Red Dot concealment concerns

[breakingtime91]

I have tried red dots half a dozen different times on four different platforms and I cannot get them to conceal on my frame in the appendix position. It takes a gun that disappears on me to one that I cannot conceal at all (I've tried the carry sized optics as well). The right side of the optic always prints unless I'm standing in the absolute perfect posture, it'll print.

Using good JM holsters that otherwise make the gun disappear, add a dot and i look like i have a pointy belly button. I've decided they just aren't in the cards for me right now. If I can't conceal them, there isn't a point. I carry a p2000 year round, and have concealed a handgun for over 11 years now.


Anyone else have this issue?

[rawkguitarist]

I have tried red dots half a dozen different times on four different platforms and I cannot get them to conceal on my frame in the appendix position. It takes a gun that disappears on me to one that I cannot conceal at all (I've tried the carry sized optics as well). The right side of the optic always prints unless I'm standing in the absolute perfect posture, it'll print.

Using good JM holsters that otherwise make the gun disappear, add a dot and i look like i have a pointy belly button. I've decided they just aren't in the cards for me right now. If I can't conceal them, there isn't a point. I carry a p2000 year round, and have concealed a handgun for over 11 years now.


Anyone else have this issue?

What kind of belt are you using? If it’s too stiff a belt, it can’t conform to the left side/inner side of the holster and pull it in as close. I’m not aware if a better designed belt for appendix than the Zero from Tenicor. It’s a strong belt, but has enough flex to address that problem. Also, my Tenicor Velo 4’s conceal better than my JM’s and Tenicor Certum’s too. It’s just a bit wider and helps pull the optic in better.

Full disclosure: Tenicor is a sponsor of my podcast. Still the best gear I’ve ever had.

[breakingtime91]

What kind of belt are you using? If it’s too stiff a belt, it can’t conform to the left side/inner side of the holster and pull it in as close. I’m not aware if a better designed belt for appendix than the Zero from Tenicor. It’s a strong belt, but has enough flex to address that problem. Also, my Tenicor Velo 4’s conceal better than my JM’s and Tenicor Certum’s too. It’s just a bit wider and helps pull the optic in better.

Full disclosure: Tenicor is a sponsor of my podcast. Still the best gear I’ve ever had.

Tenicore zero and jm wing claw 2.0 with mastermind junk pillow

[Joe in PNG]

I can make a dotted 1911 & Shield Plus work IWB for me, but had a hard time with a Glock 19 in the same position.

[backtrail540]

Not so much since i've switched to an enigma. It applies force over a greater area and, for me, pulls the whole gun in vs rotating the grip etc...

Things that i did notice made a difference when running belt mounted holsters as i made the dot switch, in no particular order...

running an aiwb mag pouch centerline opposite the gun - this added some bulk and made the curve more even across the front of the body so that the dot was not protruding out much more than the rest of my pantline.

less grip tuck allowed the optic to sit more against my stomach. So on a modwing for example, i would normally run the highest attachment for maximum grip tuck but with a dot it levered the optic out. I switched to the lower attachment and this relaxed the rotation pushing the optic out while only minimally decreasing grip tuck.

more muzzle wedge to tilt the whole top of the gun inward. It was slightly less comfortable but did help hide the upper half of the gun better.

wide spaced dcc clips, like on a JMCK 2.0 that evenly distributed the pressure and weight of the gun helped with overall comfort and concealment.

longer holsters for more constant leverage/pressure. Rollout is a problem with iron sighted guns too, but i find it exacerbated with dots. More weight/mass and what not.

slightly more stiff belt.

[GJM]

Are you using a JM with a wing or a George?

Edited to add, I just saw your post above. A wing makes an optic print for me much more. Other than an Acro, it is never the optic that prints in me. I use a George.

[breakingtime91]

Are you using a JM with a wing or a George?

Edited to add, I just saw your post above. A wing makes an optic print for me much more. Other than an Acro, it is never the optic that prints in me. I use a George.


Wing claw, with a dot I take off the wedge part so it's just the bar. I still need some grip tuck.

[breakingtime91]

Wing claw, with a dot I take off the wedge part so it's just the bar. I still need some grip tuck.

