Post ECQC changes in your approach to training and gear?

[JodyH]

Anyone else make some changes in your training and/or gear after taking ECQC?
I made a few small and large changes:

I am maintaining my workout program (sit-ups/leg raises, push-ups and pull-ups) my core conditioning really helped make up for my skills deficiencies in the evolutions. I could often power through sloppy technique.

I found a MMA/BJJ gym to get my "hands on" skill level raised, I'll be taking BJJ classes two nights a week.

I'm looking into taking a improv theatre class at the local junior college, my verbal MUC skills suck. Improv should help my "on the fly BS".

On the range I'm going to stop going to full extension on every draw and after every reload. I'm going to add more shooting and manipulations in the #2/#3 positions as well as work on my "elbow shields".

My daily CCW equipment is getting overhauled.
H&K P2000 or P2000Sk AIWB is still my primary carry gun.
P'Kal in my right front pocket is staying as well.
I'm adding a Delica to my left rear pocket or a Pacific Salt IWB at 9 o'clock.
I have a "Clinch-Pick" style knife being made for me by Ian (Maleficus (http://specialcircumstancesinc.blogspot.com/2012/09/new-design-added-to-stable-maleficus.html)) and I am going to add that just off center, left appendix.
I'm not carrying a spare magazine, I may add one at 8-9 o'clock or in my rear pocket later (depending on where my weak side blade is). I'd rather have more blades than more bullets.

After getting mauled in the 1-1 evolution by Capt.Kirk and reliving/analyzing it in living color on video, some training and equipment deficiencies were obvious.
I had no clue how to escape a side mount or when he had his legs wrapped around my waist when I finally flipped us over, BJJ training will help me here.
While entangled I had my weak hand free but couldn't reach anything that shoots or stabs, hence the Delica in my left rear pocket.
My right hand was somewhat in the vicinity of my belt buckle at times, but there was no way the gun was the answer and there was no way to get my P'kal out of my pocket and opened, that's where the centerline fixed blade could be an asset. The clinch-pick advantage was obvious in evolution after evolution.

ECQC wasn't a life altering experience (I've been exposed to a lot of the concepts before) but it did change how I'm going to prioritize my training and gear.
Basically, if you can talk to someone without shouting they are close enough to make it a chess game (position, MUC) rather than checkers (draw and shoot).
I'm going to adapt my training and gear to take into account my new perception of what "danger close" is.

[Shellback]

Good thread topic. I'll be taking ECQC 4/13.


I have a "Clinch-Pick" style knife being made for me by Ian (Maleficus (http://specialcircumstancesinc.blogspot.com/2012/09/new-design-added-to-stable-maleficus.html)) and I am going to add that just off center, left appendix.

Out of curiosity what's the price on that? Didn't see one listed on the link or anywhere else on his site.

[JodyH]

Good thread topic. I'll be taking ECQC 4/13.



Out of curiosity what's the price on that? Didn't see one listed on the link or anywhere else on his site.
Just email Ian and he'll give you a quote.
I'm getting a blade, trainer and two sheaths made.

PM me if you can't find his email address.

[TR675]

I joined a BJJ/MMA gym. I also "committed" to going to the weight room more often (kind of like I "committed" to cutting down on my french fry intake. Good intentions never hurt anyone, yeah?).

I got a p'kal and started carrying it on my "other strong" side. Jury's out on how much I like it, especially after immediately cutting myself with the sonofabitch keeping me out of either gym for about two weeks. Trainer ahoy.

That's about it.

One of my bigger concerns in ECQC was the huge number of malfunctions my M&Pc had in the No. 2 position caused by drag on clothing, no matter how canted it was. So I need to get to a range that will let me work on that and see if I can eliminate the problem. in the meantime I've been carrying revo's a lot, albeit less for that reason and more because they're just plain easier to hide.

[JodyH]

After ECQC, I'm much less concerned with handgun capacity.
I'm 100% comfortable with 10+1 in my SK. Went shopping in the "big city" today with the wife and I carried my 640 Pro J-frame as primary with no concerns (I have a revolver CCW match tomorrow and wanted some belt time with my revolver AIWB holster).
The flip side of my gun capacity comfort level is my blade accessibility comfort level. One blade is no longer enough, I am carrying a minimum of two knives positioned where I can always reach at least one with either hand.
While I still consider handgun reliability the number one criteria for choosing my carry gun, I now plan on whatever I have malfunctioning mid-fight.
I'm going to work my one-handed shooting and malfunction clearances a lot more.

[JDM]

More Jiu Jitsu, as in as often as I can mange, as opposed to a few times a week.

More weird shooting positions.

Practicing MUC on my friends to improve the playlist.

My situational awareness, which was good to begin with, is considerably better now.


I'm not changing anything I carry; the hardware worked real good.

[Shawn.L]

At my first ECQC the blade I was carrying (Bloodshark with flat wrap) was hard to grip in the grounded evo and I dropped it right from the sheath. In reality this is more of a issue of bad timing on my part, and no ground skill coupled with poor initial grip than anything else. But I spoke with Dan and he re wrapped it for me with a ridge wrap that has a lot more bite and width to it. Im carrying a clinch pick now, and after taking EWO I have a better idea how to effectively use it, but on the flip side Im also less tool focused on the blade and would be just as happy with any number of different blades carried there that are accessible and fit the size envelope.

I actually went less blades, as I became more aware that my focus was becoming tool centric. The answer to all my problems is positional dominance. A center-line blade can be accessed either hand. When thats not a good option I do go p'kal in the front right pocket but Im trying more and more to reduce my carry gear. 1 light, 1 blade, 1 gun is already plenty to carry so Ive become very mindful of what my intentions are if I start thinking "damn, if I would have only had an ankle rig....." instead of "I need to get better at passing the guard".

As for the software, each course Ive taken with Craig has had me get more focus. After AMIS I saw that a lot of what I was doing was spot on, and kinda gave myself permission to go gamer more on uspsa, enjoy it, and get real about focusing time on rapid movement and set ups. I also went to a carry light after AMIS with a usable strobe function, the 4sevens.

After the last ECQC I decided I needed to refocus on dealing with pressure and found a solid bjj program. With my life, and family and work being more important than training (hello reality) though the time I can commit to the gym is pretty small comparatively, but Ive put my focus on becoming consistent for long term growth.

[TR675]

I actually went less blades, as I became more aware that my focus was becoming tool centric. The answer to all my problems is positional dominance...[snip] With my life, and family and work being more important than training (hello reality) though the time I can commit to the gym is pretty small comparatively, but Ive put my focus on becoming consistent for long term growth.

Hello good sense.

I have my ECQC experiences going 'round and 'round with Tom Givens' lessons on his students' (and undercover FBI agents, etc's) experiences on the street, and post-ECQC I've ordered my training philosophy this way:

Getting involved in a violent criminal encounter is likely to be a black swan event for me. If it does happen, I'm more likely to be able to access and use my firearm than to end up in a clinch. This is also my preferred method of interacting with bad guys. Since none of Tom's students (that we know of, that survived) got into a FUT, going to the gun will be my default and priority.

OTOH, I already know how to shoot a pistol at a high level with minimal skill maintenance. And regular shooting for me right now involves travel, range fees, stupid range rules, lead exposure at crappy indoor ranges, idiots flagging me with their Saigas, gun cleaning, etc - it's a pain. And, if I do end up in a clinch, I need to know how to get out, or do IFWA, etc. - and also I need the exercise - and also it's fun - so going to BJJ school is my training priority right now.

And above all I don't let my training interfere with the rest of my life - I train to preserve my life, not in place of my life. What I can, when I can, and if life gets in the way, great! That just means I have one.

