View Full Version : Randy Cain's Practical Rifle
On 5-7 Nov I took the Practical Rifle class at Southern Exposure (http://www.southernexposuretraining.com/) by Randy Cain (http://guntactics.com/). From Randy's web site (http://guntactics.com/Rifle.htm):
This course is best suited to lightweight, fast handling bolt action rifles with iron sights or low power scopes. Lever rifles are also permitted. The format explores practical marksmanship at practical distances under field conditions. Problems are addressed from near contact distance out to 400 yards maximum. It is not a "long range" shooting course.The course is suitable for the person who wishes to utilize the rifle as a defensive tool as well as the hunter in the sporting field. We begin with curriculum including: safety, marksmanship, position shooting, sling work, and a working knowledge of practical ballistics. Once established, our focus turns to learning to fight with a "common, ordinary deer rifle." We incorporate tactical drills which are more traditionally encountered in 'tactical rifle' or 'urban carbine' type courses for magazine fed rifles. This exercise will give the student a superior level of gunhandling and manipulations skills. It's challenging, and it's a lot of fun! (It's also one of my favorite classes to teach.) A 3-day course.
Ammunition Requirement: 500 Rounds.
The Southern Exposure range maxes out at 200yd, so we never hit the 400 yard maximum.
Before I go on, a little about me. I've taken a small handful pistol classes, including Randy Cain's 3-day Handgun 101 and the Roger's Shooting School Intermediate class, but I've never had any instruction with a rifle. I feel like I'm close to being what I would call "competent" with a pistol, and I'd like to start the path to achieving the same with a bolt rifle. I thought Randy's PR class would be a good first class, partly because it sounded like it would cover the fundamentals while also exposing me to some tactical drills, but mostly because I trust Randy and he said it was a good first rifle class. :) Also, the logistics and timing worked for me.
I took no pictures, there was a lot going on. I also didn't take the kind of notes that would let me reconstruct the class, so my chronology might be way off below. If you want the perspective of someone with a lot more training experience than me, Rob Sloyer has an article in this month's SWAT magazine about this class. This is my AAR - there are many like it, but this one is mine.
Right from the start, it was easy to see that there was a wide array of skill levels in the class. One dude was getting OK groups in slow fire, but they tightened up considerably when he was pushing for speed. :confused: One dude was fumbling quite a bit - I would go so far as to label him "that guy," except he was 69 years old and suffering from various orthopedic issues. There was another guy, a 72-year-old, who didn't fumble at all, though he didn't get into and out of positions with quite the spring that the 26-year-old forest ranger fire-fighter did...but I tell you what, I'd pick that 72-year-old for my side in a gun fight over most - he was quick and accurate and consistent, once he was in position...and he was shooting a 30-06 just to make us younguns feel like girly men.
I took the class with my Remington 700 LTR in 308Win. I put a third (fourth, actually) hole in the stock for a ching sling. The stud stripped that hole, though, so I ran the second half of the second day with a piece of leather hanging from what was now a carry strap instead of a shooting sling. The morning of the third day, the owner at Southern Exposure helped me with some Bubba Gunsmithing and that stud is in there to stay now. :)
Other rifles varied. There were 8 people in the class, let's see if I can remember their guns: there was one other R700, 4 Model 70's, (including an authentic pre-64 in 30-06,) a Savage in 223, and a Ruger Scout. Man, on the first day that Scout looked good with it's magazine - the rest of line had top-loaders. By the end of Day 1, though, it was obvious that magazines make for quick reloads as long as you have topped-up mags. We had a lot of 50-round sessions of fast-and-furious carbine-type drills, and the top-loaders had a much easier time getting ready for the next drill - once the Scout ran dry, the shooter had to sling his rifle to top up mags before he could come back online. Eye-opening, though obviously the mag has the edge for a single long drill...
Day 1 started out as it should - with the Safety Speech. Southern Exposure actually has the Four Rules engraved in stone and put on a pedestal. After that we went to the 50yd line to get rough zero's and for Randy to see where everyone's skill was at. No one had One Ragged Hole, but you could immediately see who had done this before. (I was not in that category...) We spent a while prone (no sling) getting the lecture about natural point of aim, and practicing it. Five rounds at a time, and we'd review and tape targets between strings. I learned a lot about taking it slow, and not settling for "good enough" NPA. After a while, Randy went through the other positions: various forms of sitting, squatting, braced kneel, and off-hand. We shot a few groups with each position, Randy coaching all the time.
Then we started doing "carbine" drills. At distances from 7-25yd, we'd line up and Randy would call them out. "Two to the head!" "Failure drill!" "Body, head, body, body!" Randy usually left enough time between the drills for us to top off our top-loaders and replace what we'd shot...but sometimes we'd be in the middle of reloading when "One to the head!" and we'd close the bolt, fire the shot, and top off again, trying to remember if we had 2 or 3 rounds to go before we were full. We also did some shooting on the move. Extremely fun, and educational - there was a lot of gun manipulation in the class. Everything you'd do during a hunt or whatever, you got a lot of practice loading, unloading, reloading, slinging, unslinging, making it safe, making it hot, carrying it around. At least for me, I was really glad to have all those reps under Randy's watchful eye.
