New RCS holster... Side car style

[Flamingo]

Executive Select Series (https://soldiersystems.net/2024/03/18/raven-concealment-redefines-concealed-carry-with-executive-select-series/)

116330

Not sure what to think about this. For my use it seems like the magazine has the bullets facing the wrong direction for efficient use. I carry a spare with a DSG Koala on my weak side with the bullets facing in.

[LittleLebowski]

Do not want.

[Jay585]

It kind of looks cool, like a SciFi movie prop, but... Nah.

[EVP]

I have not been a fan of Raven since they went a different direction with their business.


Their products and pricing makes them almost not even relevant anymore IMO.

[Hstanton1]

Could be reading it wrong, but it looks like the idea is that the magazine is stacked behind the muzzle of the gun creating a wedge similar to what’s on a tenicor. Seems like a novel idea, and using injection molded plastic instead of Kydex opens up really interesting possibilities for further divorcing the shape of the gun from the shape of the holster.

Of course, the big problem is that not everyone needs the same type of wedge placed in the same spot. Really not sure what they’re thinking with the mag orientation there… it would be an easy enough thing to make the mag caddy capable of accepting bullets facing either direction, so hopefully that’s what they did.

The mag looks a little too deep in the caddy for my liking, and I hope they’ll have more attachment options than a monoblock. I understand the convenience factor, but I find dual DCC 4.1s to be far more stable/secure and not appreciably slower to don and doff.

Overall, this particular holster seems like a miss but there are cool implications here.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I'd be interested if I was down to one functional arm/hand.

[RevolverRob]

Time will tell, but this quote, "Modular Carry: Ability to nest other essential carry items within void spaces inside the body of the holster" - makes it sound like the sidecar isn't necessarily just for magazines but maybe TQs or a knife or something. In which case they may have just modeling a mag inside for illustration purposes.

I actually don't hate this design at first glance, because it looks nicely rounded and minimal (especially for a sidecar) without a bunch of extraneous hardware. If they actually closed the bucket so to speak, I view that as a plus (I know not everyone does).

It is weird though.

[RevolverRob]

Also, addendum this AI-style lost-in-translation verbiage:


Human-Centered Design

Has got to fucking go. I'm not sure what a holster that isn't human-centered in its design would look like, but my dogs don't carry guns. Neither does a raccoon or a Roomba.

Also, all designs, designed by humans, are definitionally human-centered. But that's a pedantic point for another day.

[Clusterfrack]

The last thing I want is a bigger holster.

[Archer1440]

I'm not sure what a holster that isn't human-centered in its design would look like, but my dogs don't carry guns. Neither does a raccoon or a Roomba.



Be careful what you wish for.

[WDR]

Be careful what you wish for.

Alexa, play "Welcome To The Jungle" ...

[Kirk]

Nothing about this is appealing to me personally.

Dual DCC clips >>>> Monoblock for stability. Sidecar holsters are really difficult for me to conceal well, I doubt that changes much even with this new design. I definitely value holster comfort and concealability over carrying an extra magazine. I also find RCS to be very overpriced - $125 for their most competitive AIWB holster, the Jake, which comes with plastic clips that I'd have to change out to DCC at ~$15/shipped per clip. $100 for the injection molded, plastic clip Eidelon is LOL worthy almost.

[MGW]

I bet it was built for a special government contract too. /sarcasm

[feudist]

Y'all, it's a premium carry experience.
Who doesn't want that?

[Default.mp3]

Has got to fucking go. I'm not sure what a holster that isn't human-centered in its design would look like, but my dogs don't carry guns. Neither does a raccoon or a Roomba.

Also, all designs, designed by humans, are definitionally human-centered. But that's a pedantic point for another day.Well, some of the really cheap, shitty holsters are often manufacturing-centered designs, rather than human-centered. It's like saying a chair was designed using human factors engineering; sounds silly on the face of it, since chairs are suppose to be only really used by humans, but plenty of shitty chairs out there are designed around providing the minimally adequate sitting experience, while emphasizing the ease of manufacturing.

[RevolverRob]

Well, some of the really cheap, shitty holsters are often manufacturing-centered designs, rather than human-centered. It's like saying a chair was designed using human factors engineering; sounds silly on the face of it, since chairs are suppose to be only really used by humans, but plenty of shitty chairs out there are designed around providing the minimally adequate sitting experience, while emphasizing the ease of manufacturing.

What have I told you about making sense?

Well, I'll tell you what my wife says, "People don't like it when you make sense."

So, don't go making sense with your logic and perception...

[camel]

I'd be interested if I was down to one functional arm/hand.

I still think the holster is set up for that wrong. If it was outside the waistband maybe. But I don’t have enough room in my pants for what this looks like.

[SS90]

Looking at their current line of products, it's hard to believe that RCS used to be one of, if not the best holster makers on the market. The Perun is a good inexpensive OWB holster. The VG2 with a lanyard makes for a handy trigger guard. Other than that... I don't see anything they sell that someone like JMCK, DSG, or Tenicor (to name a few) doesn't do better.

I'm not a Raven hater by any means. I still regularly use a G26 Phantom and mag carrier they made for me while I waited at the Indianapolis gun show back in 2011. I use the aforementioned Perun and VG2 from time to time. But their new product releases just continue to disappoint, IMO.

[DLWinner]

Idk… I am actually very interested in this holster and can’t wait to try one. I have been a Raven user since 2009 and still carry an Eidolon everyday.
If you look at the way this is designed, it looks like it would work well.

[RealSelf]

Do not want.

Did you write this message on an iPhone?

[HCountyGuy]

I don’t think most of us on this board are in their target demographic for this…thing. I’m sure they’ll sell a few handfuls and send some copies out to the IG Influencers/Entertrainers to hype it up.

I’m just amused holster makers keep emulating this as peak operatorerer.

116421

[Noah]

Did you write this message on an iPhone?

"Do not want" is a meme

[Flamingo]

Idk… I am actually very interested in this holster and can’t wait to try one. I have been a Raven user since 2009 and still carry an Eidolon everyday.
If you look at the way this is designed, it looks like it would work well.

It is interesting in this photo the rounds are pointed inboard, and on the website the rounds are pointed outboard. The inboard orientation makes it much more interesting to me. I am not going to put $10 down for a reservation when I don't have a price range for the final product.

[RealSelf]

The ignorance/arrogance displayed by many here seems a touch ironic considering the once held way of the forum here was not to speak on things you have no direct experience with. You may have experience with other holsters which *look* similar to this but in reality nobody here has likely even seen one in the wild... let alone actually used one. Would it be too much to simply ask that we as a collective hold our judgement and simply share real world experiences once they become available. If you don't like the aesthetic, don't buy it... that's literally all we have right now is looks. There's really nothing added here saying you don't like how it looks.

If you're open to embracing new ideas/technology then I don't think you'll easily find a company that surpasses RCS in this avenue. They have continued to attempt to innovate despite people complaining incessantly about it not being ____. Even a company like PHLster which has some novel designs, still simply uses the old molded kydex design envelope for most everything's basic form. I've honestly been less than thrilled with the reality of having to tinker heavily with holsters to get them to *work* for me as an individual. The fact that this holster claims to not need any of this tinkering/adjustment I'd say is monumental if it delivers on this claim.

[GearFondler]

That top down view that DLWinner posted is certainly interesting. If I had to guess I'd say this design will work well for some and suboptimaly for others depending on how rounded or flat one's abdomin happens to be.
It also verifies what I suspected from the first picture... It's designed for a monoblock or dual clips and the dual clips look to offer infinite height adjustment.
Edit to add: I like the new idea but the execution looks like it may unacceptably thick as well.

[Flamingo]

The ignorance/arrogance displayed by many here seems a touch ironic considering the once held way of the forum here was not to speak on things you have no direct experience with. You may have experience with other holsters which *look* similar to this but in reality nobody here has likely even seen one in the wild... let alone actually used one. Would it be too much to simply ask that we as a collective hold our judgement and simply share real world experiences once they become available. If you don't like the aesthetic, don't buy it... that's literally all we have right now is looks. There's really nothing added here saying you don't like how it looks.

If you're open to embracing new ideas/technology then I don't think you'll easily find a company that surpasses RCS in this avenue. They have continued to attempt to innovate despite people complaining incessantly about it not being ____. Even a company like PHLster which has some novel designs, still simply uses the old molded kydex design envelope for most everything's basic form. I've honestly been less than thrilled with the reality of having to tinker heavily with holsters to get them to *work* for me as an individual. The fact that this holster claims to not need any of this tinkering/adjustment I'd say is monumental if it delivers on this claim.


I am open to new technologies and I hope this is a great product. I would be more than happy to eat crow about this.

I didn't start this thread to bash on RCS, but I do see some issues with the CAD drawings on the press release. Outboard bullet orientation requires, at least to me, an awkward twist of the wrist to perform.

The Edelon had some great ideas, but it required just as much fiddling as any other AIWB holster that I used.

[texasaggie2005]

@taskernetwork (https://www.instagram.com/taskernetwork/) on IG has a series of pictures, 7 & 9 look particularly interesting regarding the geometry.

I have no clue how to correctly link to IG or BBcode the pictures correctly.

[Flamingo]

@taskernetwork (https://www.instagram.com/taskernetwork/) on IG has a series of pictures, 7 & 9 look particularly interesting regarding the geometry.

I have no clue how to correctly link to IG or BBcode the pictures correctly.

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[RevolverRob]

The ignorance/arrogance displayed by many here seems a touch ironic considering the once held way of the forum here was not to speak on things you have no direct experience with. You may have experience with other holsters which *look* similar to this but in reality nobody here has likely even seen one in the wild... let alone actually used one. Would it be too much to simply ask that we as a collective hold our judgement and simply share real world experiences once they become available. If you don't like the aesthetic, don't buy it... that's literally all we have right now is looks. There's really nothing added here saying you don't like how it looks.

If you're open to embracing new ideas/technology then I don't think you'll easily find a company that surpasses RCS in this avenue. They have continued to attempt to innovate despite people complaining incessantly about it not being ____. Even a company like PHLster which has some novel designs, still simply uses the old molded kydex design envelope for most everything's basic form. I've honestly been less than thrilled with the reality of having to tinker heavily with holsters to get them to *work* for me as an individual. The fact that this holster claims to not need any of this tinkering/adjustment I'd say is monumental if it delivers on this claim.