[TGS]

I tend to learn the hard ways sometimes, so even though I got my ass kicked in ECQC and decided to get in some more H2H training, I waited until a few months later for a dog fight to make me decide to actually sign up for more martial training (Muay Thai and FMA in passing) and start carrying a blade. I took a RGBO single-knife Eskrima seminar with BaiHu that really kept my interest high in blade work, as well. The Muay Thai is mainly (in no order) 1) as a conditioning medium, 2) because my agility during the Eskrima class was like a cow on ice, and 3) to just keep the whole use of violence as a familiar friend...although living in Trenton has done that enough honestly.

I'd like to do more FMA knife specific stuff, but the only places for FMA itself in my area are a good hour+ away while my gym has MMA, BJJ and Muay Thai, with another BJJ place (Ricardo Almeida) like 3/4 a mile from my house. Not that more knife training isn't better, but the pure simplicity and intuitiveness of RG knife techniques is definitely a plus when more consistent training isn't available.

[YammyMonkey]

A couple things to keep in mind here would be that the more tools you have, the more you need to be cognizant of where your opponent's hands are. If you only have one gun to protect it's less to think about in-fight. The flip side to that is that in an entaglement you tend to lose things. Guns come out of holsters, folders get driven out of pockets, etc. If you lose one, it could be useful to have another. Balancing those two is part of the gear game.

Be careful of keeping hard things in your back pockets. There have been enough cases of guys falling on lights, knives, etc. and causing serious structural pelvic injury that could very well be permanently debilitating. I think the first one of these that I heard of was via DocGKR and the second was from WTAprill. Think about how many evos go to the ground and easily it would be to take a hard, uncontrolled fall on a light or knife in a back pocket.

There is a pretty good chance that your gun will malfunction in an entangled gunfight, but keep in mind that those Sims guns are much more finicky than the real thing and they were filthy from being in the dirt for 2 days. I'm not a clean it after every range trip kind of guy, but I also don't roll around in the dirt with a mountain of a man like Kirk on a regular basis. There are so many things that can go wrong with a gun when you're tied up with someone else though, that having the ability to clear malfunctions one handed and in jacked up positions is a solid skill to have.

I spend a lot of time on one handed draws from concealment, both SHO & WHO. You may not be able to pick which hand is occupado so being able to access the gun with either hand is critical. Another solid point for AIWB. When I'm at the range I'll usually do a mix of pure marksmanship, speed, and shooting from the 2 & 3 to reinforce those positions. Shooting from the 2 with a short barrel gun is less than fun, but you have to have that position burned in so it's reliable and repeatable. Same goes for the 3. With minimal visual referencing of the gun it could be easy to miss completely in a shooting that involves multiple moving parties, so having that 3 ingrained is also very important. I like to use a large mirror during dry work for the 2 & 3. It definitely helps to see what I'm doing instead of guessing & hoping that I'm close enough.

Software wise, the improv and BJJ classes will definitely help pre & in-fight. Keep in mind with the BJJ that there are things you can get away with in the gym or in competition that will set you up for failure in the weapons based environment. Focus on getting to and defending your dominant positions and escaping from bad positions. Think about your ability to access tools from the different positions and your ability to quickly get disentangled and regain your feet so you're mobile.

See you again next year in NM guys.
Mike

[JDM]

I'm also much less concerned with what gun I have, so long as it is a reliable gun.

[SamuelBLong]

For me, Im going to keep on with the plan I set out after I took the course the first time:


BJJ 2-3x per week
CMD 2-3x per week
Keep on my diet

More practice from awkward positions
Start the Albuquerque training group


As BOM pointed out, reliability of the handgun matters the most. Blades and associated tertiary gear are all GTG.

The one thing I will have to figure out going forward is how to employ CMD in a more active role. Perhaps more CM3 time / work. I will have to discuss it further with Cecil to gather his thoughts.

Also I've decided to have Ian make me something, because his stuff is awesome. 5" Pilum dagger on order :cool:

[JodyH]

The BJJ instructor I found just received his CCW and wants to learn more about shooting.
Looks like my lucky day.
Perfect opportunity to swap skill sets with each other and he's very interested in how BJJ and weapons mix so he's very open to me bringing in my training knives and blue guns.
Hopefully we can form the nucleus of a training group.

I too hate having things in my back pocket, but that's currently the best place and the Delica is small and flat so I'm not as worried about sustaining an injury from landing on it as i would from a magazine or flashlight. JRC Holsters is making me a knife pouch (similar to a mag carrier) so I can carry my Delica at 8-9 o'clock on my belt, that gets it out of my pocket.

It's true, the more stuff you have the more you have to protect.
I can't remember who it was, but during the retention drills I clamped their arms down and carved them up with their own clinch-pick.
The "yard sale" phenomenon reinforces the "one is none, two is one" adage but having two of something can also mean there's one for you and one for him.
Finding that balance between accessible and retainable will take some time on the mat against someone with malevolent intent.

[phil_in_cs]

Kirk is a handful and that's a fact. I was in ECQC with him and his 'little' brother a couple of years back.

I am not sure that learning to improv a dialog is a good thing. Aren't you playing into their game if you do that? The dialog is a distraction and if you get into it with them you are playing their game and not yours. I try to focus on a 'tape loop' so I can be talking and keep my focus on important things like pre-assault cues and seeing other people that might be working with the guy talking to me.

ECQC is an audit; each time you take it you will fail and analyzing those failures tells you where to work. I've gone from "better conditioning and standup grappling" to "better decision making under pressure" to "getting out from under a pile" as I've iterated through the materials.

Getting a local training group going is a huge benefit. I wouldn't say we have group, but there are a couple of us local that workout as we can get our schedules in line. More iterations and more variety in contacts the better you will be at any endeavor.

[Dropkick]

I actually went less blades, as I became more aware that my focus was becoming tool centric. The answer to all my problems is positional dominance.

I don't think that can be emphasized enough.

[SeriousStudent]

.......

I have a "Clinch-Pick" style knife being made for me by Ian (Maleficus (http://specialcircumstancesinc.blogspot.com/2012/09/new-design-added-to-stable-maleficus.html)) and I am going to add that just off center, left appendix.


.......

I'd be very interested in your evaluation of this blade, after you carry it for a while. It looks like a very useful design, whilst minimizing potential legal issues. In my state, a double-edged blade or push dagger is illegal. But this looks like it could avoid those entanglements.

Thanks.

[nalesq]

Even though it is a mistake to become unduly fixated on one's tools (weapons), at the same time ECQC reinforced for me the necessity to have them available for use and to use them when the right time and position presents itself. The point of exploiting timing and positional dominance for me is to either get away or to shoot or stab the attacker, not to make the dude submit or score points for position. The difficulty, for me, is knowing when it really is a good opportunity to go for the gun or knife, and when I am just panicking and getting "tool-fixated" or, alternatively, letting the opportunity pass by and getting "grappling-fixated."

My training hasn't really altered yet to reflect this realization, because there aren't too many places or people around me with whom I can practice IFWA while in an entangled fight.

The other major epiphany for me in ECQC was the whole MUC component. I think this is something which too should be practiced, but it's hard to do so without good role players, and I'm not sure how to bring this about.

As far as gear goes, given how I shot my attackers multiple times and yet they still continued to assault me with supernatural vigor during the ECQC evos, if anything, I feel like I actually want more projectiles in the gun! I also wish fixed blade knives were legal for concealed carry in my jurisdiction.

