have an HSc, get the original in .32 from early war production. The DA sucks but otherwise it's a nice gun. Caveat emptor on CCWing a gun with Nazi stampings, though.

They're beautiful guns, best left to display.

Signed,

Owner of a Mauser HSc and SIG P232

lol thanks, I mean, if I did ever wear a Tuxedo and drink a Martini shaken not stirred I might actually carry one of those but I kind of just like the thought of it. I would in fact want a 232, probably blued is lighter aluminum frame right. I could see that as useful and follow all the time but once creep over $450 my good me says no. I am jealous though. Same, Beretta 84 would be awesome, though a BDA even more so because of decocker.

I have been considering a Bersa Plus, if runs with Hyrdashock Deep would be a legit carry option which...I wouldn't do though could , and know a Security 380 less recoil (which maybe in 10 years or so I might have to do to damaged hands-but now can rock anything .357 magnum/40 or less ok), but then Plus would be too thick for most females as a step up...I usually have them run one or two 22s and there is two 9s that seem to work well for most once getting them a bit squared away.

At least the 32 hsc's once cracked frame still run fine though right? like most but not all older 32 Tomcats do?

probably hsc or pp's in .32 are a slightly better experience, but ammo cost and availability difference kinda sucks

[Ghost Dog]

to be fair the only 380 I ever owned was an OG lcp which was a true BUG for a long time and recoil was nothing to me, then I got a few jams eventually and faith got lost so no longer as better small Micro9 stuff started coming on market.
About to be there with my first Micro9...no issues ever one handed or whatever and then two FTFs have taken, one seems to be an OAL issue with too long, the 2nd I am not sure...so broken some faith but not enough to stop yet... May be replaced by newer one, but I prefer the pocket holster I have for the getting questionable one...

I do not believe either the recoil spring or mag springs should be warn out this fast it is not a very high round count.

Admittedly I also think 1914 or 1934 and Savage may be kinda cool too.

A lot of interesting stuff I wasn't open to until recently so I guess I am getting Fuddy :)

[TGS]

Admittedly I also think 1914 or 1934 and Savage may be kinda cool too.

A lot of interesting stuff I wasn't open to until recently so I guess I am getting Fuddy :)

Nothing wrong with that. I carry a tacticool'd-out Glock everyday but still enjoy these guns for what they are.

I also had exposure to the Mauser 1914. It was an awesome gun, very fun to shoot, and a much better trigger and ergonomics than the HSc or Walther PP. Unfortunately when my grandfather passed away, it went to my brother and like any typical enlisted sailor in need of beer money, he fuckin' pawned it.

If you want an old-timey CCW gun but just for the sake of it being fun to own and fun to shoot, the Mauser 1914 or 1934 would be my suggestion. They're very fun to shoot, even by modern standards.

[Ghost Dog]

Nothing wrong with that. I carry a tacticool'd-out Glock everyday but still enjoy these guns for what they are.

I also had exposure to the Mauser 1914. It was an awesome gun, very fun to shoot, and a much better trigger and ergonomics than the HSc or Walther PP. Unfortunately when my grandfather passed away, it went to my brother and like any typical enlisted sailor in need of beer money, he fuckin' pawned it.

If you want an old-timey CCW gun but just for the sake of it being fun to own and fun to shoot, the Mauser 1914 or 1934 would be my suggestion. They're very fun to shoot, even by modern standards.


Cheers thanks if a deal is found...I get excited do research and then back out as much as I can if things cross Deal threshold otherwise things would be real bad.

[loper77]

Not an apples to apples comparison, but I just got done shooting an original Remington 51 in 380 I picked up for the first time. Even with the "delayed" blowback, recoil was a little more brisk than I liked for what will be a fun gun. I'm thinking I might look for one in 32, it is a neat pistol.

[TDA]

I happen to have an Ortgies .380 hanging around that belonged to my wife’s grandfather. My late father in law complained that it jammed, but I happen to know that he was trying to run 1990’s vintage Winchester Silvertips through it since most of the box is still left. It doesn’t love a wide variety of bullet profiles. It likes FMJ. It’s a pretty accurate little gun with the fixed barrel, and well made, although I’ve seen better sights on water pistols. I want to say that Germany made a lot of them in the interwar period to keep their arms industry afloat and got in trouble for dumping them on the export market. They’re still inexpensive, if you just feel like shooting one for the novelty.

