What's your .357 Magnum Carry Ammo?

[Ghost Dog]

Yes, plagiarized because the other thread is both fun and informative.
What's in your cylinder?

.357 is even more interesting because to me you can put them in 3+1 catagories
Wheelies less than 21oz
Wheelies less than 30oz
Wheelies more than 30oz

+What goes in the cylinder for just woods/animal defense purposes if you do that? Or if you are in and around town and need to worry about both do you select something that would work fairly well on both?


1. None of my Magnums actually get Magnums anymore
2. Mid recoil 125 gr Golden Saber
3. Mid Recoil 125 gr Critical Defense
4. Full Power 125 gr SJHP

5. 135 gr Critical Duty
6. 145 gr Silvertip
7. 158 gr SJHP
8. 158 gr Hydrashok (or Gold Dot I should have added)
9. New Kid on the Block 154 gr HST
10. Something Heavier, Soft Point, or Hardcast for Woods/Animal Defense!

[Crazy Dane]

Since most of my threats run on 4 legs, 158 SJSP or 170 SWC loaded in .38 cases to .38-44 velocities. A 2 legged varmint isn't gonna notice that I'm not using a "defensive" round.

[Half Moon]

HSM 180 grain Lead RNFP Hard Cast Gas Check Bear Load. Because you gain 1 x D10 damage points for every word in the name 😜

Well that and I'm looking for woods carry penetration, the recoil impulse is less sharp than a lot of lighter .357, and it groups well in most of my .357's.

[BobM]

I almost never carry a full sized revolver anymore but my 5” GP100 is loaded with 145 Silvertips. My SP101 is loaded with CorBon 110 grain loads.

[Totem Polar]

I note the conspicuous absence of the speer 135 gr reduced recoil load.

All my .357 needs can be met by:
Speer 135 gr GDHP
Golden Sabre 125 in the same power range
Silvertip 145

And hardcast 180 gr semi wadcutter.

If we add lever actions to this, then 158 gr SJHP too.

[jtcarm]

145 grain STHP.

Woods carry is a stiff charge of 4227 under the 158-grain SJHP.

The silver tips would likely fill this role too. But they’re too expensive to practice with.

BTW, “What’s In Your Cylinder” is copyrighted. You’ll be hearing from my cousi…I mean…lawyer.

[Ghost Dog]

145 grain STHP.

Woods carry is a stiff charge of 4227 under the 158-grain SJHP.

The silver tips would likely fill this role too. But they’re too expensive to practice with.

BTW, “What’s In Your Cylinder” is copyrighted. You’ll be hearing from my cousi…I mean…lawyer.

Thank you for your understanding, I hope you don't mind me jumping on this figuring out how to run a Poll.
While the Silvertips would take care of a large dog/cayote/mountain lion, If I was Moose/Bear type country 154 would be the lowest weight I would go though I am certainly not an expert regarding animal defense. Even cheaper 158 sjhps seem to do rather well as far as deep penetration with mild expansion. The HST looks like it would be a good in and around towns in the NW type of load to do everything.

And, .357 carbines certainly become interesting...where they optimize velocity about 18" so a 16" is pretty close to 20" velocity I believe...158 sjhp or harder jhps...gold dots/xtps/critical duty I am sure all would perform well. I wasn't even thinking the Carbine Category. Has anyone done any Jug testing w/357 carbines? Anything learned there? I have watched a few videos on the subject. Does anyone use a .357 Lever for HD or have it for your wife/kids to use? A 16" is short/handy and lightweight. 20" still pretty much so and a couple more rounds.

And yes, I am sorry for forgetting about the low recoil 135 gr gold dot (suppose the Mild 357s Gold Dot/Golden Saber/Critical Defense could be grouped together), and the 158 Gold Dot could probably be grouped with the 158 HS or other JHPs.

[PNWTO]

AE 158 JSP

Mostly because I still have the better part of a case left and I don’t shoot or carry magnums very often. But the AE shoots well and I have little doubt it’s up to the task if I contribute to everything else.

So probably a lousy addition to the poll.

[Ghost Dog]

AE 158 JSP

Mostly because I still have the better part of a case left and I don’t shoot or carry magnums very often. But the AE shoots well and I have little doubt it’s up to the task if I contribute to everything else.

So probably a lousy addition to the poll.

Cheers, I added JSP to the bottom part w the Heavier, Soft Point, or Hardcast for Woods/Animal Defense in the main post but don't know how to add it to the poll part.


For myself...
In the under 21 oz category so say 605 or 640 I'd use one of the the three lower recoiling Mid recoiling .357 loads. In any of the really light J-frames I'd use .38+p instead.

In the under 30oz category for biped defense anything 125-145 sjhp/jhp.

I don't really have to worry about woods/animal defense but if I did, I'd use a larger 34-38 oz kind of Revolver, if it was in and around cities I'd use either the HST or a 158 sjhp.

IF, If I was one of the really out there in Bear/Moose country I'd want heavier 170/180 which I believe do damn good? Perhaps better than .44 mag? Though, I wonder if the 10mm/.41 Mag would actually be ideal diameter with the right loads for such purpose which I believe would be the actual case.

[rathos]

Since most of my .357 are k frames I have been carrying the High Desert Cartridge .357 158 grain XTP. It is loaded more like a .38 but no carbon ring left in the cylinder. The only .357 I carry a full magnum cartridge in is my GP-100 and that is the barnes copper 125 grain load. Recoil isn't horrible and it hits POA/POI at 25 yards in my GP100.

[Ghost Dog]

Since most of my .357 are k frames I have been carrying the High Desert Cartridge .357 158 grain XTP. It is loaded more like a .38 but no carbon ring left in the cylinder. The only .357 I carry a full magnum cartridge in is my GP-100 and that is the barnes copper 125 grain load. Recoil isn't horrible and it hits POA/POI at 25 yards in my GP100.

I should have thought out the Poll better and not sure if can change that part. I'd lump all 158 JHPs together with the HS/Gold Dot/XTP etc.

The Barnes I guess would go in full power 125 gr w the sjhp? Is that mid or full power recoil wise? I know the 140 is stout.


For say, Deer purposes from a 4" do you get mild expansion with 158 XTP's? But much Better in a Carbine?

[rathos]

The barnes if full power. It was actually slightly uncomfortable to shoot in my python (which was surprising) but the GP-100 is just really good at handling recoil. All of my k-frames are short barrel (3 or shorter) so I am not sure what the expansion would be. Not sure what it would do out of a carbine, it is a pretty mild load. The main reason I carry it is because it hits to the same POA/POI as the target TMJ load and it adds years to the life of the gun as it is very mild and extremely accurate.


I should have thought out the Poll better and not sure if can change that part. I'd lump all 158 JHPs together with the HS/Gold Dot/XTP etc.

The Barnes I guess would go in full power 125 gr w the sjhp? Is that mid or full power recoil wise? I know the 140 is stout.


For say, Deer purposes from a 4" do you get mild expansion with 158 XTP's? But much Better in a Carbine?

[SCCY Marshal]

Magtech 158 grain SJHP, code 357B. Quoting myself from a while back:


...some shadetree testing. Line of gallon milk jugs, the first covered with four layers of hoodie...

Using my 4" S&W model 28 - from which this load has previously averaged a velocity of 1,240fps - the bullet penetrated six jugs, not denting the back of the sixth. I was briefly confused. The recovered bullet barely tried expanding and resembled a mildly flared wadcutter. At the hot velocity of this load, that should have seen it pass clear through all seven jugs. A friend had gotten to the array before me and mixed some up but I discovered a perfect ring of lead in jug number four or five. The exposed lead had fully expanded, tried to peel a couple jacket skives open, and ultimately shed off. The full expansion through that much of the bullet path makes the penetration more sensible.