[jumpthestack]

As someone who already did BJJ for many years, now when I practice BJJ I have been focusing on things like practicing more arm drags with my left arm, since if I do it with my right arm, I can't get at my weapon very easily. Also focusing more on arm control instead of head control.

[nalesq]

Another thing ECQC made me reconsider is the potential benefit of carrying and training with OC. Craig referred to OC as "eye jab in a can," or something like that. OC could be used to help buy time and space during the MUC phase of an encounter, if one finds oneself in a very grey situation where one believes legal use of deadly force is not quite there yet, but words and arcing aren't quite cutting it any more, either.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

For me it was really a mental shift away from hardware generally, although it definitely affected my choices about how to carry weapons of any sort. AIWB appeals to me WAY more than it used to...although I was more up on it last time it was popular, maybe fifteen years ago? But I found keeping a glock AIWB I could get to it in almost every situation much, much easier than anywhere else.

I also found that I was able to work over guys that I knew perfectly well could out-shoot the hell out of me simply because of my fitness level. I believe that strength conditioning from olympic-style lifts gave me a huge physical edge over guys that were in some cases bigger than me, or the same size but more cardio-focused. That was really interesting. It made me shift my priorities away from shooting, frankly. I felt like a solid grasp of shooting fundamentals combined with a grounding in a contact-based martial art and a base of strength from squats, deadlifts, and presses and the wind of a good 5k run time was a more effective defensive package than a much better shooting-specific skill set would have been.

And I realized that no matter what, a trained BJJ guy who outweighs me by 70 pounds (and I'm a couple of hundred pounds myself) is going to beat the living tar out of me. It was like fighting a shaved, greased, grizzly bear.

Hardware-wise...I basically consider most of my past knife purchases to be a waste of time now. Except this one $30 Timberline, which I totally ignored for years, and which I now carry everywhere, very close to the centerline. It works well RGEI.

I should probably be devoting more time to MA but I'm just short on available time these days.

[phil_in_cs]

The other major epiphany for me in ECQC was the whole MUC component. I think this is something which too should be practiced, but it's hard to do so without good role players, and I'm not sure how to bring this about.

You just need to find some guys and show them what you know, and then train with them. It also helps to use some surveyor's tape to set off artificial boundries, as it is pretty easy to stay away from people if you're in a large space. If you're doing a 2 on 1 MUC in a sidewalk shaped area, it makes keeping both of them in your vision much more difficult. It is way easier to get guys to train this part than a full on evo. The newer video has a good presentation on this. Get them to watch that; tell them your experiences, and do the work.

[JFK]

For me, Im going to keep on with the plan I set out after I took the course the first time:



Start the Albuquerque training group




In on that...... Only if you have a cool name..... and the tag line has a reference to waffles.

I decided that my gear was good for what I do. I am however going to start to do yoga to work on my flexibility, especially in my legs. The ground fighting exposed some shortfalls in my physical atributes.

[Skold]

You just need to find some guys and show them what you know, and then train with them. It also helps to use some surveyor's tape to set off artificial boundries, as it is pretty easy to stay away from people if you're in a large space. If you're doing a 2 on 1 MUC in a sidewalk shaped area, it makes keeping both of them in your vision much more difficult. It is way easier to get guys to train this part than a full on evo. The newer video has a good presentation on this. Get them to watch that; tell them your experiences, and do the work.

Are the links to the videos you are talking about public?

[SamuelBLong]

In on that...... Only if you have a cool name..... and the tag line has a reference to waffles.

I decided that my gear was good for what I do. I am however going to start to do yoga to work on my flexibility, especially in my legs. The ground fighting exposed some shortfalls in my physical atributes.

I've been busy, but the T-Shirts are headed to the printers this week :cool:

[JodyH]

I must have a T-shirt.
The Albq. group now has a war cry/pass phrase that puts "wolverines" to shame.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2

[nalesq]

You just need to find some guys and show them what you know, and then train with them.

You're right, that's exactly what I need to do. The folks in my Bible study group at church seemed interested when I described the MUC component to them after returning from ECQC - maybe I can get them to do it.

Another thing that occurred to me is that as it is generally taught, ECQC, including the MUC component, is currently geared primarily to the lone defender. However, as a married fellow with an infant on the way, I will often have dependents to worry about when I am out and about. I spoke a little about this with Craig, and he agreed that the existence of high-value dependents might lead to some changes to one's MUC tactics. I have talked it over with my wife, and right now the plan is for her to grab the back of my belt and go back-to-back with me, and at least warn of other potential threats. (She is usually not armed if she's with me - I know, not really logical, but that's just how she rolls, and at least she is usually armed when she is by herself). If I can convince my Bible study folks, most of whom are couples, to train and try out some MUC evos, maybe this will help me figure out how to better do multiple-defender MUC.

[Cecil Burch]

I felt like a solid grasp of shooting fundamentals combined with a grounding in a contact-based martial art and a base of strength from squats, deadlifts, and presses and the wind of a good 5k run time was a more effective defensive package than a much better shooting-specific skill set would have been.


Add in a good heaping, healthy dose of MUC skills and you have a damn good effective package.

[phil_in_cs]

Are the links to the videos you are talking about public?

These are the older ones:
http://www.ccdefense.com/index.php?categoryID=3
Both the PUC and REM II videos have a good take on MUC.

this is the newer one with Rob Pincus
http://icestore.us/Extreme-Close-Quarters-Concepts.html

[Skold]

These are the older ones:
http://www.ccdefense.com/index.php?categoryID=3
Both the PUC and REM II videos have a good take on MUC.

this is the newer one with Rob Pincus
http://icestore.us/Extreme-Close-Quarters-Concepts.html

Thanks!

[LOKNLOD]

There have been some great observations in this thread thusfar so I'm going to just bulletpoint a few takeaways I had. i liked phil's comment about it being an audit. It truly is a crucible. It was certainly a very humbling and eye-opening experience for me. I look at everything shooting and self-defense related through an entirely different filter now. Taking ECQC is kind of like taking the red pill and leaving the Matrix, if you'll permit a a silly movie reference.

--My physical fitness sucked to an embarrassing degree. Despite being a younger guy I gassed quickly and recovered slowly. At that fitness level, any fight thats more than a few seconds puts me at a huge disadvantage. I'm working on it, but it is a very slow.

--The need for multiple layers of capability. Life is not a digital on-off switch between being Mr. Innocent Bystander and hosing a bad guy with a mag dump. It is an analog continuum. Only having those two settings means that you're not always using the "right tool" for the job. It's like trying to fix a car and finding your toolbox only contains a polishing cloth and a sledgehammer.
Awareness (with understanding of what you're noticing), verbal skills (and knowing when not to use them), possible non-lethal options, physical skills to grapple/fight, knives, guns, they all play a role.

--I did start trying to figure out how to incorporate a workable non-utility knife into my gear. I settled on a Spyderco P'Kal as well. Being a folder and not being limited to a sheath I can clip it in a pocket in many places where I'm not supposed to have a gun (and the consequences of carrying outweigh, for me, the risk of not carrying a firearm). I really need a trainer too, I haven't cut myself but I did nick the tail of a cover shirt pretty bad. I liked that shirt...

--I thought the immediate debriefing after the 2-on-1 evo was really eye opening as to how difficult it can be to articulate your actions post-incident.

--Make sure you get a FIST helmet that still has the padding for the top of your head.

I almost didn't sign up for the class because I knew I wasn't in the shape I wanted to be, but I am glad I did it anyway. After day one, part of me didn't want to go back for day two. After it was all over, my immediate reaction was "I don't want to do that again" and I was surprised by how many repeat students the class gets. As time passed, I understand, and I do want to go back. Its an iterative process to learn what the class has to offer, I think. I don't know if I'll be able to attend the next one that's close, but if I can't make it, I'm really going to feel like I'm missing out.

