Lipsey's S&W 432 Ultimate Carry J Frame long term shooting evaluation.

[Lost River]

I figured I would write this up as a thread that was separate from the other one about new 2024 Shot Show revolvers. This is going to be documenting shooting a fairly decent amount of rounds through the new 432 Ultimate Carry J Frame in .32 H&R.

I started a thread over on the 24 hour Campfire forum and for the sake of not re-writing everything, most of which is the same information, I am simply going to cut and paste that thread here for a couple of the posts at least:


Friends!

It has arrived!

https://i.imgur.com/m4JkDUEh.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/EN5gV4Uh.jpg

After carrying my ever present and faithful companion, S&W 442 for almost 25 years, I picked up a new J Frame. The 442 is not going anywhere, and is still going to get carried and shot, but it has a new, easier to shoot younger brother.

My 442 definitely has some miles on it. I finally exceeded roughly 6K rounds through it, but I am not sure exactly what the round count is. Suffice to say, it is still rocking along, but looks a little worse for wear (kind of like its owner).

https://i.imgur.com/hKLLatVl.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/21O1cg4l.jpg

Last year I was asked if I wanted to be involved with a project with Lipsey's, who are the distributors who worked with S&W to bring out the Ultimate Carry J Frames. Naturally I said yes! Long story short, I developed a load that would shoot to right to the sights for the gun. As it ended up it also shot to the sights on a Ruger LCR that I had on hand for product development.

(For those who don't know, I have a small custom handgun ammo business.)

The ammo (a 100 grain poly coated full wadcutter) ran right at about 800 FPS for me, and 794-796 for the guys down in Louisiana when they did their product launch. Pretty darn consistent.

Anyways, the gun came out fantastic. Besides the truly excellent grips, the sights are the first thing that really stand out. The front sight just Pops. It immediately catches your eye.

I kind of had a hard time getting a pic of it with my phone, but it is exceptional.


https://i.imgur.com/yaCrJItl.jpg

The front and rear sight combo is such a night and day difference compared to what we have worked with for decades on your typical J Frame. It is just truly impressive. Wish they would have done this 30 years ago! The rear sight is a big U shaped trough and it is very easy to line up.

The grips, I was a little amused. They are almost identical in size to what I had built up with vet wrap and hockey tape on my old 442. Obviously these look a whole lot nicer!

Here is a pic of my old 442 grips and the new 432 grips. You can see how close they are. Needless to say, they are great.

Nice to get a set of factory grips out of the box that are done right. Plus they are relieved for speedloaders.



https://i.imgur.com/g57zJQ6l.jpg


More to follow...

[Lost River]

So after working with and doing development on the .32 H&R, there was no question about which caliber I was going to get. The recoil characteristics were just night and day different. I carry 148 grain full wadcutters in my .38 Special 442 and have for years. They make the gun quite manageable and do great in terms of penetration.

What surprised me with the .32 H&R was just how light the recoil was. It was like shooting a .22 Magnum. Super light recoil, and as a bonus, you get 6 rounds instead of 5. Some have mentioned just carrying a rimfire, but it has been my experience that rimfire revolvers have always needed much heavier springs, which equates to much heavier trigger pulls to make them reliable. The .32 H&R eliminated that issue.

The real surprise for me was the penetration. I honestly did not expect much in that department. I figured it would go 14", maybe 16" I was way off base. Multiple people tested the 100 grain poly coated wadcutters. One report gave 22"s, and another came back at 24"s.

In fact, Jeff "Tank" Hoover, a writer for American Handgunner shot one of the .32 H&Rs with a bunch of different ammo, including the 100 grain poly coat wadcutters, and he got 24"s of penetration.

You can read about that in his article here:

https://americanhandgunner.com/our-experts/sw-ultimate-carry-ballistic-testing/?mibextid=Zxz2cZ


It really has proven to be a "Goldilocks" load. Super light recoil, and good penetration. Pretty hard to beat.

I decided that since I got my new 432 BUG that I really needed to familiarize myself with it, and the only way to do that is shoot it, and shoot it a LOT. When I was working on the Job, I used to shoot my 442 quite frequently, all the way out to 50 yards. In fact I cannot tell you the number of people who told me that snubby revolvers were only good for "bad breath distance" and you can't hit anything with that past arms distance, etc, etc. Only to show them on the range how very wrong that thinking was.

So my idea is to shoot the heck out of this gun over the next year or so and post up the results here. See how it does accuracy wise and how the gun holds up. Not so much a torture test, but to get used to shooting a J Frame a good bit once again. Plus using one with such dang nice sights will be a very nice change of pace! Plus I will take my old 442 Centennial along with some 148 grain poly coated wadcutters and see how they do as well.

It will give me an opportunity to shoot the Old School along side the New School and see how it all shakes out.


https://i.imgur.com/g57zJQ6l.jpg

[Totem Polar]

Looking forward to more updates as they happen, T, thanks for posting this!

You’ve pretty much just cemented which iteration I’m going to get, once the minor bugs are worked out (I’ve learned—more than once—not to buy first runs of anything, anymore).

Nice write up on a great gun/ammo/distributor project. Congrats on your part in this whole excellent launch.

[4given]

Lost River, I am waiting for my 632UC to come in and I already have a couple of boxes of your .32 wadcutters to try in it. I’m hoping it shoots them well as I want to use them as my carry ammo.

The waiting is the hardest part … somebody should write a song about that … 😁

[Totem Polar]

The waiting is the hardest part … somebody should write a song about that … 😁

That’s a little Petty, don’t you think?

[awp_101]

That’s a little Petty, don’t you think?
Tom, Richard or Charles E.?

[Totem Polar]

Tom, Richard or Charles E.?

Richard would have been pulling a fast one.

[mikey357]

Tom, Richard or Charles E.?

The "Bard of Micanopy", of course... :)

[Lost River]

Lost River, I am waiting for my 632UC to come in and I already have a couple of boxes of your .32 wadcutters to try in it. I’m hoping it shoots them well as I want to use them as my carry ammo.

The waiting is the hardest part … somebody should write a song about that … 😁

I know you might find it shocking, but those wadcutters are what I am carrying!:D

Prior to the penetration tests and results, which really opened my eyes, I would not have thought that they would have driven that deep, but obviously sectional density is not just a made up thing like the moon landing. Not saying the moon landing was faked, just that maybe the moon itself is fake. ** The next time you run into a conspiracy theory nut tell them the moon is not real!**;)

Anyways, I had planned on making a much heavier, deep penetrating load (for carry purposes), but after the gel penetration results from a couple of sources, I though "Why? This load has pretty much zilch for recoil and penetrates two feet of gel. How can you beat that?"

I probably will do another heavier load, something along the lines of a heavier grain, higher velocity, SWC load, but for day to day carry, I just don't see how you can beat the "Goldilocks" load of the 100 grain full wadcutter loads performance.

[Ghost Dog]

I know you might find it shocking, but those wadcutters are what I am carrying!:D

Prior to the penetration tests and results, which really opened my eyes, I would not have thought that they would have driven that deep, but obviously sectional density is not just a made up thing like the moon landing. Not saying the moon landing was faked, just that maybe the moon itself is fake. ** The next time you run into a conspiracy theory nut tell them the moon is not real!**;)

Anyways, I had planned on making a much heavier, deep penetrating load (for carry purposes), but after the gel penetration results from a couple of sources, I though "Why? This load has pretty much zilch for recoil and penetrates two feet of gel. How can you beat that?"

I probably will do another heavier load, something along the lines of a heavier grain, higher velocity, SWC load, but for day to day carry, I just don't see how you can beat the "Goldilocks" load of the 100 grain full wadcutter loads performance.