I also have some substitute standard Remington 125 grain SJPH.

[jtcarm]

Thank you for your understanding, I hope you don't mind me jumping on this figuring out how to run a Poll.
While the Silvertips would take care of a large dog/cayote/mountain lion, If I was Moose/Bear type country 154 would be the lowest weight I would go though I am certainly not an expert regarding animal defense. Even cheaper 158 sjhps seem to do rather well as far as deep penetration with mild expansion. The HST looks like it would be a good in and around towns in the NW type of load to do everything.

And, .357 carbines certainly become interesting...where they optimize velocity about 18" so a 16" is pretty close to 20" velocity I believe...158 sjhp or harder jhps...gold dots/xtps/critical duty I am sure all would perform well. I wasn't even thinking the Carbine Category. Has anyone done any Jug testing w/357 carbines? Anything learned there? I have watched a few videos on the subject. Does anyone use a .357 Lever for HD or have it for your wife/kids to use? A 16" is short/handy and lightweight. 20" still pretty much so and a couple more rounds.

And yes, I am sorry for forgetting about the low recoil 135 gr gold dot (suppose the Mild 357s Gold Dot/Golden Saber/Critical Defense could be grouped together), and the 158 Gold Dot could probably be grouped with the 158 HS or other JHPs.

In bear/moose country, I’d be packing something bigger. Probably a long gun.
In the brushy flatlands I roam, hogs & two legged critters are about the only threats. Of course there’s charging rocks, tree stumps & prickly pears that have to be put down.

[Ghost Dog]

Further thought point...

Do any on here actually live anywhere go out deep woods hunting/hiking anywhere that a 158 gr whatever wouldn't likely be good enough for animal defense? Or where a 170/180 .357 or typical .40/10mm FMJ-FP wouldn't actually be good enough (or Flat Point/Hard Cast 9/45 for that matter)?

Just an interesting side point, and genuinely curious if more than that is ever really needed (wouldn't .41 Mag actually be ideal, not 44/454/460/480/500 etc), and if so where?

Just saying .357 has a lot of diversity, from .38 WC to Mid 125/135 magnums in lighter guns, 125-145 full power for full size fighting revolvers, 158 covers just about anything, and can go heavier 170/180 for woods/animal defense if needed.

[Crazy Dane]

Further thought point...

Do any on here actually live anywhere go out deep woods hunting/hiking anywhere that a 158 gr whatever wouldn't likely be good enough for animal defense? Or where a 170/180 .357 or typical .40/10mm FMJ-FP wouldn't actually be good enough (or Flat Point/Hard Cast 9/45 for that matter)?

Just an interesting side point, and genuinely curious if more than that is ever really needed (wouldn't .41 Mag actually be ideal, not 44/454/460/480/500 etc), and if so where?

Just saying .357 has a lot of diversity, from .38 WC to Mid 125/135 magnums in lighter guns, 125-145 full power for full size fighting revolvers, 158 covers just about anything, and can go heavier 170/180 for woods/animal defense if needed.


I have had coyotes and black bear in my yard and I frequent the woods where feral hogs roam. The likely hood of having to deal with a bear is low but not zero. Coyotes are invasive to WNC and need to be put down like the vermin they are and can be handled with firearm that I may have on me. The feral hogs are also invasive and while I cannot find any documented encounters, there are word of mouth stories about bout be chased by them. My brothers' cousin's sister's boyfriend had to climb a tree to get away from one type of stories. Because NC wildlife agency lists the hogs as invasive, there is no closed hunting season and therefor I consider them to be a target of opportunity. I got close a few weeks ago, I heard them down on a creek but the wind was wrong and they smelled me before I got eyes on them, maybe next time.

My around the house SP101 and Python gets Federal 158 SJSP. I carry the 170g SWC .38-44 load, in my 3 inch GP100 (this is my woods .357 gun) because accuracy is phenomenal and who doesn't want a 170 grain bullet at 1200 FPS... If I am willfully venturing into hog territory I will up size caliber and carry my 3 inch .44 Special GP100 with a hard cast 255g SWC at 1000 FPS. I do have a S&W M29 Mountain gun now that is starting to take the place of the GP, same bullet just a little faster..

[Ghost Dog]

Thanks for thr info.

Ok excuse my ignorance on these matters
But from a .357 Carbine for hog Eradication or for Hunting Deer would a 158 JSP or XTP suffice? What would be ideal?

(Regarding .44 special I think it's a great handloader round, & w Punch even from the short barrels looks pretty ideal for Defense and quite too-however I don' treload)

[Crazy Dane]

Thanks for thr info.

Ok excuse my ignorance on these matters
But from a .357 Carbine for hog Eradication or for Hunting Deer would a 158 JSP or XTP suffice? What would be ideal?

(Regarding .44 special I think it's a great handloader round, & w Punch even from the short barrels looks pretty ideal for Defense and quite too-however I don' treload)


I do not have a .357 rifle yet, so I don't have experience there. However, I do have experience with a .44 mag rifle and have been doing a lot of research ISO a better hunting bullet for a .44 mag rifle (pistol-forum.com) (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?59803-ISO-a-better-hunting-bullet-for-a-44-mag-rifle) I think what I am learning about the .44 will translate very well to the .357.

There will be others along that do have great knowledge.

[Ghost Dog]

I do not have a .357 rifle yet, so I don't have experience there. However, I do have experience with a .44 mag rifle and have been doing a lot of research ISO a better hunting bullet for a .44 mag rifle (pistol-forum.com) (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?59803-ISO-a-better-hunting-bullet-for-a-44-mag-rifle) I think what I am learning about the .44 will translate very well to the .357.

There will be others along that do have great knowledge.
Thanks, and I read over your thread. I am not a hunter, but would like a general idea of what is passable, what is ideal, and what would work in a pinch. Plus it helps me justify a future purchase which is why we are all on these forums anyways right? I'm not sure what kind of arc and drop .357 has from a levergun but I'd imaging that 100 yard shots are doable if you know your load approximately. Honestly don't know if JSP's are useful like on deer at 357 mag velocities, or if it dumps too much lead like you were worried about. I'm guessing they would do in a pinch, but maybe 158 xtps better but that's just a guess. I'd bet 125 xtps would likely hold well enough together on a deer or man as well.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Since most of my .357 are k frames I have been carrying the High Desert Cartridge .357 158 grain XTP. It is loaded more like a .38 but no carbon ring left in the cylinder.

I have some of this ammo in for testing in my SP-101, but haven't hit the range yet.

[WDR]

I have a small stash of the 135gr .357 Gold Dot, that sometimes gets carried, but most of the time I'm carrying 158gr XTP handloads that are mid + range .357 velocity (13.5gr of 2400). The .357's get far more woods/desert use than in town, hence the XTP being #1 for me.

I have not seen the .357 Gold Dot load available for several years now. Which is unfortunate, as I think its a good "carry" .357 load that isn't nuke level hot, and thus more useful for that application.

[Malamute]

For say, Deer purposes from a 4" do you get mild expansion with 158 XTP's? But much Better in a Carbine?

In general full power 357 loads gain around 500 fps in carbines over a 4" pistol. Thats substantial as regards expansion and bullet integrity with those intended to expand.