[JodyH]

I'm going to try and hit up another ECQC as soon as possible (hopefully 1st quarter '13).
I'm solid on the shooting concepts.
I absorbed and retained about 50% of the MUC/PUC information, I have the general concepts down for the next 25% and I'm completely lost on the remaining 25%.
While that 50% is still rattling around in my brain I want to take the class again and try to absorb the rest.
That way when I start to really train and ingrain the concepts, I know they are correct.

[JDM]

I'm going to try and hit up another ECQC as soon as possible (hopefully 1st quarter '13).
I'm solid on the shooting concepts.
I absorbed and retained about 50% of the MUC/PUC information, I have the general concepts down for the next 25% and I'm completely lost on the remaining 25%.
While that 50% is still rattling around in my brain I want to take the class again and try to absorb the rest.
That way when I start to really train and ingrain the concepts, I know they are correct.

I'm tempted to take the Vegas class that IRISH is hosting.

[Shellback]

I'm tempted to take the Vegas class that IRISH is hosting.

Beers and steaks at my house afterwards :)

[JodyH]

I'm tempted to take the Vegas class that IRISH is hosting.
Fly or drive?
Because I'd be up for sharing expenses.
PM me.

[JodyH]

My car has room for 4.

[JodyH]

I'm sure the baby would be fine.

1174

[JDM]

Fly or drive?
Because I'd be up for sharing expenses.
PM me.

I'll shoot you a PM when I'm off work.

No you don't, Tom.

[Shellback]

Anyone coming from the 505 is required to bring fresh green chile :)

[JDM]

Anyone coming from the 505 is required to bring fresh green chile :)

DONE'

[Dropkick]

--The need for multiple layers of capability. Life is not a digital on-off switch between being Mr. Innocent Bystander and hosing a bad guy with a mag dump. It is an analog continuum. Only having those two settings means that you're not always using the "right tool" for the job.
Yeah, I saw this at my last ECQC. A couple guys went from "Back up!" to hosing down both role-players regardless of if they were showing hostile intentions at the time. Which would be awesome if you're looking for a manslaughter charge, but not so awesome otherwise.


I'm going to try and hit up another ECQC as soon as possible (hopefully 1st quarter '13).
I'm solid on the shooting concepts.
I absorbed and retained about 50% of the MUC/PUC information, I have the general concepts down for the next 25% and I'm completely lost on the remaining 25%.
While that 50% is still rattling around in my brain I want to take the class again and try to absorb the rest.
That way when I start to really train and ingrain the concepts, I know they are correct.
My experience with taking it a second time, really helped me grasp the material better. I knew better how everything fit together towards the end goal. And I was in better shape, and just generally better prepared. All that made the mental task load of learning / re-learning at lot easier.

[SamuelBLong]

Jody, BOM

I am also considering that class. Even HappyHands is thinking about going to it, she sent me a text tonight about it. That could make for an interesting road trip.

Fresh chile is no problem.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[JDM]

Seriously, I hate you guys.

Come with!

[SouthNarc]

Even HappyHands is thinking about going to it.

I wanna' see HappyHands in some real-time MUC on the Strip shrieking "Fuck your waffles!" at hobos!

This IS shaping up to be a legendary class...

[Kyle Reese]

I wanna' see HappyHands in some real-time MUC on the Strip shrieking "Fuck your waffles!" at hobos!

This IS shaping up to be a legendary class...

LOL!

I def need to take a class, S/N. :cool:

[JodyH]

Roadtrip thread here:
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?6048-Hangover-III-the-505-heads-to-Vegas&p=102395#post102395

[jon volk]

I definitely have ECQC in my list of must take classes.

In terms of gear, I currently carry my gun at 1:00 and reload at 11:00 with a folder in the pocket. From some of the comments I've read, I'm thinking of swapping the 11:00 reload for a fixed blade and reload to the pocket. I'm thinking a blade is more likely to be used than a reload in my daily travels.

[GM77]

Stamina is priority, going to start doing the long/slow/distance training to get my heart rate down so I don't run out of stamina.
Strength matters to a point and going to work on that.
Going to work the contact -> 5yds and 5yds -> contact drill until its burned into my subconscious. Need to work that thumb index so it's 100% all the time. Most double feed malfunctions I witnessed were because of that I believe and not the sim gun.
I feel my holster is vetted, it is a custom built one and I'm going to have the dude make me one for IWB. In one evo the guy said he could not get my sim gun out of it unless he came around my back and pulled it out. I saw a handful of holsters that did not work at all. The gun either fell out during the tussle or came out with the holster!
A knife isn't a free lunch, going to think hard on how I carry and what I carry. Almost half the people ended up getting stabbed with their own knife.
My shooting fundamentals are good and whatever I'm doing is working so going to keep at it and head in the same direction.
I need some hand to hand and ground training. Something where I engage another human being that wants to win in a physical full contact contest so I get used to that stress level.

[JodyH]

I definitely have ECQC in my list of must take classes.

In terms of gear, I currently carry my gun at 1:00 and reload at 11:00 with a folder in the pocket. From some of the comments I've read, I'm thinking of swapping the 11:00 reload for a fixed blade and reload to the pocket. I'm thinking a blade is more likely to be used than a reload in my daily travels.
As has been stated in another post, Tom Givens students have an admirable record in gunfight wins and the vast majority were just that, GUN fights where nobody became entangled and knives were a non-factor.
Juts like Todd's AFHF is 100% shooting, ECQC is pretty much 100% worst case scenario hands on with a determined (and often skilled) opponent (or two).

A extended gun fight requiring a reload is pretty uncommon, but so is being mugged by two BJJ practitioners who are willing to be shot and stabbed to steal your wallet. Both of those are statistical outliers.
You'll just have to get the training and make your decisions from there.

I've always been comfortable with 10-15 rounds and no reload for carry.
Since I rarely carried a reload anyway, it was an easy decision for me to completely skip the spare mag and carry a center line fixed blade instead.
Factor in that I can't carry a gun 8 hours M-F, but I can get away with having a few knives and it was a no-brainer.

Your situation may be different and you should tailor your gear to work within those parameters.

[TGS]

A extended gun fight requiring a reload is pretty uncommon, but so is being mugged by two BJJ practitioners who are willing to be shot and stabbed to steal your wallet.

Who also know where your gun is and go for it before you even go for it....

[LOKNLOD]

I think keeping the balance of remembering that in many ways the ECQC evos are a "perfect storm" so to speak, and not over reacting in life changes aftewards, is important. There's a trap that can be fallen into trying to end up with 5 knives and 3 guns available from every angle in every situation, yelling "BACK THE FAWK UP!" when the carhop brings the drink to your car at Sonic, and generally being an BJJ-obsessed paranoid weirdo. Thankfully I think most people taking the class are already squared away enough to avoid heading down that path.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Stamina is priority, going to start doing the long/slow/distance training to get my heart rate down so I don't run out of stamina.
Strength matters to a point and going to work on that.



I'm just going to throw this out there as something to consider...

I think a lot of guys misunderstand the roles of strength and stamina in this kind of activity. I'm hoping this doesn't turn in to a massive derail but I think it's worth considering in the context of ECQC so I wanted to talk about it a little bit anyway.


To give a bit of context...there was a guy at my particular ECQC who is coincidentally almost exactly the same size and shape as me. He is also a dedicated trail runner and does ten times as much running work as I do. He's in to the crossfit style workout...total "metcon" guy.