Just wondering, could you take what you learned and download a bit for .32 Long? Still quite a few million of those out there, and sounds like you would get 16" Clear Ballistics/13" Organic even from the Long that so many dismiss, yet Bad Boy Leroy Brown couldn't have been wrong in that whole damn town

[Lost River]

Just wondering, could you take what you learned and download a bit for .32 Long? Still quite a few million of those out there, and sounds like you would get 16" Clear Ballistics/13" Organic even from the Long that so many dismiss, yet Bad Boy Leroy Brown couldn't have been wrong in that whole damn town

I could, but it is not likely to happen, and here is why. I have an extremely limited amount of shop time each day. When you take out time for packaging, shipping, maintaining equipment emails, ordering supplies, dealing with all manner of issues, the actual production time is fairly small.

The number of offerings has to be kept limited. As an example I only offer 1 or 2 varieties of very popular offerings of cartridges like the .44 magnum. It takes too long to swap machines over. downtime is money lost.

When it comes to something like a .32 Long, yes I could make it, but for every customer with a .32 long revolver, there are probably literally 100X as many customers (or more) with .380 autos, so it makes much more sense to produce .380 ammo if I had the time to introduce another product. In fact some of the stats I have seen show .380 production over 3/4 million guns per year in the since (if I recall correctly) around 2016-17 and on.

Right now I am focusing on getting production volume up so I can have what I currently offer actually available. I need to make sure that things are in stock when people go to the website!

As cool as it would be to offer all manner of cartridges, its just not possible.

[GJM]

Speaking of penetration, if you needed to penetrate the skull of a grizzly, would you pick your .40 or .45 penetrator load?

[Lost River]

I would be good with either but most comfortable with the big heavy 250s.

I have zero doubt that both would get complete penetration on a skull. Everywhere else is the question. I know that the 250s essentially duplicate the old .45 Colt load, and that was/is a load that has an incredibly long and established history of killing all manner of beasts from big bears to horses (and their riders) to buffalo (Bison). Pretty much anything that walked was taken by the .45 Colt and a heavy slug at moderate speeds.

I know I have killed a good amount of things with a 1911 and heavy slugs to include multiple elk.

The majority of people when they think .45 ACP, think a 230 grain at 750-800 fps. They have no idea about what it can really do when loaded to its potential.

[BobM]

Great read. I’m waiting on a 632UC myself.

[feudist]

That’s a little Petty, don’t you think?

"He who would pun would pick a pocket."

[Wood]

Hey, great write-up, looking forward to seeing how your review develops with shooting. I also have a handful of boxes of your wadcutters waiting for a 632 (or 432, i haven't decided) to call home.

You say you have a .327 LCR? how would you compare it and your 432 in terms of trigger length? I have a J frame with the factory boot grips on it and can easily use the middle of the index finger, between the first two knuckles, to pull the trigger on it. Meanwhile, pulling the trigger on my LCR with the factory Tamer grips on it, I pretty much have to use the joint at the first knuckle of my finger to pull *that* trigger.

So, how do the high horns compare on that scale?

[Lost River]

Wood,

I just unloaded both and compared them side by side to get an idea. I gripped each so the frames were aligned with my forearm bones. I was able to get slightly more trigger finger onto the S&W versus the Ruger. Not much, but a little bit more. I have no doubt that if you switched grips from the VZs that come on the 432 UC to something smaller, that you could get a good bit more trigger finger onto the trigger if that was your goal.

I have size XL hands BTW.

On another note. Since it finally got dark, I took a couple pics of the front sight in a semi dark room. It really "Pops". It is a very bright front sight. No question about seeing it.

It is hard to capture with a cell phone but here are a couple pics.

https://i.imgur.com/MmXSU61l.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Vpn5vfxl.jpg

Its funny in that the room was MUCH darker than the pics show and the camera took a long time to take the pic. It looks like the gun is bent in the photo.

[Jamie]

Thank you for sharing this Lost River.

Great to see the side by side pics of your snubs. Your 442 shows character and companionship! I like that.

Your .32 is a "Goldilocks" load imho. I carry your ammo in my .38 and .32 (.327) LCR's and I have chronoed posted about it in other threads. Your loads are what I recommend to my snub carrying friends.

I am more than pleased to see the development of the .32 (in all aspects). I will definitely be looking in to purchasing a pair of these when finances allow.

Thanks to all involved with getting these guns, and more importantly this cartridge. breathing new life.

Really looking forward to the development of this thread over time.


ETA: And those sights! Damn nice!

[Dov]

Wood,

I just unloaded both and compared them side by side to get an idea. I gripped each so the frames were aligned with my forearm bones. I was able to get slightly more trigger finger onto the S&W versus the Ruger. Not much, but a little bit more. I have no doubt that if you switched grips from the VZs that come on the 432 UC to something smaller, that you could get a good bit more trigger finger onto the trigger if that was your goal.

I have size XL hands BTW.

On another note. Since it finally got dark, I took a couple pics of the front sight in a semi dark room. It really "Pops". It is a very bright front sight. No question about seeing it.

It is hard to capture with a cell phone but here are a couple pics.

https://i.imgur.com/MmXSU61l.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Vpn5vfxl.jpg

Its funny in that the room was MUCH darker than the pics show and the camera took a long time to take the pic. It looks like the gun is bent in the photo.

Are these sights regulated for bullet to hit on top of sight (12 O'clock) or behind front sight (like red dot or laser)?

[Lost River]

I just realized that I posted this in the other thread, and meant to post it in this EVAL thread. :rolleyes:







Finally have a few minutes to sit down and post about shooting the 432 UC for the first time before I have to get to work cranking out ammo!

On Sunday I went out and shot 150 rounds. Dang wind was blowing. Some times it was calm, but there were some gusts that made life difficult to say the least. I lost my final target in the end.


I had brought along my S&W 442 and G21.5 w/RDO as well. I figured I would see how the recoil was, shooting the 442 and 432, shooting them side by side, with the 100 grain and 148 grain poly wadcutter loads.


https://i.imgur.com/jrUTsHRl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/OCYGjXAl.jpg


My first six rounds at 15 yards with the 432:


https://i.imgur.com/8fcLrxGl.jpg


I shot six more for a total of 12 rounds then decided to adjust the rear sight. The rear sight is dove tailed in and has a set screw. I had a screw driver set, Brownell's brass hammer, along with a brass rod in case I needed to tighten any loose screws or whatever.

So I loosened the set screw and went to adjust the rear sight in the dovetail. Ha! That sucker is soo tight in there! Good news bad news (not really that bad). I tapped on it a few times with the brass rod while sitting on the tailgate. The good things is that the rear sight is so perfectly fit in there that the odds of you losing your rear sight if the set screw comes loose are extremely slim. After tapping on it a number of times and it not budging, and knowing my propensity for totally screwing up very nice things and totally regretting it, I decided I would wait until I got him and use proper tools and do it right! Sometimes I do learn from my own previous mistakes....

I may have a 1911 that still looks like a dog chewed on the rear sight from me adjusting the rear sight at a match with a Leatherman and a rock..
Not going to do that this time!

So I went back to shooting.


I shot my 442 with the old trough sights and there is just no comparison. So I cheated and used the CT laser grips. I will say that with 20 years of using CT laser grips, and thousands of rounds, the little 442 will stack them still. The laser grips are a definite advantage if the light is in your favor, like being indoors or on overcast days.

https://i.imgur.com/tX15Ujyl.jpg

I might consider some CT grips for the 432. The sights on the 432 are the best I have ever used on a J frame, no question about it, but having both would really be exceptional. I was considering this, but I REALLY like the shape of the grips on the 432. They are the best grips I have ever used on a stock J Frame. By a long shot.