...Do any on here actually live anywhere go out deep woods hunting/hiking anywhere that a 158 gr whatever wouldn't likely be good enough for animal defense? Or where a 170/180 .357 or typical .40/10mm FMJ-FP wouldn't actually be good enough (or Flat Point/Hard Cast 9/45 for that matter)?

Just an interesting side point, and genuinely curious if more than that is ever really needed (wouldn't .41 Mag actually be ideal, not 44/454/460/480/500 etc), and if so where?

Just saying .357 has a lot of diversity, from .38 WC to Mid 125/135 magnums in lighter guns, 125-145 full power for full size fighting revolvers, 158 covers just about anything, and can go heavier 170/180 for woods/animal defense if needed.

I do. Grizzlies live within 3-4 miles as a regular thing, as seen on game cams of someone I know. They occasionally come down where I live, though its not all that common, the main point being how long would it take a bear to amble 3 or 4 miles? I step outside in the dark regularly and do dusk skunk patrols. The 357 with 158 gr loads is probably up to the job, though if I go intentionally where the bears hang out i take a 44 mag or 45 Colt with heavier loads, and in the past some sort of rifle in 348, 45-70 with heavy loads, or sometimes a bolt gun. I keep both 158 sjhp and some of the old Winchester Lubaloy 158 SWC loads, I wish I had more of them. I need to get my moulds out and cast and load some general purpose full power cast loads


Thanks for thr info.

Ok excuse my ignorance on these matters
But from a .357 Carbine for hog Eradication or for Hunting Deer would a 158 JSP or XTP suffice?What would be ideal?

(Regarding .44 special I think it's a great handloader round, & w Punch even from the short barrels looks pretty ideal for Defense and quite too-however I don' treload)

I think 357 in a carbine on ferral hogs is a bit light but with solids IE cast SWC loads is probably ok. id prefer something larger/heavier, but my tolerance for much more is waning over time.


I do not have a .357 rifle yet, so I don't have experience there. However, I do have experience with a .44 mag rifle and have been doing a lot of research ISO a better hunting bullet for a .44 mag rifle (pistol-forum.com) (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?59803-ISO-a-better-hunting-bullet-for-a-44-mag-rifle) I think what I am learning about the .44 will translate very well to the .357.

There will be others along that do have great knowledge.

There is some difference between 357 and 44 in carbines, part of the 357s effectiveness is expanding bullets, which also tend to reduce penetration. The balance pint for intended use is the point we like to find. I think the 44 probably is more flexible with medium loads as far as what you can do with it, but if larger animals isnt the objective the 357 is pretty good.


Thanks, and I read over your thread. I am not a hunter, but would like a general idea of what is passable, what is ideal, and what would work in a pinch. Plus it helps me justify a future purchase which is why we are all on these forums anyways right? I'm not sure what kind of arc and drop .357 has from a levergun but I'd imaging that 100 yard shots are doable if you know your load approximately. Honestly don't know if JSP's are useful like on deer at 357 mag velocities, or if it dumps too much lead like you were worried about. I'm guessing they would do in a pinch, but maybe 158 xtps better but that's just a guess. I'd bet 125 xtps would likely hold well enough together on a deer or man as well.

I think full power 125 gr loads in 357 carbines is hard on bullet integrity in general, some loads look like they are running at around 2000 fps in carbines. The 158 sjhp arent giving up anything to them in effectiveness with the benefit of more penetration in either pistol or carbine. Im generally convinced they (125s) really dont have much if any advantage in 4" pistols at the cost of penetration. All indications are that even in 2 1/2" barrels the 158 sjhp still expand reliably, so thats what I carry for general use in the short gun or a 4" one and still useful in the carbine. So far recoil hasnt been problematic for me, so im only considering full power loads. Lighter loads work fine for small stuff and fun shooting. 38 Short Colts are nice for yard varmints like skunks without much noise. If i bump into a bear when out looking for skunks in the yard I may regret my choices, but the larger stuff is getting heavy and not as much fun to shoot.

I havent shot the carbine at distance yet, though 357 loads in a 4" pistol are pretty easy to hit the 300 yard plate with. 150 yards with a carbine is not out of the question for hunting activities if one can hit things well enough with it. We tend to do some goofy things with pistols out where theres not much else to do, though being able to hit a plate at some stupid distance isnt exactly the same as a clean shot on game.

[Ghost Dog]

In general full power 357 loads gain around 500 fps in carbines over a 4" pistol. Thats substantial as regards expansion and bullet integrity with those intended to expand.



I do. Grizzlies live within 3-4 miles as a regular thing, as seen on game cams of someone I know. They occasionally come down where I live, though its not all that common, the main point being how long would it take a bear to amble 3 or 4 miles? I step outside in the dark regularly and do dusk skunk patrols. The 357 with 158 gr loads is probably up to the job, though if I go intentionally where the bears hang out i take a 44 mag or 45 Colt with heavier loads, and in the past some sort of rifle in 348, 45-70 with heavy loads, or sometimes a bolt gun. I keep both 158 sjhp and some of the old Winchester Lubaloy 158 SWC loads, I wish I had more of them. I need to get my moulds out and cast and load some general purpose full power cast loads



I think 357 in a carbine on ferral hogs is a bit light but with solids IE cast SWC loads is probably ok. id prefer something larger/heavier, but my tolerance for much more is waning over time.



There is some difference between 357 and 44 in carbines, part of the 357s effectiveness is expanding bullets, which also tend to reduce penetration. The balance pint for intended use is the point we like to find. I think the 44 probably is more flexible with medium loads as far as what you can do with it, but if larger animals isnt the objective the 357 is pretty good.



I think full power 125 gr loads in 357 carbines is hard on bullet integrity in general, some loads look like they are running at around 2000 fps in carbines. The 158 sjhp arent giving up anything to them in effectiveness with the benefit of more penetration in either pistol or carbine. Im generally convinced they (125s) really dont have much if any advantage in 4" pistols at the cost of penetration. All indications are that even in 2 1/2" barrels the 158 sjhp still expand reliably, so thats what I carry for general use in the short gun or a 4" one and still useful in the carbine. So far recoil hasnt been problematic for me, so im only considering full power loads. Lighter loads work fine for small stuff and fun shooting. 38 Short Colts are nice for yard varmints like skunks without much noise. If i bump into a bear when out looking for skunks in the yard I may regret my choices, but the larger stuff is getting heavy and not as much fun to shoot.

I havent shot the carbine at distance yet, though 357 loads in a 4" pistol are pretty easy to hit the 300 yard plate with. 150 yards with a carbine is not out of the question for hunting activities if one can hit things well enough with it. We tend to do some goofy things with pistols out where theres not much else to do, though being able to hit a plate at some stupid distance isnt exactly the same as a clean shot on game.

Thanks for all that. For Human Defense, it's just split times/controllability I'm more comfortable with the 125-145 gr loads. And there is real overpenetration concerns in city environment for cheaper 158 gr sjhp. Doesn't mean 158's or harder bullets aren't in the reload though. I figure a 125 gr XTP or Gold Dot in a Carbine may turn into a meteorite in a 16" but still be plenty good for HD-100 yards+. That's a future buy I think. Specifically for animals 158 xtps maybe best. I've seen enough 158 gr sjhp tests from 3-6" that the cheap stuff will give mild expansion deep penetration which should work just fine 2 legged to 4 legged from 3"-24" barrels probably which that fact alone makes .357 a really great useful cartridge . The old Federal 158 gr sjhp Defense load though is very serious expansion good penetration for 2 legged not really that deep for 4 legged like most the other cheaper rounds out there.