I run a little. But my workouts (when I'm not being lazy and working on business instead of myself) are primarily olympic weightlifting style stuff. I don't move huge weight - in fact by lifting standards I don't even move big weight. Max squats for me are 300 pounds - although I do go right to the ground with them, like WAY past 90 degrees in the knees.

And I found I could work that guy pretty good. I think it's fair to say that I could manhandle him pretty hard, and he does WAY more stamina-focused stuff than I do. And I was the training dummy, so I'd get worked by Craig for five minutes first, and then go beat on him. And I still could. And this is why I could beat on him:

Strength is more important than endurance, because strength, in an ECQC context, IS endurance, but endurance is not strength.

To survive ECQC requires you to do a whole bunch of really demanding bursts of effort. Effectively, you do extremely awkward compound lifts in bizarre positions, for two to five minutes, say.

Well, if you have trained your body to move three or four hundred pounds, and you're suddenly asked to move another body that maybe weighs two hundred pounds, you might not be working at your max. Maybe you're only doing half effort (depending on the position and the specific maneuver you're attempting).

If you have not increased your strength to that level, you ARE putting out max effort. You will be gassed within seconds.


A good illustration of this is the "50 year old firefighter from Boston vs the 8 year old skip-rope champion" dilemma.

That 8 year old has cardio that would obliterate any of us, let alone the cigar-smoking, retirement-approaching beer connoisseur in this example. But he's probably a beefy dude with a solid bit of muscle laid by.

So if you gave them each a fifteen pound weight and told them to do overhead presses, who would give out first? The kid, obviously.

So even doing low weights at high reps, there is a huge advantage conferred by strength. It allows you to operate your body at a lower percentage of maximum effort for the same effect. Basically, you have built a big motor, and now you can under-drive it.


I believe that a lot of guys think in terms of "increasing their cardio" because it's generally more embarrassing to say "I'm weak" than it is to say "I need to work on my stamina". But I would argue that for ECQC, the type of fitness you need is not really endurance training. It's strength training. If you're getting gassed during ECQC, chances are pretty good (IMO) that your problem is NOT insufficient endurance. It's insufficient strength.

[Shellback]

Strength is more important than endurance, because strength, in an ECQC context, IS endurance, but endurance is not strength.

But I would argue that for ECQC, the type of fitness you need is not really endurance training. It's strength training. If you're getting gassed during ECQC, chances are pretty good (IMO) that your problem is NOT insufficient endurance. It's insufficient strength.

These 2 things really stuck out to me. Been doing a lot of reading over on TPI and seen many comments with the same sentiment.

Personally I've been working on my strength and also upping my max stroke volume to increase stamina.

[Cecil Burch]

Misanthropist - I couldn't disagree more. You seem to be making the question of strength vs long term endurance as an either/or proposition in ECQC and it most certainly isn't. For every situation where strength is king, I can find one where strength is almost irrelevant.

When you are trying to keep on your feet against two others trying to take you down, you can be monstrously strong, but if you are lacking in technique, or get too tired, you will go down. I have seen it happen numerous times. Also, if you are on the ground against someone bigger than you and who has dominant position, and your face is being smashed into the FIST helmet, and your chest is being crushed, strength probably won't get you out of the there, but being able to keep your lungs going will buy you time to find the space you need. Two weeks ago I rolled against a 280 pound black belt who was also 12 years younger than me. No amount of realistic strength was going to help, but proper technique backed by a decent amount of cardio kept me in the fight.

You talked about outdoing your more stamina capable training partner. The reason might not have anything to do with his conditioning vs your strength. It could very well be that he felt more stress and pressure which has a tendency to drain stamina pretty fast, while you felt less stress and conversely did not "waste" gas. A few years ago at my BJJ gym, a guy who was in every way a physical specimen started training. He worked as a personal trainer, regularly competed in things like off road bike races, and had a body fat level of about 5%. He was always gassed after about 90 seconds or rolling, while chubby me could go on and on. He mentally burned through his reserves because of over tension, wasted motion, and mental stress (his ego couldn't handle being tapped like a typewriter by someone who was not his physical equal). The same thing happens at ECQC constantly.

Also, you made a point to say the its easier for someone to say they need more cardio beuse it is less embarrassing than to admit they are weak, yet I find a ton of people, especially on TPI who admit to precisely that and make it a point to ask for advice on how to get stronger.

And the high rep weight work you mention, even at something like 20 reps is only going to last for a minute or two, not the sometimes longer period of some Evos. At some point, pure cardio comes into play.

To clarify, I am not saying cardio is better or more important. What ECQC really does is continually show as an audit what kind of balance is needed, and where the participant is lacking at that moment. Sometimes, you go through the course and say "I need strength work". Sometimes you say " I need to learn grappling ". Other times it might be that a cardio/metcon type program is called for. As in most things, we need to continually find our balance.

[Shellback]

Thanks for your input Cecil... I have a lot to learn in the upcoming class. :D

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I am not arguing strength vs skill, I am arguing strength vs endurance. Craig is a lot smaller than me and he could tie me in knots while smoking a cigarette and reading a book. Obviously skill is the critical factor there.

But that does not mean that there is not something to be gained from physical strength, of course. My point is that if you intend to condition your body to assist you in execution of the skills you will develop either at ECQC or in BJJ or what have you, in my experience, olympic lifting benefits you more than traditional cardio.

I think that should be fairly evident if we ask the following question: Given equal levels of training, who is more likely to win in an ECQC EVO, a guy who has devoted enough time and energy to place mid-pack in the Boston Marathon, or a guy who has devoted enough time and energy to place mid-pack at the New York State Powerlifting Championships? Are we seriously going to say that the marathoner, with his supreme endurance, has an equal chance against a guy who probably spends little time on endurance training (especially compared to a marathoner), but who has greater strength than 99.9% of humanity? Of course not. So what I am saying is this: if you are going to look at a physical conditioning program designed to further your ECQC efforts, IMO your time is probably better spent on increasing strength than increasing stamina, and specifically I think olympic style lifting lends itself very well to the kind of effort expended in ECQC.

My post is not intended to be a list of "everything that is required to succeed at ECQC". It is simply a comparison of two possible approaches to one aspect of ECQC. It's the equivalent of discussing drawstroke; that's obviously not the single thing that will make you a good shooter, but can we look at various approaches to draw strokes and determine which is more beneficial? Absolutely.



What I might also add is that I think cardiovascular training is actually critical for ECQC...but not in the way most think. I think that training your heart and lungs to maximize your VO2 is very important but I don't think that is best done through traditional endurance sports like running. I think you can actually do pretty well with olympic lifting and that is partly why I will tend to say "worry less about endurance and more about strength". I think you get a greater range of benefits from strength training than from endurance training, and while TPI people may be seeking out ways to get stronger, I think MOST guys who get gassed in a fight come away telling themselves that what they need is more running because I think for MOST guys it's less emasculating than saying "I was too weak".

[Cecil Burch]

You are missing the point.

It is about balance. Lets use your example of the marathoner vs the weight lifter. If the marathoner can keep moving in the evo and not let the strength guy get his hands on him, I'd say he has a damn good chance of "winning", especially if like many power lifters, the lifter has the cardio of about two minutes worth of movement in his tank. Or do you think he could actually catch up to the marathoner? Of course not, that's ludicrous. And if both men are approximately the same size, the above is even more true. If the lifter does grab him, different story of course.

And to take your example further, lets now stipulate that the marathoner takes two months worth of private lessons from a top Greco wrestler. He does NOT add to his overall strength, but through skill maximizes his ability to "win". Top cardio plus a tiny bit of skill goes a far longer way than top cardio plus two months of strength work.

