Trapdoor Springfield vs Sharps & other singleshots durability/toughness?

[Dov]

Wondering if anyone has any idea on relative toughness of Trapdoor vs other military single shots of that general era?

I'd think Rolling Block might be near top, but haven't yet owned any of these, one of the many things on my wish list to get is small collection of military singleshots.

[Jim Watson]

Toughness is an interesting concept I have not seen before. The Trapdoor action is not as strong as those others but it is adequate for black powder.
How many shots, how much rough handling, though?

[fatdog]

Wondering if anyone has any idea on relative toughness of Trapdoor vs other military single shots of that general era?

I'd think Rolling Block might be near top, but haven't yet owned any of these, one of the many things on my wish list to get is small collection of military singleshots.

I would think Sharps and highwalls are the toughest of that era. That design will certainly stand more pressure than others because of the falling block, in fact the highwall is still made or was still made for modern smokeless cartridges by Winchester until a few years ago and the Ruger No 1 is based on it I think.

I have seen the trap door of a trap door go up flying through the air at a cowboy match. This was being fired with black powder and the hinge pin broke. It was one of the reproductions, not an original. No one was injured but that is probably the least durable of the early cartridge designs which is why they are really only suitable for black powder or very low pressure "cowboy" loads.

When I was in to that CAS world I owned a pair of trap doors, a rolling bock, a Sharps and a Highwall. All great fun to shoot. I only used black powder loads in .45-70

[Jim Watson]

The Trapdoor hinge pin is not supposed to carry any firing load. I wonder if the cam to latch set screw used in one family of reproductions instead of a square shank joint might have slipped.

[awp_101]

I've messed a little with Rolling Blocks, tilting blocks (Martini Cadet), falling blocks (replica Sharps, replica 1885) and Trapdoors. I'm far more comfortable placing my face behind a falling block or tilting block than anything else. I don't believe any of them handle gas from a ruptured cartridge very well though.

The ASSRA Forum (https://forum.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl) is a good place to poke around.

[psalms144.1]

I would not want to use a Trapdoor for any kind of serious shooting, even with blackpowder loads, given that there are Sharps and Highwalls available. The Sharps locks up like a bank vault - even the 160ish year old blackpowder-to-50/70 conversion cavalry carbine in my basement. It has obviously been used hard during its very long life, and it still locks up tight. I hardly ever shoot it anymore, just because I'm too lazy to load and clean up after black powder cartridge, but when I do, I never have any concerns about "hurting" the rifle.

Heck, even the old Remington Rolling Blocks seemed like they were built "stronger" than the Trapdoors.

[Dov]

Wasn't looking to shoot heavy modern loads in one.

Though strength of action is of interest, guess I was thinking more how they stood up to use and abuse by troops in the field.

IDK why but the Martini actions and trapdoors appeal to me.

It's probably Ross Seyfrieds fault :cool: at least the Martini's and falling blocks.

[Dov]

gah now I can't unsee the typo for thread title and can't edit it

[awp_101]

gah now I can't unsee the typo for thread title and can't edit it

Report it and a mod can fix it.

[TGS]

The M1869 Werndl is generally held to be the most robust rifle of that era. The factory demonstration involved throwing it out of the upper stories of the OEWG factory (Steyr) multiple times onto concrete and then shooting it.

[gato naranja]

I've messed a little with Rolling Blocks, tilting blocks (Martini Cadet), falling blocks (replica Sharps, replica 1885) and Trapdoors. I'm far more comfortable placing my face behind a falling block or tilting block than anything else. I don't believe any of them handle gas from a ruptured cartridge very well though.

This. The Ruger No. 1 handles gas okay... most of the old stuff, not so much.

[Malamute]

The question somewhat reminds me of the oft asked "which is stronger, Marlin or Winchester?" The answer is similar, and not always whats expected. One major part of the answer is what exactly do you plan to do with it thats going to challenge its strength or toughness? If using them in original chamberings and standard loads, it doesnt really matter much.

Ive seen a few Sharps that were shot loose. It no doubt required a substantial amount of rounds to do. If in reasonable condition, I wouldnt be concerned about shooting any of them, including a trapdoor, and other than the shear cool factory of a Sharps, the trapdoor would be my first choice for several reasons. One big plus for trapdoors is the number made and cost. Id rather have an original than a copy, I think they are probably better made and cost less. I watch them on GB now and them, decent shooter examples of rifles (not original carbines) can still be had for under a grand, same for the earlier models 1866, 68 and 70 in 50-70 cal. Theres scads of guns and parts still available. They did fine in service once they quit with the copper cased inside primed ammo*, if somewhat outclassed by repeaters by the time they really came into heavy issue and use. They also have absolute metric shtons of history of frontier use. Sharps are the only thing that comes close to me, partly for their use as conversion carbines early on, and as conversions and 74s used as buffalo guns.