So the wind started really picking up and I was having trouble keeping the IDPA target even stapled down. It finally blew off and I was unable to recover it. You can kind of see on the paper behind it how pretty consistent at 15 yards the .32 H&R was. To the upper left are some .38 148 grain WC holes as well, but the lower left are the main group from the 432.


https://i.imgur.com/z5aTfyol.jpg

In the end I had 3 boxes of 100 grain wadcutters through the 432. Pretty comfortable gun to shoot. Definitely a home run for Lipseys.

I shot the G21.5 after that at some rocks that I lasered in the mid 80 yards out to about 120 yards . That gun is a freaking tack driver. I am going to take it out on a nice day and set some steel up at extended distances and see what it can do. The Marksman barrels in the 5th Gen .45 guns are pretty exceptional.

I would have put some .45 on paper but my target I set aside for the G21 is probably in Wyoming by now...

[Moped]

I stopped in at my favorite LGS, to pay on the two guns I have in layaway (S&W Mdl 30 Flat Latch and a 53 Winchester 94 30-30) and of course I had to cruise the counter. They didn't have the 632, but they did have the Lipsey 642. I had to get it out and hold it.

MAN!!! What a great feeling revolver in the hand! Those grips are grippy, but not sticky. They are like the ones on your pistol, but greenish in color. Very nice trigger! And those sights!!! They are fantastic for a subbie!!! Really like the night sight on one!!! I was super impressed with it. If it had been a 632, I'd have had 3 guns in layaway and broken my one gun in layaway rule again!!!

[L-2]

Re: Post 21's comments.
Lipsey's actually has three different Lipsey's-special S&W 642 models:
https://www.lipseys.com/itemfinder?sort=default&q=642

But only one of the three Lipsey's 642 models has night sights, as mentioned, which would then be the 642UC.
https://www.lipseys.com/itemdetail?itemno=SM13995

[Moped]

Re: Post 21's comments.
But only one of the three Lipsey's 642 models has night sights, as mentioned, which would then be the 642UC.
https://www.lipseys.com/itemdetail?itemno=SM13995

That's the one!

[BN]

I think the 32 will sell really well. I'm almost resigned to not get one until the second batch. If I can't get one I'll probably get a Ruger or Taurus 327. I have some Lost River wadcutters ordered.

[Stephanie B]

I think the 32 will sell really well. I'm almost resigned to not get one until the second batch. If I can't get one I'll probably get a Ruger or Taurus 327. I have some Lost River wadcutters ordered.

Same, only I have 200 rounds of S&B .32 Long wadcutters. They don't take up much space on the shelf.

[Lost River]

Yesterday's weather was far nicer than the wind storm I tried to shoot in last Sunday.

I took my 432 UC and my G21.5 out to the range.

After adjusting the sights at home (purely guessing) I was back on the range to give it a try.

The first six rounds at 10 yards:

Once again, the ammo was my own making, these, which have been immensely popular:


https://i.imgur.com/bFYfp6tl.jpg


The first 6 rounds after the initial sight adjustment:

Obviously my guess was not quite on the money..

I ended up splitting the difference and getting it closer to the center...




https://i.imgur.com/JRKybhhl.jpg

The HKS Speedloaders came in too, so I used those while I was on the range. It is interesting to note, that even though they hold 6 rounds of .32 compared to 5 of .38, they are still a tad bit smaller. Aside from visually noticing the difference, I could tell just by handling them and slipping them into my pocket.

https://i.imgur.com/yf62sBFl.jpg

Went to 7 yards and put a bunch into the target, shooting two handed.

https://i.imgur.com/grANYE0l.jpg

Backed up to 10 yards and shot strong hand only, then weak hand only:

https://i.imgur.com/uCxLRTDl.jpg

I had a few rounds left that I shot at some distant shotgun shells that were littered on the ground, and watched them fly off. At least the one that I hit..

So now I have 250 rounds through the gun. The sights are miles above the old school design of the traditional J Frame. There is no question about it. The .32 is quite comfortable to shoot. The recoil makes putting one hundred rounds through the gun an enjoyable experience.

So taht is it until next time. Going to load up the speed loaders and carry at least one of those in my pocket when I carry the 432 as my BUG pocket gun.

[BobM]

What are your thoughts about using wadcutters in the speedloaders? I’d thought about getting some JHP loads for use in speed loaders and strips but if the wadcutters load smoothly enough I’d rather not bother with two different loads.

[awp_101]

The first 6 rounds after the initial sight adjustment:

Obviously my guess was not quite on the money..

I ended up splitting the difference and getting it closer to the center...


https://i.imgur.com/JRKybhhl.jpg

116219


;)

[Lost River]

What are your thoughts about using wadcutters in the speedloaders? I’d thought about getting some JHP loads for use in speed loaders and strips but if the wadcutters load smoothly enough I’d rather not bother with two different loads.

I am glad you brought that up, as I forgot to mention it.

The revolver has the cylinder charge holes chamfered a bit. I noted that the rounds slid in with relative ease. Not quite as easy as a round nose would but really no big deal. Definitely a good feature. It was one of those things that could have been overlooked, but obviously our friend JEC knows what he is doing when it comes to designing a revolver for carry!

There is enough jiggle or play in the speedloaders that loading the gun is pretty easy. I don't have any slow strips so I cannot comment on them. I guess I could see if they fit in my .38 strips.

[JEC]

I am glad you brought that up, as I forgot to mention it.

The revolver has the cylinder charge holes chamfered a bit. I noted that the rounds slid in with relative ease. Not quite as easy as a round nose would but really no big deal. Definitely a good feature. It was one of those things that could have been overlooked, but obviously our friend JEC knows what he is doing when it comes to designing a revolver for carry!

There is enough jiggle or play in the speedloaders that loading the gun is pretty easy. I don't have any slow strips so I cannot comment on them. I guess I could see if they fit in my .38 strips.

Speed Strips work pretty well with wadcutters in the UC guns for me. I think it helps that the Lost River wadcutter loads have a little of the bullet exposed and crimp into a crimp groove as opposed to some wadcutter loads I have tried that seat the bullet flush with the case.

[GearFondler]

Call me crazy or naive but I can't envision a situation where I'm attempting to speed load a J to the extent that wads vs rounded is the difference between life or death. That's just me.

[awp_101]

Call me crazy or naive but I can't envision a situation where I'm attempting to speed load a J to the extent that wads vs rounded is the difference between life or death. That's just me.

Maybe if the decedent(s) have friends around who are posturing but not feeling froggy enough to jump yet?

[jeep45238]

Call me crazy or naive but I can't envision a situation where I'm attempting to speed load a J to the extent that wads vs rounded is the difference between life or death. That's just me.

Not so much that for me, but the frank ability to do so. I've had my hands shake so much from adrenaline before that I've been unable to dial a phone number before.

If you're already that far outside of statistical norms, it would be pretty nice to also not have an empty gun.

[D-der]

Not so much that for me, but the frank ability to do so. I've had my hands shake so much from adrenaline before that I've been unable to dial a phone number before.

If you're already that far outside of statistical norms, it would be pretty nice to also not have an empty gun.

Good reason for a NY reload

[GJM]

Good reason for a NY reload

Question -- would rather try to reload Brenneke slugs in your shotgun against a bear, or reload your J frame against two attackers. Neither seem appealing.

[D-der]

Question -- would rather try to reload Brenneke slugs in your shotgun against a bear, or reload your J frame against two attackers. Neither seem appealing.

Pucker factor through the roof...
#1 45 Colt Hard Cast SW / Back Up
#2 another snub / Back UP
Better than nothing (Botched reload)

Fresh change of Fruit Of The Loom's

[Lost River]

Not so much that for me, but the frank ability to do so. I've had my hands shake so much from adrenaline before that I've been unable to dial a phone number before.