It's balance. To have the best chance of survival, both men need work.

As for Olympic lifting increasing endurance, again it is only for a minute or two at most. If that is all the fight you want to prep for, then go ahead. I prefer to be as well rounded as possible, especially since I have seen enough evos go far longer than that.

And on top of that, Olympic lifting is one of the most skill intensive methods around. Doing it improperly or without proper coaching is foolish. If you are going to work on skill, why not something more direct?

[Maple Syrup Actual]

No, I understand. My post was directed at "the average participant" that I have seen. Yes, if Hossein Rezazadeh shows up and wants to improve, obviously I'm not going to say "work on your strength".

But in general, my thinking is that most guys will benefit more from squats than jogging, and my concern is that most guys tend to associate "out of breath" with "need to run more" when it's often "need to be stronger". I think this is a very common mistake and the goal of talking about the importance of strength is really to drive in the understanding that "gassed" is often "weak" not "low endurance" and running five miles a day may not help a bit.

Although as you've pointed out, there is also "need to relax under pressure", which is a whole other issue.

I would not recommend oly lifts at a world class level or anything...I do however believe in a critical foundation of strength that is quicker and easier to achieve through compound lifts than any other approach that I am personally familiar with.

[JHC]

But misanthropist has a point regarding an earlier post's plan to take up long slow distance training for fighting endurance - aerobic fitness, especially that gained through distance running is a different cat. Fighting endurance requires a lot of tolerance for the anaerobic environment with all the lactic acid buildup and using the whole body to struggle vs legs and lungs.

When I was close to the training of free style wrestlers they did a ton of conditioning that resembled Crossfit more than cross country. They did some running, but a lot of strength work and strength endurance work with their whole fighting body. Circuits that might include a sprint up a hill, firemans carry lift a partner a half dozen times right, then left, run down the hill, sprint back up, repeat until puking. Pullups, chinups, farmers walk gripping sandbags, bear crawling all over the place, lots of lifting partners, and of course the mat work.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

That is EXACTLY the kind of training I would recommend if it's available.

[Dropkick]

Between the 8 months I took my first ECQC and second ECQC, I'll be honest, I didn't lift or run.

However, the last 4 months of that 8, I was able to train twice a week in Crazy Monkey Defense. So to me, regular sparring kept me from gassing all weekend between being the demo dummy, practicing the techniques, and all the evos. Who could have guess, fighting can you a better fighter...

What I'm saying is, clearly there isn't just -one- answer.

[JodyH]

I spent the 7 months prior to ECQC on push-ups, pull-ups, sit-ups (old school calisthenics) and mountainbike commuting.
Made it to 130 continuous push-ups, 35 pull-ups and I can do sit-ups until boredom sets in.
Worked well for me, I never felt like I was being overpowered and I didn't hit empty, one of my evo's was over 3 minutes of ground work (against a more skilled opponent) and while I was winded I wasn't ready to collapse.
I'm staying on that regimen and just adding some BJJ work 2 days a week for a skills base.

[Dropkick]

I spent the 7 months prior to ECQC on push-ups, pull-ups, sit-ups (old school calisthenics) and mountainbike commuting.
Made it to 130 continuous push-ups, 35 pull-ups and I can do sit-ups until boredom sets in.
Worked well for me, I never felt like I was being overpowered and I didn't hit empty, one of my evo's was over 3 minutes of ground work (against a more skilled opponent) and while I was winded I wasn't ready to collapse.
I'm staying on that regimen and just adding some BJJ work 2 days a week for a skills base.

That's some awesome work!!

[JodyH]

First night of BJJ.
2 hours on the mat and I learned a lot about escaping the guard and escaping side mounts (both situations I was clueless about in ECQC).
Nice.

[TCinVA]

But misanthropist has a point regarding an earlier post's plan to take up long slow distance training for fighting endurance - aerobic fitness, especially that gained through distance running is a different cat. Fighting endurance requires a lot of tolerance for the anaerobic environment with all the lactic acid buildup and using the whole body to struggle vs legs and lungs.

I don't disagree with that at all...but based on my reading at TPI and personal experience I'll give my opinion that the LSD work forms a foundation of cardiovascular conditioning that helps with endurance and recovery. One you can then build on with more intense cardio work. I'm by no means a great physical specimen, but during ECQC I didn't gas. I attribute that primarily to the fact that for the last year and a half I've been doing a great deal of LSD work, primarily aimed at burning off calories and stress. Plus any exercise I can do while watching my iPad is pretty damn cool, I think. It paid off in that physically when I was running drills and evos against people who were in better shape than I was, I still had the ability to use brute force to try and impose my will.

What I didn't have was skill, and while I could physically stay in it, the lack of skill made me easy prey for the guys who had some BJJ/grappling skill when I was in a disadvantaged position. Usually because I did something dumb that put myself there.

I'll also note that I've also spent as much time as I can lifting in that same time period, focusing on big compound lifts that involve as many muscle groups as possible...which also has some significant conditioning benefits. The impact of that was also felt during ECQC. Having an almost total lack of skill in the grappling/BJJ environment, when I had success it was usually attributable to being able to apply sufficient brute force to get the job done.

The thing I really began to understand about BJJ/Grappling is that there's a specific type of strength training that you learn in performing it. You're learning to recruit and efficiently apply strength from your largest muscle groups in ways that you can't learn by using a barbell. That has notable impact. Being used as a demonstrator for SouthNarc when he was coaching drills individually, the benefits that gives in terms of the strength one can apply in the clench became crystal clear. From a pure physical perspective, I could easily pick SN up and toss him as he's a good bit smaller than me...but put us in an ECQC evo even with him working at around half his capacity and me at 100% and he'd quickly have me tied in a knot and tapping out.

[JHC]

Sure. Good points. You were running and lifting (compound lifts). That's never a bad all around approach. I'm not against cardio as part of a workout regimen. Re Southnarc's skill to tie you up; abeit your bigger and stronger. That was always true with the wrestlers. Very common for a stronger but less competent wrestler to just be owned by the super technique.

[JodyH]

In my years of working oilfield construction crews I've come to appreciate "working strength" vs. "gym strength".
There is a difference.
While the guy with working strength cannot apply nearly the same force as the gym strong guy in straight on applications (pushing, pulling, pressing) when it comes to applying force while in compromised positions the working strength is often superior.
Having the strength and applying it can be completely different skills.
I've seen the gym guys bend (big oilfield) wrenches when they can set their feet, square up their shoulders and pull.
That same guy might have hell busting a bolt loose when he's working in a contorted position and then a wiry mechanic comes along and makes it look easy.
There has to be a balance in your training to optimize brute strength, applying that strength and the cardio to support that effort for an extended amount of time.
Quite the conundrum.
:cool:

[JHC]

In my years of working oilfield construction crews I've come to appreciate "working strength" vs. "gym strength".
There is a difference.
While the guy with working strength cannot apply nearly the same force as the gym strong guy in straight on applications (pushing, pulling, pressing) when it comes to applying force while in compromised positions the working strength is often superior.
Having the strength and applying it can be completely different skills.
I've seen the gym guys bend (big oilfield) wrenches when they can set their feet, square up their shoulders and pull.
That same guy might have hell busting a bolt loose when he's working in a contorted position and then a wiry mechanic comes along and makes it look easy.
There has to be a balance in your training to optimize brute strength, applying that strength and the cardio to support that effort for an extended amount of time.
Quite the conundrum.
:cool:

Even with the most simple presses, Charles Poliquin has written that 80% of strength improvements are neural. That is they aren't from stronger muscle fiber as much as one's nervous system is learning to use the muscles, tendons, etc more skillfully with better coordination to apply the force to move the heavier and heavier load. That should explain this functional strength thing as the coordination requirements of the challenges you described are much more complex than say a bench press.