Im not concerned about only shooting black, there are a number of smokeless powders that have similar or even milder pressure curves as black, but most people cant be bothered with details, or like to abbreviate to the lowest possible cliffs notes version, so the safest approach for most is to only shoot black.

In any event, I think most make cleaning up black powder more complicated than it needs to be. Its quicker and easier to do than cleaning a jacket or lead fouled modern rifle. No special formulas or cleaners, just hot water, patches, a snug jag or brush that holds patches, Once clean patches come out, run a couple dry ones, let the warmth help dry it, then oil. Nooks and crannies can be cleaned with a toothbrush. Thats all Ive used on original 1886 Winchesters and Colt SAAs and what a friend used on his Sharps and other similar period guns, though he fell into the windex with something fad for a while. pretty much the same results.

The two volume set Firearms of the American West by Garavaglia and Worman has some interesting period accounts of use of all sorts of firearms, very interesting reading. One bit about the early 50-70 trapdoors was regarding an Army officer who was tasked with tracking down and recovering two rifles gambled away by soldiers to a rancher in some of the thickest grizzly country in Wyomings mountains in the late 1860s. The rancher said they truly needed the rifles to help deal with the bears that raided their cattle, it was the only thing they had that reliably killed the bears. The officer relented, saying he agreed and let them keep the rifles.

*The early govt ammo was copper cased and made similar to rimfire ammo with the folded head and rim, with a primer set and crimped into place inside the case, they look like rimfire ammo from the outside, but have the centerfire dimple once fired. The crimps in the sides of the cases just above the rim holds the primer cup in place inside the case. As far as I can deduce, the shells sticking lethally in chambers stopped when they went to "normal" brass outside primed cases.

[Jim Watson]

Sharps 1874 has an advantage in easy removable breechblock for cleaning. At least the modern Shiloh lock plate is so closely inletted, there is no fouling in the lock work, at least the one I saw opened up after considerable shooting did not.

The Rolling Block is strong but a case head separation gives you a box full of gas pressure. But the ones I saw illustrated had been afflicted by bad ammo and sloppy gunsmithing.

[Malamute]

Sharps 1874 has an advantage in easy removable breechblock for cleaning. At least the modern Shiloh lock plate is so closely inletted, there is no fouling in the lock work, at least the one I saw opened up after considerable shooting did not.

The Rolling Block is strong but a case head separation gives you a box full of gas pressure. But the ones I saw illustrated had been afflicted by bad ammo and sloppy gunsmithing.

The shells should keep most fouling out of the action, if they dont, they can be annealed. The 1886s didnt get much fouling in the action, it wiped out pretty easily with a toothbrush and rags.

[fatdog]

The Trapdoor hinge pin is not supposed to carry any firing load. I wonder if the cam to latch set screw used in one family of reproductions instead of a square shank joint might have slipped.

pin could have been a secondary casualty of violent unlocking, not my gun so I did not get to examine it closely except I found the trap door and that pin was definitely cracked or sheared. The very spooked owner got a replacement pin, put it back together and declared its future to be wall hanger. I don't blame him. As I have thought about it I am almost sure it was one of the H&R Officer model repro.

[Dov]

The M1869 Werndl is generally held to be the most robust rifle of that era. The factory demonstration involved throwing it out of the upper stories of the OEWG factory (Steyr) multiple times onto concrete and then shooting it.

Huh, wasn't familiar with that rifle or action at all, thanks for mentioning it.

How is that action commonly described? Its not a bolt action really from what I can tell at the moment, reminds me more of interrupted thread breach loading cannon though don't think it has threads.

[TGS]

Huh, wasn't familiar with that rifle or action at all, thanks for mentioning it.

How is that action commonly described? Its not a bolt action really from what I can tell at the moment, reminds me more of interrupted thread breach loading cannon though don't think it has threads.

It's a tabernacle action.