I think this describes the issue. I need a claw so the grip of my pistol doesn't print. That leads to the optic printing. I can take off the actual claw and leave the bar which balances the two but I still get dot printing, even with an aggressive wedge which makes it uncomfortable and more difficult to draw.

Can you see my frustration. Comparatively I can conceal a duty sized hand gun with irons with no issue. I'm stuck because I get the advantages of a dot but it's complicating my csrry process so much that I am throwing my hands up.

[rawkguitarist]

Wing claw, with a dot I take off the wedge part so it's just the bar. I still need some grip tuck.

Makes sense. What about trying the Enigma like mentioned above. Damn it’s a brilliant system.

I’m about 25lbs overweight and can wear fairly loose and strategic colored shirts. So “covered” carry with some printing from time to time is ok for me. But my carry system fits my situation.

Are you carrying in an NPE? Otherwise a little print isn’t the end of the world.

Just curious.

[dontshakepandas]

Have you tried an enigma? I find it does a much better job of applying pressure to the wing claw for grip tuck while also keeping the slide and optic tucked in than I can get with traditional holsters. I can barely tell the difference with or without a P2.

[breakingtime91]

Makes sense. What about trying the Enigma like mentioned above. Damn it’s a brilliant system.

I’m about 25lbs overweight and can wear fairly loose and strategic colored shirts. So “covered” carry with some printing from time to time is ok for me. But my carry system fits my situation.

Are you carrying in an NPE? Otherwise a little print isn’t the end of the world.

Just curious.

Not neccassirly on your first question but I do go for a concealment level thst would pass in any environment, including NPEs. Just personal preference and experiences in my life where printing of a gun would have been extremely detrimental.

[Clusterfrack]

Tenicore zero and jm wing claw 2.0 with mastermind junk pillow

The Zero is the worst CCW belt I have ever tried. I love the buckle--it's a brilliant design. The belt itself was a total zero for carry. It's less stiff vertically than some of my pants belts.

I suggest trying the Wilderness Swift CSM belt.

I also strongly prefer the JMCK WC 2.5 to the 2.0.

[FreedomFries]

The optics add more bulk but if I use the Mastermind king size pillow, it seems to work OK for me because it forces the whole rear end closer to my body. It isn't necessarily more comfortable, but it works for me. Also, having an WML seems to improve concealment for me because it gives a wider, flatter end on the bottom of the holster for the pillow/wedge to push against, so the top rolls out even less. I can conceal a B92, 509T, TLR1 like that in the JMCK AIWB Wing Claw 2.5 light bearing holster, but the total weight and bulk at the bottom isn't my top choice for all day comfort.

[breakingtime91]

The Zero is the worst CCW belt I have ever tried. I love the buckle--it's a brilliant design. The belt itself was a total zero for carry. It's less stiff vertically than some of my pants belts.

I suggest trying the Wilderness Swift CSM belt.

I also strongly prefer the JMCK WC 2.5 to the 2.0.


I'm the complete opposite. I have mastermind and wilderness belts and they concealed worst for me and the 2.5 center only clips printed much worst then the weider spread dcc.

Concealment is such a weird thing

[Noah]

I can completely hide and comfortably carry a full size gun with a duty light and an optic.


When I'm standing still with the right posture, or sitting the right way

Thats why I used to think it was fine and easy to carry a duty gun with a light and optic. Thought you were lazy if you didn't.

Then I had kids. All of a sudden I'm actually walking and moving and playing and chasing and rolling around in public and not able to focus on my concealment and comfort in the same way. Immediate change haha. Comfort and concealment has to be automatic, in the background.

Other people know they print and don't care.

They're right, until the day they're dead wrong and get a shank, bullet, of cuffs.

Then there's people that just don't know. A lot of like older people carrying at 4 o clock just aren't self aware of how bad they print.

Had a guy like that at my church for awhile. Drove me nuts, he printed like crazy 24/7 and was blissfully unaware lol. It was legitimately awkward

I struggled mightily with dot printing with wind/movement with everything, even a K on a slim gun, except the SCS on a 19 5 MOS.

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[PNWTO]

Then I had kids. All of a sudden I'm actually walking and moving and playing and chasing and rolling around in public and not able to focus on my concealment and comfort in the same way.