If you're already that far outside of statistical norms, it would be pretty nice to also not have an empty gun.

Funny you mention the hands shaking from adrenaline thing. I have had a few people mention/bring up in AARs about my focus during shooting/events whatever. I have had to tell a couple of them that what they are not seeing is that while during the event I can keep switched on, the funny thing is that an hour (or whatever) after it is over and things are settled down, that is when I get the hand shake thing going on, or even had sweating in one case. To the point that a couple times I have had to tell a couple guys that a written statement is going to have to wait, and I am taking a break for a bit, and go kick back and close my eyes and relax/decompress for a however long it takes.

It just hits people differently. You can turn it off for a while until the event is over, but eventually it is going to catch up to you.

[jeep45238]

Funny you mention the hands shaking from adrenaline thing. I have had a few people mention/bring up in AARs about my focus during shooting/events whatever. I have had to tell a couple of them that what they are not seeing is that while during the event I can keep switched on, the funny thing is that an hour (or whatever) after it is over and things are settled down, that is when I get the hand shake thing going on, or even had sweating in one case. To the point that a couple times I have had to tell a couple guys that a written statement is going to have to wait, and I am taking a break for a bit, and go kick back and close my eyes and relax/decompress for a however long it takes.

It just hits people differently. You can turn it off for a while until the event is over, but eventually it is going to catch up to you.

Yup. Ended a night with a hammer on the half cock notch when I was in my early 20's (DA/SA) walking back from the local corner store. 20 minutes later or so is when it sunk in for me (didn't own a cell at the time).

[jeep45238]

Good reason for a NY reload

Sometimes. Sometimes not.

I tend to focus more on the white swan events than the black swan events, as they are more common and can still impact your life.

You can always "what if" and "plus one" to a scenario where odds are stacked against you, but looking at what the world is presenting to you (rather than looking FOR something), being aware to oddities when they present themselves, not looking like food, being flexible enough to change a plan/goal, and having something on you tends to put enough layers up there to make the black swan events even less common.

[jeep45238]

Question -- would rather try to reload Brenneke slugs in your shotgun against a bear, or reload your J frame against two attackers. Neither seem appealing.

Much rather attempt a reload on a J given the choice between those two bad choices.

[TC215]

Hendrix's hand went to the snub-nosed Smith & Wesson.

Model 36, five-shot revolver he'd stashed in his back pocket while inside the store. Pulling it out, he adopted a Weaver stance and took aim at the suspect. For the benefit of all present, Hendrix loudly identified himself as a police officer.

….

Ripley stalked after him. Both men exchanged more rounds as they moved. Hendrix's third shot hit Ripley just as one of Ripley's rounds stuck him in his right lower leg, causing Hendrix to collapse onto his back as his fourth round went wide of Ripley, striking the store behind him.

Lying on the ground like some upended tortoise, Hendrix knew he had but one round left. From the outset, Ripley hadn't had to concern himself with conserving rounds, and was even still shooting at Hendrix. Desperate, Hendrix raised his gun once more at Ripley and fired his last round. It struck Ripley in his left leg, severing the femoral artery.

Still the man kept coming.


I always think of this story when people talk reloads and j-frames.


https://www.policemag.com/patrol/article/15348532/shots-fired-palm-desert-california-03301996

[Crazy Dane]

Funny you mention the hands shaking from adrenaline thing. I have had a few people mention/bring up in AARs about my focus during shooting/events whatever. I have had to tell a couple of them that what they are not seeing is that while during the event I can keep switched on, the funny thing is that an hour (or whatever) after it is over and things are settled down, that is when I get the hand shake thing going on, or even had sweating in one case. To the point that a couple times I have had to tell a couple guys that a written statement is going to have to wait, and I am taking a break for a bit, and go kick back and close my eyes and relax/decompress for a however long it takes.

It just hits people differently. You can turn it off for a while until the event is over, but eventually it is going to catch up to you.


It was at least an hour after my incident when I puked into an Idaho Falls Pd trash can. It was another 30 minutes until I was able to regain composure and continue with my statement.

[Totem Polar]

Funny you mention the hands shaking from adrenaline thing. I have had a few people mention/bring up in AARs about my focus during shooting/events whatever. I have had to tell a couple of them that what they are not seeing is that while during the event I can keep switched on, the funny thing is that an hour (or whatever) after it is over and things are settled down, that is when I get the hand shake thing going on, or even had sweating in one case. To the point that a couple times I have had to tell a couple guys that a written statement is going to have to wait, and I am taking a break for a bit, and go kick back and close my eyes and relax/decompress for a however long it takes.

It just hits people differently. You can turn it off for a while until the event is over, but eventually it is going to catch up to you.

https://medicine.yale.edu/news/yale-medicine-magazine/article/neuropeptides-presence-in-high-levels-suggests-soldiers-are/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10807963/

https://www.forcescience.com/2007/05/researchers-move-closer-to-explaining-high-performance/

[Lost River]

That is very interesting Totem.

Makes perfect sense and actually explains a lot of things.

[Totem Polar]

That is very interesting Totem.

Makes perfect sense and actually explains a lot of things.

I only know about this because I coach people (including myself) on how to perform music under considerable pressure. I came across an early article on NPY while researching psych of performance stuff. There’s most def a rabbit hole there, FWIW.

Of note is that the researchers could tell who was able to select into specialized units just by looking at their blood alone, with 96+ percent accuracy—and the exceptions tended to be people who failed out due to sustaining an injury in selection, or similar. Compelling stuff, IMO.

[breakingtime91]

Funny you mention the hands shaking from adrenaline thing. I have had a few people mention/bring up in AARs about my focus during shooting/events whatever. I have had to tell a couple of them that what they are not seeing is that while during the event I can keep switched on, the funny thing is that an hour (or whatever) after it is over and things are settled down, that is when I get the hand shake thing going on, or even had sweating in one case. To the point that a couple times I have had to tell a couple guys that a written statement is going to have to wait, and I am taking a break for a bit, and go kick back and close my eyes and relax/decompress for a however long it takes.

It just hits people differently. You can turn it off for a while until the event is over, but eventually it is going to catch up to you.

I never shook during, I have the shakes as soon as the situation deescalates. Doesn't seem to matter the duration of the event either, a 10 minute gun fight or a 24 hour battle I was in, the shakes came after.


Trying to do anything while those shakes are going would be... interesting.

[Noah]

I never shook during, I have the shakes as soon as the situation deescalates. Doesn't seem to matter the duration of the event either, a 10 minute gun fight or a 24 hour battle I was in, the shakes came after.


Trying to do anything while those shakes are going would be... interesting.

No gun fights or deployments, but I had the same experience with my vasectomy! :p

[Dave Williams]

I never shook during, I have the shakes as soon as the situation deescalates. Doesn't seem to matter the duration of the event either, a 10 minute gun fight or a 24 hour battle I was in, the shakes came after.


Trying to do anything while those shakes are going would be... interesting.


The target array at Rogers can induce shakes/condition orange. I was shaking very badly during a test, also partly due to self induced stress with my friends there, desire to do well. I just gripped really hard to overcome it.

[Paul Blackburn]

I always think of this story when people talk reloads and j-frames.


https://www.policemag.com/patrol/article/15348532/shots-fired-palm-desert-california-03301996

I think the worst mistake Hendrix made was announcing himself verbally rather than just maneuvering to gain a tactical advantage and let some well placed shots be the surprise announcement.

Definitely a good read though.