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/ArticlesMultimedia/Articles.aspx

He is very much biased towards improvement of athletic performance vs bodybuilding. Last I saw he was quite hostile to Crossfit type workouts vs more traditional strength training.

[Cecil Burch]

But in general, my thinking is that most guys will benefit more from squats than jogging, and my concern is that most guys tend to associate "out of breath" with "need to run more" when it's often "need to be stronger". I think this is a very common mistake and the goal of talking about the importance of strength is really to drive in the understanding that "gassed" is often "weak" not "low endurance" and running five miles a day may not help a bit.



And just as often, "gassed" is exactly that - low endurance. Is it sometimes a symptom of being weak? Sure. But only sometimes. As I pointed out, sometimes it is mental. Sometimes it is a failure of a skillset, like grappling. And, many, many times it is because the person has low cardio. So, again, as I have pointed out, we need to address ALL the areas. Getting hyper-focused on one, whether that is strength, BJJ, cardio, shooting, or whatever, leads you down a narrow path of failure.

It's interesting that none of the people who are most experienced in ECQC, those who have acted as AIs, who have run EVOS, and some of who actually have Craig's approval to go out and teach an "ECQC" course if they want, agree with you. In fact, of the three out of that group that are the most vocal in championing getting stronger none advocate Oly lifting as any kind of real cardio booster. Even more to the point, all three of them work LSD as their foundation for cardio. All of them will go on and on how you need to lift heavy weights to get stronger, and that will help you, but not in any energy conditioning way.

Even more interesting is that of the world class S&C coaches out there, pretty much none of them use Oly lifting to improve stamina. Bill Starr, Jim Schmitz (former Olympic coach), Martin Rooney (who has trained more fighters currently than almost any other person today), and Dan John all do something else. Dan John has even made it a point in a number of his essays in Never Let Go for example, where he says when he focuses heavy on building strength, he notices people get fatter and often can't even walk a flight a stairs without wheezing. And this from a man who does a lot of Oly lifting with an ungodly amount of weight. Does not sound like me the best plan to keep from gassing out in ECQC when experts like that make those points.

I also gave you concrete examples from evos and similar situations where a greater emphasis on strength did nothing to help the situation, but you ignored those to keep hitting your point. A point you are now changing to include crossfit style work, when in your previous posts you said just strength training was needed.

Once again, it is about balance. For some people, added strength is needed. For some good cardio, that is best addressed by specific cardio-centric training, is needed. Being dogmatic and telling people just to do Oly lifts does people a great disservice. It is no different than telling people that all they need to do to do well in ECQC is to do BJJ. It is a multi faceted, interdisciplinary work that needs a lot of pieces tweaked up to succeed. Kind of like life.

[Cecil Burch]

But misanthropist has a point regarding an earlier post's plan to take up long slow distance training for fighting endurance - aerobic fitness, especially that gained through distance running is a different cat. Fighting endurance requires a lot of tolerance for the anaerobic environment with all the lactic acid buildup and using the whole body to struggle vs legs and lungs.



But more and more studies are decisively showing that LSD training builds the foundation and prepares your body to get the most out of shorter, more intense cardio. In your examples of the wrestlers, I will bet that all of them already had an enormous "wellspring" that they could draw on to do their crossfit style training. In the original tabata study, what people who jumped on that to say that all you need to work cardio was 4 minutes ignored or missed, was that the test subjects were elite level cyclists who had already built a base.

Many MMA fight trainers are going back and adding in LSD training blocks because they are finding it is needed.

I hate LSD training. I loathe the time needed for it, and when experts on TPI started talking about LSD and it's importance, I fought them every step of the way. Sometimes in public posts, sometimes in PMs, and sometimes over the phone. I didn't want to admit they were right. Well, they are. And when I started doing it, it made a definitive difference in my capability. And a lot of people had the same experience. And to address specificity, we were using how we did in ECQC evos as the yardstick. NO ONE felt it was a waste of time doing LSD after.

[TCinVA]

It's interesting that none of the people who are most experienced in ECQC, those who have acted as AIs, who have run EVOS, and some of who actually have Craig's approval to go out and teach an "ECQC" course if they want, agree with you. In fact, of the three out of that group that are the most vocal in championing getting stronger none advocate Oly lifting as any kind of real cardio booster. Even more to the point, all three of them work LSD as their foundation for cardio.


If I had to pick one thing to do in prep for ECQC, it would be great big heaping gobs of LSD.

I really can't emphasize enough just how much of a difference it made for me in terms of what I can do physically. I enjoy the weight lifting a lot more because it's a much bigger ego boost to set a new PR in a squat than to run for 90 minutes, but in truth the ability I have now to blast out miles and at the end of it feel like I haven't really done anything is just fantastic, and I've noticed the impact it's had on my ability to do everything from ECQC to moving furniture to umpteen hours in a day cleaning up storm damage.

LSD isn't the same as fight training, but it seems to be the thing that produces optimal efficiency in the major systems that are heavily called upon when you're doing something extremely physical like trying to stop a dude who is shooting you in the balls with a sims gun. Without the LSD work I would have been a complete wreck in every evo. With it, I was able to at least continue to try even despite a complete lack of skill because I still had the physical ability to make the other guy(s) work for it.


But more and more studies are decisively showing that LSD training builds the foundation and prepares your body to get the most out of shorter, more intense cardio.

This is the magic of LSD and why it's my first suggestion to anyone who has noticed my reduction in size and who asks what they should do. Simply walking up an incline at a reasonable pace can get someone started. Low impact, low stress, no big deal...and then as they adapt they find they have to gradually increase the intensity of the exercise to keep the target heart range. I used to be able to do it by walking briskly. Now I have to flat out run for a period of time to get my heart in the target range and then dial it back to a jog to keep it there...and even then after a few minutes it starts dropping below the range and I have to do a minute or two of hard running again to get it back up.

I wish I'd read Larry's article about LSD ten or twenty years ago.

It's something that anyone can do right away, it's unlikely to cause injury, and it's extremely effective in even a short period of time. What's not to love?

[JHC]

I think that the MMA world includes the real SME's about fighting conditioning. Running is certainly part of it. They make a science out this like some us do with pistol shooting.

As an old track/cross country runner I interpret LSD to be serious mileage. 25 a week would be about the floor during light cycles. For general conditioning I'd say 25 miles a week to on the high side and that before one goes over that; better to work in some very different training. So I may be a victim of old jargon.

Tim Kennedy explains here that he considers explosive power to be the most important attribute. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz1C41Sh7mw His endurance is obviously extremely good also and he runs too. (He is an SF NCO and MMA fighter)

Oly lifts are all about explosive power. They may not be the only way (ie plyos). The somewhat simpler to coach lifts like the power clean which are sort of building blocks to Oly lifts is one of the most common tools Div 1 football and the NFL use to develop explosive power. And they are not training for "gym strength" but for complex application of power in a dynamic combat like sport. Southnarc's approved instructors may not have the background in sports conditioning that the high levels of trainers in MMA and the NFL have. And there is probably something to be learned from these specialists. Just maybe.

But endurance is very important and running is one way to develop some aspects of that. LSD builds aerobic fitness. At what time frame do we go into the aerobic zone? I cannot recall off the top of my head. It's what, 4-10 minutes into exertion isn't it? It's anaerobic up til that and that's a sort of muscular endurance and tolerance that needs some different tools conditioning wise. That's why milers have a strong distance base but do a TON of intervals of much shorter distances like 400 x 10 etc.