Based on results looking like a whole lot combine into that 125-145 gr range, perhaps those that still somewhat regularly carry a fighting revolver in cities/towns for 2 legged protection. And the 158 or heavier crowd, that based on results, I am guessing either live out in the boondocks, or strap a pistol on for in- town or are still working LE, and the .357s only come out when out in the woods or on weekends etc?

[Malamute]

Thanks for all that. For Human Defense, it's just split times/controllability I'm more comfortable with the 125-145 gr loads. And there is real overpenetration concerns in city environment for cheaper 158 gr sjhp. Doesn't mean 158's or harder bullets aren't in the reload though. I figure a 125 gr XTP or Gold Dot in a Carbine may turn into a meteorite in a 16" but still be plenty good for HD-100 yards+. That's a future buy I think. Specifically for animals 158 xtps maybe best. I've seen enough 158 gr sjhp tests from 3-6" that the cheap stuff will give mild expansion deep penetration which should work just fine 2 legged to 4 legged from 3"-24" barrels probably which that fact alone makes .357 a really great useful cartridge . The old Federal 158 gr sjhp Defense load though is very serious expansion good penetration for 2 legged not really that deep for 4 legged like most the other cheaper rounds out there.

Based on results looking like a whole lot combine into that 125-145 gr range, perhaps those that still somewhat regularly carry a fighting revolver in cities/towns for 2 legged protection. And the 158 or heavier crowd, that based on results, I am guessing either live out in the boondocks, or strap a pistol on for in- town or are still working LE, and the .357s only come out when out in the woods or on weekends etc?

Yes, we all have our personal priorities for various reasons and should choose loads accordingly. Less than full magnum is probably more practical in urban areas and lighter guns. Im in both extremely rural and some civilized areas, I just keep the same loads for simplification and zero.

Im thinking less about splits and more on effectiveness and assessment pace shooting. The guys with experience using 357s tend to indicate the 158s work very well, I have some Remington 158 sjhp loads. That load seems to be a reliable one from all I can gather in both pistol and carbine. Ive mostly been a fan of larger caliber stuff most of my life, my trending towards lighter guns and loads has been creeping in over several years after an injury. Something Steve (LSP 972) mentioned sticks in my mind,

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?14306-Revolver-article-in-MSW&p=277407&viewfull=1#post277407

[SCCY Marshal]

Further thought point...

Do any on here actually live anywhere go out deep woods hunting/hiking anywhere that a 158 gr whatever wouldn't likely be good enough for animal defense? Or where a 170/180 .357 or typical .40/10mm FMJ-FP wouldn't actually be good enough (or Flat Point/Hard Cast 9/45 for that matter)?

I'm familiar with one local multi-jurisdictional police shooting involving the failure of 12 rounds of 357 Magnum to stop a rather perturbed moose. Six of those shots hit the skull. The scene was ultimately brought under control by one shot from a slug loaded 12 gauge. Knowing the agencies involved, the load was most likely a 158 grain SJHP. Local agencies had been switching to the heavier bullets from the 125 grain SJHP which worked fine on people but they mostly shot big animals and it wasn't so good for that over a fair bit of experience.

[03RN]

My typical edc load is my 147gr hst at 1275fps. In the woods it's 170gr swc at 1200fps.

We have moose, bears, and bobcats/yotes. I'm more worried about the smaller predators going after my little kids or a moose then the bears around here.

If I didn't reload I'd buy loaded 158gr xtps. They typical go 1200-1250. That's also my backup jhp load I've got loaded up. They do very well from my 20" carbine too.

[03RN]

I also often carry heavy .45acp/colt (255-270 @ 950-1000fps) because I like them and they really do hammer deer hard. If I was around bigger bears I'd stick with them.

[eb07]

135gr gold dots

[MK11]

I'm a big fan of 135 grain gold dots regardless of barrel length but Speer doesn't seem to even be making it right now. It's joined #1 Federal Elite Control as a great but irrelevant load these days.

[TGS]

I'm a big fan of 135 grain gold dots regardless of barrel length but Speer doesn't seem to even be making it right now. It's joined #1 Federal Elite Control as a great but irrelevant load these days.

I bet it's just an issue of production capacity. I keep some on hand for my wheelguns as well, but there's probably just not a lot of demand to justify turning off production of other high demand SKUs to make room for it in this current environment.

[Ghost Dog]

Figured many missed this .357 HST Data (along with .327 HST, Modern 147 HST, and 9mm Punch data too)
Here you go. Official. Organic.
You will have to decipher
.327 HST listed on top
.357 HST on bottom
Included some recent 9mm because figured this is all of interest to those on here.

HST Magnum Revolver

327 Federal

357 Magnum



Bullet

104gr HSP HP

154gr HST HP



Test Barrel Velocity

1525

1340

4" Barrel

Gun Avg Velocity

1450

1250

Bare Gel Penetration

11.7"

15.5"

Bare Gel Expansion

0.683"

.648"

Heavy Cloth Penetration

12.7"

16"

Heavy Cloth Expansion

0.609

0.587"

Snub nose

Gun Avg Velocity

1225

1080

Bare Gel Penetration

12.2"

14.8"

Bare Gel Expansion

0.681"

0.657"

Heavy Cloth Penetration

14.5"

16"

Heavy Cloth Expansion

0.546"

0.565"



124gr Punch 9mm (Shot from G43)

Heavy Clothing 13.4 pen, 0.614 exp

Bare Gel 13.1 pen, exp 0.634



Current 147gr HST 9mm (Shot from Glock 47)

Heavy Clothing 14.6 pen, 0.605 exp

Bare Gel 13.5 pen, 0.691 exp

[JTMcC]

About 80% of our .357 rounds are loaded as fast as we can drive them, if for no other reason than because it's fun.

And about 100% of them are either a hard cast SWC or an XTP, both at 158 or so. That's because I have big boxes full of those, if I ever use them up I'll probably try some heavier cast bullets but I'm pretty sold on 158 gr. XTP's. Maybe try the Barnes XPB, maybe not.

In .44 mag (that I shoot a lot more of now than .357) I'm pretty content with middle of the road velocities.
We grew up shooting Dad's .357's and he didn't scrimp on the powder charge :), when we were little rugrats he loaded some light loads for us or used .38 Specials.

All of the .357's I shoot are full size steel guns, we don't shoot them thru carbines. I'm frequently around larger dangerous animals and have no concern for what people term "overpenetration".

[Glock17JHP]

Figured many missed this .357 HST Data (along with .327 HST, Modern 147 HST, and 9mm Punch data too)
Here you go. Official. Organic.
You will have to decipher
.327 HST listed on top
.357 HST on bottom
Included some recent 9mm because figured this is all of interest to those on here.

HST Magnum Revolver

327 Federal

357 Magnum



Bullet

104gr HSP HP

154gr HST HP



Test Barrel Velocity

1525

1340

4" Barrel

Gun Avg Velocity

1450

1250

Bare Gel Penetration

11.7"

15.5"

Bare Gel Expansion

0.683"

.648"

Heavy Cloth Penetration

12.7"

16"

Heavy Cloth Expansion

0.609

0.587"

Snub nose

Gun Avg Velocity

1225

1080

Bare Gel Penetration

12.2"

14.8"

Bare Gel Expansion

0.681"

0.657"

Heavy Cloth Penetration

14.5"

16"

Heavy Cloth Expansion

0.546"

0.565"



124gr Punch 9mm (Shot from G43)

Heavy Clothing 13.4 pen, 0.614 exp

Bare Gel 13.1 pen, exp 0.634



Current 147gr HST 9mm (Shot from Glock 47)

Heavy Clothing 14.6 pen, 0.605 exp

Bare Gel 13.5 pen, 0.691 exp

Comparing your data to my data...