[WDR]

I always think of this story when people talk reloads and j-frames.


https://www.policemag.com/patrol/article/15348532/shots-fired-palm-desert-california-03301996

Reading the story again, I don't think he ever would have had a chance to reload his gun. But it certainly does drive home the idea that a J-frame isn't a "go looking for trouble" gun, and that capacity and availability of reloads can matter. Not that he had a choice (duty to act), besides carrying a bigger gun off duty that day. Hell of a way to learn that lesson. Sometimes you "run what you brung".

Realistically, most folks are not going to reload a J in the middle of a fight, shakes or no... but if you have to, you better have solid skills if you want to do it with any sort of speed.

[psalms144.1]

I never shook during, I have the shakes as soon as the situation deescalates. Doesn't seem to matter the duration of the event either, a 10 minute gun fight or a 24 hour battle I was in, the shakes came after.


Trying to do anything while those shakes are going would be... interesting.Concur with all of this. Never shook during the event, but I was largely useless after when the shakes set in...

[BillSWPA]

I always think of this story when people talk reloads and j-frames.


https://www.policemag.com/patrol/article/15348532/shots-fired-palm-desert-california-03301996

Glad he survived, was able to buy time for other police to arrive, and save the lives of both intended victims. Also glad he is able and willing to share the lessons with others.

Not wanting to be critical of someone who had the above successes at great personal cost, the first lesson is that his gun does not belong in his fiancée’s purse. I also agree with the above point that a warning was not called for in that situation.

This is the fourth incident I have read about in which 5 was not enough.

[breakingtime91]

Glad he survived, was able to buy time for other police to arrive, and save the lives of both intended victims. Also glad he is able and willing to share the lessons with others.

Not wanting to be critical of someone who had the above successes at great personal cost, the first lesson is that his gun does not belong in his fiancée’s purse. I also agree with the above point that a warning was not called for in that situation.

This is the fourth incident I have read about in which 5 was not enough.

Humans are really weird. Some people stop after one because it's a physically devastating shot or because physiologically they werent ready to be shot. Some people take a lot of bullets to put down. My mentor was a Ramadi and Fallujah veteran. He would tell us after actions of their experiences shooting guys over ten times and they would keep trying to fight and that's when they started using what is commonly referred to as anchor shots now.

People are weird. I carry a compact pistol (p2000) daily because I don't want to rely on luck.

[FrankB]

I generally don’t carry a J frame without another pistol. There is the story of police Sgt. Timothy Gramins.
https://www.police1.com/officer-shootings/articles/why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job-clGBbLYpnqqHxwMq/

“At the core of his desperate firefight was a murderous attacker who simply would not go down, even though he was shot 14 times with .45-cal. ammunition – six of those hits in supposedly fatal locations.”

Gramins carried 46 rounds of .45 acp, and was down to 4 rounds when the fight ended! Does this mean that we are just out of luck without 7 speedloaders on our person? I doubt it.


https://youtu.be/pdjcYjSsIok?si=4efBLpuRTrfySBwp

[Ed L]

I would be good with either but most comfortable with the big heavy 250s.

I have zero doubt that both would get complete penetration on a skull. Everywhere else is the question. I know that the 250s essentially duplicate the old .45 Colt load, and that was/is a load that has an incredibly long and established history of killing all manner of beasts from big bears to horses (and their riders) to buffalo (Bison). Pretty much anything that walked was taken by the .45 Colt and a heavy slug at moderate speeds.

I know I have killed a good amount of things with a 1911 and heavy slugs to include multiple elk.

The majority of people when they think .45 ACP, think a 230 grain at 750-800 fps. They have no idea about what it can really do when loaded to its potential.

I would love to see a separate thread addressing this topic: the lethality of 250 grain .44 Special and .45 rounds against larger North American Game. Some months ago I was with Wayne Dobbs and Bryan Eastridge and a similar topic came up--that a 240-255ish Keith style semi wadcutter fired from a .44 or .45 caliber gun travelling at about 950-1000 feet per second is capable of taking any animal in North America.

[jandbj]

I would love to see a separate thread addressing this topic: the lethality of 250 grain .44 Special and .45 rounds against larger North American Game. Some months ago I was with Wayne Dobbs and Bryan Eastridge and a similar topic came up--that a 240-255ish Keith style semi wadcutter fired from a .44 or .45 caliber gun travelling at about 950-1000 feet per second is capable of taking any animal in North America.

John Linebaugh (RIP) shared that opinion and proved it repeatedly. All one gains from his massive bore guns was more penetration and the ability to use larger and heavier slugs. Elmer Keith, Ross Seyfried, John Taffin and others as well have tried all the hot rods but 250 @1000 will kill anything that walks the continent with proper placement and bullet selection.

[Hambo]

I think the worst mistake Hendrix made was announcing himself verbally rather than just maneuvering to gain a tactical advantage and let some well placed shots be the surprise announcement.

Definitely a good read though.

Yeah, his problem was not the firearm. It was lack of understanding Tuco's Rule and case law on use of force.

[okie john]

I would love to see a separate thread addressing this topic: the lethality of 250 grain .44 Special and .45 rounds against larger North American Game. Some months ago I was with Wayne Dobbs and Bryan Eastridge and a similar topic came up--that a 240-255ish Keith style semi wadcutter fired from a .44 or .45 caliber gun travelling at about 950-1000 feet per second is capable of taking any animal in North America.

I posted in the other thread before I read this. I think we have to be careful not to confuse lethality and ability to incapacitate.


Okie John

[Lost River]

Friends,

Today I went out to do some more T&E on a .45 ACP 250 grain Poly Coat +P load I have been working on. Absolute Hammer!

It has been running like a sewing machine through the Gen 5 G21. I took along an S&W 4506, as well as an H&K USP to use those as test beds and get velocity numbers.

The G21 is the clear favorite just as far as shooting comfort and ease of making fast hit BTW, but that is for another thread.



https://i.imgur.com/1B4OW2eh.jpg

Anyways, while I was out, I ran 100 rounds through the Lipsey's 432UC.

I was shooting the same ammo as before. The 100 grain poly coat wadcutters.

Such a great little gun. Finally got the sights centered to when I want them.

At 10 yards I was putting them right above the green dot. It is clear these sights are oriented for closer range defense type shooting, which is perfect for thi style gun. My 50+ year old eyes are not doing the gun justice when it comes to the gun/ammo combo and true mechanical accuracy combination potential.

I fired my first 12 and knew I had the sights right where I needed them in terms of windage adjustment.

https://i.imgur.com/TLVh3ZKh.jpg

Then I fired the rest for a total of 30 rounds. This was offhand at 10 yards.

https://i.imgur.com/z1yqnqch.jpg

Next I backed off to 25 yards to see how I would do. This is where it was obvious that my eyes are struggling with the irons. I was having a hard time getting a crisp picture. This is really where red dot sights and even laser grips have a pretty notable advantage if the conditions are right for them.

It was obvious (to me) that the gun and ammo is capable of far better. I was definitely limiting the performance here. Normally with an RDO on a revolver and sandbagged it is pretty easy to shoot little groups, but I was struggling. I know this gun is capable of much better. It shoot well, but I know a person who can see those iron sights clearly like I did in my 20s would have shot a much tighter group.

https://i.imgur.com/db9bH6sh.jpg


More to follow...

[Lost River]

With 60 rounds down, and 40 to go, I brought it in closer.

I practiced between 3, 5 and 7 yards.

I sot both hands, strong and wrong hand only.

40 rounds into the head box.

https://i.imgur.com/n1FJTDxh.jpg

At such close range, the gun was extremely easy to shoot a ragged hole for the most part.

That brought me to 100 rounds.

I did note that the trigger has lightened up. I don't have a trigger gauge, but it feels lighter than when it started by at least a couple pounds. I was already smooth, and now is just a bit smoother. Simply a great action on the gun. Extremely hard not to like.