So - look - I'll be really direct. If you think RCS is the first company to try to reinvent the holster or make it 'less form of the pistol more form of the holster' - then there is about ~100+ years of holster evolution to investigate that demonstrates that isn't true. Perhaps more importantly, RCS has had absolutely zero innovation in the past ~10 years and therefore they had to come up with a 'game changer' to even attempt to regain relevance as a company.

The simple fact is - it is not difficult to build a holster that is different. It is next to impossible to build one that is different and works. I've carried guns long enough and bought enough holsters already to know enough to be skeptical and especially to be skeptical of a company like RCS where the good idea fairy visits but is usually overshadowed by the poor execution spectre.

I also admit that I think it's arrogant to assume one must put hands on a design in order to understand it will be poor. It doesn't take a PhD in Anatomy (which I actually do have) to look at that thing and know - human crotches are not shaped this way...at all.

[RealSelf]

So - look - I'll be really direct. If you think RCS is the first company to try to reinvent the holster or make it 'less form of the pistol more form of the holster' - then there is about ~100+ years of holster evolution to investigate that demonstrates that isn't true. Perhaps more importantly, RCS has had absolutely zero innovation in the past ~10 years and therefore they had to come up with a 'game changer' to even attempt to regain relevance as a company.

The simple fact is - it is not difficult to build a holster that is different. It is next to impossible to build one that is different and works. I've carried guns long enough and bought enough holsters already to know enough to be skeptical and especially to be skeptical of a company like RCS where the good idea fairy visits but is usually overshadowed by the poor execution spectre.

I also admit that I think it's arrogant to assume one must put hands on a design in order to understand it will be poor. It doesn't take a PhD in Anatomy (which I actually do have) to look at that thing and know - human crotches are not shaped this way...at all.

Skepticism is good, in a healthy dose but you seem skeptical in the extreme. Even if they have underdelivered on past products, in your opinion, it would be arrogant to me to assume this will be the same because well.... it's a *different* holster entirely. I believe you are doing a very *extreme* amount of speculating on the workings of RCS, saying they've not been relevant in ten years. They are still in business, that says something.

In this world to even remain in business is not something to be taken for granted, good/great products or not. If the company needed 10 years to build for the future and/or get on good financial footing then that is their perogative. You as a consumer have zero right speculating on their business as a whole and the direction they have taken. Perhaps you should contact the owner directly rather than spout your best guess about this.

I've never said they were the first to attempt to reinvent the holster but what I did say is that it's clear they've been willing to abandon the status quo in favor of trying to innovate. The reality is that you've not named a single company that is currently in business which is even in the conversation as attempting innovating at a deep level beyond just little tweaks and a few added 'features' here and there. Kydex is all very similar, IMO.

You're speculating entirely that it will be a poor design based on looks alone, that's incredibly foolish IMO. The form is exactly what they felt it needed to be, they can literally 3D print these things in any shape they want. Why use a shape that looks 'wrong' if not for functional advantage? Looks can be deceiving and yet you somehow seem to consider yourself an expert on their entire business because you've tried a few of their products.

The other thing is you're speculating for everyone as to whether a design 'works', in your view. Humans do not agree on anything being ideal in general, we have unique tastes and/or needs ultimately. One man's trash is another man's treasure, my friend. I hear people wax eloquently about all sorts of holsters and on the other side of the coin there are just as many who say it doesn't 'work' for them. 'Work' in this case is subjective, not objective. It holds a pistol to a belt, therefore it does work.

I think you are missing the big picture entirely, most all holsters for the last 100 years as you mention, have been one or maybe two pieces of material that are molded around the pistol and bonded together (rivets, screws, thread, glue, etc). This may have been high tech for the last century but 3-D printing is clearly the way of the future when you can design any shape you want on CAD and there's almost an unlimited capacity to build it inexpensively.

I do not know of any other makers going down this path on a large scale as this, naturally RCS is going to take what is likely a large amount of abuse over abandoning the old ways as the purists cry that the old ways work just fine.... blah, blah, blah.... you cannot reinvent the holster. As was said in Moneyball, " the first man over the wall always gets bloody". This will be no different but I predict that it will change the way makers approach building holsters from a materials standpoint if nothing else.

[PNWTO]

I was going to give it a running chance until I saw the backside (bodyside?). That looks really uncomfortable for that much surface area. Maybe that’s a pre-production prototype and they’ll incorporate something akin to the grooves that PHLster does on the new Floodlights.

Sidecar holsters aren’t for me, anyhow; but as presented this thing looks like it lacks some refinement we see from other manufacturers.




116421


A long time ago, in a galaxy far away; I had this holster for my issued M9. It was decent for bumming around the COP and on larger FOBs. It stayed in the wire as I would just put the Beretta in a mag pouch for movement. It’s an objectively shit holster, but a decent bum around rig. <shrug>

[Totem Polar]

I am not going to put $10 down for a reservation when I don't have a price range for the final product.

Yeah, that’s bunk.

I’ll keep an open mind, but someone else will have to pay to beta test and/or for vaporware.

[RevolverRob]

Skepticism is good, in a healthy dose but you seem skeptical in the extreme. Even if they have underdelivered on past products, in your opinion, it would be arrogant to me to assume this will be the same because well.... it's a *different* holster entirely. I believe you are doing a very *extreme* amount of speculating on the workings of RCS, saying they've not been relevant in ten years. They are still in business, that says something.

In this world to even remain in business is not something to be taken for granted, good/great products or not. If the company needed 10 years to build for the future and/or get on good financial footing then that is their perogative. You as a consumer have zero right speculating on their business as a whole and the direction they have taken. Perhaps you should contact the owner directly rather than spout your best guess about this.

I've never said they were the first to attempt to reinvent the holster but what I did say is that it's clear they've been willing to abandon the status quo in favor of trying to innovate. The reality is that you've not named a single company that is currently in business which is even in the conversation as attempting innovating at a deep level beyond just little tweaks and a few added 'features' here and there. Kydex is all very similar, IMO.

You're speculating entirely that it will be a poor design based on looks alone, that's incredibly foolish IMO. The form is exactly what they felt it needed to be, they can literally 3D print these things in any shape they want. Why use a shape that looks 'wrong' if not for functional advantage? Looks can be deceiving and yet you somehow seem to consider yourself an expert on their entire business because you've tried a few of their products.

The other thing is you're speculating for everyone as to whether a design 'works', in your view. Humans do not agree on anything being ideal in general, we have unique tastes and/or needs ultimately. One man's trash is another man's treasure, my friend. I hear people wax eloquently about all sorts of holsters and on the other side of the coin there are just as many who say it doesn't 'work' for them. 'Work' in this case is subjective, not objective. It holds a pistol to a belt, therefore it does work.

I think you are missing the big picture entirely, most all holsters for the last 100 years as you mention, have been one or maybe two pieces of material that are molded around the pistol and bonded together (rivets, screws, thread, glue, etc). This may have been high tech for the last century but 3-D printing is clearly the way of the future when you can design any shape you want on CAD and there's almost an unlimited capacity to build it inexpensively.

I do not know of any other makers going down this path on a large scale as this, naturally RCS is going to take what is likely a large amount of abuse over abandoning the old ways as the purists cry that the old ways work just fine.... blah, blah, blah.... you cannot reinvent the holster. As was said in Moneyball, " the first man over the wall always gets bloody". This will be no different but I predict that it will change the way makers approach building holsters from a materials standpoint if nothing else.

1) I actually use enough additive manufacturing to not be convinced a holster is a good place.

2) The assumption people are not using CAD in holster design is arrogant. Tenicor, Henry, Harry's holsters all use CAD, CNC, and injection molding.

3) I don't need to name a bunch of companies. I can look at RCS's catalog for 10-years to see no innovation.

4) Do you have a professional interest in RCS? Because these comments smack of them. If not you might want to evaluate what is driving your assumptions.

[RevolverRob]

Now I have a couple of min to write a longer, general response.

That holsters are fundamentally tacos or molded pouches is a reflection of the likelihood that stowing large heavy objects is best done in some type of pouch. That's what backpacks are, messenger bags, arrow quivers, knife sheaths, etc.True innovation eliminates the pouch. Those holsters (and they do exist) are almost universally viewed as garbage for legitimate reasons. Mainly revolver around retention, safety, quality, and the fact that a pouch is probably close to the optimal solution.

A 3D Printed pouch is still a pouch. If it can take on different shapes more easily, that doesn't change the core of it. Nor does it change the objective performance criteria it needs to meet to be a functional holster. It eliminates the fastener edges of a taco or pancake pouch, by being monolithic. And it replaces those edges instead with material thickness, because things that can be 3D printed have to add thickness to compensate for the loss of uniform material strength. There is no free lunch - even powdered metal additive manufacturing has to add thickness to parts that could be machined from stock to be thinner. The potential trade off is worth it from an ease of manufacturing/prototyping perspective, not because you get objectively superior products. In fact, that doesn't seem to be the case at all - overall you get objectively superior strength and weight performance when you make something from a single piece of material.

Additive manufacturing, by the way, is many layers or many pieces formed into a unit. A leather hide or single sheet of kydex is a single unit. There much greater tensile strength and/or flexibility per unit area in those materials than additively manufactured units.

Objectively, holsters are thinner and better today than ever before. Additive Manufacturing is almost certainly a step backwards, because it is not the correct manufacturing trade off we want - objectively - from holsters. Holsters need to be minimized in footprint and weight and optimized to fit a number of people. Many makers use advanced techniques and technology to refine and revise their products to meet these goals. By and large Raven has not been one of those in the last decade, where they have coasted on Government contracts. Nor am I suddenly convinced that they have gained radical and deep insight that has escaped other manufacturers that allows them to be luminaries in the field of making pouches for heavy objects.

Finally, I turn to the knife field where just above every sheath material and manufacturing technique has been tried. Including monolithic injection molding and additive manufacturing. And the gold standard is still molded taco out of kydex or leather. Because universally those sheaths suck ass due to poor retention, bulk, and weak strength. But knife companies, which sell thousands of more knives and sheaths than Raven has ever sold holsters, use those methods of manufacture because they are cheap and easy to crank stuff out, not because they are better.

