G19- still the standard?

[breakingtime91]

I heard an interesting line from a you-tuber the other day (I know) but I thought it may lead to an interesting conversation along the lines of the sig p229.

The glock 19, for many good reasons and for many years, was the go to suggestion for a handgun that could cover ccw, home defense, and a duty role if neeed. Is it still the baseline or has it become something 2nd to some other new standard?


I think you could begin to make the argument that the Sig 365 line is becoming the go to civilian pistol. Thoughts?

[GJM]

The Glock 19 is still the single best do everything pistol. Most people want to EDC a smaller, "slimline" pistol, and the 365 family is clearly the leader of slimline pistols.

[HeavyDuty]

I still think the G19 is the gold standard pistol. Others can do the job, but a G19 is supremely capable. Big enough for duty, small enough to conceal.

The P365 universe is starting to push its way in, though.

[Joe in PNG]

Could the 365 be the long awaited 'Glock Killah'? Only time will tell.

[Trajan]

I've seen the 365 argument thrown around, but it doesn't compete anywhere near the 19 IMO. The base 365 doesn't even shoot as smoothly as a 43.

[Chefdog]

Could the 365 be the long awaited 'Glock Killah'? Only time will tell.

While I like the 365, I’d say no. I’m sure there are exceptions, but I’d bet the house that the vast majority of people will shoot faster, more accurately and get better reliability and durability from a 19. The mere fact that we’re still having these types of discussions 35 years after its introduction is evidence that it is still the default answer to so many “which gun” questions IMO.

[camel]

I like the grip of a Glock 19 and Glock 26 in all generations. I can pretty much cover anything I need with those. But I’m also not performance chasing at this point.

[gato naranja]

I choose to be outside these two tents (G19 and P365), but I won't piss into them. The G19 Gen 5 MOS does so many things acceptably well that I think it is still the yardstick. The P365 - depending on guise - is much more concealable (and has a manual safety option that I think is a plus). Both are simple, easy to care for, optics ready, acceptably accurate, and rugged enough for the average user; neither of them needs to be dicked with to get the job done.

[centex]

The G19 is still the best do it all pistol (and I own 2x as many P365 variants vs. G19s).

[Polecat]

Pretty equal mix of 43x to 365. Glock could do better if they redesigned the 43 a bit, tad longer tad shorter bit wider with metal mag!

[Noah]

As someone who loves Glocks, especially double stack Glocks, and has carried a G19 a lot… the G19 is honestly no longer relevant as a carry gun for regular people compared to thinner options with equivalent capacity.

A G19 is still a great gun if you are willing to carry it and can conceal it, and it’s great for a gun you can both compete with and carry, but it just doesn’t carry as well in nice clothes or tee shirts as smaller options. Smaller Guns like the 365XL have finally caught up to the G19 (or very close) in terms of capacity, reliability, durability, and support.

You either have to be a big guy, live in a cold climate, or be really dedicated to carrying the larger gun for a G19 to actually make sense from a concealment to capability perspective.

For me, if I can *actually* conceal a G19 while chasing kids and doing things and walking in the wind (IE flannel season), then it’s just as easy to carry a 34. If I want to actually conceal in a tee shirt, I need to go to smaller gun and even better, Engima deep carry with the grip at the belt line.

I’ve been carrying G19 and larger guns in tee shirts for years, but it takes constant attention to the drape of my shirt etc which is in hindsight probably an obvious tell, and impossible with kids haha

For someone with an easier time concealing, it might make more sense. It’s definitely not the obvious “best compromise” available that it was for decades.


Since I can’t make peace with a no safety 365XL and thumb safeties don’t work for me at all, I’m most carrying a 43X with an SCD. A 365 is better on paper, but it’s a compromise. Without a reliable 15 round mag, the G42 almost makes more sense than the 43X. If I could find an SCD for my 42, it might replace the 43X.

A 43X frame like 1/4” shorter in the grip with a 42 slide and high capacity mag would be a superb carry gun to me.

[1Rangemaster]

I heard an interesting line from a you-tuber the other day (I know) but I thought it may lead to an interesting conversation along the lines of the sig p229.

The glock 19, for many good reasons and for many years, was the go to suggestion for a handgun that could cover ccw, home defense, and a duty role if neeed. Is it still the baseline or has it become something 2nd to some other new standard?


I think you could begin to make the argument that the Sig 365 line is becoming the go to civilian pistol. Thoughts?

Your question covers several aspects: concealment, home defense and duty if necessary. My reply is "yes" if one considers the applications you specified. Maybe someone can comment, but I am not aware of any organization that issues the 365 as a primary duty gun-but I could be wrong.
This is PF, so many have their preferences. I prefer the G19MOS with P2 ACRO amd a WML. Sometimes I dismount the light if I'm shooting a daytime match.Occasionally I'll put an iron sighted slide if I put the 19 in an ankle holster for a long drive.Others may say they can do that with the 365-ok, fine. But as a general issue pistol, there's a lot to be said for the 19.
Regarding a manual safety; over the past several weeks, I've been volunteering to run citizens through some shooting for their defensive aspirations to include themselves, family and fellow church members. These are good people but not the dedicated practitioners we have here. Out of around 10 who had lever safeties, e.g.,M&Ps, 1911s, a Ruger 9mm, etc, one-only one had trained to engage/disengage the safety. For the others, I'd say G19. JMO, etc.

[Nick B]

I had a Gen3 19 and a Gen5 19. But after trying a G45 the two 19’s were sold off and replaced with G45’s . To me the G45 just felt and shot better .

[Clusterfrack]

Compared to a Glock 19, lots of guns are easier to shoot well and conceal. What makes Glocks the "AR-15 of handguns" to me is they combine reliability, durability, simplicity, ease of service and troubleshooting, parts availability, industry support, and magazine compatibility with larger Glocks. As well, the Glock platform has a long history, so you know what you're getting and that the model will be around long term.

[Totem Polar]

I had a Gen3 19 and a Gen5 19. But after trying a G45 the two 19’s were sold off and replaced with G45’s . To me the G45 just felt and shot better .

Funny you say that. I don’t have a Gen 5 19 any more, but I do have a 45. And a 17… and a 26 or two… and a 43… :rolleyes:

[HeavyDuty]

Funny you say that. I don’t have a Gen 5 19 any more, but I do have a 45. And a 17… and a 26 or two… and a 43… :rolleyes:

This is the direction I’m heading due to wrist issues.

[FNFAN]

If I were doing striker guns at this point I’d do the G26 MOS with a few spares. As it is I have 4 19’s and a Gen2 23 two of which are kept off site so I don’t have to fly with checked baggage. The thin-line guns are very squirmy for me, so I’ve never embraced the package. I was just about to pick up a standard G43 (as in posting “I’ll take it” on another forum) and I read HCM’s post discussing G43’s. Decided to stay with my Gen 1 PPS for ultra concealable.

[revchuck38]

I had a Gen3 19 and a Gen5 19. But after trying a G45 the two 19’s were sold off and replaced with G45’s . To me the G45 just felt and shot better .

My first Glock was a G45. My second was a G19G5. Both have SCDs, and the 19 has a Grip Anchor. I really like the G45, but the 19 w/Grip Anchor feels better and is the one that gets carried. I'm comfortable carrying a K frame so the two additional rounds in the G45 are a non-issue for me.

That's why they make different versions. :)

[Lost River]

Many are only looking at it from a very limited scope of "concealability for them, in their environment, and lifestyle choices"

The question was asked if it was still "the go to" suggestion for a handgun that could cover ccw, home defense, and a duty role

For a handgun that can be used as a duty weapon, as well as fill the role as a CCW piece and Home Defense, I would say that the Glock 19 is still the gold standard. You may find a certain gun that does one thing better, such as CCW, another that is better at the role of being a duty gun, but for a handgun that can do all those roles and do them actually quite well, I would say you really are going to have a hard time saying that the G19 does not do those roles quite nicely.

I have used the G19 as a duty gun. Carried one as a CCW piece, and used it for HD, and I would say that it is a very effective tool. There is a reason why it has been tremendously popular with some parts of the military and .gov world.

Funny thing is that the G19 is my "small" gun (semi auto wise). I don't carry a P365 or a G43, or any of the micro compacts. Due to some events, I ended up adopting a thought process of "what is the smallest gun that I am willing to get into a standup gunfight against 1 and possibly 2 armed bad guys with. Performance wise, that answer has been the Glock 19. Any smaller, like the G26, and I just don't shoot anywhere near as fast or as accurately. My XL size hands have difficulty with the little gun. The G19 is where I found my comfortable minimum.

Others may see it differently.

[JonInWA]

Yep.

Best, Jon

[Cool Breeze]

I will add another yes vote. I think 2 other great "features" that rarely get mentioned are it's weight (for it's category) and cost of mags. I'm almost positive every g19 competitor is heavier and if there is one that is lighter it's only by an ounce.

[WDR]

Many are only looking at it from a very limited scope of "concealability for them, in their environment, and lifestyle choices"

The question was asked if it was still "the go to" suggestion for a handgun that could cover ccw, home defense, and a duty role

Everyone tends to look at things through their own prisms for sure. Upthread a comment was made that you had to be a bigger guy to conceal a Glock 19... which IME, isn't true. I'm not particularly tall, nor big (170lbs if I've eaten a nice steak that day), and I've concealed a Glock 19 of one sort or another for nearly 20 years. I generally don't wear fitted T-shirts, but I don't dress like a slob or wear huge "gun burkas" (hat tip to Tamara) ... though you'll usually find me with some sort of patterned button down shirt in summer or flannel in the cooler months. Proper holsters, belts, and clothing selection makes concealing a G19 fairly easy.

I'm also not really willing to compromise shooting a smaller more easily concealable gun, like a 365. For most folks, they will shoot a Glock 19 better than that smaller gun, and that includes the bigger 365 variants. For some folks, that works, and their trade off comes out different. I will say I can shoot my G26 almost as well as a G19... and sometimes carry it instead of the bigger gun. But if I had to choose one or the other as my only pistol I'd take the 19 every time. I've shot a few 365 variants, and for me, they don't shoot as well as the old standby 19. That is absolutely not a knock on the 365, as they've turned out to be pretty awesome guns that work for a lot of folks. They fill a niche that a lot of folks think they need, and Sig will continue to sell a crap ton of them.

There are guns that are better for specific things, and some folks may have a preference for some other specific pistol, but I still firmly believe that the Glock 19 is firmly top of the heap as far as a general purpose jack of all trades sidearm for general issue to a wide variety of folks, when you take all it's qualities into account.

Is it the best gun ever or "Perfection" ? No. But its pretty damn good, and can be pressed into service and put to good use for probably 80-90% of uses... especially if one is willing to learn the quirks of shooting a Glock well.

[SwampDweller]

I still think it’s the gold standard. The P365, IMO, is on the ragged edge of reliability and is less forgiving of grip, lack of lubrication, and not keeping up with mag spring changes. The G19 is also easier to shoot well, especially under stress.

[G19Fan]

I've seen the 365 argument thrown around, but it doesn't compete anywhere near the 19 IMO. The base 365 doesn't even shoot as smoothly as a 43.

Imo a base p365 shoots better than a g43 by a mile

[Trajan]

Imo a base p365 shoots better than a g43 by a mile

Yeah I would have thought so too, but a few months ago my biddy brought his out and 3 of us all agreed the G43 with TTI +2s shot better. This last weekend he brought his out and I had my 43x frame on it and we again both agreed the 43x shot better. It is a bigger gun though.

I think his 365 is stock. Has some type of amerigloish sights on it. My 43/43x is stock as well, but has a Dawson adjustable rear and fiber front.

[WDR]

I will add another yes vote. I think 2 other great "features" that rarely get mentioned are it's weight (for it's category) and cost of mags. I'm almost positive every g19 competitor is heavier and if there is one that is lighter it's only by an ounce.

For sure. As a reference my 5 shot 3" S&W 60-10 .357 J-frame revolver weighs roughly the same as my G19.5 w/RMR... fully loaded the Glock might be a little heavier, but it's also 3X the capacity, plus one. Size wise, they are similar. The .357 may carry easier, and be slightly more concealable. Not that a revolver is a competitor, but I've often made the comparison between those two guns in my head when deciding if it's a revolver day or not. The decisive power of the .357 only tips that scale when I'm heading to the hills or deserts. And you'll often find me packing the Glock anyway. The 19 just hits a sweet spot shootablity, capacity, concealability, durability, weather resistance, and utility wise. It may be a soulless piece of plastic and metal, but it's a really good one.

Glock mags have always been economical, and even Magpuls efforts to edge into that specific chunk of market have not always been as successful as they had probably hoped. I can't think of a major "Glock killer" that has mags cheaper, or the same price as a basic 19 or 17 magazine.They are not the smallest/thinnest, but they are semi-indesructible and most importantly they WORK... really really well. Continued backwards compatibility of most all Glock magazines, and the ability to use the larger mags across the smaller guns really is a good thing too. There are some exceptions in the slimline end (for the love of Pete 43/43X/48 WTF).

[Redhat]

I asked myself...If not the G19, then what?

Couldn't really come up with anything that could fill those 3 roles better.

[KevH]

Yes.

[G19Fan]

I still think it’s the gold standard. The P365, IMO, is on the ragged edge of reliability and is less forgiving of grip, lack of lubrication, and not keeping up with mag spring changes. The G19 is also easier to shoot well, especially under stress.

For what it is worth my training p365 is on 20k rounds no cleaning last 9k rounds. No mag or recoil spring changes no issues (last 20k rounds)

However my competition p365 extractor broke at 2k rounds. So go figure.

[ECVMatt]

Just one person's perspective...