[Jim Watson]

Not an apples to apples comparison, but I just got done shooting an original Remington 51 in 380 I picked up for the first time. Even with the "delayed" blowback, recoil was a little more brisk than I liked for what will be a fun gun. I'm thinking I might look for one in 32, it is a neat pistol.

I am sure you know that this is an unusual case of Remington starting with and making more .380s. The .32s are a lot less common.

I am sorry I sold mine because it would not feed hollow points. Same as selling my first P220 because it would not handle semiwadcutters. I have gotten over the funny bullet stuff. JHP 9mm for defense, roundnose most of the rest.

[Ghost Dog]

I prefer the Berettas myself. I have the M1934 in .380, a 1935 in ..32' and a 948 in .22LR

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Talk to me Goose, tell me more about why to like a 1934 Beretta in 380

Most 30s 40s ones should still run fine?

Any thoughts on the new shorted barrel German Reman imported stupid law ones

[Outpost75]

Talk to me Goose, tell me more about why to like a 1934 Beretta in 380

Most 30s 40s ones should still run fine?

Any thoughts on the new shorted barrel German Reman imported stupid law ones


Roy Dunlap in Ordnance Went Up Front praised the M1934 as the most rugged and reliable of the WW2 era pocket pistols. The M1934 is simple and sturdy, having fewer parts than a US M1911 .45. It was in continuous production into the 1970s so that pistols, mags and spare parts are both plentiful and affordable. The M1934 remained in Italian police and miilitary service even after adoption of the 9mm M1951 and M92 The M1934 was frequently issued as a PDW to Italian personnel in civil affairs and medical assignments on UN peace missions, because it was more easily concealed and presented a lower profile. It is still favored by Italian municipal police in administrative billets and for off duty concealed carry by Federal police, forestry, financial, prisons and military. Only Italian Federal officers are authorized off duty carry and weapons must be concealed.

I had two 1960s manufacture former West German Police Walthers which both failed in the same manner. The safety shaft lever is the single point of failure. Weak point in the design. Result is that the PP and PPk series pistols do not stand up to high volume use. Got rid of both of mine after repair and bought two more Berettas. SIG P230 and P232 are solid and do not suffer this affliction. Good backup to carry in string holster in NPE.

The steel frame M1935 Beretta in 7.65 Browning, when you heavy-up the recoil springs with .380 set will stand up to steady use with Euro 77-grain Heavy Ball or S-B steel core Vz61 Scorpion ammo. I handload pulled 7.62x25 Type PS steel core or handload 90-grain, .309" diameter Hornady XTP at 0.96 OAL with 3 grains of AutoComp for 930 fps from 8cm barrel, matching .380 ACP payload and velocity. The XTP gives expansion to .40 cal penetrating 14 inches of calibrated gelatin.

The steel core 7.65 Brownjng S-B Scorpion loads defeat a lIIa vest.

[SCCY Marshal]

You have my attention but same basic single action not drop safe kinda thing right? Will need to look into more thanks

It's been years since I have a 1903 and 1910 apart side-by-side but felt that Browning had made massive improvements with the newer model.

The grip safety is stiffer and directly blocks the sear. The manual safety just locks the grip safety in it engaged position. Magazines are easier and cheaper to find, these days. While the tiny gutter sight is barely useable for target work, it is absolutely snag-free. And the slide is steel where anything can be brazed on if one so chooses.

The FN 1910 is smaller, more refined, safe, less snaggy, and totally underrated. Granted my experience begins and ends with 32 ACP examples of the 1910 and 1903.

If I can add to Outpost75's chat about the 380 ACP Beretta model 1934, it is another excellent pistol. Good general-purpose sights, good mechanical accuracy, reliable, stout as a brick shit house, acceptable trigger, a safety that is safe to use (if awkward for those with shorter thumbs), light recoil, happy to run a range of power levels of handloads within reason, and just a tactile pleasure to handle and shoot. Try one at the very least. My one and only complaint is the magazines being hard to find, particularly with serviceable feed lips that haven't been bent open.

[Ghost Dog]

Roy Dunlap in Ordnance Went Up Front praised the M1934 as the most rugged and reliable of the WW2 era pocket pistols. The M1934 is simple and sturdy, having fewer parts than a US M1911 .45. It was in continuous production into the 1970s so that pistols, mags and spare parts are both plentiful and affordable. The M1934 remained in Italian police and miilitary service even after adoption of the 9mm M1951 and M92 The M1934 was frequently issued as a PDW to Italian personnel in civil affairs and medical assignments on UN peace missions, because it was more easily concealed and presented a lower profile. It is still favored by Italian municipal police in administrative billets and for off duty concealed carry by Federal police, forestry, financial, prisons and military. Only Italian Federal officers are authorized off duty carry and weapons must be concealed.