With 350 rounds through the gun, I would say it is starting to break in nicely.

On an interesting note.

When I was done shooting I noted how quite clean the gun was. If I had been shooting regular lead, there was no doubt, I would have had to of been breaking out the toothbrush and scrubbing on the gun. But the 432 is quite clean thanks to the poly coat projectiles. They are really hard to beat.

This is after 100 rounds.

https://i.imgur.com/l3QqBhBh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/MiRc8iYh.jpg


All for now.

[revchuck38]

It sure looks like it’s regulated for the 85-grain load. Is there a lighter wadcutter out there that might bring POI down a bit?

[CCT125US]

It sure looks like it’s regulated for the 85-grain load. Is there a lighter wadcutter out there that might bring POI down a bit?

Good observation.

Lost River are you using a cover hold?

[BN]

Lost River It looks like the rear sight is moved pretty far to the right to get centered hits. Is this consistent with the way you need to adjust sights for your other pistols? I know that different people see the sights differently. My wife and I can't use the same sight settings on iron sighted pistols.

[Lost River]

It is a little to the right, but nothing that I am concerned in the least about.

When I shoot a 6 o'clock hold it puts them right to the sights.

as is shown in the pic from the other day, prior to me doing the last fine tune on the windage:


https://i.imgur.com/grANYE0l.jpg

If I cover the target, it shoots just above the sights. Frankly I would not mess with anything at this point. :cool:

[Lost River]

Friends,

I went out yesterday and got in some more shooting. Had to test some more of the heavy .45 ACP +P 250 grain poly coat loads I have been working on, so I figured that it was a great opportunity to shoot the 432 as well.

There have been a couple people that I have read their posts out on the interwebs who wondered how it would perform at 50 yards. So I figured I would take this opportunity to give it a shot. I set up my bags across the tailgate of my old Land Cruiser. Then I walked the target out along with my laser rangefinder and set it at 50 yards.

Here were the results of the first 6 shots at 50 yards:

https://i.imgur.com/ug8YSRAh.jpg

I had used an old IDPA target that I shot on previously so I just stuck the big white paper over the holes. As you can see it hit pretty well centered, with one a bit higher up and one low and left. The one low and left immediately made me start questioning things. "Did I do that, is it a gun thing, such as one chamber slightly off?", etc. However, knowing how it had shot the previous 350 rounds I highly doubted it was a gun issue and like 99% of the time, it was likely shooter error.

For the ADD-ADHD crowd, I will skip ahead on this one. It was me. I suck.


So I pasted some dots over the holes and fired another 6 shots.

https://i.imgur.com/1nzqUFWh.jpg


5 out of 6 pretty darn close, and one a bit high. I will take that group. Overall I was dang happy so far.

Next I fired another 6, but before I get to that I will tell you about a conversation I had with someone a couple days ago. It had been mentioned that just slight changes in how a person grips a gun can have a pretty significant change in the point of impact of the projectiles. They were spot on, in that observation. As strange as this sounds, when I am shooting groups with a DA revolver, especially standing, I will often shoot the gun all double action. Most people find that to be odd. But the thing is that you can pick up most DA/SA revolvers and cock the hammer back and fire it, all while holding it in a variety of ways. It is substantially harder to do that in DA mode due to the long trigger reach. It forces you to hold the gun very consistently each time, with it perfectly in line with the bones in your forearm. When I shoot long range with my Smith revolvers, I do it almost exclusively DA.

Back to the shooting of the 432UC. I decided to grip the gun differently (choking up a bit higher) and removed the soft cushion that I had underneath my hands. As it ended up, the gun was bouncing a good bit more. The results were very telling. At 3-7 yards you may not be able to tell much. At 50 yards is was dramatically different.

I got a bit ahead of myself and taped the target before I took a pic. But the orange stickers are from where I had gripped the gun differently. The wind had picked up and a couple of my blue stickers had blown off.


https://i.imgur.com/s5faaGmh.jpg

You will note that there are only 5 orange stickers. I think I pasted one of the last six shot string with a blue dot. But regardless, you can see how just changing your grip, and not having a proper rest can cause a rather significant change, both in group size, but also in point of impact.

More to follow..

[Lost River]

Now that I knew I was on target and knew how to hold the gun to get the best results I fired and emptied the gun three different times before I walked down to the target. In spite of the fact that I struggled a little with keeping the front sight in focus, the Lipsey's 432UC really put the wadcutters right where they needed to be.

https://i.imgur.com/NjvoN6gh.jpg

This gun just puts them right in there. The sights are exceptional. For a gun that is intended to be used in the role this one was designed for, one could not ask for anything better.

As mentioned earlier, I have been working on a .45 ACP +P 250 grain Poly Coat load. I had the G21.5 that is topped with the CH Duty enclosed emitter RDO as well as 5" Colt and 4.25" Colt 1911s, and a 4506, as well as an HK USP. In between shooting those I fired the 432 at a few different targets. I did not quite get to 100 rounds. I fired a total of 80 rounds. Was trying for 100, so as to makes things simple an easy to track, but it just did not happen, as I had kids to pick up. You know, that life stuff that pops up.:cool:

So right now the round count sits at 430 rds.

Loving the gun and now I know that with the 100 grain poly coat wadcutters, I can shoot out to 50 yards and be on the money. :cool:

https://i.imgur.com/gsTNF9Dh.jpg

[Totem Polar]

Those results, with any J-frame, are pretty hard to argue with.

[GearFondler]

Those results, with any J-frame, are pretty hard to argue with.I couldn't do better with a Roland Special and I know most other people couldn't either ("other people" doesn't include the exceptional shooters we have in this group).

[Paul Blackburn]

It had been mentioned that just slight changes in how a person grips a gun can have a pretty significant change in the point of impact of the projectiles.

That may explain why I was shooting a bit high...

Not being familiar with these new stocks, I was holding the gun perhaps too high up on the back strap and it didn't quite feel natural.

Thanks for mentioning this!

[Half Moon]

That may explain why I was shooting a bit high...

Not being familiar with these new stocks, I was holding the gun perhaps too high up on the back strap and it didn't quite feel natural.

Thanks for mentioning this!

The small footprint of a J frame makes for a finicky platform. Small changes in grasp or grips can have large impacts on POI, grouping, etc. even as much as ammo selection. One of the advantages of the revolver though is the ability to put radically different grips on it to best fit your hands. If you can't get to a happy place with grasp on the grips that came with it, easy enough to change the grips to your grasp. Of course that's also how you end up with a box o' grips. Or so I've heard... 😀

[okie john]

For the ADD-ADHD crowd, I will skip ahead on this one. It was me. I suck.

Um, no. Not by the standards of mortal men.

You're laying them in there at 50 yards using a J-frame equipped with sights that don't lend themselves to precision at distance.


Okie John

[1Rangemaster]

^^^^What he said...
I'm pleased to get hits on a B/C silhouette at 50 yards with irons on a full size gun.

Exceptional shooting, Lost River, and certainly proof of the gun and load.

[Lost River]

Friends,

It has been a bit since I had a chance to get out and give the little Ultimate Carry .32 H&R J Frame a good workout, but finally I had the opportunity to do so again. This time I did some quick DA work at 7 yards. I have shot this gun from 3 yards out to 50 yards for both fun, and simply to find out what the gun and my capabilities were with it were. That said, really chances are more likely than not I would be using it in "get off me/stay away" ranges, so 7 yards seemed fitting to give it a good workout.