Once I decided I was going to put my 43 and 43x on my permit, I really began to train with them. It did not take me long to realize that the 43 is just too small for my hands. It was very difficult to get a good grip and if I did not, I would get sloppy hits. I soon figured out that my 43 with +2's was the same length as my 43X so I began to focus on it. I ended up having similar experiences with the 43x with the added bonus of activating the slide lock with my trigger finger (I am a lefty) if I was not able to achieve a solid grip. Even with a solid grip, the gun is just too thin for my hands. It was all way too much drama for not much gained.

I am lucky in that I can conceal a 26 or 19 in shorts and a teeshirt. All of this together led me back to my 26/19 for daily carry.

As I have stated before, I am more comfortable with a full-sized duty style gun that with the compact. I want a bigger trigger pin, extractor, ejector, and locking block to name a few. I used to feel like I was in a shrinking group, but lately I have been noticing some mission creep on the little guys. The Sig has the 365 Macro and Springfield has the Hellcat Pro. Folks are adding compensators onto the slide to help the compact guns become more controllable. Now the compact guns are not so compact anymore. You end up with a gun that is similar in size to a full sized gun, but loaded with all the little gun parts. I am not knocking any of the compact guns and I love the fact that we have so many models to choose from. How a gun feels in the hand is one of the most important attributes, especially to new shooters. I think these are great times for pistol shooters.

Well back to the Glock 19. It has been proven all over the world by lots of different folks, friends and foes alike. It is robust, accurate, and balanced. What is lacks in aesthetics in more that makes up for in ascetics. So how does this all go back to the 19? Well I guess it is still the standard for me.

[SW CQB 45]

my main duty ride is 1911 .45 acp.

my main off duty carry is a G19 built in 2016, brand new (back then) G4 frame and early serial number G4 upper.
the finger grooves were ground off and light texture applied for additional grip. High front strap. (thank you COLD BORE CUSTOM)
It was sent for a direct fit RDS for small button Holosun (kinda high for today's standards) / He also machined front slide serrations. (L&M Precision Gunworks)
and the action has some judicious polishing. (me)
Langdon do dad as my hand will trap the mag, on reloads without it.
It has quite a few rounds through with zero issues.

I bought a G48 to somewhat fill its role in a thinner capacity.

I much prefer the G19.

I am seriously thinking about GPT for this dude.

https://i.imgur.com/OO7qAAYh.jpg

[Noah]

Everyone tends to look at things through their own prisms for sure. Upthread a comment was made that you had to be a bigger guy to conceal a Glock 19... which IME, isn't true. I'm not particularly tall, nor big (170lbs if I've eaten a nice steak that day), and I've concealed a Glock 19 of one sort or another for nearly 20 years. I generally don't wear fitted T-shirts, but I don't dress like a slob or wear huge "gun burkas" (hat tip to Tamara) ... though you'll usually find me with some sort of patterned button down shirt in summer or flannel in the cooler months. Proper holsters, belts, and clothing selection makes concealing a G19 fairly easy.

I'm also not really willing to compromise shooting a smaller more easily concealable gun, like a 365. For most folks, they will shoot a Glock 19 better than that smaller gun, and that includes the bigger 365 variants. For some folks, that works, and their trade off comes out different. I will say I can shoot my G26 almost as well as a G19... and sometimes carry it instead of the bigger gun. But if I had to choose one or the other as my only pistol I'd take the 19 every time. I've shot a few 365 variants, and for me, they don't shoot as well as the old standby 19. That is absolutely not a knock on the 365, as they've turned out to be pretty awesome guns that work for a lot of folks. They fill a niche that a lot of folks think they need, and Sig will continue to sell a crap ton of them.

There are guns that are better for specific things, and some folks may have a preference for some other specific pistol, but I still firmly believe that the Glock 19 is firmly top of the heap as far as a general purpose jack of all trades sidearm for general issue to a wide variety of folks, when you take all it's qualities into account.

Is it the best gun ever or "Perfection" ? No. But its pretty damn good, and can be pressed into service and put to good use for probably 80-90% of uses... especially if one is willing to learn the quirks of shooting a Glock well.

I’m 6 foot 1, 165. Your “button down with a pattern” only proves my point- my post was about getting actual concealment with a tee shirt on. If I’m bearing a patterned button down I can carry my G34 just fine, and have carried 19s for years.

[BillSWPA]

If we are talking about actual concealment on a daily basis, and we recommend a Glock 19 to a new shooter, we are not only telling them to buy a gun, but also telling them they are going to have to buy a new wardrobe. All of their pants will now need an extra 1.5 inches in the waistband. All of their shirts, sweaters, etc. may now have to be a bit bigger.

I prefer to keep things as simple as possible for a new gun owner. A P365 can provide a 3 finger grip with either 12 round magazines or 10 round magazines with the finger extension. The flat base pad 10’round magazines make the gun small enough for pocket carry, and will help the gun really disappear IWB.

[RJ]

A 19 has major pluses of reliability, accuracy and ubiquity. It's made of simple materials, and you can take it completely apart with a ballpoint pen. You can get spare mags at the corner store in Cody Wyoming. It remains a fantastic do it all option. Still comes with plastic dovetail protectors (kudos Tamara for that useful phrase) and staple gun trigger though.

I think it comes down to what Lost River mentioned: if you include "duty" use then I'd say I can't think of something better or more all around than a Glock 19 for CCW, plus home defense, plus occasional duty use.

But if you are like me, a .civ geezer, the P365 series (all sizes, P365 / X / XL / Macro) is just better all-around than the Glock 19. I've had six Glocks, and no longer own any of them. At this point for striker 9mm I just have two P365 FCUs and a couple slides, and swap them around as needed. Primary carry config is a P365X (that get's converted to a P365 from time to time) and primary HD/competition is a P365 X Macro.

But if you told me all I could have was a Glock 19 MOS Gen 5, I'd be ok with that. *

* Funny story of how much of a moron I am: I was taking my Tim Herron class last year in Miami, and drove the 3 hours to my hotel Friday night. I realized when I got there I had left my Glock 34 at home. Eek. So I took the class with my carry Glock 19. I groused some to Tim I was using my carry gun for class; he quite rightly said to me it didn't matter, my gun was not my problem and I needed to get on with shooting. After class Saturday I cleaned it, then loaded it up with carry ammo to go the grocery store for food. And then shot the class the next day. And drove home from Miami with it. So, yeah, a Glock 19 works for sure. :)

117331

[Texaspoff]

my main duty ride is 1911 .45 acp.

my main off duty carry is a G19 built in 2016, brand new (back then) G4 frame and early serial number G4 upper.
the finger grooves were ground off and light texture applied for additional grip. High front strap. (thank you COLD BORE CUSTOM)
It was sent for a direct fit RDS for small button Holosun (kinda high for today's standards) / He also machined front slide serrations. (L&M Precision Gunworks)
and the action has some judicious polishing. (me)
Langdon do dad as my hand will trap the mag, on reloads without it.
It has quite a few rounds through with zero issues.

I bought a G48 to somewhat fill its role in a thinner capacity.

I much prefer the G19.

I am seriously thinking about GPT for this dude.

https://i.imgur.com/OO7qAAYh.jpg


Your very welcome, and yes I'm a huge fan of the 19 myself. Working on a new 19.5 build for me, and carrying one of my other 19.5. Just swapped out a Timney and thew in the new V2 GPT with a Ranger Proof Vex, same as Johnny Glocks, they make them for him. I believe this may be my favorite trigger setup to date.

https://i.imgur.com/63WXhkHh.jpg





TXPO

[cosermann]

One thing a lot of people seem to forget about when it comes to "shootability," is how that translates into how much you'll train and/or practice.

I coordinated a private class for a dozen folks a couple of years ago and a young lady showed up with a G43 because it "fit her hand."

After only a few strings I could see she was struggling with the snappiness, so I loaned her a G19 and holster for the rest of the class. It was like night and day.

Seems to me if someone is buying their first handgun, and likely ONLY handgun at that point, it should be something they can and will train/practice with or they'll never develop the skills/proficiency they'll need if things ever go south. The G19 and other midsize 9s provide that. (Full size revolvers do too, but this is the semi-auto sub forum.)

Otherwise they just end up with a lucky charm to carry around to make themselves feel safer.

[mmc45414]

I think The Standard has a lot to do with the Four Inch / Fifteen Rounds / ~24oz form factor combination being a do anything sweet spot. And they seemed to have that to themselves long enough that everybody just wants one, like a Civic or Tacoma.

Now things are a little fuzzy, since you can get all that now, only slimmer.

[Lost River]

My primary G19 that gets used most often is one that has been used a good bit. I found that it has served well in the HD role too, as I simply keep it close by with a light attached, along with a regular white light for appropriate uses.

https://i.imgur.com/FljIduoh.jpg

The factory 24 round mags are just the right size, as they are not too long and unwieldy, yet long enough that I would expect that they should provide sufficient capacity for most needs. Loaded with 25 rounds of 148 grain +P hardcast flatpoints, the little G19 is a fairly decent little HD tool.

https://i.imgur.com/NBnYv9hh.jpg

[Chuck Whitlock]

The question was asked if it was still "the go to" suggestion for a handgun that could cover ccw, home defense, and a duty role

For a handgun that can be used as a duty weapon, as well as fill the role as a CCW piece and Home Defense, I would say that the Glock 19 is still the gold standard. You may find a certain gun that does one thing better, such as CCW, another that is better at the role of being a duty gun, but for a handgun that can do all those roles and do them actually quite well, I would say you really are going to have a hard time saying that the G19 does not do those roles quite nicely.



I asked myself...If not the G19, then what?

Couldn't really come up with anything that could fill those 3 roles better.

For those 3 roles, it is still the gold standard.

There may well be perfectly sound reasons for someone to deviate from that standard, and for those specific reasons choose otherwise, such as an M&P9c 2.0, or a 365XL, or a 1911, et. al. given their particular circumstances.

I personally carried a Gen3 G23 (later with a 9mm barrel) for ~15 years. but towards the end began to realize that it was actually on the large side of the scale for me (adding a GFA made the trigger unreachable for me). So I found that guns with smaller grips and shorter trigger reach were better for me, but that doesn't change the standard.

So, if the G19 is not the answer, there should be very specific reasons why it is not, many of which have been mentioned above.

[LockedBreech]

For me my G5 G19 remains the midsize answer simply because I haven't been able to trust Sig enough to fully pour myself into the P365 universe yet. I have a P365-MS (well, my wife does, but she is terrible about carrying it so I end up snagging it more than her), with an eye on a P365XL-OR or Macro, but I still seem to see more QC reports with Sigs than Glocks. Perhaps just a function of popularity, but it has been a mental block with me. I will continue to get past it as I continue to shoot my (wife's) P365, which has been perfect thus far. At present it gets fairly little carry time, with me opting for more more-proven Shield Plus. But that may change. I do prefer most things about the P365, I just don't trust it quite as much.

I fully acknowledge my hangups aren't really logic-based and the solution is dumping about 2,000 rounds through a P365 until I get past the mental block and form that trust connection. It's cheesy and perhaps sentimental, but I think trust in your tools is important.

As an aside, I consider the M&P 2.0 Compact every bit as viable an omni-answer as the G19. Identically sized, identically reliable, identically shootable. At least in my experience.

My go-to for the last few months has been the CZ P10S, and if that holds up over time the CZ P10 S / C will join that omni-answer category too. We are in an age of plenty for midsize multipurpose guns.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I used to carry a 19 or my 26. The latter was a tad easier to conceal. However, if we ever get rid of mag bans, I would consider a Gen 5 19. I have no interest in experimenting with Glock clones. The slim line guns didn't appeal to me when renting, with a floppy cover garment - the different was trivial for a 19. A 17 that's different.

Currently, I have 42 on my belt as I'm going in the basement to dry fire in practice for a small carry gun match. No pocket draws at a match. Those fast draw guys would have a ball with pocket carry.

[NETim]

If a G17 didn't work so well for me and my routine, the 19 would be the next choice for "all around" duty. I like the slightly longer grip of the 17 vs the 19. The additional slide length isn't that much to contend with for carry duty IMHO.

[mmc45414]

I personally carried a Gen3 G23 (later with a 9mm barrel) for ~15 years. but towards the end began to realize that it was actually on the large side of the scale for me (adding a GFA made the trigger unreachable for me). So I found that guns with smaller grips and shorter trigger reach were better for me, but that doesn't change the standard.

As an aside, I consider the M&P 2.0 Compact every bit as viable an omni-answer as the G19. Identically sized, identically reliable, identically shootable. At least in my experience.
When S&W eventually released the 4in/15rnd Goldilocks was when I (Gasp!!!) sold all of my Glocks.

[BobM]

When S&W eventually released the 4in/15rnd Goldilocks was when I (Gasp!!!) sold all of my Glocks.

I was issued an M&P40 in 2006 until retiring in 2021. Prior to retirement I’d seriously considered getting 3 or four 19s and maybe a 44 to use. Once the 2.0 Compact came out I ended up with one each in 9mm and 40 an abandoned the G19 idea. I know have five 9mms (two with safety levers) and two 40s.
Lately though I’ve more often been carrying the Shield Plus on my own time and the 2.0 Compact when working at the courthouse.

[JAH 3rd]

If a G17 didn't work so well for me and my routine, the 19 would be the next choice for "all around" duty. I like the slightly longer grip of the 17 vs the 19. The additional slide length isn't that much to contend with for carry duty IMHO.

I'm going through that thought process with my Beretta PX4. I have the compact version, but my pinkie wraps around the front of the magazine floorplate. And it is not causing any problems. I am contemplating the full-size version for the slightly longer grip. The compact is a 9mm and the full-size would be as well. Truth be known, I am just rationalizing to justify another purchase.

[gato naranja]

I'm going through that thought process with my Beretta PX4. I have the compact version, but my pinkie wraps around the front of the magazine floorplate. And it is not causing any problems. I am contemplating the full-size version for the slightly longer grip. The compact is a 9mm and the full-size would be as well. Truth be known, I am just rationalizing to justify another purchase.