I had two 1960s manufacture former West German Police Walthers which both failed in the same manner. The safety shaft lever is the single point of failure. Weak point in the design. Result is that the PP and PPk series pistols do not stand up to high volume use. Got rid of both of mine after repair and bought two more Berettas. SIG P230 and P232 are solid and do not suffer this affliction. Good backup to carry in string holster in NPE.

The steel frame M1935 Beretta in 7.65 Browning, when you heavy-up the recoil springs with .380 set will stand up to steady use with Euro 77-grain Heavy Ball or S-B steel core Vz61 Scorpion ammo. I handload pulled 7.62x25 Type PS steel core or handload 90-grain, .309" diameter Hornady XTP at 0.96 OAL with 3 grains of AutoComp for 930 fps from 8cm barrel, matching .380 ACP payload and velocity. The XTP gives expansion to .40 cal penetrating 14 inches of calibrated gelatin.

The steel core 7.65 Brownjng S-B Scorpion loads defeat a lIIa vest.


Did you write all this? That is an old school quality level magazine write up without hyperbole fluff.

[Ghost Dog]

It's been years since I have a 1903 and 1910 apart side-by-side but felt that Browning had made massive improvements with the newer model.

The grip safety is stiffer and directly blocks the sear. The manual safety just locks the grip safety in it engaged position. Magazines are easier and cheaper to find, these days. While the tiny gutter sight is barely useable for target work, it is absolutely snag-free. And the slide is steel where anything can be brazed on if one so chooses.

The FN 1910 is smaller, more refined, safe, less snaggy, and totally underrated. Granted my experience begins and ends with 32 ACP examples of the 1910 and 1903.

If I can add to Outpost75's chat about the 380 ACP Beretta model 1934, it is another excellent pistol. Good general-purpose sights, good mechanical accuracy, reliable, stout as a brick shit house, acceptable trigger, a safety that is safe to use (if awkward for those with shorter thumbs), light recoil, happy to run a range of power levels of handloads within reason, and just a tactile pleasure to handle and shoot. Try one at the very least. My one and only complaint is the magazines being hard to find, particularly with serviceable feed lips that haven't been bent open.


Thank you. I searched last night for FN 1910 and that's about my $350 deal limit and $550 if I really really want it limit I've only broken a few times for real quality.

On the Beretta how to carry? Figure out completely weird swivel safety motion or best you can lower half cock on? Drop safe that way or no? Or isn't really feasible chamber loaded...condition 3 quicker which not for me

[Outpost75]

Did you write all this? That is an old school quality level magazine write up without hyperbole fluff.

Yes, I AM an "old school" gun writer,

After service in USN on NRA Tech Staff 1974-84, left NRA for Ruger Engineering Dept, 1984-87. Consultant to USMC Development Center on the M16A1E1, A2 and M4..and various engineering positions in local government. Civilian writings published in American Rifleman prior to 1984, Gun Digest, International Defense Review, and since retirement a contributing author to The Fouling Shot and various blogs.

[Ghost Dog]

Yes, I AM an "old school" gun writer,

After service in USN on NRA Tech Staff 1974-84, left NRA for Ruger Engineering Dept, 1984-87. Consultant to USMC Development Center on the M16A1E1, A2 and M4..and various engineering positions in local government. Civilian writings published in American Rifleman prior to 1984, Gun Digest, International Defense Review, and since retirement a contributing author to The Fouling Shot and various blogs.

I thought it might be something like that. Impressive. I qualified Expert on an A2. If you can help me find a Ruger Security GS33 under $550 that would be amazing. I've unfortunately let two get away from me, one at an auction house that didn't realize what they had but in a state that overpays for everything. I had already bought the expensive manual. That is the design and barrel length/profile they should start making again in both .357 and 9mm to fill a certain void in their lineup being filled better by other companies now.

Thank you for the thorough reply not found on the internet often and the quality of writing not found anymore other than maybe a few sources. Though I haven't bought a gun rag in years and most magazines are going under; with the exception of USCCA magazine I get because I am still torn between their entire debacles and AOR.

In what condition, if one were to ever carry a 1934/35 would you recommend for quickest deployment that is both safe and drop safe? Let's say carried in a generic leather holster AIWB...Is the condition 3 the only good choice? Ie at half cock chamber loaded not drop safe with safety off? Safety manipulation looks strange for Condition 1....