Raven can prove me wrong and I hope they do. I'm not holding my breath. Just like each new "Glock Killer" every new "holster" is the greatest thing since sliced bread. And yet we all seem to return JCMK/DSG kydex or custom leather from 5-Shot or Milt Sparks. That the world's professionals return to these is what I call a...clue.

[vcdgrips]

RB- FWIW

I would disagree a bit that RCS has had no innovation in their line for the last 10 years

the eidolon came out less than 10 years ago and I would humbly submit its feature set of
1. Injection molding
2. hyper adjustability
3. ambidextrous nature
4. under 100USD
5. Widely available

was innovative.

https://soldiersystems.net/2015/01/16/raven-concealement-systems-shows-us-next-big-thing-holsters-eidolon/

Applying the same to the OWB Perun line a few years later was also innovative.

https://soldiersystems.net/2017/11/17/raven-concealment-systems-announces-perun-holster/


Having said all of that- a deposit on an unknown product with an undisclosed sale price strikes me as a bit hinky and disappointing coming from RCS

FWIW- I ran a Phantom back on the early 2000s. (G34/35 with a TLR 1)
CS was dynamite when their .060 ish kydex would crack on the regular. Replacements shipped out promptly with no need to return the broken holster. Just a photo IIRC.

[RevolverRob]

RB- FWIW

I would disagree a bit that RCS has had no innovation in their line for the last 10 years

the eidolon came out less than 10 years ago and I would humbly submit its feature set of
1. Injection molding
2. hyper adjustability
3. ambidextrous nature
4. under 100USD
5. Widely available

was innovative.

https://soldiersystems.net/2015/01/16/raven-concealement-systems-shows-us-next-big-thing-holsters-eidolon/

Applying the same to the OWB Perun line a few years later was also innovative.

https://soldiersystems.net/2017/11/17/raven-concealment-systems-announces-perun-holster/


Having said all of that- a deposit on an unknown product with an undisclosed sale price strikes me as a bit hinky and disappointing coming from RCS

FWIW- I ran a Phantom back on the early 2000s. (G34/35 with a TLR 1)
CS was dynamite when their .060 ish kydex would crack on the regular. Replacements shipped out promptly with no need to return the broken holster. Just a photo IIRC.

Fair point on Eidolon - that was only 9 years ago.

The Perun - I don't elevate to the same level. By the time the Perun came out Blade-Tech had been making injection molded OWB holsters with replaceable mounting hardware for 10-years and Comp-Tac for at least 3-4 years.

[Hambo]

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116424

That looks uncomfortable as hell.


Why use a shape that looks 'wrong' if not for functional advantage?

To make money. The Serpa is a total piece of shit, yet people keep buying them. I carry a gun 8-10 hours every day, so I'm pretty qualified to say what I want in a holster, and this plastic brick isn't it.

[mmc45414]

I wish them success, but there is a feature of my aging anatomy, that I am not particularly proud of, that makes a J-frame very easy to conceal on the strong side, or alternatively a magazine on my off side, that this approach would eliminate the advantage of. Hell, I have even started to shove my various belt buckles over off to the left of my centerline.

Perhaps maybe Michael is still just as skinny as he was when he started selling holsters at Ohio Gun Collectors back when it was at Veteran's Memorial, when Hackathorn told us they were cool. :cool:

ETA:
116436

[RevolverRob]

I took the time to read the TaskerNetwork post on IG and a handful of RCS's responses to questions and comments.

p/C4jQ7LEr6Rw

Conceptually - it seems RCS envisions this as a basically a way to rapidly produce hundreds or thousands of different configurations for end users. On the one hand - that seems admirable and a great goal. On the other, I have sincere doubts about how that will ultimately work. Both from logistics and from actual production and quality. The cageyness on details and the straight up aggression towards critics on social media does not further inspire confidence.

I would like to know a lot more details about this. But not enough to sign up for a newsletter or plunk down cash on something. This is a pet peeve of mine - don't tell me it's cool - show me - the technical glory and details. If you're not ready - then the product isn't ready.

[camel]

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116424

That looks like a lot of stuff to stick in my pants. On one area.

[WDR]

This is a pet peeve of mine - don't tell me it's cool - show me - the technical glory and details. If you're not ready - then the product isn't ready.

Pretty much where I was at from the start. This is more like a crowd funding or a kickstarter... seems silly for an established company. Building hype? IDK...

[PNWTO]

Pretty much where I was at from the start. This is more like a crowd funding or a kickstarter... seems silly for an established company. Building hype? IDK...

Especially with the assumption that RCS is very driven by organizational purchasers. So, while I may be wrong, I would imagine a good quantity of the initial production is going straight to an agency door.

And frankly that’s kind of what the design looks like, a “good enough” solution for a pencil-whipper to get a few hundred in the storeroom. Not being a hater, as Raven seems to have really embraced that and it’s a solid business model.

Plus, they (Raven) don’t have to cater to the general public and deal with criticisms about why they don’t make a holster for a 1903 Colt with an O-Light, or whatever random poly80, 320, etc, thing is currently popular.

Edit: Read through the IG link, RCS stated it was indeed an early prototype pictured; production version will have more refinements. So I’m still mildly curious. Not a fan of side cars, but if the price is right a simple, no-nonsense back up holster is always nice to have tucked away.

[WDR]

I like the idea of a "sidecar" one and done, grab and go setup, but I know with certainty that sort of thing would crush and pinch the wedding tackle, if I bend at the waist. And I'm a skinny dude.

[Lost River]

This thread reminds me while I like a plain old Summer Special!

When something works, roll with it!


I will never be one of the cutting edge cool kids though. :cool:

[Archer1440]

“This is what happens when you work to change things, and first they think you're crazy, then they fight you, and then all of a sudden you change the world.”
— Elizabeth Holmes

Oh… wait a minute. Um, never mind.

[Hambo]

I know with certainty that sort of thing would crush and pinch the wedding tackle, if I bend at the waist

It seems as though the Kydex codpiece holsters would also get in the way of taking a whiz, at least for men.

[mmc45414]

Are not most of the Kydex sidecars joined by something that will slightly flex? Seems like the rigid one piece approach omits that key feature.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[jeep45238]

Are not most of the Kydex sidecars joined by something that will slightly flex? Seems like the rigid one piece approach omits that key feature.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

From what I recall, those are usually used to sell people onto their upgraded/premium version. Still plenty of solid ones out there.

[RevolverRob]

Are not most of the Kydex sidecars joined by something that will slightly flex? Seems like the rigid one piece approach omits that key feature.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

As mentioned there are a lot of rigid ones. But in my view - yes (some) flexibility is a feature not a bug.

I was discussing with another PF'er yesterday and we both agreed that the 5-Shot SME is the most comfortable AIWB holster either of us have tried. And that includes a lot of holsters from RCS, JMCK, DSG, etc. Each of those holsters is different and distinct, yet the SME somehow manages to eclipse them all in terms of comfort. Though the SME is a fairly stiff holster, it still has flexibility to it that aids comfort and concealment.

[Dark Star Gear]

It can't be looked at as a sidecar. When we consider the four AIWB features we have to work with, this is just a leading lever rather than a trailing lever (wing). Traditional sheetstock manufacturing does not allow for enough strength to handle the fatigue from something pushing from the inside, it's barely strong enough to last with a wing. If you look at how to make a holster minding the boundary between the gun and the body, and use a strong additive process, you have way more options, to include the leading lever. Once you add that lever you have something in that area that is dead space, regardless of holster, so why not add a little more material and toss a mag there? It's been common to stuff a flashlight there on current holsters anyway.

[Dark Star Gear]

As mentioned there are a lot of rigid ones. But in my view - yes (some) flexibility is a feature not a bug.

I was discussing with another PF'er yesterday and we both agreed that the 5-Shot SME is the most comfortable AIWB holster either of us have tried. And that includes a lot of holsters from RCS, JMCK, DSG, etc. Each of those holsters is different and distinct, yet the SME somehow manages to eclipse them all in terms of comfort. Though the SME is a fairly stiff holster, it still has flexibility to it that aids comfort and concealment.

There is something to be said for the roundness of the curves of leather. The trailing lever on the SME also works VERY well, but is hard to replicate in plastic in a manner that's durable.

[Ndbbm]

There is something to be said for the roundness of the curves of leather. The trailing lever on the SME also works VERY well, but is hard to replicate in plastic in a manner that's durable.

Just curious, something that could be done with a disposable/replaceable piece?

Jason

[Dark Star Gear]

Just curious, something that could be done with a disposable/replaceable piece?

Jason

I would do it with a more expensive piece that was unique to the holster it attaches to. When we made the Dark Wing, while it wasn't the largest investment, sales of the wing to other holster makers helped make that happen. An IM component unique to our products wasn't as financially feasible then. It is now though, so... What do you carry?

[Ndbbm]

I would do it with a more expensive piece that was unique to the holster it attaches to. When we made the Dark Wing, while it wasn't the largest investment, sales of the wing to other holster makers helped make that happen. An IM component unique to our products wasn't as financially feasible then. It is now though, so... What do you carry?

A Glock (either a 19 w/ scs or 26 right now, I’m trying to weasel a 47 from work) in a 17 length Orion. Also a lcr Apollo.
I also use a velo 4 and jmck. Was asking out of curiosity.

Jason

[RevolverRob]

There is something to be said for the roundness of the curves of leather. The trailing lever on the SME also works VERY well, but is hard to replicate in plastic in a manner that's durable.

Indeed. Which is not a knock on kydex or plastic products. An SME is 8000% overkill for a J-Frame. A DSG Apollo on the other hand is perfect.

I think the long and short (and I know I'm preaching to the choir) is that not only does each user have a preference, each firearm is different in terms of its weight distribution, COG, length, width, etc. It is all but impossible to make the perfect holster for every potential setup.

Which, ostensibly, is the goal of this additive manufactured RCS rig, that they can rapidly tailor holsters to meet differing demands. Only time and end user experience will determine if they are successful in that regard.

--

So kydex SME when? ;)

[Hstanton1]

I would do it with a more expensive piece that was unique to the holster it attaches to. When we made the Dark Wing, while it wasn't the largest investment, sales of the wing to other holster makers helped make that happen. An IM component unique to our products wasn't as financially feasible then. It is now though, so... What do you carry?

This is a pretty interesting concept. Thread drift, but can you go into more depth about the differences between the trailing lever on the SME vs the trailing lever on Kydex wing based holsters? Both are the same type of lever to my eye, is the difference that the SME lever can be longer than a darkwing/modwing without the risk of the wing cracking the holster body?