In retrospect, I let the PX4 compact's grip length bug me far more than I should have.

[GJM]

I just stopped by the LGS to pick something up, and asked them about the 365 vs Glock pistol sales. They said they sell six 365 pistols for every Glock 19 and 10 365 pistols for every 43/48 they sell.

[Chuck Whitlock]

As an aside, I consider the M&P 2.0 Compact every bit as viable an omni-answer as the G19. Identically sized, identically reliable, identically shootable. At least in my experience.



When S&W eventually released the 4in/15rnd Goldilocks was when I (Gasp!!!) sold all of my Glocks.

If I won a coupon or raffle for a free pistol, and my choices were between a G19 and an M&Pc 2.0, I would not hesitate one moment in picking the Smith. If it didn't have the MS, I'd add it. I'd really dig an aluminum frame with the MS!


Come to think of it, my twin P250c's with WC grip modules are in this same envelope (3.9"/15rnd), and are hammer-fired DAO to boot!. Trigger reach is just a tad long....I wish I could find a couple of short-reach triggers (SIG used to make them). The main reason I don't carry it anymore is that the slides are so much fatter than my 1911's or BHP. I do still carry it in uniform, though.

[Beat Trash]

In my house, the Glock 19, especially the gen5, is still the standard.

Even if I decide to look into something like a Sig 365 Macro, I don't see my Glock 19's going anywhere.

[WDR]

I’m 6 foot 1, 165. Your “button down with a pattern” only proves my point- my post was about getting actual concealment with a tee shirt on. If I’m bearing a patterned button down I can carry my G34 just fine, and have carried 19s for years.

I *can* conceal it under a T-shirt... but its not optimal concealment gear. Mission drives the gear train. I'm willing to "dress around the gun" when I have to. Sometimes getting made matters more than wearing fitted clothing. And sometimes you have to use a smaller gun and deal with the consequences. Concealment is just one factor here. But that is neither here nor there because PLENTY of folks can conceal a Glock 19 just fine... And the question at hand was if it was king of the hill as far as a "one gun to do it all" option. I think it still is.

<shrugs>

I disagree that the P365 is the new Glock 19, simply because it's easier to conceal under a T-shirt. IMHO, the P365 series guns are not "duty" guns, simply because they are not "full size" frames so they don't really belong "there". Not that they are not good guns, or couldn't be pressed into duty uses, especially in a concealed role. But that's like, my opinion, man. :cool:

[WDR]

I just stopped by the LGS to pick something up, and asked them about the 365 vs Glock pistol sales. They said they sell six 365 pistols for every Glock 19 and 10 365 pistols for every 43/48 they sell.

I believe it. Sig really has kicked Glocks ass on the 9mm "slim" guns, both in form/capacity, and marketing them. It doesn't hurt that they seem to work pretty dang well, and are shootable for lots of folks.


When S&W eventually released the 4in/15rnd Goldilocks was when I (Gasp!!!) sold all of my Glocks.

The M&P, and the Sig 320, both would be top competitors to knock the Glock 19 off its pillar. If the M&P 1.0 9mm's hadn't had the accuracy issues, and the Sig 320's hadn't had the drop safety issue, I think either one could have really taken the spotlight.

[Noah]

I *can* conceal it under a T-shirt... but its not optimal concealment gear. Mission drives the gear train. I'm willing to "dress around the gun" when I have to. Sometimes getting made matters more than wearing fitted clothing. And sometimes you have to use a smaller gun and deal with the consequences. Concealment is just one factor here. But that is neither here nor there because PLENTY of folks can conceal a Glock 19 just fine... And the question at hand was if it was king of the hill as far as a "one gun to do it all" option. I think it still is.

<shrugs>

I disagree that the P365 is the new Glock 19, simply because it's easier to conceal under a T-shirt. IMHO, the P365 series guns are not "duty" guns, simply because they are not "full size" frames so they don't really belong "there". Not that they are not good guns, or couldn't be pressed into duty uses, especially in a concealed role. But that's like, my opinion, man. :cool:

I guess I am not thinking from a duty gun perspective. A 365 or other slimline is not a duty gun. I’m thinking from only civilian concealed carry and home defense role, and range training/light competition. All open carry applications (duty or otherwise) just aren’t relevant to me and a lot of other people for defensive use. . For all “daily concealed self defense tasks” I think the slimlines make the most sense for many people. They’re not an OWB duty gun or USPSA gun, but there’s nothing wrong with either of those things. I can’t imagine recommending someone try to conceal a full width double stack without it completely revamping their wardrobe.

If it’s also a USPSA gun and/or duty gun, double stack Glocks (including a 19) are my pick. A Macro really blurs the lines but I’m just an SCD or hammer stickler. Don’t like safeties (for me) or “naked” strikers.

117370

[G19Fan]

I *can* conceal it under a T-shirt... but its not optimal concealment gear. Mission drives the gear train. I'm willing to "dress around the gun" when I have to. Sometimes getting made matters more than wearing fitted clothing. And sometimes you have to use a smaller gun and deal with the consequences. Concealment is just one factor here. But that is neither here nor there because PLENTY of folks can conceal a Glock 19 just fine... And the question at hand was if it was king of the hill as far as a "one gun to do it all" option. I think it still is.

<shrugs>

I disagree that the P365 is the new Glock 19, simply because it's easier to conceal under a T-shirt. IMHO, the P365 series guns are not "duty" guns, simply because they are not "full size" frames so they don't really belong "there". Not that they are not good guns, or couldn't be pressed into duty uses, especially in a concealed role. But that's like, my opinion, man. :cool:

Most ccw doesn't need a duty gun

I do have seperate comp.and training vs carry guns

[WDR]

I guess I am not thinking from a duty gun perspective. A 365 or other slimline is not a duty gun. I’m thinking from only civilian concealed carry and home defense role, and range training/light competition. All open carry applications (duty or otherwise) just aren’t relevant to me and a lot of other people for defensive use. . For all “daily concealed self defense tasks” I think the slimlines make the most sense for many people. They’re not an OWB duty gun or USPSA gun, but there’s nothing wrong with either of those things. I can’t imagine recommending someone try to conceal a full width double stack without it completely revamping their wardrobe.

"Duty" was part of the premise of this thread, but I think we all at least consider concealment a lot more seriously "here" than your average joe "out there" so we trend to drift that way and weight that requirement more than the other two (Duty and Home Defense). Clearly, a smaller gun might make sense for most folks to carry. My argument is that it falls a bit into the "carrying a gun is supposed to be comforting, not comfortable" sort of mindset. I'm a bit like Lost River in that I want to carry a gun that'd I'd be comfortable getting into a real fight with, so I default to bigger guns, more ammo, easier to shoot well. If I can manage to conceal a Glock 19, most folks could do it as well, with minimal effort. Yes, folks might have to change their wardrobe to truly conceal and live with a Glock 19. It's a decision we all make, and thankfully there are a lot of other options out there too.

The bolded part is of course true for most folks. There is a reason the 365 sells so well. Many people buy and carry these guns a lot and shoot them very little. Not very many of them actually USE them for their intended purpose in that role. But I also think most folks would be better served with a bigger, easier to shoot gun, when the balloon goes up. They pays their money and takes their chances.

The Glock 19 can be shoehorned into duty, concealment, and home defense use, and serve almost equally well in any of those roles (again, you might have to wear that button up)... the same can't be said for the P365, or my 3" 60-10 J-frame .357, or a 6" Model 29. Any of them could do in a pinch, and I'd give the 365 the nod over either of the other two, but a Glock 19 still makes the most sense as a jack of all trades.

[mmc45414]

I just stopped by the LGS to pick something up, and asked them about the 365 vs Glock pistol sales. They said they sell six 365 pistols for every Glock 19 and 10 365 pistols for every 43/48 they sell.
The interesting but unobtainable data point(s) would be to know how many of those 6/1 365 buyers already have a G19 and how many of those 1/6 G19 buyers are newbies.
After nearly forty years the G19 market might be slowing a bit from saturation. :cool:


I can’t imagine recommending someone try to conceal a full width double stack without it completely revamping their wardrobe.
My routine is that when I go to shoot, I carry the gun I am planning to shoot. For the past several years this has typically been one of my full size 5in M&P9s, and it is NBD to conceal. In the past this had occasionally been a 5in XD-45 (the one that held fourteen rounds...), and that was a big honker and did take a little extra effort. But that is typically one day a week, and it is simple to grab something like a Dickies shirt or fleece vest to get there and back.


There is a reason the 365 sells so well. Many people buy and carry these guns a lot and shoot them very little. Not very many of them actually USE them for their intended purpose in that role. But I also think most folks would be better served with a bigger, easier to shoot gun, when the balloon goes up. They pays their money and takes their chances.

The Glock 19 can be shoehorned into duty, concealment, and home defense use, and serve almost equally well in any of those roles (again, you might have to wear that button up)... the same can't be said for the P365, or my 3" 60-10 J-frame .357, or a 6" Model 29. Any of them could do in a pinch, and I'd give the 365 the nod over either of the other two, but a Glock 19 still makes the most sense as a jack of all trades.
Yup, the quandary is what to recommend to new people. And many of them have not done any more than a familiarity fire, and they do not know what they want or need. The majority of those people are also not going to carry anything unless they think there is a reason, so in their case they would be better off with one of the Goldilocks guns, because they can learn to shoot it easier, and when they do have the reason that urges them to get their kit on, owning one baggy shirt is not a big deal. But all of those people are going to buy something slim (or worse) and never shoot it, or go shoot it once and never shoot it again (I am looking at you, Mister LCP...). Prolly gonna carry Condition 3 also.
But in my case I have a spectrum that goes from 5in/17+1 (to and from the range), down to 4in/15+1 (going to buy something with cash from Marketplace, but was EDC), and then down to a Shield Plus (typical EDC), and prior to the Shield Plus(s) entering my life one of the J-frames got a lot more carry. But I am one of the people that shoots at least once almost every week and am comfortable with what I can accomplish with the Shield Plus (I always knew I am making big compromises with the J-frame). But somebody that might need the One Gun Standard probably doesn't have so many choices.

[rob_s]

Compared to a Glock 19, lots of guns are easier to shoot well and conceal. What makes Glocks the "AR-15 of handguns" to me is they combine reliability, durability, simplicity, ease of service and troubleshooting, parts availability, industry support, and magazine compatibility with larger Glocks. As well, the Glock platform has a long history, so you know what you're getting and that the model will be around long term.

Even if someone else were better in every internal aspect today (somehow less expensive, more modular, smaller, lighter, more accurate, easier to shoot, with greater capacity, more reliable, fewer parts, easier to takedown, both larger and smaller options that take the same mag and fit the same holsters, etc.) the legacy (parts, commonality, holsters, accessories, the aftermarket in general, market familiarity, etc.) would take decades to unravel.

[BillSWPA]

I am a slightly below average size dude who can conceal a full size 1911 under a polo style shirt when I want to do so. I can do it because every single pair of pants I own has been purchased with IWB carry in mind. Every single pair of dress slacks is also purchased taking pocket carry into account, although not for a 1911. Every time I buy a polo style shirt, jacket, or sweater, I take into account its ability to hide a gun.

Concealing the gun is not as simple as buying a baggy shirt.

The new shooter buying their first gun will get there eventually, but is not there when buying their first or second gun. Recommending a gun that they cannot hide with the clothing they currently own is a good way to ensure that they do not carry it.

[No.6]

I'm going through that thought process with my Beretta PX4. I have the compact version, but my pinkie wraps around the front of the magazine floorplate. And it is not causing any problems. I am contemplating the full-size version for the slightly longer grip. The compact is a 9mm and the full-size would be as well. Truth be known, I am just rationalizing to justify another purchase.

I keep adding this to PX4 discussions but I'll do it again :) https://www.beretta.com/en-us/product/px4-aluminum-magazine-extension-E02574 is like the 19x of the PX4 world. 2 more rounds and, particularly for those who want the bit more real estate, more grip surface. Just a couple minutes to switch (or switch back, if you don't like it).

Not that it should stop you from another PX4, but if all you want is grip area, it's $20.

[LockedBreech]

If I won a coupon or raffle for a free pistol, and my choices were between a G19 and an M&Pc 2.0, I would not hesitate one moment in picking the Smith. If it didn't have the MS, I'd add it. I'd really dig an aluminum frame with the MS!


Come to think of it, my twin P250c's with WC grip modules are in this same envelope (3.9"/15rnd), and are hammer-fired DAO to boot!. Trigger reach is just a tad long....I wish I could find a couple of short-reach triggers (SIG used to make them). The main reason I don't carry it anymore is that the slides are so much fatter than my 1911's or BHP. I do still carry it in uniform, though.

Weep for humanity that the P250 didn't get more credit when it came out. Like the 92D, it's amazing at being what it is.

[HeavyDuty]

Weep for humanity that the P250 didn't get more credit when it came out. Like the 92D, it's amazing at being what it is.

I’d still like to learn more about the P250, I remember when they were new and hit the gun rags. I know there are at least two major generations and (knowing SIG) about 32,871 running production changes. Does the P250 FCG work with the Wilson Combat grip modules?

[gc70]

The herd instinct is strong, but some recognize S&W made a better G19 with the M&P 2.0 Compact.


As an aside, I consider the M&P 2.0 Compact every bit as viable an omni-answer as the G19. Identically sized, identically reliable, identically shootable. At least in my experience.

When S&W eventually released the 4in/15rnd Goldilocks was when I (Gasp!!!) sold all of my Glocks.

Once the 2.0 Compact came out I ended up with one each in 9mm and 40 an abandoned the G19 idea.

If I won a coupon or raffle for a free pistol, and my choices were between a G19 and an M&Pc 2.0, I would not hesitate one moment in picking the Smith.