[Outpost75]

I do not carry the M1934 in high threat environments. It is a woods companion and load test platform.

My .380 of choice for summer city CCW is a SIG P230. But my most common rural country EDC is a Colt Agent .38 Special.

In cold winter weather a 3-1/2" Colt New Service .455 is in the Hand warmer pocket of Filson packer coat.

Over the road gun is S&W 940 as concealed backup and a Beretta 92FS in the GHB.

[Ghost Dog]

Is a 230 or 232 definitely something to get before they dry up then? Even if unlikely to actually carry often, though I suppose if I ever meet a woman again I like and somewhat trust it could be a loaner or nice gift down the road.

Top of list of .380s to get?
230 or 232
Beretta 84 or BDA
Beretta 1934

Sound about right or any others to strongly consider?

What about
Astra A400 or something like that double stack 380 even if not wanting to have to Dremel Beretta mags

Speaking off Astra 300 400 600

Modern ones I would consider down the road Bersa Plus and Ruger Security 380

[Outpost75]

Is a 230 or 232 definitely something to get before they dry up then? Even if unlikely to actually carry often, though I suppose if I ever meet a woman again I like and somewhat trust it could be a loaner or nice gift down the road.

Top of list of .380s to get?
230 or 232
Beretta 84 or BDA
Beretta 1934

Sound about right or any others to strongly consider?

What about
Astra A400 or something like that double stack 380 even if not wanting to have to Dremel Beretta mags

Speaking off Astra 300 400 600

Modern ones I would consider down the road Bersa Plus and Ruger Security 380

Priority for me was to find a pair of P230s in .380 and one in 7.65mm. The 7.65 P230.can be carried cocked and locked or is also drop safe with hammer down firing first shot DA and subsequent rounds SA like the .380 version

In older pistols the Cz27, Cz50, Cz70 are all good IF you have real Cz mags, NOT Triple-K, which are junk.

Beretta 70, 84, BDA are all good.

Have not tested Bersa, etc.

[Outpost75]

I was lucky when I retired in 2011 and spent six weeks in Italy. My host was retired Col. of Carabinieri I had worked with on their M4 evaluation. He provided introductions to.Beretta, and Fiocchi and I shot in cowboy matches with the Pietta brothers. Had a great time and had large DSL 10kg overseas box shipped home and clearing US Customs with mags, barrels, cylinders and spare parts.

[TGS]

Is a 230 or 232 definitely something to get before they dry up then? Even if unlikely to actually carry often, though I suppose if I ever meet a woman again I like and somewhat trust it could be a loaner or nice gift down the road.

Top of list of .380s to get?
230 or 232
Beretta 84 or BDA
Beretta 1934

Sound about right or any others to strongly consider?

What about
Astra A400 or something like that double stack 380 even if not wanting to have to Dremel Beretta mags

Speaking off Astra 300 400 600

Modern ones I would consider down the road Bersa Plus and Ruger Security 380

I'm going to again reiterate that blowback 380s are generally not pleasant to shoot. Both women I had shoot my P232SL refused to even finish the magazine. This was the SL model, which is heavier than the aluminum frame version you're interested in. That version will be even more unpleasant.

They're an objectively terrible choice to give a person with small hands/low grip strength.

[JonInWA]

Ok, so why not just get a Glock 19 and call it good???

Ok, now that I've got that out of my system....In a .380/9x18 Makarov classic, I'd recommend a CZ 83, a Makarov, a Beretta 1934, a Beretta 84/85. For "cool" style points, a FN 1910 (the very late production variants actually had demi-decent sights...), a Remington Model 51, etc.

The Mauser HSc and SIG P230 do not have great reputations for durability.

Best, Jon

[MattyD380]

P230s/P232s are cool. I had an all-stainless P230 and two blued alloy P230s--one of which was actually Japanese police overrun in .32. Kinda wish I still had that puppy.

Still, I personally prefer the Beretta Cheetah. I find my 85 more comfortable to shoot--and I feel like I shoot it better than the P230s I had. But if I cold only have one blowback blaster... I think it would be my East German Makarov. It shoots a bit softer than the Cheetah and seems just as accurate. Plus, 9x18 makes slightly bigger holes than capitalist 9mm cartridges.

[Ghost Dog]

I like nice looking

Sick of plastic strikers though 1 is in my main carry rotation when want lighter weight. There is only one plastic 9 I desire right now and that has two hammers...p30sk LEM but more modern capacity mags and night sights so even picky on finding that.