Federal .357 Magnum 154 grain HST (your data) vs Winchester .357 Magnum 145 grain Silvertip (my data)

Federal HST (your data)
Bare Gelatin 15.5" Pen / .65" Exp
Heavy Cloth 16.0" Pen / .59" Exp

Winchester Silvertip (my data)
Bare Gelatin 15.3" Pen / .55" Exp
Heavy Cloth 16.4" Pen / .58" Exp

---------------------------------------

Federal 9mm 147 grain HST

Federal HST (your data)
Bare Gelatin 13.5" Pen / .69" Exp
Heavy Cloth 14.6" Pen / .60" Exp

Federal HST (my data)
Bare Gelatin 12.0" Pen / .85" Exp
Heavy Cloth 12.5" Pen / .69" Exp

[Joe Mac]

Federal 9mm 147 grain HST

Federal HST (your data)
Bare Gelatin 13.5" Pen / .69" Exp
Heavy Cloth 14.6" Pen / .60" Exp

Federal HST (my data)
Bare Gelatin 12.0" Pen / .85" Exp
Heavy Cloth 12.5" Pen / .69" Exp

This looks like the expected difference between the current 147 HST (redesigned for more penetration and less expansion) and the older one.

[Glock17JHP]

This looks like the expected difference between the current 147 HST (redesigned for more penetration and less expansion) and the older one.


Do you know when that change was made? My data is from this year...

[Joe Mac]

Do you know when that change was made? My data is from this year...

Hmm, interesting -- how old was the lot you tested? The change was several years ago. If you search for "new 147 HST" there are a few threads on it here, with pics of the pulled bullets, old vs. new.

[Glock17JHP]

Hmm, interesting -- how old was the lot you tested? The change was several years ago. If you search for "new 147 HST" there are a few threads on it here, with pics of the pulled bullets, old vs. new.


Purchased less than a year ago...

[Glock17JHP]

My ammo has the blue primer seal, I think I may have been looking at older data than I thought I was looking at ???

[Glock17JHP]

I was looking at old testing data...
I got the 9mm HST ammunition out that was used in my testing and the unfired sample has no visible primer sealant. Also, the fired/expanded bullet is fully expanded to the degree that the petals opened up all the way down to the base of the bullet. And, I can look between the petals of the fired/expanded bullet and see a single cannelure.
I have the newer version that has the blue sealant, but haven't tested those yet...
(embarrassing)

[Ghost Dog]

Current data I gave vs old Vista le data?
You can belive the data I gave

Or tested yourself Organic 4 layer?
On cell now so not easy to compare

And I'll have to look up Winchesters data on the 145 silvertip

HST and punch
New stuff blue...older stuff I have I think was either clear or red not positive without being home to look.

[Glock17JHP]

Comparing your data to my data...

Federal .357 Magnum 154 grain HST (your data) vs Winchester .357 Magnum 145 grain Silvertip (my data)

Federal HST (your data)
Bare Gelatin 15.5" Pen / .65" Exp
Heavy Cloth 16.0" Pen / .59" Exp

Winchester Silvertip (my data)
Bare Gelatin 15.3" Pen / .55" Exp
Heavy Cloth 16.4" Pen / .58" Exp



OK, back to the topic of .357 Magnum...

Although the .357 Magnum HST and Silvertip data above is similar, the HST is a bit better. Add to that the obviously better bullet design and function, and the HST would make a better choice for self defense. I would change my vote, if possible, to reflect my thoughts.

I am seeing the .357 Magnum HST available on about 30 websites. I am considering a purchase.

[TC215]

My ammo has the blue primer seal, I think I may have been looking at older data than I thought I was looking at ???


Current data I gave vs old Vista le data?
You can belive the data I gave

Or tested yourself Organic 4 layer?
On cell now so not easy to compare

And I'll have to look up Winchesters data on the 145 silvertip

HST and punch
New stuff blue...older stuff I have I think was either clear or red not positive without being home to look.

The color of the sealant doesn't have anything to do with the age, just whatever machine they were using.

[Glock17JHP]

Current data I gave vs old Vista le data?
You can belive the data I gave

Or tested yourself Organic 4 layer?
On cell now so not easy to compare

And I'll have to look up Winchesters data on the 145 silvertip

HST and punch
New stuff blue...older stuff I have I think was either clear or red not positive without being home to look.

First question is yes, and I have to admit I had no idea the P9HST2 load had been changed until yesterday. I also am glad it was changed, I prefer 13 to 14" penetration over 12".

Please let me know what you find on the .357 Silvertip, more info is welcomed.

My older 9mm HST has no visible sealant, my newer (6 mos, roughly) has blue sealant.

[Guerrero]

I'm wondering if anyone has checked out the 158 JHP XTP from High Desert Cartridge (https://highdesertcartridge.com/). DB mentioned them on his Facebook page, because the 158 TMJ practice ammo matches it.

[Ghost Dog]

First question is yes, and I have to admit I had no idea the P9HST2 load had been changed until yesterday. I also am glad it was changed, I prefer 13 to 14" penetration over 12".

Please let me know what you find on the .357 Silvertip, more info is welcomed.

My older 9mm HST has no visible sealant, my newer (6 mos, roughly) has blue sealant.

I trust federals QC and primers more than modern day winchester. Not sure if modern is as fast as old and old data.
Hst will do better vs barriers I am sure and animal defense

Hst has stout recoil. Fine for 3-4" steel guns over 30 ounces not for 21 and under oz stuff.

Winchester was good on bipeds and likely dog/cayote not for bears/moose.

There is winchester fbi and other data on old Silvertip it's very good terminal ballistics but depending on needs yes hst is modern brand new. Still, under 30oz not in bear/moose country Silvertip heavy recoil but not as much as hst.

[revchuck38]

I'm wondering if anyone has checked out the 158 JHP XTP from High Desert Cartridge (https://highdesertcartridge.com/). DB mentioned them on his Facebook page, because the 158 TMJ practice ammo matches it.

I emailed him to ask about the velocity from a 4" barrel, and he replied that it's ~900 fps. That would be really nice for my 4" M19 if it expands at that velocity. If it doesn't, I'd be afraid of overpenetration. I haven't ordered any yet.

[Glock17JHP]

I trust federals QC and primers more than modern day winchester. Not sure if modern is as fast as old and old data.
Hst will do better vs barriers I am sure and animal defense

Hst has stout recoil. Fine for 3-4" steel guns over 30 ounces not for 21 and under oz stuff.

Winchester was good on bipeds and likely dog/cayote not for bears/moose.

There is winchester fbi and other data on old Silvertip it's very good terminal ballistics but depending on needs yes hst is modern brand new. Still, under 30oz not in bear/moose country Silvertip heavy recoil but not as much as hst.

My .357 Magnum is a 4" barrel Ruger GP-100 at/near 42 ounces, IIRC. The Silvertip recoil is not an issue at all, so not concerned about the HST.

Agree about Winchester to a degree...

[Ghost Dog]

My .357 Magnum is a 4" barrel Ruger GP-100 at/near 42 ounces, IIRC. The Silvertip recoil is not an issue at all, so not concerned about the HST.

Agree about Winchester to a degree...

There you go, HST is the better modern bullet so order some and see how it goes

[Ghost Dog]

I emailed him to ask about the velocity from a 4" barrel, and he replied that it's ~900 fps. That would be really nice for my 4" M19 if it expands at that velocity. If it doesn't, I'd be afraid of overpenetration. I haven't ordered any yet.