The M&P, and the Sig 320, both would be top competitors to knock the Glock 19 off its pillar. If the M&P 1.0 9mm's hadn't had the accuracy issues, and the Sig 320's hadn't had the drop safety issue, I think either one could have really taken the spotlight.

[BobM]

The herd instinct is strong, but some recognize S&W made a better G19 with the M&P 2.0 Compact.

In my case, I had several years of carrying M&Ps, plus an accumulation of holsters and magazines, and I’ve been through the armorer class twice, so I decided to stick with them.

[Hambo]

Recommending a gun that they cannot hide with the clothing they currently own is a good way to ensure that they do not carry it.

If I were recommending a gun based on body type and wardrobe, it would be a NAA mini revolver. Too fat, clothes too tight, clothes that will fall down with a G42 IWB. It's a shit show out there. I live in FL, and we are different, but there aren't many people that don't check one of those three wardrobe boxes.

[mmc45414]

The herd instinct is strong, but some recognize S&W made a better G19 with the M&P 2.0 Compact.

In my case, I had several years of carrying M&Ps, plus an accumulation of holsters and magazines, and I’ve been through the armorer class twice, so I decided to stick with them.
I am a M&P fan boy, but don't want to be a Glock hater.
If I was issued something I wouldn't worry about it, but when I had both I was grabbing a M&P when it was time to head to the range every weekend.
When I decided I wanted a Beretta 686 O/U and a Dillon SL900 to go with it I decided I really didn't need a collection of various striker guns.
And also M&Ps were a smoking good deal, I paid ~$400 for my 2.0 Compact and a year or so later they were available for $370, and I shoulda bought another one.
And I might be 320 curious, but now I am the guy that has 6-7 pistols and 10-15 (maybe closer to 20...) holsters and maybe 30-40 magazines, sooooo...... :cool:

[psalms144.1]

I have a Gen5 G19 set up with an SCS MOS and a TLR7 for two reasons. First, it's the only pistol in my shrinking stable that my wife has any interest in shooting. Secondly, it's the pistol that I believe will be most reliable for the longest time if I have to run it hard, continuously, with minimal maintenance. AND, if anything breaks, it takes 5 minutes or less to detail strip, replace parts, and reassemble.

I spend darn near no time with it, because it hurts to shoot well (amount of grip strength needed and grip angle combine to make it very uncomfortable for me), and it's WAY harder to shoot at a high level than darn near anything else I've used.

The M&P2.0 Compact and the P10C are, for me, both vastly product improved G19s, but both are more complex, and have a much smaller logistical "pipeline" if you want/need to replace parts, etc. The M&P has a marginal at best trigger, but you can APEX that. It also has a useable (not great, but useable) manual safety, which I find very comforting. The P10C is the polymer striker pistol that gave me my best ever 25 yard groups, consistently approaching what I could do with a good 1911 and tuned match ammunition. But, the trigger is funky (I got a lot of trigger slap), it's close to a snowflake as far as finding parts/accessories, and it looks like CZ is going to switch it out with something new in the near future, so I wouldn't invest a bunch of money in that platform right now.

I wouldn't use a P320 on a bet for anything but range toy purposes, and, even then, I wouldn't be comfortable with it.

My "all day every day" solution now is the P365 family - smallest configuration for pocket/hot weather IWB, the XL for all other carry needs. I haven't jumped onto the Macro bandwagon yet, because my "shoot on the range" fun gun is still a Prodigy (don't hate). BUT, there are enough really smart/talented shooters on this forum that think the Macro is up there in shootability...

[Nephrology]

I'm too invested in Glocks to really care. I have so many glock 19/17/26/etc mags and holsters and parts and blah blah.

There are probably better pistols out there, but if I was going to jump to a new handgun it would need to offer something wildly different (like a 9mm 1911). For plastic people poppers (stolen from Tamara) Glock is as good as any other, and its probably the most known quantity in factory handguns.

[breakingtime91]

I'm too invested in Glocks to really care. I have so many glock 19/17/26/etc mags and holsters and parts and blah blah.

There are probably better pistols out there, but if I was going to jump to a new handgun it would need to offer something wildly different (like a 9mm 1911). For plastic people poppers (stolen from Tamara) Glock is as good as any other, and its probably the most known quantity in factory handguns.

That's a good way to put it. Chose which polymer framed gun you want with the features you want.

[David S.]

Sorry for the tangent, but I don’t understand why an individual would limit their choice based on its “logistical pipeline” in 2024. It’s not a challenge to get small parts for any of the big name firearms. If you’re concerned about hard times, then stock up ahead of time. :shrug:

[TGS]

If I were recommending a gun based on body type and wardrobe, it would be a NAA mini revolver. Too fat, clothes too tight, clothes that will fall down with a G42 IWB. It's a shit show out there. I live in FL, and we are different, but there aren't many people that don't check one of those three wardrobe boxes.

I went down to Florida to do an interdiction with BCSO SID (can't remember the specific unit in SID, the coin I got is just for SID).

I had no idea how crazily overdressed I'd be for wearing a white linen shirt and jeans, and it's not even like we were working in a trailer park. Literally all the detectives with us looked like white trash. Basketball shorts, oversized t's with worn out collars, etc.

[Nick B]

My first Glock was a G45. My second was a G19G5. Both have SCDs, and the 19 has a Grip Anchor. I really like the G45, but the 19 w/Grip Anchor feels better and is the one that gets carried. I'm comfortable carrying a K frame so the two additional rounds in the G45 are a non-issue for me.

That's why they make different versions. :)
What is a SCD ?

[Chefdog]

It’s a replacement backplate that essentially gives you a “hammer” to thumb down during reholstering. It pivots outward as the striker initially retracts during the trigger press.
https://langdontactical.com/glock-striker-control-device-scd/

[TWR]

I bought into the M&P’s. My first one wasn’t too bad then I bought one ready for an optic and started throwing Apex parts in them. They finally came out with the 2.0’s and I bought two compacts, sold both of the 1.0’s and thought I finally had THE ONE, or two of them. Wound up spending more money with Apex to get a better trigger and thought I was there until I shot my buddy’s Glock 19.

I shot his box stock Glock better than my Apex’d 2.0’s. When the Gen 5 Glock caught my eye I bought one and then another. Next thing I knew I sold my M&P’s and had replaced them with Glock’s and I’ve never looked back. I just shoot them better.

[G19Fan]

I’d still like to learn more about the P250, I remember when they were new and hit the gun rags. I know there are at least two major generations and (knowing SIG) about 32,871 running production changes. Does the P250 FCG work with the Wilson Combat grip modules?

A p250 fcu will fit wilson grip modules

[psalms144.1]

Sorry for the tangent, but I don’t understand why an individual would limit their choice based on its “logistical pipeline” in 2024. It’s not a challenge to get small parts for any of the big name firearms. If you’re concerned about hard times, then stock up ahead of time. :shrug:GLOCK hasn't sold any replacement parts for anything since COVID started. Not even through LE distributors. Took me a couple of weeks to find the parts to add a manual safety to my M&P. Haven't even looked for parts for a P10 lately, but when I was shooting my S2 OR, took me several months to find an RMR optic plate, and ended up having to buy it from a European vendor.

So, call me crazy, but I think parts availability is still a thing. Of course, I'm also CHEAP, on an ever-shrinking fixed budges, and won't pay "Glock Store" $30 for a $5 part (plus shipping), so maybe I'm my own worst enemy.

[Nephrology]

Sorry for the tangent, but I don’t understand why an individual would limit their choice based on its “logistical pipeline” in 2024. It’s not a challenge to get small parts for any of the big name firearms. If you’re concerned about hard times, then stock up ahead of time. :shrug:

Because it means I don't have to spend a bunch of extra money on holsters, magazines, tools like sight pushers, etc.

It's not about availability, it's about price. I only have so much time/money to throw at guns these days, my goal is for as much of my gun $$ to go to range fees/ammo as possible.

And in counter point, what is the gain? Another plastic gun that probably won't be all that different?

[Noah]

GLOCK hasn't sold any replacement parts for anything since COVID started. Not even through LE distributors. Took me a couple of weeks to find the parts to add a manual safety to my M&P. Haven't even looked for parts for a P10 lately, but when I was shooting my S2 OR, took me several months to find an RMR optic plate, and ended up having to buy it from a European vendor.

So, call me crazy, but I think parts availability is still a thing. Of course, I'm also CHEAP, on an ever-shrinking fixed budges, and won't pay "Glock Store" $30 for a $5 part (plus shipping), so maybe I'm my own worst enemy.

I’ve had zero problems getting OEM Glock parts cheap on eBay for the last few years. Hundreds and hundreds of small shops.

[Nephrology]

I’ve had zero problems getting OEM Glock parts cheap on eBay for the last few years. Hundreds and hundreds of small shops.

"OEM"

Not sure how much I trust EBay sourced items myself unless I know the specific seller to be legit

[vandal]

In my area we are only allowed two guns on our permits, and I spend most my time shooting those. They cover my needs pretty well anyway:

1) For normal errands, outings, etc where it's just me or me and my wife, P365 X-Macro (with normal XL slide). I'm pretty happy with the comfort/capability/shootability compromise for "EDC"

2) For large format events, or if we might have some longer-term and more groups-oriented times of unrest (i.e. another 2020) I keep the G19.5 on my permit as my "level up" gun. With the LTT grip anchor it stands in for a G45, and I just trust it (more than the Sig) to be reliable for long hard use without maintenance, malfunctions, rust, or breakage (and it's much easier to fix if something does break).

I'd say yes, G19 is still my standard. I can't see myself ever dropping it from a very short list of go-to options. Before the 365XL/Macro came along the "small" gun on my permit was a bigger compromise and the Sig has cut into the G19's use for EDC, but it can't displace the G19 as a hard use tool.

[Hambo]

I went down to Florida to do an interdiction with BCSO SID (can't remember the specific unit in SID, the coin I got is just for SID).

I had no idea how crazily overdressed I'd be for wearing a white linen shirt and jeans, and it's not even like we were working in a trailer park. Literally all the detectives with us looked like white trash. Basketball shorts, oversized t's with worn out collars, etc.

You had to hide your pale gringo legs under something. ;) FWIW you were dressed for a high end party in Palm Beach, say at James Patterson's house. Next time, I'd recommend "Canadian tourist." LLBean or Land's End shorts and T-shirt, souvenir ballcap from Idaho, Montana, or Wyoming, and this is key, you must wear socks.

[rob_s]

I went down to Florida to do an interdiction with BCSO SID (can't remember the specific unit in SID, the coin I got is just for SID).

I had no idea how crazily overdressed I'd be for wearing a white linen shirt and jeans, and it's not even like we were working in a trailer park. Literally all the detectives with us looked like white trash. Basketball shorts, oversized t's with worn out collars, etc.


You had to hide your pale gringo legs under something. ;) FWIW you were dressed for a high end party in Palm Beach, say at James Patterson's house. Next time, I'd recommend "Canadian tourist." LLBean or Land's End shorts and T-shirt, souvenir ballcap from Idaho, Montana, or Wyoming, and this is key, you must wear socks.

Largely depends on what part of Florida. The state is, sociologically, at least two distinctly different areas (Tampa/Orlando/Daytona make a line across the state) and arguably three (south of Orlando, Orlando corridor, north of corridor and up to panhandle).

Particularly within the SE area, racial, country-of-origin, and other demographics further break things down.

On-topic, I think the fact that one can carry a G19 in any of those outfits is part of the appeal, as well as the fact that if a costume change allows for a larger frame or requires a smaller one, you can do it all with the exact same holster and spare mag(s).

There may well be other "platforms" or "systems" that can do the same but I've kinda not ever seen any reason for looking into it too deeply.

it's kinda like Android (everything else) vs Apple (Glock) phones. The former are always busy explaining why their choice is as good or better while the latter just keep rocking on wondering what the counterpart is blathering on about. :p

117426

[Texaspoff]

I’ve had zero problems getting OEM Glock parts cheap on eBay for the last few years. Hundreds and hundreds of small shops.

Same here as far as sourcing parts, local shop always has them in stock as well as Midway. I have never "not" been able to get an OEM part.

Even as an armorer, it's always been easier to pick up parts locally, than dealing with ordering direct. It's worth paying a few dollars more to support brick and mortar and avoid the hassle.




TXPO

[LockedBreech]

I have a Gen5 G19 set up with an SCS MOS and a TLR7 for two reasons. First, it's the only pistol in my shrinking stable that my wife has any interest in shooting. Secondly, it's the pistol that I believe will be most reliable for the longest time if I have to run it hard, continuously, with minimal maintenance. AND, if anything breaks, it takes 5 minutes or less to detail strip, replace parts, and reassemble.

I spend darn near no time with it, because it hurts to shoot well (amount of grip strength needed and grip angle combine to make it very uncomfortable for me), and it's WAY harder to shoot at a high level than darn near anything else I've used.

The M&P2.0 Compact and the P10C are, for me, both vastly product improved G19s, but both are more complex, and have a much smaller logistical "pipeline" if you want/need to replace parts, etc. The M&P has a marginal at best trigger, but you can APEX that. It also has a useable (not great, but useable) manual safety, which I find very comforting. The P10C is the polymer striker pistol that gave me my best ever 25 yard groups, consistently approaching what I could do with a good 1911 and tuned match ammunition. But, the trigger is funky (I got a lot of trigger slap), it's close to a snowflake as far as finding parts/accessories, and it looks like CZ is going to switch it out with something new in the near future, so I wouldn't invest a bunch of money in that platform right now.

I wouldn't use a P320 on a bet for anything but range toy purposes, and, even then, I wouldn't be comfortable with it.

My "all day every day" solution now is the P365 family - smallest configuration for pocket/hot weather IWB, the XL for all other carry needs. I haven't jumped onto the Macro bandwagon yet, because my "shoot on the range" fun gun is still a Prodigy (don't hate). BUT, there are enough really smart/talented shooters on this forum that think the Macro is up there in shootability...