[Dark Star Gear]

This is a pretty interesting concept. Thread drift, but can you go into more depth about the differences between the trailing lever on the SME vs the trailing lever on Kydex wing based holsters? Both are the same type of lever to my eye, is the difference that the SME lever can be longer than a darkwing/modwing without the risk of the wing cracking the holster body?

Correct. The other thing the SME does that people mess up with when using plastic is the backside of the lever rests against the body, preventing over-rotation.

DSG, being in a different position, and technology being different and more affordable, can now try an idea we had years ago but couldn't reliable market. I've got a boatload on my plate, and this isn't a discussion thread for DSG stuff, so anyone who's interested pester me and I'll work a thing up to try.

[Flamingo]

anyone who's interested pester me and I'll work a thing up to try.

Consider yourself pestered. Do you want weekly, daily, or hourly pestering? I am just a giant 3 year old so I am good at pestering!

[Mirolynmonbro]

Correct. The other thing the SME does that people mess up with when using plastic is the backside of the lever rests against the body, preventing over-rotation.

DSG, being in a different position, and technology being different and more affordable, can now try an idea we had years ago but couldn't reliable market. I've got a boatload on my plate, and this isn't a discussion thread for DSG stuff, so anyone who's interested pester me and I'll work a thing up to try.

I pester you too much about ether things 😄 but I'm interested

[Ndbbm]

Correct. The other thing the SME does that people mess up with when using plastic is the backside of the lever rests against the body, preventing over-rotation.

DSG, being in a different position, and technology being different and more affordable, can now try an idea we had years ago but couldn't reliable market. I've got a boatload on my plate, and this isn't a discussion thread for DSG stuff, so anyone who's interested pester me and I'll work a thing up to try.

I started another thread in the DSG sub forum.

Jason

[Flamingo]

116634

Got this in an email from RCS. I still think the magazine is positioned in the wrong orientation.

[Trajan]

Got the email to pre-purchase. $200 seems a bit steep for this. It also looks like a huge mass.

[Totem Polar]

At $200 for pre-order, I think I’ll wait it out for a bit.

[DLWinner]

I was very interested in this…. However they need to make it for real Glocks (17, 19, etc) and the price needs to be much less.

[RevolverRob]

I feel like an auctioneer here:

"Alright folks, let's get the bidding going. Additive Manufactured Raven Concealment Systems Codpiece. Guaranteed to possibly work for your concealment needs or your money not back. For sure won't look fancy on Instagram. It definitely won't end up in your box of holsters. Opening bid do I hear 200?"

No...you're saying that's the cost of a handmade 5-Shot SME and this is a 3D printed plastic codpiece?

175?

No...you're saying that's the cost of a handmade Garrity Invictus and this is a 3D printed boat anchor?

150?

No...you're right, that's still more than a Milt Sparks IWB.

$100 opening bid!

What...you're saying that's the price of a Ronin Gunleather Aegis IWB with adjustable tuck and cant?

75 bucks!

Oh that's the cost of a JM Custom Kydex Quick Ship?

So....50 bucks?

---

I know, I know, innovation, never been done before, game changer, totally new approach to making holsters, industry altering tech...blah blah blah. It's a hunk of 3D printed plastic...

[Kirk]

I feel like an auctioneer here:

"Alright folks, let's get the bidding going. Additive Manufactured Raven Concealment Systems Codpiece. Guaranteed to possibly work for your concealment needs or your money not back. For sure won't look fancy on Instagram. It definitely won't end up in your box of holsters. Opening bid do I hear 200?"

No...you're saying that's the cost of a handmade 5-Shot SME and this is a 3D printed plastic codpiece?

175?

No...you're saying that's the cost of a handmade Garrity Invictus and this is a 3D printed boat anchor?

150?

No...you're right, that's still more than a Milt Sparks IWB.

$100 opening bid!

What...you're saying that's the price of a Ronin Gunleather Aegis IWB with adjustable tuck and cant?

75 bucks!

Oh that's the cost of a JM Custom Kydex Quick Ship?

So....50 bucks?

---

I know, I know, innovation, never been done before, game changer, totally new approach to making holsters, industry altering tech...blah blah blah. It's a hunk of 3D printed plastic...

Lmao - this is *exactly* where I am with this. Just no way I can justify spending $200 when that is SME range.

[ssb]

I’m sure they have a really great reason that I’m just not capable of understanding the greatness of for placing the mag in the opposite orientation of pretty much every decent mag pouch out there.

[RealSelf]

I feel like an auctioneer here:

"Alright folks, let's get the bidding going. Additive Manufactured Raven Concealment Systems Codpiece. Guaranteed to possibly work for your concealment needs or your money not back. For sure won't look fancy on Instagram. It definitely won't end up in your box of holsters. Opening bid do I hear 200?"

No...you're saying that's the cost of a handmade 5-Shot SME and this is a 3D printed plastic codpiece?

175?

No...you're saying that's the cost of a handmade Garrity Invictus and this is a 3D printed boat anchor?

150?

No...you're right, that's still more than a Milt Sparks IWB.

$100 opening bid!

What...you're saying that's the price of a Ronin Gunleather Aegis IWB with adjustable tuck and cant?

75 bucks!

Oh that's the cost of a JM Custom Kydex Quick Ship?

So....50 bucks?

---

I know, I know, innovation, never been done before, game changer, totally new approach to making holsters, industry altering tech...blah blah blah. It's a hunk of 3D printed plastic...

Manufacturing is only one component of a companies actual expenses. You literally have no idea how many man hours have been spent in bringing this to market or any other aspect of their business for that matter. Are you suggesting they simply sat down and drew a single CAD up and then hit 'Print' and called it a day? There are literally no other aspects to business that mean anything at all here to you?

The great thing about capitalism is that if you feel it's overpriced..... you simply don't buy it. I'm not buying it for this reason, capitalism will bring the price more in line with what people are willing to pay for it over time. There's only one place to go when selling anything.... DOWN. It's a smart move to start high and allow the market response to work down to where the pricing will be stable and support future demand, etc.

If you were looking for Ferrari performance would you jump on the nearest forum you can get to and feed them the same argument about how expensive it is? Are you that poor that $200 is so unbelievably offensive to you that you must blabber about it on the forum to others? I'm certain RCS when they set pricing and came up with a marketing scheme... was very concerned about how RevolverRob felt about this.... :rolleyes:

How much experience do you have running a business directly? I don't mean do you work for a business, have you ever OWNED a business and been the one responsible for every decision when it's all said and done? It's easy to armchair quarterback when you've never played the game... ;)

[ssb]

Manufacturing is only one component of a companies actual expenses. You literally have no idea how many man hours have been spent in bringing this to market or any other aspect of their business for that matter. Are you suggesting they simply sat down and drew a single CAD up and then hit 'Print' and called it a day? There are literally no other aspects to business that mean anything at all here to you?

The great thing about capitalism is that if you feel it's overpriced..... you simply don't buy it. I'm not buying it for this reason, capitalism will bring the price more in line with what people are willing to pay for it over time. There's only one place to go when selling anything.... DOWN. It's a smart move to start high and allow the market response to work down to where the pricing will be stable and support future demand, etc.

If you were looking for Ferrari performance would you jump on the nearest forum you can get to and feed them the same argument about how expensive it is? Are you that poor that $200 is so unbelievably offensive to you that you must blabber about it on the forum to others? I'm certain RCS when they set pricing and came up with a marketing scheme... was very concerned about how RevolverRob felt about this.... :rolleyes:

How much experience do you have running a business directly? I don't mean do you work for a business, have you ever OWNED a business and been the one responsible for every decision when it's all said and done? It's easy to armchair quarterback when you've never played the game... ;)

Dear Mr. RCS Hasbara:

Last year Raven sent me an email blast advertising a limited run of their Phantom holster for the princely sum of $124.99. Is the Phantom a good holster? Yes. Is it a basic pancake holster design I can get from literally any reputable maker for less than half that, and a whole slew of less reputable makers for a third of that? Also yes.

Raven has historically always been the most expensive game in town and there is really no evidence that anything they’ve done in the past decade or so is Ferrari-like holster performance. Quite the contrary, I own two of their recent mag pouch designs and both are shockingly mediocre for what they cost.

[RevolverRob]

Manufacturing is only one component of a companies actual expenses. You literally have no idea how many man hours have been spent in bringing this to market or any other aspect of their business for that matter. Are you suggesting they simply sat down and drew a single CAD up and then hit 'Print' and called it a day? There are literally no other aspects to business that mean anything at all here to you?

The great thing about capitalism is that if you feel it's overpriced..... you simply don't buy it. I'm not buying it for this reason, capitalism will bring the price more in line with what people are willing to pay for it over time. There's only one place to go when selling anything.... DOWN. It's a smart move to start high and allow the market response to work down to where the pricing will be stable and support future demand, etc.

If you were looking for Ferrari performance would you jump on the nearest forum you can get to and feed them the same argument about how expensive it is? Are you that poor that $200 is so unbelievably offensive to you that you must blabber about it on the forum to others? I'm certain RCS when they set pricing and came up with a marketing scheme... was very concerned about how RevolverRob felt about this.... :rolleyes:

This time I am going to directly ask the question:

Are you associated in a professional/semi-professional setting with Raven Concealment Systems?

Astroturfing is expressly forbidden by P-F's Code of Conduct. If you are you need to expressly state as much. At this stage your vehement defense of RCS, this product, and its performance makes it appear that you have some type of knowledge or inside information that others are lacking, implying a professional connection with RCS.



How much experience do you have running a business directly? I don't mean do you work for a business, have you ever OWNED a business and been the one responsible for every decision when it's all said and done? It's easy to armchair quarterback when you've never played the game... ;)

Well, not that it is super relevant, but...

I have a small business with a P-F member here (link in my signature). I was part owner and manager for my family's construction business until my father retired - that was ~20 years. And I run an academic research program which is running a business - in that I am responsible and the decisions I make have massive consequences on myself and lab members - including whether or not they can eat, pay rent, and live. Which means if I fuck up - the consequences are very fucking real.

So, yes...I am/have been in the position where I have to own every decision I make. I have to deal with the consequences of those decisions. And as a result, whether you like it or not - I am imminently fucking qualified to assess the business decisions and marketing decisions of various other companies with both a critical eye and a careful one.