Don't 158 xtps need 1150-1200 fps to expand?

[revchuck38]

Don't 158 xtps need 1150-1200 fps to expand?

My Hornady 7th Edition manual shows that bullet with a "muzzle velocity range" (no definition given) of 700-1400 fps. Lucky Gunner's gel testing using Clear Ballistic gel (yeah, I know...) showed expansion to .50" at 1082 fps. Since the clear gel is said to (read: the interwebz sez so) understate expansion, it would seem that there's some room for expansion at less velocity. I couldn't find anything that says that it does, though.

[Glock17JHP]

There you go, HST is the better modern bullet so order some and see how it goes

I am planning to buy some .357 Magnum HST and test it in my water test tank, along with a new test with recently purchased .357 Magnum Silvertip.

Comparison...

[03RN]

I really wouldn't trust xtps to expand below 1000fps

[Guerrero]

I emailed him to ask about the velocity from a 4" barrel, and he replied that it's ~900 fps. That would be really nice for my 4" M19 if it expands at that velocity. If it doesn't, I'd be afraid of overpenetration. I haven't ordered any yet.

IIRC, DB said the goal of this round was to be able to shoot full .357 Magnum out of a classic K frame without beating the crap out of it.

[Ghost Dog]

I am planning to buy some .357 Magnum HST and test it in my water test tank, along with a new test with recently purchased .357 Magnum Silvertip.

Comparison...


Will this be videotaped?

Can you chrono them? Curious if new Silvertip is a good bit slower than old.

So you will get really really good vs really good lol starting to split hairs

Silvertip in water will get more expansion less Pen, unless you push it too fast the edges frag off. I don't think this will be too bad in Ruger 4.2" though Ruger barrels are generally very fast, but I would expect it from a 6".

HST will be far superior in 6-20" barrels as well, as well as through serious barriers and bone

Over 30 oz revo should get HST if we are optimizing
Under 30 oz revo Silvertip for better control, though an sp101 w Rubber Grips probably handles HST well if you needed that for woods and city.

The interesting test to me is HST vs 125 xtp vs 158 xtp in a lever gun....a guess because I have never owned one and would like to get one lol. I think any of those loads would likely do whatever is reasonably expected to do with them from a lever gun.

Either way both are very good for bipeds/city. HST slightly better for animal defense and windshields I would expect IMO.

post your results.

[SwampDweller]

I had purchased a hundred rounds of recent production Winchester Silvertip before I read about current QC issues (but I had experienced numerous QC issues with other Winchester loads). I actually bought it because for some reason I was under the impression that it was a mid-level .357 load that still had excellent ballistics. It was relegated to practice ammo. Just recently I ended up shooting it and it had as much recoil/blast if not more (subjectively speaking) than my old standby Remington 158gr SJHP, and shot noticeably dirtier. However, I didn't have any issues with it going off, and it wasn't unpleasant to shoot by any means.

I've dropped the Silvertip from consideration due to the well-deserved reputation of Winchester's poor QC in ammunition nowadays as well as the fact that it's really no more controllable than a full power 158gr SJHP.

For a mid-weight grain .357 I've found the Hornady Critical Duty to have a little less muzzle flip (relatively speaking) and blast than my favorite full-power Rem 158gr SJHP load, though there are no practice .357-level loads available in 135gr.

Even the Remington 158gr SJHP .357 load is plenty pleasant enough for me to shoot through a 4" or 5" GP100 with the Hogue Tamer grip on it. I still like the idea of a mid-level .357 load that still gets .357 Magnum ballistics. The Remington 125gr Golden Saber is one I'm looking into. On paper, it doesn't look like it really has anything over a 9mm +P, but from what I've seen handgun hunting, .357 certainly has a more desirable effect on game even if the expansion/penetration numbers on paper aren't all that dissimilar to a 9mm 124gr +P Gold Dot.

Another load I'm looking into is the 125gr and 158gr XTP. I'm also trying to find information on the best general purpose (defense/hunting) load for a lever action rifle. Can't find much specific on here other than handloads that is still in production.

[Ghost Dog]

I had purchased a hundred rounds of recent production Winchester Silvertip before I read about current QC issues (but I had experienced numerous QC issues with other Winchester loads). I actually bought it because for some reason I was under the impression that it was a mid-level .357 load that still had excellent ballistics. It was relegated to practice ammo. Just recently I ended up shooting it and it had as much recoil/blast if not more (subjectively speaking) than my old standby Remington 158gr SJHP, and shot noticeably dirtier. However, I didn't have any issues with it going off, and it wasn't unpleasant to shoot by any means.

I've dropped the Silvertip from consideration due to the well-deserved reputation of Winchester's poor QC in ammunition nowadays as well as the fact that it's really no more controllable than a full power 158gr SJHP.

For a mid-weight grain .357 I've found the Hornady Critical Duty to have a little less muzzle flip (relatively speaking) and blast than my favorite full-power Rem 158gr SJHP load, though there are no practice .357-level loads available in 135gr.

Even the Remington 158gr SJHP .357 load is plenty pleasant enough for me to shoot through a 4" or 5" GP100 with the Hogue Tamer grip on it. I still like the idea of a mid-level .357 load that still gets .357 Magnum ballistics. The Remington 125gr Golden Saber is one I'm looking into. On paper, it doesn't look like it really has anything over a 9mm +P, but from what I've seen handgun hunting, .357 certainly has a more desirable effect on game even if the expansion/penetration numbers on paper aren't all that dissimilar to a 9mm 124gr +P Gold Dot.

Another load I'm looking into is the 125gr and 158gr XTP. I'm also trying to find information on the best general purpose (defense/hunting) load for a lever action rifle. Can't find much specific on here other than handloads that is still in production.

I am personally not that impressed by Critical Duty for Terminal Ballistics for In Gun, though as a reload is fine. The recoil is mild...velocity may be slower than you expect as well....
In Smaller lighter Revolvers I do find the 145 gr Silvertip less recoil than the 158s, which lighter than 30oz 158s are too much for IN GUN as far as fast splits and transitions between targets. A reload with Critical Duty, or 158s (though will hit a bit higher) is just fine IMO.

For 4-5" if you are getting to where you need less recoil I would be fine with 125 xtps from that long a barrel, if you want more velocity than what 125 Golden Sabers will give. That may be the middle ground load for the 4-5" Gp100s. Though honestly If all your batch you bought has been fine, I would carry the Silvertips and not worry depending on your needs.

I am wanting a 16" .357 Lever, just because it's short enough for actual city Home Defense if needed, light enough to maneuver for a woman/teen, and can still reach out 100-120 yards. If it was city home I would likely go 125 xtps. If out in woods cabin, both biped and animal defense and hunting 158 xtp though curious how well the HST's do as stated above.
Be careful of the many many companies that load with 158 gr xtps....Some are so slow skimping on powder as to be worthless.

Maybe something there helps.

[Ghost Dog]

OK Hairsplitting data time boys

.357 154 gr HST Real World Chronos from various sources on the nets
2" 1112 fps 423 ME a different 2" different day 1115 fps 425 ME
4" Smith 1255 fps 538 ME
4.2" Ruger GP100 1318 fps 594 ME

[Ghost Dog]

Winchester Silvertip .357 Man 145 Grain Data over the ages
FBI
1989 OVERALL OG 8 EVENTS AVGs
3" Smith M13 1166 fps 438 ME 13.76" Pen .499 Exp 82.5% Pass (of the 40 rounds I believe to get at least 12" Pen through various barrier events)

1989 FBI BARE ORGANIC 15.8" .58
Heavy Clothing 12.9 .64

Winchester DATA 2010 at 1290 fps
4 LAYER DENIM
16.4" .58


And very possible the load had rolling changes. Winchester bragged it was 4 layer Denim testing in 2010, and didn't say in 2016 if it was still 4 layer denim or if they switched to 4 layer heavy clothing?