Well said. Do I prefer the M&P line over the Glock line? Yes, by just a smidge. But there's a reason I still own just as many Glocks. They're an excellent platform and their logistical support is utterly dominant.


I’d still like to learn more about the P250, I remember when they were new and hit the gun rags. I know there are at least two major generations and (knowing SIG) about 32,871 running production changes. Does the P250 FCG work with the Wilson Combat grip modules?

I believe someone answered this already but I think the answer is yes. I do not own one, sadly. I had trigger time on one before I ever really appreciated the benefits of a good DAO system. They always struck the same chord with me as the SP2022. Not too many models, not too complicated, and that helped keep the quality consistent.

[Navin Johnson]

I’d still like to learn more about the P250, I remember when they were new and hit the gun rags. I know there are at least two major generations and (knowing SIG) about 32,871 running production changes. Does the P250 FCG work with the Wilson Combat grip modules?

Much like a Kahr trigger. No stack, no wall. Way better than LEM.

To me an ideal carry trigger

But ya know competition, internet, gun forums etc.

[HeavyDuty]

Much like a Kahr trigger. No stack, no wall. Way better than LEM.

To me an ideal carry trigger

But ya know competition, internet, gun forums etc.

I seem to recall it was very revolver-like, there’s no riding the reset with a P250. Or am I misremembering?

[breakingtime91]

Much like a Kahr trigger. No stack, no wall. Way better than LEM.

To me an ideal carry trigger

But ya know competition, internet, gun forums etc.

Lem isn't a dao.. if you run it like a Dao I can get why people think it sucks.

[Gadfly]

I seem to recall it was very revolver-like, there’s no riding the reset with a P250. Or am I misremembering?

you are correct. P250 was an excellent trigger if you like true DAO. Unfortunately SIG QC and the roll out of the 250 in .40 to the FAMS was a disaster and the bad PR kind of helped kill off the p250. But I really liked the few 9mm examples I shot. Wish I had grabbed one.


"Lem isn't a dao.. if you run it like a Dao I can get why people think it sucks."

I was issued a LEM (USPc), and I still own an LEM (P2000sk). And I do think the trigger sucks. I can run it, but it is my least favorite. The guns are extremely reliable, but with the way i like to shoot, and the feel of the reset and the wall? "Meh" at best. I am surprised it gets as much love as it does. Maybe one day i will get bored and try to run the LEM and love it. Maybe.

[HeavyDuty]

you are correct. P250 was an excellent trigger if you like true DAO. Unfortunately SIG QC and the roll out of the 250 in .40 to the FAMS was a disaster and the bad PR kind of helped kill off the p250. But I really liked the few 9mm examples I shot. Wish I had grabbed one.


"Lem isn't a dao.. if you run it like a Dao I can get why people think it sucks."

I was issued a LEM (USPc), and I still own an LEM (P2000sk). And I do think the trigger sucks. I can run it, but it is my least favorite. The guns are extremely reliable, but with the way i like to shoot, and the feel of the reset and the wall? "Meh" at best. I am surprised it gets as much love as it does. Maybe one day i will get bored and try to run the LEM and love it. Maybe.

I suspect the only way a P250 follows me home is if one falls in my lap for cheap.

I’ve learned to love LEM, especially after respringing and adding GG’s flat trigger and short reset kit. This totally changes the pistol for me.

[breakingtime91]

you are correct. P250 was an excellent trigger if you like true DAO. Unfortunately SIG QC and the roll out of the 250 in .40 to the FAMS was a disaster and the bad PR kind of helped kill off the p250. But I really liked the few 9mm examples I shot. Wish I had grabbed one.


"Lem isn't a dao.. if you run it like a Dao I can get why people think it sucks."

I was issued a LEM (USPc), and I still own an LEM (P2000sk). And I do think the trigger sucks. I can run it, but it is my least favorite. The guns are extremely reliable, but with the way i like to shoot, and the feel of the reset and the wall? "Meh" at best. I am surprised it gets as much love as it does. Maybe one day i will get bored and try to run the LEM and love it. Maybe.

Factory lem leaves a lot to desire. Couple spring changes and gray guns short reset kit for 90 dollars gives you a very workable trigger. V2 lem guns (most people were issued p2000s) are in the 8lb range. If you get it down to 5lbs and a short reset it runs like a striker. There is a compromise in everything, the LEM was popular because it is an extremely safe trigger to live with. I have tried twice to move away from lem but I rather be safer training from appendix and carry everyday then having an easier to shoot trigger.


I won't hijack this thread but I think people discredit lem because it isn't something they get and the factory triggers leave a lot to be desired. But what do I know, people are fine with a shit ton of beretta trigger work to make the da/sa more usable, apply that to lem and the entire system sucks.

[Navin Johnson]

Shot a light LEM for a bit and struggled…… that being said,”

If the new slim HK came with an exposed hammer and LEM I would buy 3


Oh and also why wouldn’t the 19 be the standard? If nothing else its the most common and most universal reference.

[Biggy]

I will always have at least one Glock 19, currently a Gen 5, and will probably get a Gen 6 when it comes out. I think even today when many other striker pistols have probably caught up to it and even surpassed it in some areas. I would still trust a Glock 19 to be more reliable out of the box over other striker fired pistols, after buying it new at a gun shop, leaving the gun shop, loading the mags, no oiling it, sticking it in the holster and betting my life on it. I prefer to have a SCD on ll my striker fired pistols first if possible or second to have a manual thumb safety on it.

https://i.imgur.com/p8YtWmKh.jpg

[Gadfly]

Factory lem leaves a lot to desire. Couple spring changes and gray guns short reset kit for 90 dollars gives you a very workable trigger. V2 lem guns (most people were issued p2000s) are in the 8lb range. If you get it down to 5lbs and a short reset it runs like a striker. There is a compromise in everything, the LEM was popular because it is an extremely safe trigger to live with. I have tried twice to move away from lem but I rather be safer training from appendix and carry everyday then having an easier to shoot trigger.

.

I would prefer it was more akin to a true DAO trigger. But having felt an HK DAO, I know they kind of suck. I am tempted to just buy the heavy trigger return spring, but on HK Parts, it says they are only to be installed in the P2000, NOT the sk. Any clue on if it would work in the SK? seems like a cheap upgrade to try and make the gun feel more like I want.

Torn on if I want to dump more money into the gun. I don't hate it enough to sell it off, but don't love it enough to grab it for the range. If i had to shoot one of my .40s, the 229 DAK would be my first choice. DAK made a great DAO feel.

The gray guns kit looks interesting, and would shorten the reset by a 3rd. But it would still feel like an LEM?

[HeavyDuty]

I would prefer it was more akin to a true DAO trigger. But having felt an HK DAO, I know they kind of suck. I am tempted to just buy the heavy trigger return spring, but on HK Parts, it says they are only to be installed in the P2000, NOT the sk. Any clue on if it would work in the SK? seems like a cheap upgrade to try and make the gun feel more like I want.

Torn on if I want to dump more money into the gun. I don't hate it enough to sell it off, but don't love it enough to grab it for the range. If i had to shoot one of my .40s, the 229 DAK would be my first choice. DAK made a great DAO feel.

The gray guns kit looks interesting, and would shorten the reset by a 3rd. But it would still feel like an LEM?

I use the heavy TRS spring in my sk, no issues. And the short reset kit is a big improvement in my eyes

[breakingtime91]

I would prefer it was more akin to a true DAO trigger. But having felt an HK DAO, I know they kind of suck. I am tempted to just buy the heavy trigger return spring, but on HK Parts, it says they are only to be installed in the P2000, NOT the sk. Any clue on if it would work in the SK? seems like a cheap upgrade to try and make the gun feel more like I want.

Torn on if I want to dump more money into the gun. I don't hate it enough to sell it off, but don't love it enough to grab it for the range. If i had to shoot one of my .40s, the 229 DAK would be my first choice. DAK made a great DAO feel.

The gray guns kit looks interesting, and would shorten the reset by a 3rd. But it would still feel like an LEM?

Yes p2000 trs works in 2000sk, I believe the only different spring in the gun that's commonly changed is the hammer (main spring)

I don't think you will ever get a true DAO feeling out of a lem, it wasn't designed in that manner. From what I can gather from researching this and hearing a popular hk smith talk about it (lazy wolf), it is more of a qusae SAO trigger in principal. Imagine that long first take up like the take up in a vp9 or glock 19 but longer for safety. That is meant to be quickly pulled through and then you get to your wall like any other gun that you pull through. Whether you run that by rolling through the entire thing or staging matters on your shooting style, distance, and difficulty of the target. The lem will never feel like a true Dao because there isn't a steady amount of weight on the trigger as you press it. The take up will always be lighter than the actual break when it comes to lem. Even with my v2 p2000 with its 8lb pull, the take up is a lighter feeling take up and the wall feels like that heavy 8lbs.


I think to shoot lem well takes work, and for some it definitely is not worth it. But if you figure out the way it is intended to be shot and you dedicate yourself to the system (with a few decently affordable changes) you can have a very nice shooting and arguably safest gun for concealed csrry (especially in appendix).


With all that said, there are like 5 of us on PF that still carry LEMs since Todd really made the p30 popular

[Sig_Fiend]

Does the P250 FCG work with the Wilson Combat grip modules?

Yep, it sure does. They're fantastic guns for what they are. This one is a .380 with the fairly uncommon 15 round mags. Between the soft recoil of that plus the Armory Craft flat trigger, that thing is a joy to shoot and a ridiculously smooth DAO pull.

117441


I would prefer it was more akin to a true DAO trigger. But having felt an HK DAO, I know they kind of suck. I am tempted to just buy the heavy trigger return spring, but on HK Parts, it says they are only to be installed in the P2000, NOT the sk. Any clue on if it would work in the SK? seems like a cheap upgrade to try and make the gun feel more like I want.

Torn on if I want to dump more money into the gun. I don't hate it enough to sell it off, but don't love it enough to grab it for the range. If i had to shoot one of my .40s, the 229 DAK would be my first choice. DAK made a great DAO feel.

The gray guns kit looks interesting, and would shorten the reset by a 3rd. But it would still feel like an LEM?

Is the thing you dislike about LEM the contrast between extremely light pre-travel and the breaking point? If so, totally understandable. The light TRS in the V1 LEM P2K/SK feels pretty lame, in my opinion. The trigger feels sluggish, reset isn't exactly snappy, etc. Feels like a crappy SA pull with lots of pre-travel. With the heavier TRS, this is considerably improved.

In my opinion, the sweet spot in LEM is any configuration like or close to what Todd originally came up with (in the case of the P2KSK, should just be the heavy TRS). Usually resulting in a ~6-7# pull (possibly as high as ~7.5# depending on the gun). This reduces the contrast between pre-travel and the break, and it feels closer to a true DAO (at least insofar as these can feel like a DAO).

Combine this with the GG short reset kit, and you end up with a trigger that resets early and is very forgiving. Kind of like a clutch pedal with a huge engagement range that you can just beat on without issue. I don't want to oversell it by any means. They're certainly not amazing-feeling triggers compared to a nice true DAO. That said, they can be made to feel considerably better than the weak and sloppy V1 feel.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I’d still like to learn more about the P250, I remember when they were new and hit the gun rags. I know there are at least two major generations and (knowing SIG) about 32,871 running production changes. Does the P250 FCG work with the Wilson Combat grip modules?

Yes.

117516

SIG basically made the P320 by taking the P250 and making the hammer-fired parts into striker-fired parts. Grip modules, magazines, barrels, and maybe some other parts not directly related to fire control bits are compatible.

One of the big departures was that the rear sight is also the firing pin stop, so it is not in a dovetail, nor drift adjustable. But it came in 3 different heights and with/without tritium. Front sight is standard dovetailed SIG.



you are correct. P250 was an excellent trigger if you like true DAO. Unfortunately SIG QC and the roll out of the 250 in .40 to the FAMS was a disaster and the bad PR kind of helped kill off the p250. But I really liked the few 9mm examples I shot. Wish I had grabbed one.

I thought that the FAMS gun were .357 Sig, but same/same. While researching before my purchase, I learned that SIG fixed the issues with very little ado or fanfare.



I suspect the only way a P250 follows me home is if one falls in my lap for cheap.

If you ever make it down to the Corpus area, hit me up and you can coon-finger/shoot mine.

[RJ]

I suspect the only way a P250 follows me home is if one falls in my lap for cheap.

I’ve learned to love LEM, especially after respringing and adding GG’s flat trigger and short reset kit. This totally changes the pistol for me.

I wish sometimes I’d kept my P30SK LEM long enough to respring it, but alas, the Gen 5 Glock and Tom’s SCD were released at the same time in 2017, and so down the road it went…

[Slice]

My 19.5 is still at or near the top of my edc list along with my VP40. I shoot both equally well. Which one I choose depends on if I want just a little better concealment, then it’s my 19. My G19 experienced occasionally failures to reset the trigger recently so sent it to Glock. Got it back a month later and the trigger feels even better than the original. I’ve been working on long range shooting and fired this nice for me group from 25 yards today off hand. No doubt the G19.5 is a very capable pistol.

[Dcowboyscr]

My 19.5 is still at or near the top of my edc list along with my VP40. I shoot both equally well. Which one I choose depends on if I want just a little better concealment, then it’s my 19. My G19 experienced occasionally failures to reset the trigger recently so sent it to Glock. Got it back a month later and the trigger feels even better than the original. I’ve been working on long range shooting and fired this nice for me group from 25 yards today off hand. No doubt the G19.5 is a very capable pistol.

What parts did Glock end up replacing?

[Slice]

Just about everything. They even rebuilt the slide and replaced the recoil spring. I’ll try and be more specific tomorrow.