I like DA/SA more than most or decent SA or good to great Striker triggers or light lem etc

I like well placed thought out safeties and better decocker, say a CZ50 or CZ70 but I haven't held and heard small and not best Ergos, also heavy

Didn't know 230s weren't that durable, seemed like a ton of Feds/Secret Service types always liked them for off duty and retirement back in the day...Maybe just because 228 or 229 orgs... But it seems 230s are way more enjoyable then the PP stuff in .380 anyways, though a PP in 32 I bet is nice.

I've shot tons and tons and tons of different pistols just not a ton of old stuff.

Until it's 44 mag It's just grab and shoot doesn't make difference even timed drills by much until over 357 for me...while doing it except the next day and lasting which is starting to rear it's head more

But I guess grip thickness dictates a lot to many people...like og lcp I just crush and shoot while others think it's nasty

I know I would love shooting Beretta 81 which I have before or 84 just ammo cost on the former and a bit less on the later. Would prefer BDA for decocker, or less good looking 84F perhaps

I'd likely only realistically carry a 380 a bit in the future if it was a double stack and fed hydrashok deep as 1st choice or at least Gold Dots or XTPs. An 84 could work but have to load and decock before leaving range...I don't want to be doing that in house. Fully loaded I think an 84 is still light I think for a belt carry which may become more necessary in the future though modern Micro9s are dang light.

See my post in other thread that very logically says the only two kinds of actually good glocks in 2024...with the 1st not being made by glock and the other being free duty issued ones that actually saved your life.
If I was so boring to carry a G19 like everybody else I would prefer the robbers just shoot me and not carry. If you mandate me carry one I would want it to be a gen 5 but even then....

Given prices just as a shooter I might want to get a 1934 it might scratch wanting a classic itch for less than others and would pair with an 84 for a fun range day too at some point.

[Outpost75]

SIG P230 and 232 are more durable than Walther PP and PPk. No issues.

Purists do not care for the powder metal parts in the P232 but having used both I have zero concerns. Either are more durable than Walthers.

[Ghost Dog]

P230s/P232s are cool. I had an all-stainless P230 and two blued alloy P230s--one of which was actually Japanese police overrun in .32. Kinda wish I still had that puppy.

Still, I personally prefer the Beretta Cheetah. I find my 85 more comfortable to shoot--and I feel like I shoot it better than the P230s I had. But if I cold only keep one blowback blaster... I think it would be my East German Makarov.

Cheers,
I think I would like a Mak a lot but getting into that caliber makes less sense than the other two. Held a TT33 or Tok the other day and very nice, and assume kind of like a 1908...if they only were condition 1 drop safe guns they were great size weight carry guns in effective enough calibers way back when. The PPU Tok JHP expands and Penetrates well, in a modern gun that would have been cool when that cartridge was brought in on the cheap.

I should have bid on a very rare Japanese 38 Revo a couple months ago but it was getting higher than I was ready to go
Shooting and owning enjoyment wise just in 380
would likely go 84, 230, 1934 it sounds like though I love the lines of the HSC

.32 makes less sense, but a PP, 1903, 1935, hsc, Mauser, Ortgies, 81 seem all like great guns to own and that's a big .32 rabbit hole...ammo more expensive but some of them can be bought a still decent prices...

[Outpost75]

The best.32s are the double stack Berettas and the SIG P230 fed Euro Heavy (77-grain) ball. If OK with handoads assemble 93-grain FMJ .30 Luger, 7.62x25 Combloc steel core pulls or .309" diameter Hornady XTO at 0.96 OAL with 3 grains of AutoComp.

[Ghost Dog]

SIG P230 and 232 are more durable than Walther PP and PPk. No issues.

Purists do not care for the powder metal parts in the P232 but having used both I have zero concerns. Either are more durable than Walthers.

Well, you convinced me earlier to watch all of them...
In 380
Do they feed JHPs ok? either xtps or gold dots would work for me though with Gold Dot data Dutch loading with FMJ alternating kinda sorta makes sense . It would be a decent getting older carry gun for me, though again micro9s are light and likely recoil about the same if not less.
How hard is shooting 50 rounds on the hands? I do need to start thinking about these things...
I'd honestly be more likely to carry in the future a 230 or 84 then a snub as a belt gun due to capacity


Also, millions of .32s around the world for a very long time...
how come we never heard much about rimlock issues way back then
Are you telling me all the fmj made in all the countries all had a more uniformly long OAL before
I know the shorter later jhps can be a problem but still...
Was anyone writing about rimlock jams in 32s

My keyboard is malfing and so is my brain....goodnight

[Outpost75]

They feed JHP if ctg. OAL exceeds 0.95".