Also, not sure if new stuff is as hot as old stuff.

[Ghost Dog]

Part III. FBI Ammunition Tests Data:

.357 Magnum 125 grain Remington Golden Saber JHP, 2/9/93:

Test Gun Barrel Length Velocity
Bare Gelatin

Clothed Gelatin

Penetration Expansion Penetration Expansion
S&W M19

4" 1220 fps 14.40" 0.56" 20.55" 0.48"




.357 Magnum 125 grain Federal JHP, 7/27/90:

Test Gun Barrel Length Velocity
Bare Gelatin

Clothed Gelatin

Penetration Expansion Penetration Expansion
S&W M13

3" 1265 fps 10.65" 0.49" 11.75" 0.51"





.357 Magnum 145 grain Winchester Silvertip JHP, 2/21/89:

Test Gun Barrel Length Velocity
Bare Gelatin

Clothed Gelatin

Penetration Expansion Penetration Expansion
S&W M13

3" 1166 fps 15.80" 0.58" 12.90" 0.64"




.357 Magnum 158 grain Federal JHP, 2/28/91:

Test Gun Barrel Length Velocity
Bare Gelatin

Clothed Gelatin

Penetration Expansion Penetration Expansion
S&W M19

4" 1200 fps 16.50" 0.50" 15.90" 0.64"




.357 Magnum 158 grain Federal HydraShok JHP, 7/14/89:

Test Gun Barrel Length Velocity
Bare Gelatin

Clothed Gelatin

Penetration Expansion Penetration Expansion
S&W M13

3" 1183 fps 24.70" 0.37" 34.50" 0.46"

[Ghost Dog]

Winchester 2010 manufacturer data 4-Layer Denim
125 gr Super-X JHP 1450 fps 584 ME 12.3" Pen .54 Exp
158 gr Super-X JHP 1235 fps 535 17.7 .48 exp

Of note both there 125+p and 158+p .38 loads failed to expand through 4 layer denim

What changes made, and if less powder used, slower now vs what was then claimed is anyone's guess

Call the old LE ask questions line and it sounds like a Fax for a second and hangs up :)


Also note-
Some 158 gr SJHP will expand good, to great in Federal's case. Most 158 sjhp will expand just a bit and penetrate far. Crowded City too much pen for my liking though fine for reload. For those of you NW or out in sticks that have to worry about both 2 legged and 4 legged it's likely good enough for most situations. Again though, like I mentioned with 158 xtps, it seems some that a lot of companies started when Bad Flu happened had to skimp on powder and now a ton of magnum stuff...isn't magnum and won't expand.

[revchuck38]

IIRC, DB said the goal of this round was to be able to shoot full .357 Magnum out of a classic K frame without beating the crap out of it.

Actually, he said he wanted to be able to shoot .357 Magnum without it beating the crap out of him. He's got really bad arthritis in his wrists, plus he does like K frames. Conventional wisdom is that full-power 158s are less harmful to K frames than full-power 125s, but physics is physics and the recoil from either is stout. He also dislikes the crud ring that builds up in .357 chambers when you shoot .38s.

[Guerrero]

Actually, he said he wanted to be able to shoot .357 Magnum without it beating the crap out of him. He's got really bad arthritis in his wrists, plus he does like K frames. Conventional wisdom is that full-power 158s are less harmful to K frames than full-power 125s, but physics is physics and the recoil from either is stout. He also dislikes the crud ring that builds up in .357 chambers when you shoot .38s.

Yup, that was the quote.

[LockedBreech]

My only .357 is my grandpa's 4" Colt Python he carried on duty in the 1960s. It doesn't get shot a lot, and never carried, and when I do shoot it, it mostly gets range ammo and/or .38 Special. But I have a box of 125-grain Remington Golden Sabers, and I keep an HKS speedloader of them next to it in the safe. Simply because I'm a sentimental sort, it's an old warrior, and I feel like it deserves to have some duty ammo.

[Guerrero]

Actually, he said he wanted to be able to shoot .357 Magnum without it beating the crap out of him. He's got really bad arthritis in his wrists, plus he does like K frames. Conventional wisdom is that full-power 158s are less harmful to K frames than full-power 125s, but physics is physics and the recoil from either is stout. He also dislikes the crud ring that builds up in .357 chambers when you shoot .38s.

For those interested (I know I am), I culled from a couple of DB's FB posts:



Had a great day with this S&W Model-19-3 2.5” barreled “Cadillac Snub”. I am continuing to test the High Desert Cartridge Company .357 Magnum load I helped consult on. The goal was to have a good .357 cased load to use in .357 Magnum chambered revolvers that would not leave a ring in the cylinder like .38 Special does. We went with a velocity of around 800 fps that mimics a .38 Special load with low pressure. The bullets are 158 grain flat point Total Metal Jacket to run clean. Low recoil, clean, reliable and very easy on the older classic guns I love to shoot. I sighted this gun in for the High Desert Cartridge Compnay training load and shot 50 rounds with no real discomfort. That is with an open backstrap wood gripped Magnum snub. I then confirmed that sight zero with the High Desert carry load that is a 158 grain Hornady XTP bullet. The rounds hit to the same place. I kept all of the rounds fired inside the 10 ring of a B8 target at 10 yards at a good pace after the first sight in rounds.
So far this project with High Desert Cartridge Company has been a success for the goals Steve Shields and I set for this load. It is great to be able to take this older guns out and enjoy them.




Here we go!
Everything I am teaching the rest of the year is revolver-centric (or shotgun). The workhorse revolver got broke out of the safe and sits in front of me while watching TV with loaders and dummy rounds. This gun is sort of a Mutt….which makes it a great beater to train on. Finks built it at some point. My good pal and teaching partner Bryan Eastridge got the internals dialed and cleaned up a few issues. It is originally a 1973 Model 19 that had a 4 or 6 inch barrel in it, so it is a square butt gun and has been fitted with a 2.5” barrel and a custom front sight with a brass bead. I like it because it looks like a miniature 3.5” Model 27 that are my favorite revolvers. It has lost all its collector value so I do not mind working it hard. I took it out today to start a dedicated training regimen with it.

The first thing I did is to confirm zero on the sights. This gun will exclusively get High Desert Cartridge Company .357 Magnum loads from here out, so I wanted to make sure it was dialed in. It shot to the sights as it was previously shot a lot with 158 gr. lead .38’s. This is where doing the custom .357 Magnum load with High Desert Cartridge Company was validated. Ejection was initially sticky due to the ring in the cylinders left from an obvious diet of .38’s in the .357 chambers over the years. This got better throughout the training session as the ring was getting removed with heat and proper length cases pushed in. Accuracy was good and the goal of workable recoil was also met even with the short barrel, open backstrap and wood grips.