[Slice]

Photo of paperwork that came back with my pistol.

[Rex G]

One thing a lot of people seem to forget about when it comes to "shootability," is how that translates into how much you'll train and/or practice.

I coordinated a private class for a dozen folks a couple of years ago and a young lady showed up with a G43 because it "fit her hand."

After only a few strings I could see she was struggling with the snappiness, so I loaned her a G19 and holster for the rest of the class. It was like night and day.

Seems to me if someone is buying their first handgun, and likely ONLY handgun at that point, it should be something they can and will train/practice with or they'll never develop the skills/proficiency they'll need if things ever go south. The G19 and other midsize 9s provide that. (Full size revolvers do too, but this is the semi-auto sub forum.)

Otherwise they just end up with a lucky charm to carry around to make themselves feel safer.

“Liked,” and wish that I could give this ten thumbs-up. Hand-to-gun “fit” is, indeed, so very important, and that which fits in dry-fire/dry-handling conditions is NOT, necessarily how things will work in live fire. And, that which works for a short familiarization live-fire may not hold true for a high-round-count day.

I cannot recall how exactly how HCM says it, but the way a weapon “feels” can “lie” to us.

[rawkguitarist]

Answering the OP’s question… yes. The G19 is still the standard.

I like to put it this way. If an average size person can only buy one pistol, that’s the Glock 19 in my opinion. Yes, that includes average size women.

The P365 XL is a close contender for sure. But I was giving a private lesson the other night and I swore the grip module he had was the standard 365 on the XL slide. Nope, it was the XL frame. It’s still a fairly small pistol. Either way… there’s no denying the 365 system is bad ass.

In between these… the Glock 48 is hard to beat too.

[HCM]

Answering the OP’s question… yes. The G19 is still the standard.

I like to put it this way. If an average size person can only buy one pistol, that’s the Glock 19 in my opinion. Yes, that includes average size women.

The P365 XL is a close contender for sure. But I was giving a private lesson the other night and I swore the grip module he had was the standard 365 on the XL slide. Nope, it was the XL frame. It’s still a fairly small pistol. Either way… there’s no denying the 365 system is bad ass.

In between these… the Glock 48 is hard to beat too.

The Glock 48 is …problematic.

The 365 Macro is in between the G19 and the XL, as is the G26. The difference being the majority of Macros and G26s actually run reliably.

[HCM]

“Liked,” and wish that I could give this ten thumbs-up. Hand-to-gun “fit” is, indeed, so very important, and that which fits in dry-fire/dry-handling conditions is NOT, necessarily how things will work in live fire. And, that which works for a short familiarization live-fire may not hold true for a high-round-count day.

I cannot recall how exactly how HCM says it, but the way a weapon “feels” can “lie” to us.

The late Todd Louis Green, the founder of Pistol Forum had an excellent article entitled “Feelings Lie” on his Pistol-Training blog which preceded this forum. SLG has kept the P-T blog alive but unfortunately the Feelings Lie article is no longer on P-T.

[SiriusBlunder]

The late Todd Louis Green, the founder of Pistol Forum had an excellent article entitled “Feelings Lie” on his Pistol-Training blog which preceded this forum. SLG has kept the P-T blog alive but unfortunately the Feelings Lie article is no longer on P-T.

I found it by using the search feature (magnifying glass) in the upper right hand corner (not trying to be snarky, just helpful): Feelings (https://pistol-training.com/feelings/)

[G19Fan]

The Glock 48 is …problematic.

The 365 Macro is in between the G19 and the XL, as is the G26. The difference being the majority of Macros and G26s actually run reliably.

Yeah I wanna say the xls run too.

Friends wife use got two new glocka (g43x and g48).nothing but issues

Loves to hang up going back to battery. I can replicate the issue at will.on them

[zaitcev]

I think you could begin to make the argument that the Sig 365 line is becoming the go to civilian pistol. Thoughts?

The P365 platform offers some advantages, primarily being slimmer. The P365XL is also fractionally smaller than G19 in other dimensions and its basic optic setup is simpler than MOS. Newer versions keep the rear sight, too. However, the lack of a normal rail hurts it when flexing into HD duty. You need an Xmacro for that, at which point might as well just go with G19. Overall it's basically a bash.

I use P365 because it's significantly smaller than anything Glock offers in 9mm. The size is almost exact match for G42, although it's heavier. The little SIG outclasses anything from Glock by a distance between Earth and Moon, and it's better than any of its direct competitors. The only gun that can match it is perhaps Hellcat. But that's not a flexible niche that you're asking about. If I wanted a universal gun in G19 size, it would be a coin toss between G19 and P365XL.

Did you check how much the magazines for P365 sell for?

[Redhat]

The P365 platform offers some advantages, primarily being slimmer. The P365XL is also fractionally smaller than G19 in other dimensions and its basic optic setup is simpler than MOS. Newer versions keep the rear sight, too. However, the lack of a normal rail hurts it when flexing into HD duty. You need an Xmacro for that, at which point might as well just go with G19. Overall it's basically a bash.

I use P365 because it's significantly smaller than anything Glock offers in 9mm. The size is almost exact match for G42, although it's heavier. The little SIG outclasses anything from Glock by a distance between Earth and Moon, and it's better than any of its direct competitors. The only gun that can match it is perhaps Hellcat. But that's not a flexible niche that you're asking about. If I wanted a universal gun in G19 size, it would be a coin toss between G19 and P365XL.

Did you check how much the magazines for P365 sell for?

In what ways do you think it outclasses Glock?

[zaitcev]

In what ways do you think it outclasses Glock?
I spelled it all out in the post that you quoted, but perhaps I wasn't laconic enough. Also, I assumed everyone knew the capacity numbers.

Let's try an American approach. Imagine you're in a college, but instead of reading what people wrote in a scholarly paper, you are in front of a large screen that says:

P365 IS SMALLER

while underneath it says, in a smaller type:

yet it carries more ammo

An upbeat background music is playing in an endless loop.

Somehow this presentation makes my argument irrefutable. It's magic.

[Brianjkeene]

The P365 platform offers some advantages, primarily being slimmer. The P365XL is also fractionally smaller than G19 in other dimensions and its basic optic setup is simpler than MOS. Newer versions keep the rear sight, too. However, the lack of a normal rail hurts it when flexing into HD duty. You need an Xmacro for that, at which point might as well just go with G19. Overall it's basically a bash.

I use P365 because it's significantly smaller than anything Glock offers in 9mm. The size is almost exact match for G42, although it's heavier. The little SIG outclasses anything from Glock by a distance between Earth and Moon, and it's better than any of its direct competitors. The only gun that can match it is perhaps Hellcat. But that's not a flexible niche that you're asking about. If I wanted a universal gun in G19 size, it would be a coin toss between G19 and P365XL.

Did you check how much the magazines for P365 sell for?


Macro still conceals better and is more comfortable to carry vs a g19 for me. I'd choose a Macro over the XL for a one-gun solution

[Redhat]

I spelled it all out in the post that you quoted, but perhaps I wasn't laconic enough.

Let's try an American approach. Imagine you're in a college, but instead of reading what people wrote in a scholarly paper, you are in front of a large screen that says:

P365 IS SMALLER

while underneath it says, in a smaller type:

yet it carries more ammo

An upbeat background music is playing in an endless loop.

Somehow this presentation makes my argument irrefutable. It's magic.

Well at least you got to your points without all the extra word salad.

Smaller is better

More ammo better

Is that all?

What about some other comparisons?

- Cost (including magazines /parts / other accessories)
- Reliability (including long-term)
- User maintainable (ease of parts replacement)
- Shootabiliity

I don't have a favorite outside what an individual prefers for their own reasons but I do think there might be other considerations besides "smaller and more ammo"



- Shootability

[Salamander]

The answer might be a little different in California than in most other states. That's because:

- We're currently limited to Gen 3 Glock's on the roster.
- And of course we're limited to 10-round magazines.

I'm told that some folks have had better success running carry ammo through Gen 5 G19s with 10-round mags. However I've seen many a Gen 3 G19 choke on JHP at local ranges. My old Gen 2 G19 never got through a 10-round magazine of JHP without a stoppage (it ran fine with standard capacity oem mags) and eventually I sold it. The scary part is that Glocks are still among the most common pistols I see at the range and most of those folks have never run anything but FMJ through them. When I ask if they've tested with carry ammo I get a blank look.

If someone asks for a recommendation, my standard response is that in California, a G26 is usually reliable but to test any larger 9mm Glock with carry ammo before seriously considering it as a carry piece.

This could all change. With the microstamping requirement being tossed we're finally seeing some things added to the roster that the rest of you have already had access to, including a P365 added fairly recently. There's nothing to stop Glock from offering a roster compliant Gen 5, they'd need to add a magazine disconnect if they chose to go that route. Sig, HK, and others are doing that. And of course we could eventually see the mag capacity limit tossed out, who knows if that will navigate the appeals process in my lifetime. Or Glock could design a 10-round magazine that consistently works as most of their competitors have already done. But unless/until some of those things happen, no I don't think a G19 is necessarily the standard in California and maybe not in some other states with capacity limits.

[GJM]

Macro still conceals better and is more comfortable to carry vs a g19 for me. I'd choose a Macro over the XL for a one-gun solution

I really hate to contemplate just one gun, regardless of manufacturer, but a macro in tac ops form, along with a 365 grip module, is as close to a do everything solution as there is. Of course, a Glock 26 MOS is also pretty versatile.

[HCM]

I found it by using the search feature (magnifying glass) in the upper right hand corner (not trying to be snarky, just helpful): Feelings (https://pistol-training.com/feelings/)

Good get.

[HCM]

Yeah I wanna say the xls run too.

Friends wife use got two new glocka (g43x and g48).nothing but issues

Loves to hang up going back to battery. I can replicate the issue at will.on them

IME all the 365 series guns run regardless of size. At least in 9mm. I can’t speak to the .380 version.

[Cool Breeze]

The Glock 48 is …problematic.

The 365 Macro is in between the G19 and the XL, as is the G26. The difference being the majority of Macros and G26s actually run reliably.

Is the 43x less "problematic"?

[Cool Breeze]

I have no idea if I answered already but if I did I'm changing my answer to a G26 MOS for a gun that can do duty / home defense / ccw.

I am going to bet the odds are crazy slim that someone buys a g19 and thinks this is just perfect for everything. 10 times out of ten they are going to want to venture into slim gun land and dip their toe in the water there. If a person is actually using a g19 for all 3 roles, they guaranteed have a bunch of holsters they tried, a bunch of guns they tested that are smaller and shoot like sh*t compared to a double stack Glock. So the one and done gun model came after much experience and experimentation.

The G26 has no problem flexing up to a duty role. Is the p365 in any configuration carried in any primary duty role? I'm actually curious if it passed any trials or tests by any agency? I'm ignorant to the gun as it has no interest to me so maybe it has.

If duty really means "duty" and not just a euphemism for reliable then I think finding one that someone is actually likely to carry everyday as a ccw is challenging (especially if they are not a firearms enthusiast) - a G26 is the easiest answer. If they like guns, then they are going to have a few and don't need to just have one anyway.

[TC215]

The G26 has no problem flexing up to a duty role. Is the p365 in any configuration carried in any primary duty role? I'm actually curious if it passed any trials or tests by any agency? I'm ignorant to the gun as it has no interest to me so maybe it has.

It did not pass FBI’s testing, but has passed testing conducted by other agencies.

[WobblyPossum]

I have no idea if I answered already but if I did I'm changing my answer to a G26 MOS for a gun that can do duty / home defense / ccw.

I am going to bet the odds are crazy slim that someone buys a g19 and thinks this is just perfect for everything. 10 times out of ten they are going to want to venture into slim gun land and dip their toe in the water there. If a person is actually using a g19 for all 3 roles, they guaranteed have a bunch of holsters they tried, a bunch of guns they tested that are smaller and shoot like sh*t compared to a double stack Glock. So the one and done gun model came after much experience and experimentation.

The G26 has no problem flexing up to a duty role. Is the p365 in any configuration carried in any primary duty role? I'm actually curious if it passed any trials or tests by any agency? I'm ignorant to the gun as it has no interest to me so maybe it has.

If duty really means "duty" and not just a euphemism for reliable then I think finding one that someone is actually likely to carry everyday as a ccw is challenging (especially if they are not a firearms enthusiast) - a G26 is the easiest answer. If they like guns, then they are going to have a few and don't need to just have one anyway.

The P365 series is the most popular personally owned weapon at one of the largest federal LE agencies (approximately 14k gun carriers). I haven’t seen the exact testing requirements but someone involved in the testing told me the test samples successfully fired 10k rounds of the duty ammo (124gr +p Gold Dot). Every configuration other than the SAS and the ones with built in comps is approved (standard, X, XL, Macro).

[Cool Breeze]

The P365 series is the most popular personally owned weapon at one of the largest federal LE agencies (approximately 14k gun carriers). I haven’t seen the exact testing requirements but someone involved in the testing told me the test samples successfully fired 10k rounds of the duty ammo (124gr +p Gold Dot). Every configuration other than the SAS and the ones with built in comps is approved (standard, X, XL, Macro).

Are agents required to buy a specific sku # directly from Sig?

[Navin Johnson]

It did not pass FBI’s testing, but has passed testing conducted by other agencies.

Just curious did any "slim line" 9mm pass FBI testing? (Shield, 43/48 series, etc)

thanks

[TC215]

Just curious did any "slim line" 9mm pass FBI testing? (Shield, 43/48 series, etc)

thanks

43 and 43X (after multiple tries/design changes). I don’t know that the Shield was ever tested.

[Cool Breeze]

Just curious did any "slim line" 9mm pass FBI testing? (Shield, 43/48 series, etc)

thanks

For a gun that was out 5 years before the p365... I'm surprised the shield doesn't get more duty love by agencies. You rarely, if ever, hear of problems with it.