This makes the second time you have crammed your foot in your mouth, thoroughly, in this thread. I, personally, derive no joy from this. I suggest that you cease your attempts to attack and/or tear down me or others in defense of an RCS product. One that only a select few have had opportunity to assess hands on.

[Noah]

I’m sure they have a really great reason that I’m just not capable of understanding the greatness of for placing the mag in the opposite orientation of pretty much every decent mag pouch out there.

Based on other pictures, I think that is an embarrassing error in the 3D render

[GJM]

It is quite clear RCS has invested heavily. However, that investment seems mostly to be in marketing.

[Palmguy]

The $10 ticket to get in line to pre-order which doesn't even go towards the $200 price is certainly a bold strategy. As is requiring an e-mail address to merely learn about the objectively expensive product. Let's see if it pays off for them.

FWIW, I think most people here are intelligent enough to understand that there are costs involved in running a business even if they haven't personally owned or managed a business themselves...but just because a company invested capital in 3D printing machines, expended labor on R&D, and/or has whatever other overhead costs they have doesn't necessarily mean that there was a sound business case to do so. The consumer is looking for the value proposition of the product itself.

[mmc45414]

Their first big transition was from bending hot Kydex to injection molded plastic. This involved evolving from a labor intensive process with a low tooling cost to a process with a very high tooling cost but almost total elimination of labor content and lower material costs are a bonus. Molds cost tens/hundreds of thousands, but the plastic is cheap and the presses are widespread and common, and the cycle times are fairly quick, so the up front cost is high but the per part cost is cheap.

But now they want to use a prototype/first article process in production. This completely eliminates the mold cost, and has less labor content than bending Kydex, but the process is slow and there is nothing that can be done to speed it up, other than running a second machine.


The $10 ticket to get in line to pre-order which doesn't even go towards the $200 price is certainly a bold strategy.
This worked well for Elon Musk, not sure it is going to work the same here.
OTOH, maybe this is an innovative way of conducing a huge virtual focus group and testing their concept? If a bunch of people send them $10 then they know they have a winner and can plan accordingly, or not.


Plus, they (Raven) don’t have to cater to the general public and deal with criticisms about why they don’t make a holster for a 1903 Colt with an O-Light
Ironically, this would be where printing production items might make sense, because it goes from data to product with no hard tooling costs that need to be recovered.

I really do not want to be some putz that craps on innovative things from the sidelines, but they are working with a slow process to build an expensive product at a high cost with a design that is, at least IMO, clunky.
But WTF do I know, millions in capital was generated by people sending in deposits on cars that took years to exist that never delivered with promised key features, but I was never one of those guys that sent in their money.

[Mirolynmonbro]

I’m sure they have a really great reason that I’m just not capable of understanding the greatness of for placing the mag in the opposite orientation of pretty much every decent mag pouch out there.

It goes in both ways. The mag facing backwards conceals better

[TCinVA]

I’m sure they have a really great reason that I’m just not capable of understanding the greatness of for placing the mag in the opposite orientation of pretty much every decent mag pouch out there.

From what I've seen the magazine can go in either way.

[Sig_Fiend]

Manufacturing is only one component of a companies actual expenses. You literally have no idea how many man hours have been spent in bringing this to market or any other aspect of their business for that matter. Are you suggesting they simply sat down and drew a single CAD up and then hit 'Print' and called it a day? There are literally no other aspects to business that mean anything at all here to you?

The great thing about capitalism is that if you feel it's overpriced..... you simply don't buy it. I'm not buying it for this reason, capitalism will bring the price more in line with what people are willing to pay for it over time. There's only one place to go when selling anything.... DOWN. It's a smart move to start high and allow the market response to work down to where the pricing will be stable and support future demand, etc.

If you were looking for Ferrari performance would you jump on the nearest forum you can get to and feed them the same argument about how expensive it is? Are you that poor that $200 is so unbelievably offensive to you that you must blabber about it on the forum to others? I'm certain RCS when they set pricing and came up with a marketing scheme... was very concerned about how RevolverRob felt about this.... :rolleyes:

How much experience do you have running a business directly? I don't mean do you work for a business, have you ever OWNED a business and been the one responsible for every decision when it's all said and done? It's easy to armchair quarterback when you've never played the game... ;)

It's this simple. The consumer side of this particular industry is not like that of .GOV contract suppliers. The infamous $500 toilet seat and such. True, there can be legitimate cases of that for specialty-made low-production items, and that can sometimes make sense.

However, we're talking largely about the consumer, civilian, gun industry. People complain about superficial features of a $30-50 holster. With additive manufacturing, they're going to expect this thing to be $20, not 10x the price. I'm not saying that's right, I'm simply saying that's the market and there's not really a way around that.
The average consumer will look at this compared to a $20 Blackhawk A.R.C., and wonder why they have to pay $180 to get the mag pouch for something that looks "basically the same". Again, not saying that's right, but it's easy to see how many might think that way.

This does have a few interesting characteristics I'm interested to see more about, and I hope it works out for them. In recent years, considering the state of society, I've tried to adopt a more optimistic attitude towards any company willing to try out new products in this particular industry. If it's only ever negativity from consumers, there's considerably less desire to try and innovate.

That said, personally, I have one of those big, surplus, Hardigg ~29x26x25 crates packed to the top with thousands of dollars in holsters I no longer use. I think many here have that or more. Kind of hard, at this point, to justify spending another $200 on something that's not yet a known quantity like an SME, various Sparks rigs, another 2-3 JMCK or DSG holsters, etc.

[Flamingo]

I like the idea of this holster. If they make it for the G19 or a S&W M&P and the magazines do indeed go either way I may purchase one... BUT not for 2 hundo. I will get an SME for those clams.


That said, personally, I have one of those big, surplus, Hardigg ~29x26x25 crates packed to the top with thousands of dollars in holsters I no longer use. I think many here have that or more. Kind of hard, at this point, to justify spending another $200 on something that's not yet a known quantity like an SME, various Sparks rigs, another 2-3 JMCK or DSG holsters, etc.

#METOO (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=METOO)

[Chuck Whitlock]

At this stage your vehement defense of RCS, this product, and its performance makes it appear that you have some type of knowledge or inside information that others are lacking, implying a professional connection with RCS.

Yeah. Rob is not the only one to have gotten the above impression.

Don't get me wrong. I like RCS. I use one or two pocket shields on a daily basis. I have one of their pocket clips / finger rings on a Surefire 6P, which with a high-output lamp is my bump-in-the-night flashlight. I wish they still made the damn things....I'd buy a couple more. When I was Glock heavy, I got an early Vanguard 2, which worked well and is a great concept. A lot of their latest stuff just doesn't fulfill my current needs/wants.

But.....





This does have a few interesting characteristics I'm interested to see more about, and I hope it works out for them.

This.



I like the idea of this holster. I may purchase one... BUT not for 2 hundo.

And this.

[Kirk]

So I just ordered a Ronin Leather Aegis 1 basically built exactly how I want with great input from the owner (photo of similar holster attached). I also added grey Elephant trim and a leather AIWB mag pouch with DCC clip. On top of this, I just ordered a Mastermind Tactics Junk Carry Pillow that I might add to the holster if needed. Total cost for everything: $237.50 shipped. Roughly the same price overall as this holster after reservation, taxes, and shipping.

I’m not comparing the holsters at all, completely different animals obviously, but it just highlights how wild a $200 price and a $10 reservation fee is for a 3d printed sidecar. This thing better be damn good at that price.

[RevolverRob]

I’m not comparing the holsters at all, completely different animals obviously, but it just highlights how wild a $200 price and a $10 reservation fee is for a 3d printed sidecar. This thing better be damn good at that price.

I mean yea...one is cow and elephant and one is thermoplastic...not even the same molecular species...;)

___

So, looking at RCS's Instagram, they showed a photo of an early prototype which was clearly printed on a PLA/Extrusion type 3D printer. The pre-production prototype shown is clearly made from a Selective Laser Sintering (SLS) print of one of the various Nylon products, Raven notes, accurately, that the SLS tech is ~10x the cost of the PLA tech. That is technically correct, a fairly high-end PLA printer is ~3k and a production ready SLS printer is ~30k ($27.8k for a Formlabs, according to a quote I got recently...). The SLS tech does produce a nicer product, higher quality, and stronger than PLA. It also is faster, uses less material (though the base material is more expensive), and breaks down a lot less often. Which means from a production point of view the upfront cost of the SLS is offset by limited downstream downtime and faster production times.

That all said...there is not $200 in material and labor in these holsters. The FormLabs SLS Nylon is ~600 bucks for 6kg of powder. I don't know the use amount to make one of these holsters, but if it takes a kg of powder (2.2 pounds) that's $100 of nylon powder per holster. The annuitized expense of the machine (30k) + power + man hours to run the machine does not equal an additional $100, it might get close and might be close enough that $200 is needed to yield a small profit. But, I have my doubts, for starters these machines, once properly set up can be run with minimal oversight, reducing man hours. I have a FormLabs printer in this room I am in right now and we regularly run it over night without observation. I can count number of failed prints on one hand with fingers left over in ~14months of weekly if not daily usage.

I would guess that these holsters take ~1/2kg of powder to print, meaning at most you're looking at $50 of raw material + annuitized machine + power + man hours + 25% profit margin and that's going to = $125. If it's this lower production number, you're looking at 100% profit margin at $200.

I know they have to annuitize the cost of multiple machines and material and upfront investment based on their initial production capacity estimates, but the long and short is - you need to have a realistic break even sales number and balance production capacity with expected sales numbers. If you over invest in production capacity up front that is failure to plan and manage appropriately.

Realistically, a product cost that clearly prioritizes profit is aimed to do one of the following:

1) rapidly increase production capacity with profit reinvestment
2) maximize financial yield on low volume production, when you have high up-front investment (basically make it so you don't lose your ass if you end up with excess production capacity)
3) Maximize profit yield - the end.

I cannot say which of these three scenarios is the main one behind the decision to price a product that is roughly a 100% profit margin...but power to them for having the balls to do it. And do it in an industry that regularly runs on ~8-18% margins...that's something.

