.44 Special & .45 Colt for large game

[Ed L]

I have seen a number of posts in various threads which state that a .44 Special or .45 Colt that uses 240-255 grain Keith style semi-wadcutter travelling at 900-1000 feet per second is a match for any animal in the lower 48 states. However, I haven't found a thread that discusses this exclusively, so I am starting this thread because I would like to hear more about it.

Here are some individual posts about this taken from different threads on this board that mention this topic:


Quite frankly, all that extra velocity does is increase recoil, increase gun wear and inconsequentially flatten trajectory. Any of the large meplat .44 caliber full weight bullets will work just fine at 900 fps and are a lot easier to manage at that level. I'd be shocked if you ever recover even a 900 fps bullet from anything elk size down that's shot from side to side. I've used .44 and .45 SWCs a 875-900 fps to shoot lengthwise through enough deer to know that's a hopeless pursuit. Those big bullets knock a good hole all the way through the critter...


I would be good with either but most comfortable with the big heavy 250s.

I have zero doubt that both would get complete penetration on a skull. Everywhere else is the question. I know that the 250s essentially duplicate the old .45 Colt load, and that was/is a load that has an incredibly long and established history of killing all manner of beasts from big bears to horses (and their riders) to buffalo (Bison). Pretty much anything that walked was taken by the .45 Colt and a heavy slug at moderate speeds.

I know I have killed a good amount of things with a 1911 and heavy slugs to include multiple elk.

The majority of people when they think .45 ACP, think a 230 grain at 750-800 fps. They have no idea about what it can really do when loaded to its potential.



John Linebaugh (RIP) shared that opinion and proved it repeatedly. All one gains from his massive bore guns was more penetration and the ability to use larger and heavier slugs. Elmer Keith, Ross Seyfried, John Taffin and others as well have tried all the hot rods but 250 @1000 will kill anything that walks the continent with proper placement and bullet selection.

[03RN]

I can only speak of deer up to 200lbs and a 255gr swc at 1-1200fps from my Blackhawk, redhawk, and 16" puma m92.

It absolutely hammers deer. Very similar to 12 gauge slugs. I've had exits on 200lbs deer after breaking both shoulders and a shoulder/rear hip.

[GJM]

The Garret defender load, which is a 310 grain hard cast at about 1000 FPS out of a 4 inch barrel is what I use in my 329 scandium revolvers in Alaska. I once shot a wounded mule deer buck at 40 something yards up the backside and it exited out the front DRT.

https://www.garrettcartridges.com/44defendertech.html

[okie john]

Interesting reading at https://www.johnlinebaughcustomsixguns.com/writings

Near the end:


I have personally taken about 10 antelope and 1 mule deer with a .45 Colt. My boys have taken around 6 antelope and 5 mule deer with their .45 Colts. They use a 4 3/4" Colt SA and the handload is a 260 Keith cast at 900 fps. This load will shoot lengthwise of antelope and mule deer at 100 yards. In my estimation it kills as well as the .270, 30-06 class rifles if the shots are placed properly. If I were hunting heavier game I'd step up the velocity to 1200 fps and in extreme circumstances, (elk, hogs, bear) go to the 310 gr cast slug. This load, 310 at 1200 will go through elk like so much air. These loads can be managed by anyone who is serious about handgunning big game. The .45 gives them a minimum of recoil and blast. I think the .45 Colt has a lot to do with this as it gives them big bore power without big bore recoil and blast.

I've never used a handgun to kill anything bigger than a whitetail, but I can vouch for the effectiveness of a 250-grain SWC at 1,000 fps on them.

When the War Department went looking for the 45 Colt cartridge, a major criteria was the ability to kill a horse at 100 yards, which it did with a conical bullet. Elmer Keith realized that switching to flat-point designs made the even handgun more effective. His legacy is not just the 44 Magnum cartridge but better bullet design.


Okie John

[Ed L]

There are some great posts in this thread.


The Garret defender load, which is a 310 grain hard cast at about 1000 FPS out of a 4 inch barrel is what I use in my 329 scandium revolvers in Alaska. I once shot a wounded mule deer buck at 40 something yards up the backside and it exited out the front DRT.

https://www.garrettcartridges.com/44defendertech.html

I would think that a 310 grain load travelling at 1000 FPS that is fired from a scandium framed revolver would feel like a Magnum load.

[oregon45]

One sometimes overlooked aspect of the use of large diameter lead semi-wadcutters and LBT-style hunting bullets is the ability to punch through and provide an exit hole, which can make tracking easier. Keith wrote about this, as well as his followers Taffin, Pearce, Linebaugh and others. The assumption being that large, tough, animals like Elk can take a substantial hit and keep moving making any advantage in tracking worth pursuing--particularly if hunting in heavy cover.