[WobblyPossum]

Are agents required to buy a specific sku # directly from Sig?

There is a list of specific SKUs but it’s basically the entire P365 catalogue of the Sig Armed Professional Program (their Blue Label equivalent). The guns need to have the “W” at the front of the SKU denoting they were Sig APP guns but they can be sourced from anywhere. I’ve bought a gun from Proven Outfitters but there’s an Sig APP dealer in my city that I might contact when I decide to buy a Macro. I’m not even sure if an individual could order directly from Sig if they wanted to.

[Navin Johnson]

43 and 43X (after multiple tries/design changes). I don’t know that the Shield was ever tested.

But didn't the 43 series have lowered standards even after "upgrades"?

[TC215]

But didn't the 43 series have lowered standards even after "upgrades"?

The testing for the POWs involve less rounds than the testing for the duty gun (19M).

[Cool Breeze]

There is a list of specific SKUs but it’s basically the entire P365 catalogue of the Sig Armed Professional Program (their Blue Label equivalent). The guns need to have the “W” at the front of the SKU denoting they were Sig APP guns but they can be sourced from anywhere. I’ve bought a gun from Proven Outfitters but there’s an Sig APP dealer in my city that I might contact when I decide to buy a Macro. I’m not even sure if an individual could order directly from Sig if they wanted to.
That's a fair point. Probably the better question is, are the guns the same as the ones a regular Joe picks up at a Cabelas or do they have better sourced parts and better qa/qc, etc.?

A few years back, a friend of mine invited me to the gun show and a subsequent lunch with one of the guys who worked at Altoona and I ***think*** worked on the original acquisition (could be wrong). He was a cool guy and definitely liked the company. Mr. Cohen this. Mr. Cohen that. Very respectful and formal...nothing bad to say. But when I asked him something similar to the above question he just smiled and that was that.

[Navin Johnson]

For a gun that was out 5 years before the p365... I'm surprised the shield doesn't get more duty love by agencies. You rarely, if ever, hear of problems with it.

Shield/plus shoots much softer than 43 series and 365x also

My two problems with the shields is short grip with 10 round mag and small trigger guard especially with plus

[HCM]

Is the 43x less "problematic"?

No. IMHO the reliability issues with the 43, 43x and 48 stem from use of the G43 RSA and the grip being too small for many to get a solid grip on.

If anything the 43x is snappier and harder to shoot well than the 48.

[WobblyPossum]

That's a fair point. Probably the better question is, are the guns the same as the ones a regular Joe picks up at a Cabelas or do they have better sourced parts and better qa/qc, etc.?

A few years back, a friend of mine invited me to the gun show and a subsequent lunch with one of the guys who worked at Altoona and I ***think*** worked on the original acquisition (could be wrong). He was a cool guy and definitely liked the company. Mr. Cohen this. Mr. Cohen that. Very respectful and formal...nothing bad to say. But when I asked him something similar to the above question he just smiled and that was that.

Per the Sig website, the SIG Professional Program (I guess they’ve changed the name) is available to the qualified individuals listed below, with approved purchaser ID:

-Active-duty military with an active-duty identification
-Retired military with retired military credentials
-Honorably discharged veterans (requires DD214 or Veteran designation on state-issued ID)
-Active reservists with military identification
-Active national guard with military identification
-Corrections officer (including parole and probation officers)
-Sworn law enforcement officers (including federal, state, and county)
-Retired law enforcement officers with “retired” credentials
-Active or retired law enforcement with official agency credentials
-Court officers with official agency credentials or official documentation
-State / County / City Coroners with official agency credentials or official documentation
-Full time first responders with current credentials or official documentation
-EMT’s, Firefighters, Volunteer Firefighters, and Paramedics.

That covers a large number of potential purchasers. As to whether the “W” SKU guns have better QC or use parts from different vendors than the normal commercial guns, I haven’t a clue.

[HCM]

That's a fair point. Probably the better question is, are the guns the same as the ones a regular Joe picks up at a Cabelas or do they have better sourced parts and better qa/qc, etc.?

A few years back, a friend of mine invited me to the gun show and a subsequent lunch with one of the guys who worked at Altoona and I ***think*** worked on the original acquisition (could be wrong). He was a cool guy and definitely liked the company. Mr. Cohen this. Mr. Cohen that. Very respectful and formal...nothing bad to say. But when I asked him something similar to the above question he just smiled and that was that.

The 365 series guns were originally approved for open / commercial sourcing for POW use. The requirement for POWs to be W sku guns was implemented after QC issues encountered with commercial guns. So…

[Jay585]

That covers a large number of potential purchasers. As to whether the “W” SKU guns have better QC or use parts from different vendors than the normal commercial guns, I haven’t a clue.

I read an interesting blog post regarding that

https://apiprodigy.com/2023/11/02/law-enforcement-specific-equipment-trust-me-get-the-le-sku/


You have to have the LEM model for duty usage. Make sure you are buying the LEM model, and from an authorized Holosun LE dealer; for the best performance and reliability. As rugged and reliable as the standard Holosuns are, the LEM models are much more so.


SIG Sauer has an entire LE division, and line of products. Their LE SKU’s are built to an exacting standard. They are tested and the results are documented prior to leaving the factory. One of the largest law enforcement agencies in the US to issue Sig takes the LE SKU so seriously, that in order for individual agents to carry a personally owned Sig, it must have a LE SKU, AND come from an authorized Sig Law Enforcement Dealer (SLED).


Smith & Wesson and Glock both have LE SKU’s. There is a lot more to those guns than a spare magazine. They come with better quality small parts, more attention in the assembly process, and more vetting prior to leaving the factory.


Trijicon, Surefire, Aimpoint, and HK do not differentiate between end users. If you buy a product from them, you may be getting one from the same batch that is going to a Tier 1 counter terrorist unit. They use the same standards and testing for everything they make; the price and delivery times also reflect this.

[zaitcev]

What about some other comparisons?

- Cost (including magazines /parts / other accessories)
- Reliability (including long-term)
- User maintainable (ease of parts replacement)
- Shootabiliity


Cost is better for G19 if you include Gen3 clones. I think it's a wash for OEM Glocks.

Reliability... P365 beats the pants of single stack Glocks, but of course G19 is solid.
The word "long-term" seems like durability may be in question in addition to reliability?
In that case I'm ignorant. I don't have a G19 that's beyond 3,000 rounds.
Other posters on P-F claimed to possess a P365 that took in excess of 40,000 rounds.
It's basically on par with Px4 despite being this dainty. Wonders of Cohen's regime!

In the area of user maintenance, G19 is ahead for many reasons. It's better understood
in general. Again, sticking to Gen3 opens many doors that SIG cannot reach. Glock
also did many things to refine the design, such as replacing wire and flat springs with
coil springs.

Shootability is very personal. I much prefer the P365. On most Glocks before Gen5,
the edges of the butt cut painfully into my fingers as soon as I start to apply a proper
crush grip. P365 has a more oblong shape that allows me to hold the gun tighter.
In a self-defense situation it does not matter, but it matters in training a great deal.
In addition, the inside of G19 trigger guard rubs my index finger raw. Before I started
running P365, I had a good callus there. But all of it depends on hand shape, so
probably does not apply to others.

[WobblyPossum]

I read an interesting blog post regarding that

https://apiprodigy.com/2023/11/02/law-enforcement-specific-equipment-trust-me-get-the-le-sku/

Pretty informative article. Thanks. Just to quickly address one thing:


One of the largest law enforcement agencies in the US to issue Sig takes the LE SKU so seriously, that in order for individual agents to carry a personally owned Sig, it must have a LE SKU, AND come from an authorized Sig Law Enforcement Dealer (SLED). That agency is also the largest institutional user of pistol mounted optics in US law enforcement, and they issue Sig Electro Optics (specifically the Romeo1 Pro and Romeo 2). Those optics carry an LE SKU. That may be a clue.

The author is on the right track but the truth is actually even more restrictive than what’s described here. The only way a personally owned P320 is authorized at the referenced agency is if it’s one of a handful of specific SKUs that aren’t available for commercial sale at all to customers who aren’t employees of the agency. The guns are built to the specific agency contract spec. They have a certain serial number prefix to denote that. Guns that don’t have that SN prefix won’t be approved for duty use at all, regardless of whether or not they have the LE SKU on the box. There are two distributors who carry these guns so the only way to get one is to buy it from one of them after the buyer shows they’re an employee of the agency in question.

[Trajan]

43 and 43X (after multiple tries/design changes). I don’t know that the Shield was ever tested.

Do you know what was changed?

Only issue I've seen with the 43 was a batch of Talos models in early 2016 with the lighter connector not resetting in recoil.

[Biggy]

I will always have at least one Glock 19, currently a Gen 5, and will probably get a Gen 6 when it comes out. I think even today when many other striker pistols have probably caught up to it and even surpassed it in some areas. I still trust a Glock 19 to be more reliable out of the box over other striker fired pistols, like buy a new one at the gun shop, load the mags, no oiling it, just stick it in the holster and betting my life on it. While my other pistols, like my P365 Macro XL does carry noticeably better, my CZ P10c, CZ P-07's and my CZ P-01 Omega have all been 100% reliable and accurate, they have less rounds through them and therefore at this point I just have more trust built up in the G19. I also prefer to have a SCD on my striker fired pistols if possible ( like Glock and soon the CZ) or second to have a manual thumb safety on it if there is no SCD option. And if I could just have one it would still be the Gen 5 G19 , even with it's somewhat flawed grip angle (for me) and it's less than ideal stock grip ergo's, all because it's reliability, durability, simplicity and accuracy have been proven over time.

https://i.imgur.com/jC47Xxoh.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/5CgHJ9Qh.jpg

[HeavyDuty]

This thread made me doublecheck that both of my non-range P320s are W prefix - they are. That was intentional…

[TC215]

Do you know what was changed?

Only issue I've seen with the 43 was a batch of Talos models in early 2016 with the lighter connector not resetting in recoil.

I think I knew at one point, but the only thing I remember now is changes to the magazines.

[HCM]

Do you know what was changed?

Only issue I've seen with the 43 was a batch of Talos models in early 2016 with the lighter connector not resetting in recoil.

Among other things:,

Multiple changes to mags and followers.

The breech face cut now common across the Gen 5 guns originated in the G43/43X changes resulting from that agency testing /development.

How big is your sample size of G43s? We unfortunately authorized them without testing and before we deauthorized them (after actual testing) it was rare for me see one make it through a 50 round qualification course without a malfunction. In fairness the slim Glocks seem to do better with standard velocity ammunition and we only run +p or equivalent training ammo.

[Trajan]

Among other things:,

Multiple changes to mags and followers.

The breech face cut now common across the Gen 5 guns originated in the G43/43X changes resulting from that agency testing /development.

How big is your sample size of G43s? We unfortunately authorized them without testing and before we deauthorized them (after actual testing) it was rare for me see one make it through a 50 round qualification course without a malfunction. In fairness the slim Glocks seem to do better with standard velocity ammunition and we only run +p or equivalent training ammo.
Ah, I just checked my 43 and it doesn't have that cut.

Not sure on the number, 40ish probably. This was 2015-2016 when I worked at a sister company of an indoor range. I don't recall anyone having issues with the 43 or the 42 assuming they weren't using freedom munitions.

My personal 43 has never had a malfunction or issue that I can remember, but it has limited 124+p on it as shortly after getting it I transitioned away from 124+P GDs to 147 Ranger-Ts and HSTs.

It's getting a KKM barrel soon so it'll be interesting to see if anything changes. This is one of the first runs, and still on it's original RSA. Probably needs changed at this point.

[Nick B]

I will always have at least one Glock 19, currently a Gen 5, and will probably get a Gen 6 when it comes out. I think even today when many other striker pistols have probably caught up to it and even surpassed it in some areas. I still trust a Glock 19 to be more reliable out of the box over other striker fired pistols, like buy a new one at the gun shop, load the mags, no oiling it, just stick it in the holster and betting my life on it. While my other pistols, like my P365 Macro XL does carry noticeably better, my CZ P10c, CZ P-07's and my CZ P-01 Omega have all been 100% reliable and accurate, they have less rounds through them and therefore at this point I just have more trust built up in the G19. I also prefer to have a SCD on my striker fired pistols if possible ( like Glock and soon the CZ) or second to have a manual thumb safety on it if there is no SCD option. And if I could just have one it would still be the Gen 5 G19 , even with it's somewhat flawed grip angle (for me) and it's less than ideal stock grip ergo's, all because it's reliability, durability, simplicity and accuracy have been proven over time.

https://i.imgur.com/jC47Xxoh.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/5CgHJ9Qh.jpg
How do you like that Grip Anchor ?

[Kanye Wyoming]

How do you like that Grip Anchor ?
Not Biggy but I'll chime in to say I looooooove it. Total game changer if you have larger hands and tamed my urge to find something else having the positive qualities of the G19 but on which I could get a full grip. Best $28 I ever spent

[revchuck38]

How do you like that Grip Anchor ?


Not Biggy but I'll chime in to say I looooooove it. Total game changer if you have larger hands and tamed my urge to find something else having the positive qualities of the G19 but on which I could get a full grip. Best $28 I ever spent

+1!

[Chefdog]

How do you like that Grip Anchor ?

Not Biggy either, but I ended up cutting off the protrusion on my carry gun and just keeping the interior piece as a grip plug/mag funnel. It was just long enough that it made a slight difference in concealment for me with lighter clothing. I have one on my backup/training gun because it does help a bit and kind of splits the difference between my carry gun and the g47 I use as a nightstand gun.

[Savage Hands]

+1!


and another one!

[Rocket20_Ginsu]

The G19 definitely is the benchmark for this category…though by definition that means that there are other suitable substitutes we are comparing. To everyone’s earlier points there are others that are competitive (365, p30, p07, etc) - though the G19 is the most common answer to the 1 gun question…and I am super biased in that I have 5 of them, one for each member of my household.