Next I shot a HiTS Snubby Super Test. I have shot some of my best regular Revolver Super Test scores with a different 2.5” Model 19-3, so running the snub version really defines what made these guns so good for many plainclothes and off-duty police officers in place of the 2” J frame. I shot 6 rounds at the 10,5 and 3 yard stages instead of the normal 5. After ten yards, every single round was in the X ring of the B8. Total score was a 179/180. This is the best score I have ever shot on the Snubby Super Test. Truly the defining moment was how easy this gun was to shoot a hole at 3 yards one handed as fast as I could recover a sight and stroking the trigger continuously. The rounded trigger on this gun really helps. Normally, with a full house .357 load with one hand on a snub….one hole is not the result. This is a trade off I will take at this point in life. I want to be able to shoot fast in full control AND surgically. Not having a shot of lightning into the base of thumb with every trigger press really helps on the accuracy and consistency side.

I shot another control drill on the 1 inch dot and called it a day in the 110 degree temperature. I went at noon because I knew zeroing this gun I wanted the Sun directly behind me. It worked well to see the sights correctly, but lord it was hot. I have another aftermarket rear sight that I am going to have Finks Custom Guns cut a half circle at the base of to better frame the old man brass bead in front. It should give me a good sight picture for both B8 work and then the bead for the fast stuff.

Overall, I could not be happier with the High Desert Cartridge 357 Magnum load that basically puts a good .38 in a .357 Magnum case. I have done all the initial load work up with a workhorse Model 28-2 Highway Patrolman. It did everything I wanted in having a solid easy training load for shooting the older service guns. Seeing how well it shoots in a K frame snub is a win. I also saw first hand a correction for an issue that many do not realize that shooting .38 Specials in .357 Magnum chambers can cause some issues we do not realize. Another great thing….with FMJ ammunition, I do not feel the need to immediately clean it and can get a couple more range sessions in before I have to clean it. Later this week I will tackle a regular Revolver Super Test.


Now, it may be that the XTP in these doesn't expand, but I would be grateful if someone could find out. Not to mention the fact that they are reasonably priced.

[Ghost Dog]

around 800 fps I am going to say no from a 158 xtp. The only bullet that diameter that will expand that low I can think of is old HST load, and maybe, maybe some BB very soft swclhp. UW had a similar load I don't think they do now. Fiocchi 148gr is a new possibility. I don't believe Fiocchi's defense dynamics bullets are something that can be sourced but you never know if the right people like DB ask

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXRGma5TZAw&t=

[Glock17JHP]

Will this be videotaped?

Can you chrono them? Curious if new Silvertip is a good bit slower than old.

So you will get really really good vs really good lol starting to split hairs

Silvertip in water will get more expansion less Pen, unless you push it too fast the edges frag off. I don't think this will be too bad in Ruger 4.2" though Ruger barrels are generally very fast, but I would expect it from a 6".

HST will be far superior in 6-20" barrels as well, as well as through serious barriers and bone

Over 30 oz revo should get HST if we are optimizing
Under 30 oz revo Silvertip for better control, though an sp101 w Rubber Grips probably handles HST well if you needed that for woods and city.

The interesting test to me is HST vs 125 xtp vs 158 xtp in a lever gun....a guess because I have never owned one and would like to get one lol. I think any of those loads would likely do whatever is reasonably expected to do with them from a lever gun.

Either way both are very good for bipeds/city. HST slightly better for animal defense and windshields I would expect IMO.

post your results.


No, it won't be videotaped, and I will not be chronographing, either.

Am aware of limitations of water testing, that was my method of testing while in the IWBA for all of my testing that was published in our WBR journal.

I will post if I deem it to be helpful.

[Ghost Dog]

Provided Data Requested plus more for everyone

[Velociginger]

[QUOTE=Guerrero;1577902]




Now, it may be that the XTP in these doesn't expand, but I would be grateful if someone could find out. Not to mention the fact that they are reasonably priced.[/QUOTE

I shoot a couple thousand XTPs a year, spread between 45 Colt, .38SPL, and .357 Mag. I don’t have any ballistics gel or water tanks, but I shoot piles of deer and hogs. In my experience, the XTPs have to be pushed pretty hard to expand, I’m guessing over 1K. My .38 special load (125 XTP, more of a 38-44) expands in animals, but it’s doing 1180 out of a 4 inch M19.
Hopefully that is of some value.

[Lost River]

This stuff is pretty popular in my house.

https://i.imgur.com/z3TOXdWh.jpg


170 grain Keith wide nose SWC hard cast.

[03RN]

This stuff is pretty popular in my house.

https://i.imgur.com/z3TOXdWh.jpg


170 grain Keith wide nose SWC hard cast.

Yup, the bears are out

[Hazmatt]

This stuff is pretty popular in my house.

https://i.imgur.com/z3TOXdWh.jpg


170 grain Keith wide nose SWC hard cast.


What are the grips on that revolver? If you don't mind me asking.

[Lost River]

What are the grips on that revolver? If you don't mind me asking.

They are Herrett's Detectives.

[Hazmatt]

Much appreciated!

[Ghost Dog]

Anyone else want to chime in....

[Sherman A. House DDS]

Thank you for your understanding, I hope you don't mind me jumping on this figuring out how to run a Poll.
While the Silvertips would take care of a large dog/cayote/mountain lion, If I was Moose/Bear type country 154 would be the lowest weight I would go though I am certainly not an expert regarding animal defense. Even cheaper 158 sjhps seem to do rather well as far as deep penetration with mild expansion. The HST looks like it would be a good in and around towns in the NW type of load to do everything.

And, .357 carbines certainly become interesting...where they optimize velocity about 18" so a 16" is pretty close to 20" velocity I believe...158 sjhp or harder jhps...gold dots/xtps/critical duty I am sure all would perform well. I wasn't even thinking the Carbine Category. Has anyone done any Jug testing w/357 carbines? Anything learned there? I have watched a few videos on the subject. Does anyone use a .357 Lever for HD or have it for your wife/kids to use? A 16" is short/handy and lightweight. 20" still pretty much so and a couple more rounds.

And yes, I am sorry for forgetting about the low recoil 135 gr gold dot (suppose the Mild 357s Gold Dot/Golden Saber/Critical Defense could be grouped together), and the 158 Gold Dot could probably be grouped with the 158 HS or other JHPs.

Sorry to dig up an old post… RE jug testing. No jugs tested, but Chuck Haggard and I HAVE shot 125’s and 158’s through my Rossi and 4 ply denim into Clear Gel. The 125’s upset early and frag but do go 16” while the 158’s traverse the block and are arrested in the trailing denim. I carry 158 hardcast SWC’s in my levers and most of my >40 ounce revos. And I plan for Rule 4 and pick my angle as best as I can to minimize over penetration. If that was a concern, I would go 125 grain SJHP. We also shot an AK with 123 grain Wolf ball and the results were similar, and also arrested in the trailing denim.


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[Ghost Dog]

Sorry to dig up an old post… RE jug testing. No jugs tested, but Chuck Haggard and I HAVE shot 125’s and 158’s through my Rossi and 4 ply denim into Clear Gel. The 125’s upset early and frag but do go 16” while the 158’s traverse the block and are arrested in the trailing denim. I carry 158 hardcast SWC’s in my levers and most of my >40 ounce revos. And I plan for Rule 4 and pick my angle as best as I can to minimize over penetration. If that was a concern, I would go 125 grain SJHP. We also shot an AK with 123 grain Wolf ball and the results were similar, and also arrested in the trailing denim.


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Thanks, I still don't have a levergat but it seems diverse....
And 125s in city or 158s would do just about anything... HST or Hydrashok or various whatever SJHP or XTPs loaded by whomever at carbine velocities all should do well whatever ammo laying around which would be nice.


Clear Gel isn't very dense, but can you elaborate on the Wolf, did it yaw and damage well or was it a minimal wound.....
Thanks