It's a fairly prolific rifle from that time, so if you're not familiar with it then you're probably unaware of 90% of the early single shot breechloaders that actually existed. The Forgotten Weapons YouTube channel has playlists organized by type of gun, so I'd go look for whatever playlist he might have for blackpowder guns, grab a drink, and let it auto play for the rest of Saturday :cool:

The coolest guns (to me) are the Bavarian M1869 Werder lightning rifle, M1879 Hotchkiss, and 1878 Sharps-Borchardt. The Fruhwürth rifle and Vetterli gets my vote as a close runner up. There's a variety of single shot conversions other than the Trapdoor, but the Trapdoor (Allin action) is probably the best of the conversion designs; there was even a tube magazine fed version of the Springfield trapdoor. Frankly, that entire era is fascinating to me. Nobody knew the best way to do it, so the amount of different designs is not only too many to remember, but just so interesting as well.

I don't know if anything could take the pounding of the Werndl though.

[awp_101]

In any event, I think most make cleaning up black powder more complicated than it needs to be. Its quicker and easier to do than cleaning a jacket or lead fouled modern rifle. No special formulas or cleaners, just hot water, patches, a snug jag or brush that holds patches, Once clean patches come out, run a couple dry ones, let the warmth help dry it, then oil. Nooks and crannies can be cleaned with a toothbrush. Thats all Ive used on original 1886 Winchesters and Colt SAAs and what a friend used on his Sharps and other similar period guns, though he fell into the windex with something fad for a while. pretty much the same results.
Windex with ammonia? IIRC that was the suggested easy button when I first tried BP shooting in the mid-00s.

My shooting buddy was a Corrosion-X dealer so we treated everything with that during the initial clean up of new to us BP guns or anything we shot corrosive ammo through. Hot water and patches after shooting then Corrosion-X in place of something like RemOil or Hoppes. I don't recall either of us having rust or corrosion issues with that procedure.

[awp_101]

I don't know if anything could take the pounding of the Werndl though.
There's a PornHub joke in there somewhere...

[Malamute]

Windex with ammonia? IIRC that was the suggested easy button when I first tried BP shooting in the mid-00s.

My shooting buddy was a Corrosion-X dealer so we treated everything with that during the initial clean up of new to us BP guns or anything we shot corrosive ammo through. Hot water and patches after shooting then Corrosion-X in place of something like RemOil or Hoppes. I don't recall either of us having rust or corrosion issues with that procedure.


Yes, probably windex with ammonia. Im sure it worked, just not sure its really any better than hot water, or perhaps the point would be enough better to warrant the purchase of it over the simplicity and availability of hot water. Id also suggest the proliferation of "great ideas" on cleaning after black powder use serves more to confuse people about how complicated it is, and its really not complicated or difficult at all.

Yeah, most of the "great ideas" work fine, just arent really required to adequately care for guns used with black powder. Most gun oil or solvent will stop black powder fouling from being a problem, Ive used Hoppes No 9 to clean one of mine in hunting camp when I forgot my cleaning stuff, it was gunky black on the patches at first, but worked fine, its just simpler and cheaper to use hot water then oil it.

[Jim Watson]

Diluted Windex with vinegar was the Mike Venturino solution.
I used that for a while, then the store quit carrying it and I settled on diluted M-pro 7. I think the various mixes have a detergent effect to get the water into the fouling. I put up with the stench of Ballistol but won't replace it when used up.

Hot water? Ain't no kettle on muh farin range. A bottle of dilute M-pro 7, a bottle of oil, rod, brush, and patches let me clean on the range while the barrel is still warm and the fouling soft. I generally re-clean at home but not in a rush.

[MandoWookie]

For those curious about the Werndl, capandball on YouTube has a lot of videos on both its history & shooting it.
If his Hungarian accent is too distracting for you, C&Rsenal has this nice brief overview:
https://youtu.be/rRUW5eUZ5cM?si=UYveFw7SkoUTcPyA

[Jim Watson]

The Trapdoor, the Werndl, the Snider, and several other breechloaders were designed to convert the vast stocks of muzzleloaders held by armies who had, not all that long ago, upgraded from muskets to rifles.
We only did 25,000 Second Allin Conversions on Civil War rifle muskets; hundreds of thousands of later versions were scratch built except it took a while to use up all the lock plates on hand. But it still made use of a lot of CW tooling setups and worker skills.

The fictional Civil Government Arsenal rifle in David Drake's Bellevue stories was made for rapid fire, probably at the expense of fine accuracy... trigger overtravel opened the breechblock and ejected the empty. One less move than the Werder Lightning.

I think when 'Island in the Sea of Time' Nantucket upgraded from crossbows, pikes, and swords ("Give 'em the Ginsu") to rifles, they went with the Werder Lightning type.