Prefer flat nosed FMJ to ensure adequate penetration over 14" in calibrated gel.

[Outpost75]

Rimlock in .32 ACP is an issue in short rounds less than 0.95" which permit rounds to shuffle in the stack.

If cartridge OAL exceeds 0.95" there is no issue.

[Ghost Dog]

They feed JHP if ctg. OAL exceeds 0.95".

Prefer flat nosed FMJ to ensure adequate penetration over 14" in calibrated gel.

out of curiosity who makes flat nose FMJ in .380 besides Winchester, I don't handload and wouldn't carry with them if I did

Is there one of the Euro ones that make a hot flat nose 380

My Ps and ? barely working excuse me keyboard malfing

[Outpost75]

Winchester is my carry load.. Bullet shape is more important than the velocity.

In .32 ACP the FNB 74- grain Euro load

[Ghost Dog]

Nice Thank you.
I would think Hydrashok Deep, then XTPs would go deep enough if function in 380. Gold Dot data is pretty good, likely good for a front shot, but questionable area on Pen. So I feel you on the Winchester Flat Nose...

Thank you,

[Outpost75]

Nice Thank you.
I would think Hydrashok Deep, then XTPs would go deep enough if function in 380. Gold Dot data is pretty good, likely good for a front shot, but questionable area on Pen. So I feel you on the Winchester Flat Nose...

Thank you,

In .32 ACP and .380 I prefer FMJ because JHP bullets which are fragile enough to expand from barrels shorter than 3 inches fail to provide adequate penetration . Many of the common JHP loads do not feed reliably and in .32 ACP are prone to rimlock if cartridge OAL is less than 0.95".

Real Italian Fiocchi FMJ gives 985 fps in the M1934 and over 1000 fps in the P230. The Winchester 95 flatnosed FMJ is a reliable feeder which gives adequate penetration, despite lower velocity than the Euro loads.

[Moped]

I'm going to again reiterate that blowback 380s are generally not pleasant to shoot. Both women I had shoot my P232SL refused to even finish the magazine. This was the SL model, which is heavier than the aluminum frame version you're interested in. That version will be even more unpleasant.

They're an objectively terrible choice to give a person with small hands/low grip strength.

This!!! Over the years, I've owned several .380s. I found the SIG P230 and the Walther PPK/s (which I still own) to be the two most painfully recoiling pistols I have ever shot. I've never shot more than a couple of mags at one time, out of either of them. I have a Turkish made clone of the of the original Beretta Cheetah, in .380, that has far more manageable recoil. Quite honestly, my Ruger LCP Max is even more pleasant to take to the range for an extended shooting session and to carry, when dress requires a smaller pistol.

I am thinking of purchasing a replacement barrel in .32ACP for the Turkish "Cheetah", along with new .32ACP mags, as I am also very intrigued with the .32ACP.

Another option would be to find and purchase a Czech made VZ50 or 70 in .32ACP. Those are also still pretty easy to find and somewhat of a clone to the Walther PP series.

[TGS]

This!!! Over the years, I've owned several .380s. I found the SIG P230 and the Walther PPK/s (which I still own) to be the two most painfully recoiling pistols I have ever shot. I've never shot more than a couple of mags at one time, out of either of them. I have a Turkish made clone of the of the original Beretta Cheetah, in .380, that has far more manageable recoil. Quite honestly, my Ruger LCP Max is even more pleasant to take to the range for an extended shooting session and to carry, when dress requires a smaller pistol.

I am thinking of purchasing a replacement barrel in .32ACP for the Turkish "Cheetah", along with new .32ACP mags, as I am also very intrigued with the .32ACP.

Another option would be to find and purchase a Czech made VZ50 or 70 in .32ACP. Those are also still pretty easy to find and somewhat of a clone to the Walther PP series.

I hear ya. I would spend obscene amounts of money to convert my P232SL to .32ACP.

32ACP blowback guns are a lot of fun to shoot, and what almost every 380 blowback should be chambered with instead (and, in fact, usually were to begin with).

[Ghost Dog]

I am glad it seems like people are enjoying this thread now. Thank you for participating....

[Ghost Dog]

In 380 9 corto short 9x17 Is Recoil on a 1934 Beretta less than the p230 and PPs?

[SCCY Marshal]

The 1934 recoils less than a PPK/S.