Off topic but agreed. Having kids and all the random toddler stuff has really changed my perspective on enjoying life while having self defense tools. And learning to largely ignore the shrieking gun culture, “mission drives the gear” platitudes that are vomited around.

To the OP, the Enigma has its vocal advocates, but when you find the right set up for it; the advocates are right. It’s a solid option.

[breakingtime91]

Off topic but agreed. Having kids and all the random toddler stuff has really changed my perspective on enjoying life while having self defense tools. And learning to largely ignore the shrieking gun culture, “mission drives the gear” platitudes that are vomited around.

To the OP, the Enigma has its vocal advocates, but when you find the right set up for it; the advocates are right. It’s a solid option.

I've looked at them and may mess with one in the future. My real internal struggle is the fact that I can comfortably and with full concealment carry my p2000 all year without a red dot. I also am very active with my five kids and constantly doing stuff so comfort is a large factor. I'm starting to realize that while I can see the advantages of a red dot and have shot one for over a year before, the juice may not be worth the squeeze for me.

[G19Fan]

I've looked at them and may mess with one in the future. My real internal struggle is the fact that I can comfortably and with full concealment carry my p2000 all year without a red dot. I also am very active with my five kids and constantly doing stuff so comfort is a large factor. I'm starting to realize that while I can see the advantages of a red dot and have shot one for over a year before, the juice may not be worth the squeeze for me.

I am an enigma guy and it is the only way I can conceal a g19 with 509T with some minor printing but I went to xl chopped macro and eps carry for no printing

Enigma, mag carrier on other side or bigger wedge should work.

That said if you shoot irons to personal standards then judgement call on whether a dot is needed.

I have a g43 and p365 for irons only deep concealment

[EVP]

What optic? I assume an optic with a square back like an eps?


Carrying concealed is so individual based it’s hard to make a recommendation.



But I’ll play the other side of it, just carry your p2000 with irons.

[G19Fan]

Deleted dupe

[G19Fan]

What optic? I assume an optic with a square back like an eps?


Carrying concealed is so individual based it’s hard to make a recommendation.



But I’ll play the other side of it, just carry your p2000 with irons.

Yeah for some a 507k or 407k conceals better than a eps carry

[luckyman]

Yeah I’m curious as to what optic also. A Glock 19 with an RMR was a real struggle, a P365xl with a holosun is no problem.

[Chefdog]

I’ve only started carrying in the last few months, but I’ve found, to my surprise, that it’s fairly easy to conceal a g19 with an EPS carry. With jeans, a slightly baggy t shirt or especially with a hoodie or sweatshirt, my wife can’t tell when I’m wearing a gun or not. I agree with the statement above that a mag pouch at 11-11:30 helps even things out and minimize the edge of the optic catching the shirt. I find that wearing the gun closer to centerline works best. If i try to push over past that first belt loop it’s much harder to get things concealed well.

Obviously everyone’s requirements and wardrobe are different and I don’t intend to discount people’s opinions, but I think we make far too big a deal out of what we see as printing. Sure, if a strong wind pushes my t shirt tight against my stomach there’s a small edge visible where the magazine protrudes from the grip, but imo it certainly doesn’t look like a gun by any stretch of the imagination. Most people are so absorbed in their own business or iPhone that they wouldn’t notice if you were toting an RPG around the grocery store.
When I first went out armed I was super conscious because I knew I had a gun on and would watch every person I walked by to see if they were looking at me. No one was, and if they were they’d have to get uncomfortably close to notice anything, and they’d have to frisk me to know that what I had was a gun and not a phone or a huge rodeo buckle on my belt. I would be totally comfortable carrying my g47/Eps under a hoodie or a flannel and be confident that no one would look at me and think twice.

FWIW, I’m only 5’8” and 160 with a little bit of a starter gut. On my own time I use a Zero belt (I like it better than the mastermind specialist) and either a Certum or Tier1-M and mastermind pad with the Glock 19/eps carry. At work I use a mastermind covert belt under my clothes with a 365xl/407k and there’s no chance without groping my crotch that you can tell I’m carrying.