My personal strategy would be a break-even of minor loss-lead approach on a limited initial production to get the product out if I thought it was going to change the game entirely. Followed by price increases that reflect modest profit and increased production capacity. I would have a 24-month timeline for expected profit return, because if it really is that awesome, initial profits will have to be reinvested in growing production capacity. Of course, this presumes that I have the financial backing necessary to sustain if profit return window is extended. Personally, only if I had invested everything in a go-for-broke strategy would I put profit margins high so high that they might inhibit sales volume growth.

If I was unsure if a product would hit, I'd be modest in my initial up-front investment and capacity - so I could market price to a moderate profit margin and relatively low production volume on break even.

___

This is all a really really long way of saying this:

The cost of this holster is 2x the cost of material and labor included. And yes I can approximate the costs as can anyone with an internet connection. And that means RCS has probably over-invested in this product and has not so great confidence in it. And/or it means RCS has some other financial woes and are banking on this going big or they are going home.

Regardless, the combination of RCS's lack of innovation recently + their very odd vehement defense of their design via social media + the dearth of technical details of the product + the high pricing + the confidence man type gamesmanship in their communications and product release = Low confidence on my, the consumer's, part of this situation.

I know some folks will say that's a lot of conjecture on my part and that's a fair criticism, I don't know what I don't know about RCS's business plan and solvency. What I do know is...I have watched a lot of companies go under and suffer big losses on their balance sheets when gambling on a product being the next it. They all generally are incredibly defensive about it and their behavior and attitudes are generally indicative of that failure before it is apparent to the outside.

[GJM]

So I just ordered a Ronin Leather Aegis 1 basically built exactly how I want with great input from the owner (photo of similar holster attached). I also added grey Elephant trim and a leather AIWB mag pouch with DCC clip. On top of this, I just ordered a Mastermind Tactics Junk Carry Pillow that I might add to the holster if needed. Total cost for everything: $237.50 shipped. Roughly the same price overall as this holster after reservation, taxes, and shipping.

I’m not comparing the holsters at all, completely different animals obviously, but it just highlights how wild a $200 price and a $10 reservation fee is for a 3d printed sidecar. This thing better be damn good at that price.

Think of your holster as a percentage of the pistol's cost, and you just bought a bargain holster!

[WobblyPossum]

That price is insane. At that price they’re going to sell very few on the commercial market so I hope whatever government contract led to the design of this thing is large enough to cover the development cost. If it’s not, they’re going to lose a decent amount of money. Their primary competition for the sidecar style holster is from TRex Arms (~$100) and Tier 1 Concealed (~$135). At $200 this thing better be the most comfortable and concealable sidecar holster ever designed.

[MDFA]

I'm sure I'll be sticking with JMCK or DSG for my AIWB Holsters...

[Mirolynmonbro]

The $10 ticket to get in line to pre-order which doesn't even go towards the $200 price is certainly a bold strategy. As is requiring an e-mail address to merely learn about the objectively expensive product. Let's see if it pays off for them.

The $10 ticket gives you $30 off and free shipping. I wasn't expecting it to cost $200 🤔. And there isn't a Glock 19 model available either 🤔🤔.

[Palmguy]

The $10 ticket gives you $30 off and free shipping. I wasn't expecting it to cost $200 🤔. And there isn't a Glock 19 model available either 🤔🤔.

Ah, must have been a change or at the very least some confusing language from whoever is driving RCS social media:

"3) *OK, but does that $10 at least go toward the purchase price of my holster?*
No. Those who have paid for a spot on the waitlist have essentially paid $10 to jump to the head of the line. In addition, they are given access to The Unkindness, which is a private web community we use to give "first look" access to RCS products under development weeks -- or even months -- before the general public sees them. HOWEVER, if you know anything about RCS, you know we’re the type of company that will make sure you also receive special perks and/or discounts whose values far exceed the price you paid to get on the list. "

[mmc45414]

"3) *OK, but does that $10 at least go toward the purchase price of my holster?*
No. Those who have paid for a spot on the waitlist have essentially paid $10 to jump to the head of the line. In addition, they are given access to The Unkindness, which is a private web community we use to give "first look" access to RCS products under development weeks -- or even months -- before the general public sees them. HOWEVER, if you know anything about RCS, you know we’re the type of company that will make sure you also receive special perks and/or discounts whose values far exceed the price you paid to get on the list. "

That sounds like it was written by someone that enjoys the aroma of their own farts.

[Totem Polar]

I feel like an auctioneer here:

"Alright folks, let's get the bidding going. Additive Manufactured Raven Concealment Systems Codpiece. Guaranteed to possibly work for your concealment needs or your money not back. For sure won't look fancy on Instagram. It definitely won't end up in your box of holsters. Opening bid do I hear 200?"

No...you're saying that's the cost of a handmade 5-Shot SME and this is a 3D printed plastic codpiece?

175?

No...you're saying that's the cost of a handmade Garrity Invictus and this is a 3D printed boat anchor?

150?

No...you're right, that's still more than a Milt Sparks IWB.

$100 opening bid!

What...you're saying that's the price of a Ronin Gunleather Aegis IWB with adjustable tuck and cant?

75 bucks!

Oh that's the cost of a JM Custom Kydex Quick Ship?

So....50 bucks?

---

I know, I know, innovation, never been done before, game changer, totally new approach to making holsters, industry altering tech...blah blah blah. It's a hunk of 3D printed plastic...

Excellent—and likely prescient—summary.





If you were looking for Ferrari performance would you jump on the nearest forum you can get to and feed them the same argument about how expensive it is?

Rebuttal fail. We already have “Ferrari performance” in such items as the 5-star SME. What we have here is tantamount to a passenger car company claiming to have significantly decreased weight and increased performance of their unseen and unproven new sports car by using copious “innovative” techniques of 3-D printing chassis and body components, etc.

Yet it’s still Ferrari money, whenever it becomes available.

All that most are saying here is: for Ferrari money, I think I’d rather just buy the Ferrari.

It’s incumbent on RCS to prove that this thing kicks a Ferrari holster’s ass for the same $, and I wish them the best with their efforts.
JMO.

[RealSelf]

This time I am going to directly ask the question:

Are you associated in a professional/semi-professional setting with Raven Concealment Systems?

Astroturfing is expressly forbidden by P-F's Code of Conduct. If you are you need to expressly state as much. At this stage your vehement defense of RCS, this product, and its performance makes it appear that you have some type of knowledge or inside information that others are lacking, implying a professional connection with RCS.




Well, not that it is super relevant, but...

I have a small business with a P-F member here (link in my signature). I was part owner and manager for my family's construction business until my father retired - that was ~20 years. And I run an academic research program which is running a business - in that I am responsible and the decisions I make have massive consequences on myself and lab members - including whether or not they can eat, pay rent, and live. Which means if I fuck up - the consequences are very fucking real.

So, yes...I am/have been in the position where I have to own every decision I make. I have to deal with the consequences of those decisions. And as a result, whether you like it or not - I am imminently fucking qualified to assess the business decisions and marketing decisions of various other companies with both a critical eye and a careful one.

This makes the second time you have crammed your foot in your mouth, thoroughly, in this thread. I, personally, derive no joy from this. I suggest that you cease your attempts to attack and/or tear down me or others in defense of an RCS product. One that only a select few have had opportunity to assess hands on.

I'm not cramming my foot in my mouth and have not at any point here, I'm just tired of dealing with assholes here that are full of themselves. I know this is likely hard to believe but some of us simply disengage seeing the futility of attempting to share an opposing viewpoint with such a dense human beings as yourself. Zero affiliation with RCS, have some of their stuff along with JMCK, DSG, PHLster, etc. I don't have a dog in this fight but your hatred towards a company that has tried to innovate is extreme IMO.

[RevolverRob]

I'm not cramming my foot in my mouth and have not at any point here, I'm just tired of dealing with assholes here that are full of themselves. I know this is likely hard to believe but some of us simply disengage seeing the futility of attempting to share an opposing viewpoint with such a dense human beings as yourself. Zero affiliation with RCS, have some of their stuff along with JMCK, DSG, PHLster, etc. I don't have a dog in this fight but your hatred towards a company that has tried to innovate is extreme IMO.

This is an absolutely hilarious response.

I don't know you, your range of experience, your knowledge base, or what you do professionally. I know what I do professionally, as a hobby, and even semi-professionally. And it has a lot to do with studying trends, data, pattern recognition, and even making kydex things.

If you were sharing an opposing viewpoint in a productive and constructive way or making a cogent point about things, I might be willing to hear you out. That is actually a huge part of my job and the way I am. I am, perhaps surprising to you, one of the most rational, reasonable, objective, and balanced people out there and I'd give the shirt off my back to help virtually anyone.

But thus far you have made zero contribution to this thread or the discussion of this holster design. You have actually contributed far less to the material discussion of this holster. In fact, though you can't seem to be unbiased in it - you can go look at my posts and see my comments on the clarity if the production decisions and products.

Your main contributions here have been to say, "RCS innovates through using new technology. Name another company that does that!" - I named several, three specifically, plus another that I didn't name, but happen to co-own, that use CAD and even...gasp...additive manufacturing to produce prototypes and design products (did you see that coming?).

Hatred towards a company? Not even a little bit. I actually own multiple RCS products myself (and did you see that one coming?)

The difference between our two points of view is being realistic and experienced enough to recognize both a long history of middling product (this may also surprise you, but I've been knowing about and even using RCS products since ~2006) AND spending a not insignificant portion of my time studying and making things in addition to having a wee bit (I guess now...almost 25 years) of experience in running businesses.

I harbor no ill will towards you or RCS and I do hope they succeed in this endeavor. I also hope to one day take Sydney Sweeney out on a date. I'm not willing to bet my money on either of those, based on experience.

With this, I conclude our conversation.

[RealSelf]

This is an absolutely hilarious response.

I don't know you, your range of experience, your knowledge base, or what you do professionally. I know what I do professionally, as a hobby, and even semi-professionally. And it has a lot to do with studying trends, data, pattern recognition, and even making kydex things.

If you were sharing an opposing viewpoint in a productive and constructive way or making a cogent point about things, I might be willing to hear you out. That is actually a huge part of my job and the way I am. I am, perhaps surprising to you, one of the most rational, reasonable, objective, and balanced people out there and I'd give the shirt off my back to help virtually anyone.