I started out putting 18 rounds into the first circle. BTW, the circles are 4" wide. I shot as quick as I could get a decent sight picture. As soon as the front sight found the white of the target I ran the DA trigger all the way though. Speaking of the trigger. If you have read the previous posts about shooting this great little pocket blaster, you may (or may not) note that I have 430 rounds through the gun. I have dry fired it a few times, but really not a lot. The trigger has lightened up some already. I have not done anything to it. In fact, I still have not even cleaned the dang gun since I have been shooting 100% poly coated ammo through it, and it is really quite clean all things considered. If I was shooting traditional hardcast lead, there is no way I would go this long between cleanings. Back to the trigger. It is getting better and better, and I have zero intentions of doing anything to it, other than continue to shoot it.

Back to shooting. I shot quite quickly. With the light recoil of the 100 grain wadcutters, it is pretty reasonably easy to shoot fairly well for a J Frame. After the initial group, in which I was really choking up on the gun (I have size XL hands so little guns can be challenging to find just the right grip on) I changed the way I was holding the gun and used only the pad of my first distal joint on my trigger finger to shoot the gun. The result was immediate. The point of impact was high and right for me.

https://i.imgur.com/xTPHPH1h.jpg


The group was good, as I actually had to slow down a bit to control the gun better, but it was obvious that I did not have as much control of the gun as I did when I put much more finger on the trigger. After shooting 18 rounds in that manner, I went back to using the center of my second distal joint and using a very high grip, as I have traditionally done with my .38 Special J Frame 442. It may look like my hands are "swallowing the gun to some, but it works.

I fire a couple more iterations of 18 rounds per circle for a total of 72 rounds on the target.

This put my round count at 502 rounds through the Lipsey's Ultimate Carry .32 H&R J Frame. All of the rounds used were the Lost River Ammo Company 100 grain poly coated wadcutter. I have been carrying this little gun every day now for a bit as my "always" gun, no matter what gun I may be carrying as a primary. Even when I am just working loading ammo, the little J Frame is snug in the front pocket, doing what it is supposed to do.

[BN]

The OCD in me wants to move your groups one click left. :)

How much trouble was it to adjust the sights from the tendency to shoot left you had when you first shot the gun? What tools did you use?

It looks like there is some slight vertical with your groups. I wonder how much more accurate your revolver would be with a flat top front sight.

[Lost River]

The rear sight in the dovetail on my particular sample is TIGHT. Really it is a dang fine example of production done right. The problem for me is that I don't really have the proper tools to do fine adjustments, so I am doing it the old redneck way, with a brass punch and a BFH (big freaking hammer). Ok, so maybe the hammer is really not that big and it is a gunsmith's hammer but I started with a pretty small hammer and light taps initially and got nowhere, and moved progressively up, until I finally ended up moving the sight too far with one of the strikes.

The lesson was very definitely "use proper tools" which I do not posses, but oddly enough, just a month or so ago I had been offered a universal sight tool, and I declined as I didn't think I would need it as much as others might and did not want to be greedy. I felt some other person might put it to more use. Stupid me.

I also have a habit of loaning out tools and losing track of them over time. In fact there is a set of .45 caliber chamber reaming/uniforming tools floating around Pistol Forum land that I remembered the other day. It has been at least 5 years since I loaned those out, LOL.

The other thing is that I have 50+ year old eyes and ever since I had Lasik surgery done, front sights are fuzzy, so I am never going to do this gun the justice it deserves in terms of showing its true mechanical accuracy. I have proven that time and again shooting an RDO equipped gun next to an iron sighted one with the same load, such as with .45 Colts or .44 Specials. The group size difference is notable.

I may eventually put some Crimson Trace grips on this gun, but the thing is that I REALLY like the grips as issued. They are extremely well thought out and designed. There is no question that a lot of time and thought went into them. It is fortuitous for me as they are extremely close in size and shape to the grips I built up for my 442 J Frame that I have carried for so long. It makes me reluctant to want to swap them out at the moment, even though I do recognize that the CT grips have long been advantageous (for me) in some lighting conditions when it comes to shooting precisely.

Frankly though while I always think it is high priority to shoot precisely, with the little guns of this nature, precise shooting becomes even more important. It is one of the reasons I practiced so much with my old 442.

Here you can see how the grips are pretty similar.

https://i.imgur.com/YctNYJch.jpg

[jeep45238]

I may eventually put some Crimson Trace grips on this gun, but the thing is that I REALLY like the grips as issued. They are extremely well thought out and designed. There is no question that a lot of time and thought went into them. It is fortuitous for me as they are extremely close in size and shape to the grips I built up for my 442 J Frame that I have carried for so long. It makes me reluctant to want to swap them out at the moment, even though I do recognize that the CT grips have long been advantageous (for me) in some lighting conditions when it comes to shooting precisely.

Frankly though while I always think it is high priority to shoot precisely, with the little guns of this nature, precise shooting becomes even more important. It is one of the reasons I practiced so much with my old 442.

Here you can see how the grips are pretty similar.

https://i.imgur.com/YctNYJch.jpg


I'm seeing that our preferred performance profile of grips are pretty similar. Thank you for your involvement with the project, and the updates from your end.

[45dotACP]

Yeah, the 432's grip is awesome and I love it. I was thinking about getting rid of my 638 and putting the laser grips on the 432...but I think I'll leave the .32's grips as is because they're possibly the best J frame grip I've ever tried.

[JCS]

Please forgive my ignorance with this question, but will this ammo work in the 432? It’s the only ammo I could find in town. It’s 32 h&r mag but when I got home it says not for use in h&r revolvers. It should be good in the Lipsey 432 right?

I plan on getting some of the lost river wadcutters but this is my only option for now.

118967

[Up1911Fan]

Please forgive my ignorance with this question, but will this ammo work in the 432? It’s the only ammo I could find in town. It’s 32 h&r mag but when I got home it says not for use in h&r revolvers. It should be good in the Lipsey 432 right?

I plan on getting some of the lost river wadcutters but this is my only option for now.

118967

Yes.

[Dov]

Please forgive my ignorance with this question, but will this ammo work in the 432? It’s the only ammo I could find in town. It’s 32 h&r mag but when I got home it says not for use in h&r revolvers. It should be good in the Lipsey 432 right?

I plan on getting some of the lost river wadcutters but this is my only option for now.

118967

H&R Brand revolvers is what they are referring to the 432 is S&W brand.

As your probably aware much of Buffalo Bore is loaded hotter than typical mainstream factory ammo, so recoil with those loads in light gun might be more brisk.

[Dov]

The rear sight in the dovetail on my particular sample is TIGHT. Really it is a dang fine example of production done right. The problem for me is that I don't really have the proper tools to do fine adjustments, so I am doing it the old redneck way, with a brass punch and a BFH (big freaking hammer). Ok, so maybe the hammer is really not that big and it is a gunsmith's hammer but I started with a pretty small hammer and light taps initially and got nowhere, and moved progressively up, until I finally ended up moving the sight too far with one of the strikes.

The lesson was very definitely "use proper tools" which I do not posses, but oddly enough, just a month or so ago I had been offered a universal sight tool, and I declined as I didn't think I would need it as much as others might and did not want to be greedy. I felt some other person might put it to more use. Stupid me.

I also have a habit of loaning out tools and losing track of them over time. In fact there is a set of .45 caliber chamber reaming/uniforming tools floating around Pistol Forum land that I remembered the other day. It has been at least 5 years since I loaned those out, LOL.

The other thing is that I have 50+ year old eyes and ever since I had Lasik surgery done, front sights are fuzzy, so I am never going to do this gun the justice it deserves in terms of showing its true mechanical accuracy. I have proven that time and again shooting an RDO equipped gun next to an iron sighted one with the same load, such as with .45 Colts or .44 Specials. The group size difference is notable.