I guess we'd like to not have to dip into aerobic conditioning while STILL in a ground fight. ;) But good to be prepared for it too. I think running is cool. I think some are giving it too much credit is all.

[JHC]

TC - My hunch and I'm just as AH with an opinion here is that you are naturally big and strong enough that the distance running rounded you out fitness wise to have a greater impact.

[Cecil Burch]

. Southnarc's approved instructors may not have the background in sports conditioning that the high levels of trainers in MMA and the NFL have. And there is probably something to be learned from these specialists. Just maybe.



Without a doubt there is much to be learned from those specialists. And most of the guys working the ECQC matter rely on them a lot. I don't see where anything I have written would leave anyone to believe I think otherwise. As I posted in some of my earlier responses, I cite a number of those authorities. Those authorities actually fuel a lot of my response. These specialists are actually the ones making the re concentrated push for LSD as an important part of top conditioning, as a matter of fact, as I mentioned in my previous posts. However, that does not mean everything they do translates perfectly. The ECQC coursework presents some unique difficulties that for those who have not been through it might not realize how unique it is.

And when it comes to those approved instructors, you might be surprised at the experience, knowledge, background,formal education, and connections of the TPI guys I am speaking of. Their depth and breadth of knowledge is on a similar level to a professional coach. Especially when it comes to the MMA side of the equation.

What's more, they have taken that level of knowledge and applied to directly to the ECQC environment so it's not really much of a guessing game.

[JodyH]

Only thing worse than a caliber war is a exercise (or heaven forbid a nutrition) war.
Besides, everybody knows Jazzercise/Tae Bo is where it's at bitches.
Leg warmers and wife beaters FTMFW!

[JHC]

Only thing worse than a caliber war is a exercise (or heaven forbid a nutrition) war.
Besides, everybody knows Jazzercise/Tae Bo is where it's at bitches.
Leg warmers and wife beaters FTMFW!

This is a kickass thread Jody. Guns, knives, conditioning. That ain't too shabby.

[JHC]

Without a doubt there is much to be learned from those specialists. And most of the guys working the ECQC matter rely on them a lot. I don't see where anything I have written would leave anyone to believe I think otherwise. As I posted in some of my earlier responses, I cite a number of those authorities. Those authorities actually fuel a lot of my response. These specialists are actually the ones making the re concentrated push for LSD as an important part of top conditioning, as a matter of fact, as I mentioned in my previous posts. However, that does not mean everything they do translates perfectly. The ECQC coursework presents some unique difficulties that for those who have not been through it might not realize how unique it is.

And when it comes to those approved instructors, you might be surprised at the experience, knowledge, background,formal education, and connections of the TPI guys I am speaking of. Their depth and breadth of knowledge is on a similar level to a professional coach. Especially when it comes to the MMA side of the equation.

What's more, they have taken that level of knowledge and applied to directly to the ECQC environment so it's not really much of a guessing game.

Great points too. I might be surprised. I'd be more surprised at suggestions that "power" lifts aren't very useful for conditioning a fighter. I saw that point counterpoint with misanthropist's posts and just rose to the bait "like a bass hitting a plug". I have no recollection of who suggested what exactly.

The most impractical thing with the Oly lifts is finding good instruction in them. Safer to teach yourself knife fighting than teach yourself the snatch or clean and jerk without a totally qualified coach.

I appreciate all the input.

BTW this Dark Star knife sheath Volgrad reviewed carries the inexpensive ESEE Izula almost invisibly under almost any untucked shirt. Low priced too.

[EVP]

What does LSD stand for? Could not figure it out.

Also I have a quick question on deploying a clinch pick in an evo. Do y'all find it easier to kinda walk your hand along your body to the knife then grab it and deploy it or do you just go for it and draw it? I was practicing with a trainer blade and doing some grappling with a training partner and found that sometimes the blade handle would get caught up in my t-shirt. Just wondering what others experiences have been?

I have yet to make it to a ECQC course due to work and scheduling, but hopefully i can in 2013.

[Dropkick]

LSD is Long Slow Distance running.

[jetfire]

Only thing worse than a caliber war is a exercise (or heaven forbid a nutrition) war.

RUAAGHGHGHG PALEO VS LEANGAINS ROUND 1: FIGHT!

BRO DO YOU EVEN LIFT

...sorry, I don't know what came over me. I felt like I was back in the fitness section of bullshido there for a second.

[JHC]

RUAAGHGHGHG PALEO VS LEANGAINS ROUND 1: FIGHT!

BRO DO YOU EVEN LIFT

...sorry, I don't know what came over me. I felt like I was back in the fitness section of bullshido there for a second.

Paleo rocks. All you need.

[jetfire]

Yeah, but I like pasta. And I run 5k races, so I need carbs.

[JConn]

Paleo rocks. All you need.

I've got one word for you.... Cookies....

I've always wanted to do paleo but I lack discipline.

[LOKNLOD]

LSD is Long Slow Distance running.

I was tripping acid hoping to be a badass for six weeks before somebody explained that one to me.

[Dropkick]

I was tripping acid hoping to be a badass for six weeks before somebody explained that one to me.

http://cdn.publishme.se/cdn/9-2/944384/images/2009/dr_gonzo_acid_36819618.jpg

[NickA]

LSD is Long Slow Distance running.

I've got the "S" covered, need to work on the other two.

[aboveandbeyond]

Paleo rocks. All you need.

Man..Paleo was rough the first or two. Absolutely brutal, no carbs, no starches...

But after, I felt amazing. Clean, refreshed, Detoxed.

[JHC]

Man..Paleo was rough the first or two. Absolutely brutal, no carbs, no starches...

But after, I felt amazing. Clean, refreshed, Detoxed.

+1 but with Paleo you can get a lot of carbs from the fruits and veg. Man, when I fall off the wagon like at a recent Christmas party I had a food hangover the next morning.

[JHC]

Yeah, but I like pasta. And I run 5k races, so I need carbs.

Yeah I was just taking the bait you posted about Paleo wars. ;) Your young and a competitive athlete.

But another reason I like Paleo 90% is it leaves 10% for beer.

[TCinVA]

I realize I never addressed my post-ECQC changes....so here goes:

Equipment -

I'm pretty happy with my equipment choices. I didn't identify a need to change anything in terms of what I carry or how I carry it in ECQC. I do want to get one of the new Clinch-Piks that is forthcoming to replace my BOB, but other than that my setup works.

Training -

I need to work on the number 2 position as I struggled with a consistent index during the class. Part of it was, I'm sure, the way my shoulder was acting up. I see the utility of the number 2 position and why Craig teaches it the way that he does. The first time we went to the ground it became obvious.

I'm going to try and find some decent BJJ training in my area and start working on that. I'm hoping to do that after the first of the year. Cecil B and some others on TPI have been instrumental in helping me figure out how to go about it. I will probably do some striking (something realistic like Mui-Thai...not TKD) training as well.

I'm going to have to find a way to train a lot of the stuff that Craig presented with another person. I have a couple of buddies I might be able to convince to help train with the disarm/weapon protection stuff because that's not something you're going to be good at after just the ECQC presentation. I absolutely understand why Craig has so many repeat customers in ECQC because lots of guys have just nowhere else they can work that stuff.

I'm hoping I can attend some of the training group sessions for the NOVA area...but I'll have to see to that as they come.


Conditioning -

I was pretty pleased with my conditioning in ECQC. I could certainly do better by dropping more adipose and I'm working on that now. I will continue to work LSD and lift to get as strong as I can. Actually doing the previously cited MA/MMA training will have strength and conditioning benefits that go along with it, and that will help too.