[dontshakepandas]

I've looked at them and may mess with one in the future. My real internal struggle is the fact that I can comfortably and with full concealment carry my p2000 all year without a red dot. I also am very active with my five kids and constantly doing stuff so comfort is a large factor. I'm starting to realize that while I can see the advantages of a red dot and have shot one for over a year before, the juice may not be worth the squeeze for me.

I really think you should give the Enigma a try. I'm very active with my 4 year old, even coach his soccer and tee ball team, and don't have any issues with concealment or comfort with an Enigma and sport belt.

I wear the belt pretty tight to get maximum concealment, but the sport belt has enough flex that it can still allow my body to move naturally. Since the holster has a wider attachment point, it stays locked down and doesn't shift around which was always an issue for me with even the best belt holsters. I tried holsters from Tenicor, JMCK, Dark Star... all of them would conceal wonderfully when I first put them on and had them situated just right. However, after a day of moving around, sitting down, standing up, and actually living my life, they would always shift and slide just enough to not be in that perfect spot anymore. I don't get that with the Enigma.

I promise Phlster isn't paying me. They probably should though.

[breakingtime91]

I really think you should give the Enigma a try. I'm very active with my 4 year old, even coach his soccer and tee ball team, and don't have any issues with concealment or comfort with an Enigma and sport belt.

I wear the belt pretty tight to get maximum concealment, but the sport belt has enough flex that it can still allow my body to move naturally. Since the holster has a wider attachment point, it stays locked down and doesn't shift around which was always an issue for me with even the best belt holsters. I tried holsters from Tenicor, JMCK, Dark Star... all of them would conceal wonderfully when I first put them on and had them situated just right. However, after a day of moving around, sitting down, standing up, and actually living my life, they would always shift and slide just enough to not be in that perfect spot anymore. I don't get that with the Enigma.

I promise Phlster isn't paying me. They probably should though.

With an iron sight gun im fine. I wore my p2000 in a jm 2.0 for 12 hours this weekend and barely noticed it. Stays in place, moves with my body. Only issue I have is adding a dot. Dot gives me some advantage at distance but from what I'm reading it is becoming apparent I may just have to be a Fudd with irons.

[bofe954]

If I could still see front sights well, I would never have bothered with dots.

[Chefdog]

I tried holsters from Tenicor, JMCK, Dark Star... all of them would conceal wonderfully when I first put them on and had them situated just right. However, after a day of moving around, sitting down, standing up, and actually living my life, they would always shift and slide just enough to not be in that perfect spot anymore.

I had this same issue at first with the Tier1-M holster with its single DCC clip. Single clips conceal better on me than dual wide clips and the small footprint and thinness worked well so I wanted to see if I could eliminate the shifting. I finally cut up a couple of those rubberized pads you put on the kitchen chairs to keep them from scratching the hardwood floors and stuck them to the outside of the holster body. With the belt cinched fairly tight they do a great job of creating friction against my pants to hold the gun in place.

[breakingtime91]

Yeah for some a 507k or 407k conceals better than a eps carry

I have done rhe eps, eps carry, 407k, rmr and a 507c. They all have varying degrees of difference but the only one that wasn't a bad combo with a sig 365xl with 407k. Great carrying combo until I rusted the gun so badly I couldn't drop the mag.

[breakingtime91]

If I could still see front sights well, I would never have bothered with dots.

I now shoot irons with a target focus like I used to shoot a red dot.

[G19Fan]

I really think you should give the Enigma a try. I'm very active with my 4 year old, even coach his soccer and tee ball team, and don't have any issues with concealment or comfort with an Enigma and sport belt.

I wear the belt pretty tight to get maximum concealment, but the sport belt has enough flex that it can still allow my body to move naturally. Since the holster has a wider attachment point, it stays locked down and doesn't shift around which was always an issue for me with even the best belt holsters. I tried holsters from Tenicor, JMCK, Dark Star... all of them would conceal wonderfully when I first put them on and had them situated just right. However, after a day of moving around, sitting down, standing up, and actually living my life, they would always shift and slide just enough to not be in that perfect spot anymore. I don't get that with the Enigma.

I promise Phlster isn't paying me. They probably should though.