John Linebaugh's description of heavy bullets at moderate velocities as a "long range punch press" is probably the best, short, description I've read of the concept.

[GJM]

There are some great posts in this thread.



I would think that a 310 grain load travelling at 1000 FPS that is fired from a scandium framed revolver would feel like a Magnum load.

Nobody said shooting a 329 was fun.

[mikey357]

Nobody said shooting a 329 was fun.

Nobody who is SANE ever said it, that's for sure!

[GJM]

Here is my wife out and about in AK fifteen years ago, carrying her .44 with Garrett loads, and her 45-70, also with Garrett loads.

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[okie john]

I would think that a 310 grain load travelling at 1000 FPS that is fired from a scandium framed revolver would feel like a Magnum load.

Those loads feel like magnums no matter what gun you use.


Okie John

[Velociginger]

I hunt with handguns almost exclusively. I’ve taken piles of deer with .45 Colt; it’s my main hunting gun. I use a 255gr SWC that I cast out of a Lee mold and powder coat. It’s very accurate and shootable.
That bullet does tend to keep going through most meat targets in my experience, either shoulder or head-shot, wild pigs or deer.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I hunt with handguns almost exclusively. I’ve taken piles of deer with .45 Colt; it’s my main hunting gun. I use a 255gr SWC that I cast out of a Lee mold and powder coat. It’s very accurate and shootable.
That bullet does tend to keep going through most meat targets in my experience, either shoulder or head-shot, wild pigs or deer.

What's your load for that 255?

[Duces Tecum]

Following.

[Velociginger]

Obligatory precaution: this load might hurt you, don’t do what I do/you’ll shoot your eye out.

I shoot 12.7 grains of HS6, magnum primer (that’s what I have the most of). It’s out of Ruger Bisley Blackhawk 6.5in barrel. Lee SWC mold (plain base) scrap lead (plumbers lead, shot, some solder, wheel weights, whatever) and powder coated in the toaster oven in the garage.

[okie john]

What's your load for that 255?

Not that guy, but I like 10/Unique in the 44 Magnum. Seems to work well in other similar cartridges, too. 8 or 9 grains works well also.


Okie John

[Outpost75]

I would put the .44-40 in the same category. In heat treated post-1920 Colt revolvers, the modern Italian clones, S&W 544 and the Rugers the Accurate 43-206H or 43-240F make effective game loads with 18.5 grains of IMR4227 or 6.5 grains of Bullseye. While they do exceed factory standard pressure, they are safely within design limits for modern guns < 18,000 psi, similar to .45 ACP, about 900 fps from a 5-1/2""revolver with B-C gap at Mean Assembly Tolerance of pass 0.005" / hold 0.006".

I normally use the Bullseye load with the 206 stump-nosed Keith homage and 4227 with the 240 WFN. Velocity about + 150 fps in Winchester carbine. Complete pass-throughs on hogs, black bear, feral cattle, either carbine or revolver. Can cull deer 2 at a time with one shot if clustered together close.

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[Malamute]

I would put the .44-40 in the same category. In heat treated post-1920 Colt revolvers, the modern Italian clones, S&W 544 and the Rugers the Accurate 43-206H or 43-240F make effective game loads with 18.5 grains of IMR4227 or 6.5 grains of Bullseye. While they do exceed factory standard pressure, they are safely within design limits for modern guns < 18,000 psi, similar to .45 ACP, about 900 fps from a 5-1/2""revolver with B-C gap at Mean Assembly Tolerance of pass 0.005" / hold 0.006".

I normally use the Bullseye load with the 206 stump-nosed Keith homage and 4227 with the 240 WFN. Velocity about + 150 fps in Winchester carbine. Complete pass-throughs on hogs, black bear, feral cattle, either carbine or revolver. Can cull deer 2 at a time with one shot if clustered together close...



Have you used the Lyman 429215 any? I have a mold to try, thinking it can somewhat fill the geezer niche for 44 mag/spl with reduced recoil and reduced depletion of my lead supply. I want to try it in the Browning 92 carbine with moderate loads as well as 44 mags and spl pistols. Most comments Ive seen about 44-40 with black powder level loads seem to shoot through deer, I thought the slightly higher velocity on the medium 44 mag loads (1500 fps range) should work fine also and keep my shoulder happier.

[SCCY Marshal]

Nobody said shooting a 329 was fun.

It's a peach with standard specials and perfectly enjoyable with Lost River's 900 FPS load.