I may eventually put some Crimson Trace grips on this gun, but the thing is that I REALLY like the grips as issued. They are extremely well thought out and designed. There is no question that a lot of time and thought went into them. It is fortuitous for me as they are extremely close in size and shape to the grips I built up for my 442 J Frame that I have carried for so long. It makes me reluctant to want to swap them out at the moment, even though I do recognize that the CT grips have long been advantageous (for me) in some lighting conditions when it comes to shooting precisely.

Frankly though while I always think it is high priority to shoot precisely, with the little guns of this nature, precise shooting becomes even more important. It is one of the reasons I practiced so much with my old 442.

Here you can see how the grips are pretty similar.

https://i.imgur.com/YctNYJch.jpg

I've wanted for some time for some good revolver grip company to offer addition of laser sight to wood/laminate grips. Inlet metal fixture if needed might not be as precise as factory designed for laser from ground up grip. But would allow for better hand fit with benefit of laser sight for pocket gun or other snubby.

[358156hp]

H&R Brand revolvers is what they are referring to the 432 is S&W brand.

As your probably aware much of Buffalo Bore is loaded hotter than typical mainstream factory ammo, so recoil with those loads in light gun might be more brisk.

I had one of the early H&R 32 magnum guns and the original Federal loads were almost too hot for it. I think it was simply a rechambered 32 S&W long model with no other modifications. S&W has made 32 H&Rs before, and I feel that BB would have taken them into consideration if they were lacking in strength. So I would have no concerns about using Buffalo Bore in the new 432 UCs either.

[Wood]

I had one of the early H&R 32 magnum guns and the original Federal loads were almost too hot for it. I think it was simply a rechambered 32 S&W long model with no other modifications. S&W has made 32 H&Rs before, and I feel that BB would have taken them into consideration if they were lacking in strength. So I would have no concerns about using Buffalo Bore in the new 432 UCs either.

(this post is mostly addressed to JCS )I believe buffalo bore states on their website's .32 H&R pages that their .32 H&R loads are NOT safe to fire in Harrington and Richardson revolvers but ARE safe for any literally any other .32 H&R (or .327 obviously) chambered gun in good, safe-to-fire condition. Just to make it perfectly clear.

[Wood]

In confirming the language from BB regarding the +P H&R mag ammunition they've offered for a quite a while now, I discovered this new offering on their home page:

BUFFALO BORE NOW OFFERING A 100gr WADCUTTER *STANDARD PRESSURE .32 H&R MAGNUM ROUND (https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=655)


100 gr. Hard Cast @ (900 fps - 2" or 1050 fps - 6"/ME 222 ft-lbs)


Friends, this load is a collaboration of Jeff Hoover, Jason Cloessner at Lipsey’s, and myself, strictly as an anti-personnel load for their new “Ultimate Carry” six-shot J Frame chambered for 32 H&R.


The folks at Lipseys noticed that when firing our 32 S&W Long cartridge (Same cartridge as Colt 32 New Police) out of these 32 H&R Ultimate Carry revolvers, not only did that little 100 gr. HARD CAST wadcutter give great accuracy; it does what hard wad cutters do, and that is smash their way through flesh and bone, doing far more damage than round-nosed bullets. This forward smashing of living tissue also creates straight and, therefore, deep penetration. With the 32 S&W Long load featuring this bullet, they were getting about 830 fps from the two-inch revolvers.

Enter Buffalo Bore; I was asked to use the very same 100 gr. hard cast bullet, but load it into 32 H&R brass with a two-inch muzzle velocity of 900 fps.

It's worthwhile to click through on that link; if you've not been to the BB website before, he likes to editorialize on his individual product pages and this one in particular's an all-timer. In exulting the UC revolver he also takes the earliest possible opportunity to rail against the Hilary Hole.

38.32usd for a 20 round box as of the time of posting which uhhhhhh

Still, one of the early examples of a big name in the business bringing a new .32 cartridge to market as a direct result of the UC

[Paul Blackburn]

In confirming the language from BB regarding the +P H&R mag ammunition they've offered for a quite a while now, I discovered this new offering on their home page:

BUFFALO BORE NOW OFFERING A 100gr WADCUTTER *STANDARD PRESSURE .32 H&R MAGNUM ROUND (https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=655)







It's worthwhile to click through on that link; if you've not been to the BB website before, he likes to editorialize on his individual product pages and this one in particular's an all-timer. In exulting the UC revolver he also takes the earliest possible opportunity to rail against the Hilary Hole.

38.32usd for a 20 round box as of the time of posting which uhhhhhh

Still, one of the early examples of a big name in the business bringing a new .32 cartridge to market as a direct result of the UC

Are the BB offerings coated?

[Wood]

Are the BB offerings coated?

Not the full coat, like Underwood or LR wadcutters. From their .32 S&W Long WC's page, which has the very same bullet:


We alloy and lube these bullets properly so they will NOT substantially lead foul any normal barrel.

[jh9]

118967

FWIW American Rifleman (https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/the-underappreciated-32-magnums/) got 1,148fps out of a 432 with that load. Contrast the .327 magnum 100gr gold dot out of an LCR at 1,276fps. I think the 100gr gold dot was supposed to be toned down a bit from the 115? Not entirely sure, and I think they're both discontinued anyway. But that's ~120fps difference. So you're probably giving up a lot of the benefit of a .32 there. I would expect the recoil out of an aluminum gun to be somewhat unpleasant.

[jh9]

if you've not been to the BB website before, he likes to editorialize on his individual product pages and this one in particular's an all-

Yeah, the .380 standard pressure JHP product listing recommends a JHP in the chamber and ball in the magazine. At least he didn't suggest alternating / candy caning. :rolleyes:

The first and last time I bought BB ammo was some .357s that had images with speer gold dots (bonded) but shipped with some cup-and-core generic bullet. I think later on they added some "bullet may vary" verbiage to the website. Substituting the bullet seems to be an odd thing to do when you're selling ammunition. If you bought a case of HST from sgammo and they shipped you some HiShoks you'd probably call them up and ask what's going on.

The solid copper Barnes and cast bullets are probably safe, but their regular JHP can be a crapshoot. And since the major difference between the 85gr JHPs used by Black Hills and Federal is one of them actually expands through heavy clothing and one of them doesn't I would rather know which one I'm getting.

[Jamie]

Are the BB offerings coated?

I don't have any of the .32 H&R mag loads being talked about, but I do have some 100 gr .32 Long WC from Buffalo Bore.

I chronoed them out of my 327 LCR about 6 months ago. They are not coated as mentioned. Very slight leading was noted...very minimal (but I am switching to all coated bullets as I replaced my reloading stock FWIW).
The 100 gr .32 S&W long BB ran 797 Avg FPS out of my LCR .327. They list 900 FPS on the box, but I don't recall what gun they used.

In the tradition of relevant thread drift for P-F my shooting buddy (an avid collector with much deeper pockets than I) brought out a recently acquired 4 inch 631 J frame in .32 H&R mag along with a box of (probably) 20 year old Georgia Arms .32 H&R mag semi-jacketed hollowpoints that list 1100 fps on the label.
The 631 looked brand new. Minimal turn lines and very tight overall. NICE! :)
Awesome little gun, good trigger and sights. Those Georgia Arms rounds were a bit "spicy", akin to a P+ 130 gr .38 spl imho. But very subjective I agree.

For the time being I'll stick with Lost River's .32 H&R mag for carry and my handloads that mimic them for practice.

[JCS]

H&R Brand revolvers is what they are referring to the 432 is S&W brand.

As your probably aware much of Buffalo Bore is loaded hotter than typical mainstream factory ammo, so recoil with those loads in light gun might be more brisk.

I can confirm it’s pretty spicy. Not painful but also not fun to shoot.

But it did group sub 4” at 15 yards when I did my part.