But thus far you have made zero contribution to this thread or the discussion of this holster design. You have actually contributed far less to the material discussion of this holster. In fact, though you can't seem to be unbiased in it - you can go look at my posts and see my comments on the clarity if the production decisions and products.

Your main contributions here have been to say, "RCS innovates through using new technology. Name another company that does that!" - I named several, three specifically, plus another that I didn't name, but happen to co-own, that use CAD and even...gasp...additive manufacturing to produce prototypes and design products (did you see that coming?).

Hatred towards a company? Not even a little bit. I actually own multiple RCS products myself (and did you see that one coming?)

The difference between our two points of view is being realistic and experienced enough to recognize both a long history of middling product (this may also surprise you, but I've been knowing about and even using RCS products since ~2006) AND spending a not insignificant portion of my time studying and making things in addition to having a wee bit (I guess now...almost 25 years) of experience in running businesses.

I harbor no ill will towards you or RCS and I do hope they succeed in this endeavor. I also hope to one day take Sydney Sweeney out on a date. I'm not willing to bet my money on either of those, based on experience.

With this, I conclude our conversation.

Your reply makes my point, you have just given me your entire 'claim to fame' unsolicited when I never asked for it. You condemned the product and price prior to ever experiencing it for yourself, this is a rather grand display of arrogance which you defend with your immense 'experience'. This is a SUBJECTIVE matter, my friend. Everyone has a different take on holsters and the fact that you call RCS a mid-level product shows that you feel your views are holier-than-tho. You have every right to say that is where you rate them but it seems you expect others to share your viewpoints. Please just stop passing judgement, the world is full of judges... we don't need anymore. Why not simply not buy it and keep your mouth shut? Because you like making drama about as much as a 10 year old girl does...

[RevolverRob]

Edited: On second thought. Nah, not worth the effort.

[camel]

Your reply makes my point, you have just given me your entire 'claim to fame' unsolicited when I never asked for it. You condemned the product and price prior to ever experiencing it for yourself, this is a rather grand display of arrogance which you defend with your immense 'experience'. This is a SUBJECTIVE matter, my friend. Everyone has a different take on holsters and the fact that you call RCS a mid-level product shows that you feel your views are holier-than-tho. You have every right to say that is where you rate them but it seems you expect others to share your viewpoints. Please just stop passing judgement, the world is full of judges... we don't need anymore. Why not simply not buy it and keep your mouth shut? Because you like making drama about as much as a 10 year old girl does...

I’ll say this. You are a troll who picks a fight. And you pass judgement under a different name. Just because you do not like what you see doesn’t mean a difference of opinion. Okay my man. You really need to chill.

[Sig_Fiend]

Your reply makes my point, you have just given me your entire 'claim to fame' unsolicited when I never asked for it. You condemned the product and price prior to ever experiencing it for yourself, this is a rather grand display of arrogance which you defend with your immense 'experience'. This is a SUBJECTIVE matter, my friend. Everyone has a different take on holsters and the fact that you call RCS a mid-level product shows that you feel your views are holier-than-tho. You have every right to say that is where you rate them but it seems you expect others to share your viewpoints. Please just stop passing judgement, the world is full of judges... we don't need anymore. Why not simply not buy it and keep your mouth shut? Because you like making drama about as much as a 10 year old girl does...

Here's an idea. If you feel that strongly about it, how about you buy the $200 holster and prove us all wrong?

[Up1911Fan]

RCS has gone downhill for the last 10 years, I didn't read the whole thread, but somebody please tell me that thing isn't 200 fucking dollars?

[camsdaddy]

My initial impression is it looks to be made by Tupperware and based off of a dish strainer. Time will tell this may be the next big thing

[camsdaddy]

RCS has gone downhill for the last 10 years, I didn't read the whole thread, but somebody please tell me that thing isn't 200 fucking dollars?

I hate to be the one.

[JT007immy]

Looks alright , I might try if the price is "right" .. with raven I double it
Who pays more than $100s for a piece of kydex anyway .. ??
So Nah ..

[Cool Breeze]

I read the whole thread and saw the Instagram photos. However, I still don't understand what the unique value proposition of this product is. Is this the most concealable? Is it the most comfortable? Is it the easiest way to carry a reload?

If I remember correctly, the unique value proposition of the Perun was that they were trying to produce a holster that was the easiest to manufacture, least amount of material, and be modular. That is to say, they said it was designed for a gov contract to limit the amount of sku numbers that needed to approved.

I still don't understand what need this solves or what unique features this has from the consumer perspective that are different. If the manufacturing process is the most unique thing about it...that is irrelevant to me. That's just an internal business decision and production issue...not a customer facing issue.

[HCountyGuy]

Your reply makes my point, you have just given me your entire 'claim to fame' unsolicited when I never asked for it. You condemned the product and price prior to ever experiencing it for yourself, this is a rather grand display of arrogance which you defend with your immense 'experience'. This is a SUBJECTIVE matter, my friend. Everyone has a different take on holsters and the fact that you call RCS a mid-level product shows that you feel your views are holier-than-tho. You have every right to say that is where you rate them but it seems you expect others to share your viewpoints. Please just stop passing judgement, the world is full of judges... we don't need anymore. Why not simply not buy it and keep your mouth shut? Because you like making drama about as much as a 10 year old girl does...

Allow me to be the biggest asshole in the room. It's my specialty.

You quite condescendingly asked those condemning this overpriced plastic brick of a gunholder if they had any experience running a business. RR quite succinctly answered and, in my opinion, proved himself more than qualified to debate the subject. So you did, in fact, ask for it. You apparently don't like the answer and are trying to backpedal and also move the goal posts.

While I hate to be the one using appeal to accomplishment the general active membership here has a moderate bit of experience with holsters, enough to know the proposed price isn't likely to match up to whatever claimed superawesomeninjagunning advantages this holster supposedly provides. It's been repeatedly stated we hope there's success with this and perhaps there's some manner of whizbangery to discover we're somehow limited in deducing from evaluation of the overall design. However, knowing what the community here knows about holsters and the general beneficial traits that aid in effectively concealing and comfortably carrying a gun all day from what's likely enough boxes of holsters between us to fill up a small warehouse there's a reasonable skepticism.

You continue to take any criticism of this as yet unreleased product as some personal attack akin to having kicked in your door and murdered your dog. You're the one perpetuating drama by getting your panties in a wad and playing passive-aggressive with folks rightfully expressing reservations of this being the greatest leap forward in holster technology ever.

As of now, RR has at least provided some background in order to help grant weight to his opinion on this matter. Until you provide something of having similar or greater knowledge/experience on why we should value YOUR opinion at all, howsabout you kitten off?

[camel]

Allow me to be the biggest asshole in the room. It's my specialty.

You quite condescendingly asked those condemning this overpriced plastic brick of a gunholder if they had any experience running a business. RR quite succinctly answered and, in my opinion, proved himself more than qualified to debate the subject. So you did, in fact, ask for it. You apparently don't like the answer and are trying to backpedal and also move the goal posts.

While I hate to be the one using appeal to accomplishment the general active membership here has a moderate bit of experience with holsters, enough to know the proposed price isn't likely to match up to whatever claimed superawesomeninjagunning advantages this holster supposedly provides. It's been repeatedly stated we hope there's success with this and perhaps there's some manner of whizbangery to discover we're somehow limited in deducing from evaluation of the overall design. However, knowing what the community here knows about holsters and the general beneficial traits that aid in effectively concealing and comfortably carrying a gun all day from what's likely enough boxes of holsters between us to fill up a small warehouse there's a reasonable skepticism.

You continue to take any criticism of this as yet unreleased product as some personal attack akin to having kicked in your door and murdered your dog. You're the one perpetuating drama by getting your panties in a wad and playing passive-aggressive with folks rightfully expressing reservations of this being the greatest leap forward in holster technology ever.

As of now, RR has at least provided some background in order to help grant weight to his opinion on this matter. Until you provide something of having similar or greater knowledge/experience on why we should value YOUR opinion at all, howsabout you kitten off?

Wow. Couple weeks of from last post and very succinct. Not that I know anyone personally. But yeah.

[Joe S]

I read the whole thread and saw the Instagram photos. However, I still don't understand what the unique value proposition of this product is. Is this the most concealable? Is it the most comfortable? Is it the easiest way to carry a reload?


Looking at it entirely from the outside, I can see for a .gov contract, a way to have one SKU that is issued for off-duty/plainclothes work, rather than 2 (holster and mag pouch), that simultaneously kinda forces John and Jane field agent to carry a reload that they otherwise forego or just stick in a pocket. I'm not saying that is the best solution, just that I can see someone thinking it is a solution.

[Cool Breeze]

Looking at it entirely from the outside, I can see for a .gov contract, a way to have one SKU that is issued for off-duty/plainclothes work, rather than 2 (holster and mag pouch), that simultaneously kinda forces John and Jane field agent to carry a reload that they otherwise forego or just stick in a pocket. I'm not saying that is the best solution, just that I can see someone thinking it is a solution.

I could see that. I just found it odd that the company creates this new thing yet doesn't explain anything about it, what it does, or how it does what it does. It is not evident in the pictures alone that this is a better mousetrap for the end user.

[Mirolynmonbro]

I still can't get over the $200 pricetag

[Sig_Fiend]

I still don't see any reason why this couldn't have been injection molded and about $20-40, mass produced, sold at every big box store and Bass Pro that carries holsters. I mean, experimenting with additive technology for this purpose is a potentially cool idea with some interesting propositions. That said, the future for this one looks kind of bleak so far.

[Default.mp3]

I still don't see any reason why this couldn't have been injection molded and about $20-40, mass produced, sold at every big box store and Bass Pro that carries holsters. I mean, experimenting with additive technology for this purpose is a potentially cool idea with some interesting propositions. That said, the future for this one looks kind of bleak so far.

Posted by Nick Booras
Reading the comments here make it clear that many don’t understand the logistics and economics of manufacturing molded products, so let’s do a very overly simplified analysis to highlight some key points. Yes, I said overly simplified, don't try to nitpick my numbers because that's not the point here.

Let’s say you want a line of holsters that only covers the Glock 17, Glock 19, and Glock 21-size frames (3 total). Each frame size will require its own injection mold tool, which costs around $50k and takes 3-9 months to complete once the tool is commissioned. Each of these frame sizes will also require a version compatible with the most popular weapon lights, so we’ll assume 3 different light options across Streamlight and SureFire. You’ll also need these in left handed configurations, so automatically double the SKU count.