[Outpost75]

Have you used the Lyman 429215 any? I have a mold to try, thinking it can somewhat fill the geezer niche for 44 mag/spl with reduced recoil and reduced depletion of my lead supply. I want to try it in the Browning 92 carbine with moderate loads as well as 44 mags and spl pistols. Most comments Ive seen about 44-40 with black powder level loads seem to shoot through deer, I thought the slightly higher velocity on the medium 44 mag loads (1500 fps range) should work fine also and keep my shoulder happier.

I used it years ago with good results, but these days wish to avoid the added cost of gas checks. I feel higher velocity unnecessary.

[jds44]

I load my 5 1/2'' .45 Colt Rugers with 10 grains of Unique and a 255 LSWC. It clocks right at 1000fps from a 5 1/2'' barrel. I haven't shot anything bigger that whitetails with it, but I wouldn't hesitate to. I've never had one stop inside a critter yet.

https://i.imgur.com/FMfZs7U.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/zU1DoVL.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/xlLLIX7.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/DKKbNfc.jpg

[Malamute]

I used it years ago with good results, but these days wish to avoid the added cost of gas checks. I feel higher velocity unnecessary.

Thanks.

In looking for info about it before buying it, several people on the castboolit forum mentioned using them with and without gas checks with good results. Ill give it a try and see how it goes without for medium level loads.

[Lost River]

Fantastic topic.

I need to eventually get around to taking some old 35mm pics and turning them digital. Have a few old cruddy pics of critters from years past taken with .44s and .45s.

Anyways, thought you guys may enjoy this.

I was out shooting the other day. Was shooting my commercial .44 Special load, which is a .240 grain hardcast SWC that clocks 900 FPS from a 5" barrel.

was using both my 5" Model 29 Classic .44 Mag, with red dot optic, as well as my 7.5" Ruger Flattop .44 Mag (iron sights).

Pretty notable difference in group sizes.

https://i.imgur.com/IS0BR5mh.jpg


I also realized that my 1950s era Flattop .44 was obviously zeroed for something else entirely. Probably a 300 grain load, since the point of impact was substantially lower. You can see the group with the Blackhawk is well more than double the size, even without the "flyer", and is really 3x the size of the groups shot with the Model 29 with RDO.

The RDO allowed me to precisely punch tight little groups, versus a large fist size group with the iron sighted Blackhawk. Same ammo, just different sight systems.

[Lost River]

I guess it would help to mention that this was off the bags (that were on my tailgate of my old Land Cruiser) and the distance was 25 yards.

https://i.imgur.com/shCprT7h.jpg

[Dusty Stone]

I can only speak of deer up to 200lbs and a 255gr swc at 1-1200fps from my Blackhawk, redhawk, and 16" puma m92.

It absolutely hammers deer. Very similar to 12 gauge slugs. I've had exits on 200lbs deer after breaking both shoulders and a shoulder/rear hip.

Deer have no jointed shoulders to break, so if you're shooting them in the shoulder you're wasting meat. If you process your own wild game, you will find this out when separating the front legs from the rest of the carcass. Now the hip joints are another thing altogether as they are jointed.

[Tannhauser]

Deer have no jointed shoulders to break, so if you're shooting them in the shoulder you're wasting meat. If you process your own wild game, you will find this out when separating the front legs from the rest of the carcass. Now the hip joints are another thing altogether as they are jointed.

I agree with your observation on anatomy, as the front shoulders of a deer are attached only with muscle and connective tissue.

However, I do politely disagree with your assessment on a shoulder shot. It does water a little near, but it also tends to significantly reduce (or eliminate) mobility.

I’ve shot a fair number of deer with .44 240 XTP and .45 300 gr XTP bullets. With both rounds a behind the shoulder shot was fatal, but the deer were able to move a fair to significant distance after the shot.

A shoulder shot with these same bullets from the same guns were also fatal, but the broken shoulder(s) always resulted in the deer on the ground much faster.

[Tannhauser]

Autocorrect got me on that last post.

“It does water a little near, but it also tends to significantly reduce (or eliminate) mobility.” should be “ It does waste a little meat, but it also tends to significantly reduce (or eliminate) mobility.

[03RN]

Deer have no jointed shoulders to break, so if you're shooting them in the shoulder you're wasting meat. If you process your own wild game, you will find this out when separating the front legs from the rest of the carcass. Now the hip joints are another thing altogether as they are jointed.


Sometimes the hunting gods push the bullets a little off.

And like stated above, it does help reduce mobility which helps when you've got Posted land in sight.