While I’m sure all of us have many different sizes and flavors of platforms, myself included (48, 19, 17, 34), there are times the one gun solution is super appropriate. As an example some buddies and I take an occasional hunting trip to NV…weight and size is a consideration for flying and to make room for long guns and ammo I typically only bring 1 pistol (first world problems) to cover everything from an impromptu USPSA match, hill people gear chest rig for hunting, to ccw around town for dinner and I’m always rolling with a g19 w rds and tlr7.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GmanVP9]

I want a new pistol. Im torn between the G19, G45 and PDP.

This thread is making me lean G19 heavy

[Sensei]

I want a new pistol. Im torn between the G19, G45 and PDP.

This thread is making me lean G19 heavy

Glock 19. Simply add a factory +2 extension and you effectively have a G45 if you have Trump-sized hands.

[centex]

I want a new pistol. Im torn between the G19, G45 and PDP.

This thread is making me lean G19 heavy


Glock 19. Simply add a factory +2 extension and you effectively have a G45 if you have Trump-sized hands.


Or the LTT Grip Anchor, which effectively gives you a G45 length grip with no real detriment to concealment.

[42Willys]

Or the LTT Grip Anchor, which effectively gives you a G45 length grip with no real detriment to concealment.

I put a LTT grip anchor on my 19.4 and like it quite a lot. Doesn’t add much to conceal but makes the grip easier to handle.

[Rex G]

Well, for what it’s worth, I just “re-bought” a G19. I had traded-away my three Gen4 G19 pistols, in 2020, because they were getting to be too harsh on my arthritic right hand and wrist, whereas the taller grip of the G17 bridges all the way to the “heel bone” part of my hand, providing that additional point of FIRM contact, that makes ALL the difference, at least in my personal case. Since then, however, my healthier left hand has become much more important, in the carry equation, and there are niches that a G19 fits well. Plus, I have lefty G19 holsters, that are not made to fit Gen5. So, with what appeared to be a quite decent, pre-owned, little-fired Gen3 G19 at a local gun store, I exercised the credit card.

[WDR]

Well, for what it’s worth...

Just when you think you are out... they pull you back in. :cool:

[Basher]

Dang, this thread hit 16 pages in less than two weeks! :eek:

I'd have to say that the G19 is still the "standard" by which others are judged in many ways, yes. But it's not really the "king" of the heap anymore. There are other makers/models that compete head-to-head with it and hold their own, so it's more of a committee of acceptable suggestions lol.

For me, I recently sold all my Glocks. I NEVER thought I'd see the day, if I'm being honest. I've carried either a G19 or a G48 almost daily for the last ~12 years, give or take. They worked, and worked well. I took a few classes, shot countless local comps, and never had a problem with them. But lately I've found my aging wrists don't tolerate the grip angle as well as they used to, especially with a more modern "heads-up" stance in use today. So, I sold them. Part of me misses them already, and part of me finally feels free to embrace what I've chosen to replace them. At the moment that's in reference only to the G19, as I've not yet acquired a replacement for the G48. I'm carrying a PX4CC right now, but it's not as svelte. Still waiting for a quality slimline DA/SA to hit the market...

[GmanVP9]

Or the LTT Grip Anchor, which effectively gives you a G45 length grip with no real detriment to concealment.

Or I can be a man and buy a 10mm G40 lol

[HCM]

Dang, this thread hit 16 pages in less than two weeks! :eek:

I'd have to say that the G19 is still the "standard" by which others are judged in many ways, yes. But it's not really the "king" of the heap anymore. There are other makers/models that compete head-to-head with it and hold their own, so it's more of a committee of acceptable suggestions lol.

For me, I recently sold all my Glocks. I NEVER thought I'd see the day, if I'm being honest. I've carried either a G19 or a G48 almost daily for the last ~12 years, give or take. They worked, and worked well. I took a few classes, shot countless local comps, and never had a problem with them. But lately I've found my aging wrists don't tolerate the grip angle as well as they used to, especially with a more modern "heads-up" stance in use today. So, I sold them. Part of me misses them already, and part of me finally feels free to embrace what I've chosen to replace them. At the moment that's in reference only to the G19, as I've not yet acquired a replacement for the G48. I'm carrying a PX4CC right now, but it's not as svelte. Still waiting for a quality slimline DA/SA to hit the market...

You’ll be waiting a long time. DA/SA is a declining market.

[Rex G]

Just when you think you are out... they pull you back in. :cool:

True. ;) I had already bought back into the G26, a couple of years ago, after having sold the one I had, to a young rookie colleague, in the darkest twilight of my LEO-ing career, late 2017. (Its main role had been my ankle holster gun, while in uniform.) Now, I am back to having a G19. Of course, I had never left 9mm Glocks, actually upping my herd of G17 pistols, and adding a G19x.

I had traded-away my G19 pistols, in 2020, to enable acquiring more K-Frame snubby revolvers. Long-stroke double-action is my least-perishable trigger-pulling skill. Gradually, however, it started becoming apparent that long-stroke DA trigger-pulling is starting to vex my aging right index finger, with a notable worsening just this year. I feel it in my left index finger, too, just not nearly as bad, yet. So, a shorter, lighter trigger stroke regains its importance, in my life.

Thankfully, when I was pounding my hands, with big-bore Magnums, back in the Eighties, I was mostly shooting right-handed*. I write lefty, so, when I adopted the Glock system, in 2002, this strange, new-to-me system tended to be a better performer in my left hand; not enough to prompt me to transition to left-side carry, at the time, but a fortuitous thing, now, in my sixties, with my right hand just about worn-out.

*I could not legally carry handguns, in Texas, until I had been sworn-in as a peace officer. I had not grown-up around handguns. So, I was a mostly-clean slate, when I started duty handgun training, during the police academy, in 1983/1984. Drawing the then-mandated S&W L-Frame from the then-mandated low-slung duty holster was not unlike throwing underhanded. So, though I born to write lefty, I was born to throw right-handed, and long-stroke DA seemed to work well, with either hand, so, I established right-side carry. I did train lefty, too, but concentrated on shooting smaller “back-up” guns, such as S&W J-Frames, lefty. I phased-out the big bore Magnums, by 1990, but, long-term damage had been done, and would start returning, to vex me, by age 50, in 2011.

[Basher]

You’ll be waiting a long time. DA/SA is a declining market.

Oh, I know it’s a pipe dream. :) The ellipsis is supposed to suggest that my waiting will go on forever lol. Since I do have a few full-size M&Ps, I’ll probably end up with either a Shield Plus (if I’m willing to go with a handgun having a shorty grip that uses mag spacers for a full-grip), or I’ll go with some version of a P365XL or Macro if I want slim with a full grip. Or I may just wind up happy enough with the PX4CC that I adapt my gear to deeper carry when needed (a la Enigma or something).

But back to the OP, I still recommend the G19 (as well as a few others) to new shooters if they feel it fits them. It’s the “easy button” of nee handgun purchases.

[TikritTourist]

Compared to a Glock 19, lots of guns are easier to shoot well and conceal. What makes Glocks the "AR-15 of handguns" to me is they combine reliability, durability, simplicity, ease of service and troubleshooting, parts availability, industry support, and magazine compatibility with larger Glocks. As well, the Glock platform has a long history, so you know what you're getting and that the model will be around long term.

This!! Many people tend to overlook that Glock might not be the "best" at any one thing, but it is the overall package that keeps Glock on top of the heap, IMO.
The first time one takes apart a Sig P-series or Sig polymer or a Springfield XD, etc.. you will be reminded just how brilliant and simple the Glock design is.

I love the 1911 and revolvers, but give me a Glock for "serious" use.

[HeavyDuty]

This!! Many people tend to overlook that Glock might not be the "best" at any one thing, but it is the overall package that keeps Glock on top of the heap, IMO.
The first time one takes apart a Sig P-series or Sig polymer or a Springfield XD, etc.. you will be reminded just how brilliant and simple the Glock design is.

I love the 1911 and revolvers, but give me a Glock for "serious" use.

That’s one of the things I admire most about Glock - at the end of the day, they are glorified zip guns.

[Noah]

That’s one of the things I admire most about Glock - at the end of the day, they are glorified zip guns.

Yet somehow, they can be shot just as well as anything when you consult the timer and paper, and they’re about the safest and most vetted striker fired pistols. Often copied, but somehow never as simply and still not truly better.

[Lunker]

The first time one takes apart a Sig P-series or Sig polymer or a Springfield XD, etc.. you will be reminded just how brilliant and simple the Glock design is.


This is one of the things that sold me on the M&P. Only slightly more complicated with the separate trigger and sear arrangement, but equally robust, better ergos and easier to shoot for me, for me, manual safety, etc. My only negative is their optic ready system seems like a recipe for shearing screws in higher recoiling calibers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mmc45414]

My only negative is their optic ready system seems like a recipe for shearing screws in higher recoiling calibers.
I only have the one with an SRO, and even though it is 9mm I decided I would do a direct mill just to start with what I perceive to be the best and simples (and lowest) setup.

[ECVMatt]

This thread keeps popping up and happen to coincide with a recent trip to a remote area of the desert which prompted me to think about where I carry.

As in geographical location not physical location on the body.

I am lucky to live in an area that is surrounded by local mountains and deserts. A large mountain range begins about four hours north and extends into an adjoining state. I love to travel on remote roads and explore open spaces. This last weekend, I took the family out to the Death Valley area. We spent about 8 hours in the most remote part exploring mines and cabins. I have been reacquainting myself with Glock 26 (similar enough to the 19), so that is what I chose to carry on this particular trip. Normally, you would find me with my 19 or 17 when I am in the outdoors. I carried spare ammunition in my Glock 17 magazines that work in all three guns. Now where does all this go.

I am very likely to be found in the mountains and the desert as much as the city. I feel much more comfortable with a gun built for heavy use in those places. Just like my vehicle, I want to take as many reasonable precautions to prevent breakdowns in remote areas. Thinking back to my previous post, that is why I like more durable guns. I like not having to switch guns if I am going out of town and from a practical standpoint, makes training much easier. As others have stated the simplicity of the Glock design makes repairs on the go a simple task. A small emergency parts kit can fix most things that break on Glocks.

If I lived in the city exclusively and were never more than a handful of blocks away from my domicile (that would theoretically have additional parts, ammunition, and magazines) I don't think this would be as big of a consideration for me.

Again, I am not knocking the new smaller, carry oriented guns, just highlighting that geographic location influences my thought process.

Here is a pick from the Mengel Pass for perspective.

117843

[Le Français]

Edit: I think maybe I misunderstood.

[Cool Breeze]

Pretty informative article. Thanks. Just to quickly address one thing:



The author is on the right track but the truth is actually even more restrictive than what’s described here. The only way a personally owned P320 is authorized at the referenced agency is if it’s one of a handful of specific SKUs that aren’t available for commercial sale at all to customers who aren’t employees of the agency. The guns are built to the specific agency contract spec. They have a certain serial number prefix to denote that. Guns that don’t have that SN prefix won’t be approved for duty use at all, regardless of whether or not they have the LE SKU on the box. There are two distributors who carry these guns so the only way to get one is to buy it from one of them after the buyer shows they’re an employee of the agency in question.

"Smith & Wesson and Glock both have LE SKU’s. There is a lot more to those guns than a spare magazine. They come with better quality small parts, more attention in the assembly process, and more vetting prior to leaving the factory."


That's an interesting article. I suspected that Sig did this but this is the first I am hearing Glock or S&W doing so. Has anyone else heard this regarding these two companies? The only thing I remember regarding Glock was that DLC coated internals for 19M but that was widely known. I would consider that more a parts upgrade than a qa/qc or manufacturing tolerance tightening (or even material difference) with those guns. I definitely did not hear anything regarding assembly and testing.

[G19Fan]

"Smith & Wesson and Glock both have LE SKU’s. There is a lot more to those guns than a spare magazine. They come with better quality small parts, more attention in the assembly process, and more vetting prior to leaving the factory."


That's an interesting article. I suspected that Sig did this but this is the first I am hearing Glock or S&W doing so. Has anyone else heard this regarding these two companies? The only thing I remember regarding Glock was that DLC coated internals for 19M but that was widely known. I would consider that more a parts upgrade than a qa/qc or manufacturing tolerance tightening (or even material difference) with those guns. I definitely did not hear anything regarding assembly and testing.

From my understanding smith and glock do this too.

Most gun manufacturers I think understand that msot guns sold have less than 500 rounds lifetime on them

[echo5charlie]

From my understanding smith and glock do this too.

Most gun manufacturers I think understand that msot guns sold have less than 500 rounds lifetime on them

If Glock is paying more attention to the Blue Label guns as a whole then that is new OR something they recently started informing people about. I do specifically recall that in 2002 during my first Glock Armorers class that the instructor stated that all Glocks (then) went through the same QC. My last class in 2019 (and three in between) there was no mention that made it to my ears. I do have a Glock Operator course coming up in September, hopefully I will remember to ask the instructor to see if I can get clarification.

[SCCY Marshal]

...the instructor stated that all Glocks (then) went through the same QC.

Same Q.C. department. The prints, listed tolerances, tribal knowledge tolerances, what the inspectors are told to sign-off/ignore off versus be stiffs about, and labor are instructed to send forward may vary; any or all of them. I have yet to meet any factory floor that operated any differently with the possible exception of a small and highly specialized mill with customers who would not hesitate fly high level reps across the planet to sit in the owner's office all day, every day for a month if they got so much as a questionable delivery. And even that producer unofficially signed off lesser batches to customers they knew would buy it off when one of their grunts of engineers dropped the ball.

It gets real funny when you step into a shop that also produces off-brand products. "It's the same as the name brand" is not, has never, and will never be true.