Here’s the math: 3 Frame Sizes w/o Weapon Light x 3 Frame Sizes w/ Weapon Light x 2 for Left Handed Variants = 18 total tools x $50k/tool = $900k investment. If you commission all tools at the same time you can overlap on production, but you can’t make all 18 at once at one vendor, so let’s assume 3 tools in work at a time at a best case production rate of 3 months from kick off to completion, or 1 tool/month on average = 18 months to be producing and selling parts for these 3 frame sizes. Reality is closer to 6-9 months per tool, but let’s be aggressive for the sake of argument. If you make $50 per holster, that puts your break even at 1000 units per tool, or 18,000 units across all variants, before you make a single penny of profit.

Do the math again for versions with compensators, a side car option, maybe one additional cant angle, and you’re still ONLY covering the 3 most popular Glock frame sizes and configurations. Do the math again to add the other most popular guns in America, including the G43/48, SIG P320, SIG P365, S&W M&P, 1911, and Springfield XD. Do the math again to add the lower volume gun variants/manufacturers like Staccato, CZ, Walther, and Beretta. Do the math again when Ruger or IWI launch a new gun, or worse yet make a modification that renders your tool obsolete and you have to invest tens of thousands of dollars and months of time to modify or recreate a new tool to accommodate the new hot thing.

So, to those of you questioning whether 3D printing is the future for holsters, this is why the answer is unquestionably yes. If an institutional user commits to a high volume, i.e. 100,000 generic P320 holsters for DHS, then yes, an injection mold might be the right option, but for everything else, 3D printing is the future.

One more thing to add…there are a lot of uninformed customers shitting on RCS and Michael for this entire concept right now, but I guarantee every holster maker in the country is on their order list and is already working on their own printed designs.

Source: https://www.facebook.com/groups/PSPrimarySecondary/permalink/7448327785213657/?comment_id=7448816011831501

[Sig_Fiend]

Posted by Nick Booras
Reading the comments here make it clear that many don't understand the logistics and economics of manufacturing molded products, so let's do a very overly simplified analysis to highlight some key points. Yes, I said overly simplified, don't try to nitpick my numbers because that's not the point here.

Let's say you want a line of holsters that only covers the Glock 17, Glock 19, and Glock 21-size frames (3 total). Each frame size will require its own injection mold tool, which costs around $50k and takes 3-9 months to complete once the tool is commissioned. Each of these frame sizes will also require a version compatible with the most popular weapon lights, so we'll assume 3 different light options across Streamlight and SureFire. You'll also need these in left handed configurations, so automatically double the SKU count.

Here's the math: 3 Frame Sizes w/o Weapon Light x 3 Frame Sizes w/ Weapon Light x 2 for Left Handed Variants = 18 total tools x $50k/tool = $900k investment. If you commission all tools at the same time you can overlap on production, but you can't make all 18 at once at one vendor, so let's assume 3 tools in work at a time at a best case production rate of 3 months from kick off to completion, or 1 tool/month on average = 18 months to be producing and selling parts for these 3 frame sizes. Reality is closer to 6-9 months per tool, but let's be aggressive for the sake of argument. If you make $50 per holster, that puts your break even at 1000 units per tool, or 18,000 units across all variants, before you make a single penny of profit.

Do the math again for versions with compensators, a side car option, maybe one additional cant angle, and you're still ONLY covering the 3 most popular Glock frame sizes and configurations. Do the math again to add the other most popular guns in America, including the G43/48, SIG P320, SIG P365, S&W M&P, 1911, and Springfield XD. Do the math again to add the lower volume gun variants/manufacturers like Staccato, CZ, Walther, and Beretta. Do the math again when Ruger or IWI launch a new gun, or worse yet make a modification that renders your tool obsolete and you have to invest tens of thousands of dollars and months of time to modify or recreate a new tool to accommodate the new hot thing.

So, to those of you questioning whether 3D printing is the future for holsters, this is why the answer is unquestionably yes. If an institutional user commits to a high volume, i.e. 100,000 generic P320 holsters for DHS, then yes, an injection mold might be the right option, but for everything else, 3D printing is the future.

One more thing to add...there are a lot of uninformed customers shitting on RCS and Michael for this entire concept right now, but I guarantee every holster maker in the country is on their order list and is already working on their own printed designs.

Source: https://www.facebook.com/groups/PSPrimarySecondary/permalink/7448327785213657/?comment_id=7448816011831501

Thank you for that, seriously. Learning has occurred. Damn, it's still morning and I've already become "that guy" for the day. ;) Went ahead and signed up for the wait list as penance. Learn from my mistakes.

The $10 gets you into Raven's private social platform which has additional details and pics of the product in use/testing. I actually kind of like what I see. No sooner have I made a fool of myself this morning, and here I am now kind of considering buying this thing. ;)

As an aside, from a marketing and business standpoint, I think what Raven is doing with this private social site is a fantastic idea more manufacturers should take advantage of. A lot of value for all sides in that potential for interaction, even at the prototype stage of product development.

[Cool Breeze]

I still contest the manufacturing process is still irrelevant to the end user. How does this benefit me? The argument is that they can create any configuration at a lower tool up cost than injection molding. Cool - then why aren't those savings being passed on to the consumer as this thing is still $200. The is the similar argument they made with the Perun and its price reflected those savings. Something seems rotten in the state of Denmark.

[WobblyPossum]

I still contest the manufacturing process is still irrelevant to the end user. How does this benefit me? The argument is that they can create any configuration at a lower tool up cost than injection molding. Cool - then why aren't those savings being passed on to the consumer as this thing is still $200. The is the similar argument they made with the Perun and its price reflected those savings. Something seems rotten in the state of Denmark.

Bingo. It’s long been known that setting up for injection molding production was expensive and time consuming. Additive manufacturing/3D Printing should greatly decrease both the cost of production and the time necessary to get products to market. So why is this the most expensive plastic holster ever sold? Shouldn’t it be cheaper than the average injection molded holster?

[HeavyDuty]

Bingo. It’s long been known that setting up for injection molding production was expensive and time consuming. Additive manufacturing/3D Printing should greatly decrease both the cost of production and the time necessary to get products to market. So why is this the most expensive plastic holster ever sold? Shouldn’t it be cheaper than the average injection molded holster?

I think it depends on the run time.

[RevolverRob]

I still contest the manufacturing process is still irrelevant to the end user. How does this benefit me? The argument is that they can create any configuration at a lower tool up cost than injection molding. Cool - then why aren't those savings being passed on to the consumer as this thing is still $200. The is the similar argument they made with the Perun and its price reflected those savings. Something seems rotten in the state of Denmark.

It doesn't benefit you.

Theoretically, the ability to scale from prototype to production in hours or days is great for rapidly responding to a changing market and demands. If new guns dropped every single day and they all needed holsters this would be great for you the consumer...IF...Bespoke holster makers did not exist. But they do exist, in plethora. And they make better quality products at lower prices.

This structure is not a benefit to civilian consumers. Actually, seeing the ad copy and what RCS is saying has made it clear to me what this is...it's a sales pitch for agency level contracts. You need to be able to show rapid production capabilities and ability to flexibly pivot as a vendor on DoD and especially DARPA contracts. And additive manufacturing gives you that flexibility.

It doesn't appeal to consumers in many respects - because you're able to acquire bespoke products at good prices and usually decent time line. You also have the luxury to wait. But someone who needs 20,000 units NEXT WEEK can't call Milt Sparks.

Which means for this product to succeed on the civilian market - there needs to be a compelling argument as to its superiority to pre-existing products to include bespoke holsters. Perhaps RCS is revealing those strengths in their private social interaction page. I wouldn't know, because I'm not paying for membership to the RCS social club.

[vcdgrips]

Ramble follows:

I wish RCS nothing but great success in this endeavor. The market will speak on this with great clarity.

A sweet spot for many quality KYDEX holsters (left/right, optic/no optic, light/no light) is 100ish shipped.

in the early-mid 2000's, RCS was on the cutting edge of mass produced, concealable kydex and many folks had shallower learning curves as a result of their products then and to to date. They may be cutting edge again with a successful 3D-offering

Here is the thing about your 100.00 kydex holster and your 35.00 mag carrier- they work great right up until the time they crack. And they all crack, sooner or later. Use, abuse, and occasionally, poor workmanship. Some of you will make a warranty claim, many will not as they have carried the holster for years with thousands of presentations etc.

If this is a product that works for you at 170 with the discount and will not crack relative to kydex such that its life is much longer (as most injection molded stuff is relative to kydex), the value proposition become better.

Holster type and position are extremely personal. I remain stunned by the adamancy of folks, built just like me ( 6' 3' 205 ish, 44l, 34-36/34) who say they cannot conceal a G19 in casual clothes that are not insanely oversized.

Another mild irony is how many folks in our community are virulently capitialist, unless it involves spending their own money and then they think folks should give their products away, nevermind the time, talent and treasure that went into developing the product. In short, a company owes us no duty to pass savings on if the market will otherwise bear a higher price. It is often good business that they do, but in the end, the market will bear what the market bears and we get a vote with our "checkbook."

[ViniVidivici]

It's an interesting design. I guess time will tell if the 3d printed material has the same longevity as Kydex/Boltaron, or injection-molded designs.

I like what they've done for the spare mag, it overlaps behind the gun, in a way you can't really do with traditional designs. This appears to serve the function of the "hump" or "extra tuck" options we see with JMCK & Tenicor. Brilliant. That'll be nice for those who want a spare mag integrated with the holster (I'm not one of those, however).

They sure do like their Raven Hook clips, don't they? I do not. I have discovered through training that they are weak.

If there was a way to switch them out with DCC clips or struts with fixed soft loops (my preferrence) that's be cool. And a way to adjust mounting height would appeal to many.

Looks to me like it's absolutely optics capable, at least with an RMR footprint type. Big plus there.

Nice smooth contours on the inboard side, looks very comfortable. Full sweat guard is good too, as it should be.

Looks decent, but I can't see what this does that my trusty JMCK AIWB, which I bought here from Cool Breeze a few years ago, that I carry in every day, doesn't already do.

[Cool Breeze]

Nothing in this thread seems anti-capitalist to me. If every single wall street analyst can discuss company strategy, product offerings, comparative offerings, etc. than so can I.