I feel you. I have made at least 50 enigma converts and told a few hundred more

[G19Fan]

I have done rhe eps, eps carry, 407k, rmr and a 507c. They all have varying degrees of difference but the only one that wasn't a bad combo with a sig 365xl with 407k. Great carrying combo until I rusted the gun so badly I couldn't drop the mag.

Had a buddy's p365 do the same thing

[breakingtime91]

A lot of food for thought. Thank you everyone

[GJM]

I have done rhe eps, eps carry, 407k, rmr and a 507c. They all have varying degrees of difference but the only one that wasn't a bad combo with a sig 365xl with 407k. Great carrying combo until I rusted the gun so badly I couldn't drop the mag.

I can't figure that out about the 365. My wife has been carrying THIS same 365 for four years AIWB or IWB, and the only corrosion is some light speckling on the corner of the slide.

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[Noah]

Off topic but agreed. Having kids and all the random toddler stuff has really changed my perspective on enjoying life while having self defense tools. And learning to largely ignore the shrieking gun culture, “mission drives the gear” platitudes that are vomited around.

To the OP, the Enigma has its vocal advocates, but when you find the right set up for it; the advocates are right. It’s a solid option.

I'll get comfy with big guns again in flannel season, like the 2 G19s ove been shooting since the sumemr, because a flannel is my concealment hack lol. Everything about them is great for concealment. Weighty material that pulls itself down, pattern breaks things up, thick material. But then 2 or 3 weeks ago, we went to a new busy playground after church, and it was beautiful and warm. I took off my flannel and untucked my tee shirt to enjoy the weather with my family.

Then I spent the entire time I was playing with my daughter all over the playset with half my focus on keeping my 19 from printing like nuts as a I moved and wind and picked her up and down. Thats when i said screw it.

That night I kept working on my g42 Enigma deep carry rig until I was happier with it, and when I saw that it was working well even with the extended mag, thats when I said screw it again, I'm going to a 365xl or 43x or something and just carry that year round.

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G43X. The 43 length muzzle is a game changer for deep carry mobility for me vs a 48 which I carried most of last summer before just going to 2x 19s.

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42 setup I'm using with the 43X now

[breakingtime91]

I can't figure that out about the 365. My wife has been carrying THIS same 365 for four years AIWB or IWB, and the only corrosion is some light speckling on the corner of the slide.

116372

Fourth of July in New mexico. Wore the gun all day, got home and put it on the night stand. Didn't wipe it down, which I guess is my fault but I've never had a pistol rust before, at least nothing anywhere near that. Woke up the next day and it was completely rusted. I'll see if I have photos. Prior to that I only ever had the mags rust which basically seemed like if your breathed in the same room the moisture turned then orange :p

[Tensaw]

I'm running a PDP Compact with 509T (which is a pretty big honkin' rig) in a JMCK 2.5. The back right corner of the optic sometimes prints through. I have wondered if an optic with a round shape, like an SRO would be as noticeable. I'm fortunate that my little social circle is, at worst, ambivalent about me having the pistol on me.

[G19Fan]

I can't figure that out about the 365. My wife has been carrying THIS same 365 for four years AIWB or IWB, and the only corrosion is some light speckling on the corner of the slide.

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Def sweat ph balance

I swear a gun 7am to midnight daily in Texas. I never wipe down except cleaning it once a month

Have a buddy that needs to clean weekly. Wipe down every 2 days

[Noah]

Def sweat ph balance

I swear a gun 7am to midnight daily in Texas. I never wipe down except cleaning it once a month

Have a buddy that needs to clean weekly. Wipe down every 2 days

Is the next PF Thread Drift (TM) going to be a discussion about how to use diet and natural remedies to adjust your sweat PH for less corrosion?

[JCS]

I'm the complete opposite. I have mastermind and wilderness belts and they concealed worst for me and the 2.5 center only clips printed much worst then the weider spread dcc.

Concealment is such a weird thing

Same for me. Tenicor zero is the best belt I've found for concealment.

I'll echo what others have said about the enigma. But I've come to the conclusion I can't carry anything bigger than a 365xl without printing beyond my comfort level. Full size guns are a no go for me. I do find the optic harder to conceal and will often carry irons for that reason in warmer months.