Day 2 started out with more prone zeroing at 100yd. Randy then introduced the Ching sling. A couple of folks - the 72-year-old guy and the guy with the Savage 223, had carry straps which, according to Randy, can't really be used to help your shooting at all. The guy with the Scout had a Safari Ching sling. The rest of us had regular Ching slings made by Andy Langlois - though mine seemed to be made of leather that was much less finished than everyone else's, where everyone's sling was stiff and didn't stretch at all, mine was floppy and stretched a little bit. I'm not sure which one I prefer, actually...
Anyway, we shot at 100, prone without sling, then we learned to use the Ching sling. Then we went through all the positions, using the sling. (Well, no sling for off-hand.) We also did some more carbine drills, including a scramble drill where we took one shot at steel from prone at one location, ran to another location and took a shot from sitting, etc. For time. Fun! :D Randy also taught us various carry positions, and ran a demo to show how fast you can get off an aimed shot from African carry. We also did a night shoot. We laid prone as the sun set so we could see how our scopes would do as the light got dimmer. Randy then taught us some flashlight techniques after dark, and we did some of that. We also got to see who's powder was flashiest, and how well the flash hider worked on that Ruger Scout. Just to lay to rest any questions you may have about my maturity level, I'll say it: this portion of the class was quite illuminating.
Day 3 started out at 200yd. (Actually, we may have gone to 200 on day 2, I can't remember.) Anyway, when we went to 200, the Ching sling really made the difference. Randy explained a little about using support, and we shot off our packs or bunched up our mats to make supports or whatever. We explored positions at 200 for a while, then we learned various ways to "dump" the rifle and transition to pistol. Then we did some more "carbine" drills at 25yd to warm up for more advanced drills, including Rolling Thunder and other synchronized shooting stuff. We closed the class with an explanation of how to clean the rifle.
............
Again, I'm sure I missed a bunch of stuff, but hopefully this gets the picture across. Randy has an infectious passion for this kind of riflemanship, and I'm more excited now about getting competent with a bolt gun than I ever was before. In fact, I've decided to dedicate the LTR for longer-range precision rifle stuff, and acquire myself a rifle more suited to the kind of practical manipulations that this class really explored. The LTR did fine, but my scope got in the way of reloads and bolt work, there was unnecessary weight on there, and the stock seems to be designed more for use with a bipod than for assuming random positions in the field. So...I've got a Model 70 Featherweight inbound, along with a Vortex Razor HD 1-5x24. Hopefully this will make for a much "handier" package than my LTR. I'm not sure about that, but I'm very sure about this: Randy's PR class is going to cost me a whole lot of money in the months and years ahead.
Argus
11-14-2012, 06:59 PM
Nice AAR. Precision rifle is something I frequently toy with getting more serious about (I also have an LTR in .308), but then money keeps getting in the way. Speaking of which, what kind of glass have you got on your LTR?
Thanks for the AAR. Where AR type rifles not "allowed"? Was there any discussion around an AR pattern carbine in something like the 6.8SPC which might be a package that runs away with the single most versatile option ie defense through hunting big game (thinking of Cooper's 400 lb threshold).
Were there any "scout scopes" in use? A friend of mine who attended one of these told me those were the first to fold in the fading light shooting.
Thanks again!
I have taken this class with Randy and it is highly recommended.
Randy's rationale for the bolt and lever gun, is that they are the last rifles to be outlawed. His class is about teaching you to run the bolt/lever at a high level.
When I did the class, doing the last light drill, the Aimpoint/Scout scope were the first to fail in low light, with the low powered, 30mm high quality variables best.
Randy loves model 70 bolts, and I used a model 70 .308 and a CZ 7.62x39 with an Aimpoint.
[...] money keeps getting in the way. Speaking of which, what kind of glass have you got on your LTR?
The LTR has a NF 2.5-10x42 NXS Compact on it. After that, and the new stuff on the way, I'll have no money to get in the way of anything. What I learned about the LTR and the NF during this class, is that LTR isn't terribly "Light," and the scope isn't terribly "Compact." It's better than a bench-rest rifle, but it's not what I would want to hump in the mountains. That's why I ordered the new stuff.
Thanks for the AAR. Where AR type rifles not "allowed"? Was there any discussion around an AR pattern carbine [...] Were there any "scout scopes" in use? A friend of mine who attended one of these told me those were the first to fold in the fading light shooting.
I don't know if they weren't "allowed," but the class was built around a bolt gun. I think a student with a semi-auto of any kind would have slowed down the class while Randy took time to address that. The only mention of semi-autos was in relation to a "fighting gun" and how a bolt gun could be effective in that role. To (mis)quote something Randy said in class: "if they were going to drop me off in Mogadishu, I'd want an AR of some kind and as many mags as I could carry. But if they dropped me off with a bolt gun, I know I'd put up a hell of a fight." His concept is that, if you learn to really run a bolt gun, there's a very small set of circumstances where you'd survive with an AR but die with a bolt gun...
As for scout scopes, there was one, on the Ruger Scout. The rest of us had more standard variable optics of various makes and models. No Aimpoints or anything. The Scout was out early, my NF held in there, especially with the illuminated reticle. (Though I was fiddling around with the brightness setting when Randy called "Fire!" I rushed the shot and couldn't guarantee that I'd hit, so I bowed out well before the scope got dim on me...)
Randy's rationale for the bolt and lever gun, is that they are the last rifles to be outlawed. His class is about teaching you to run the bolt/lever at a high level.
The politics is there...but I think most of it is that there's just a lot of passion there for taking a plain-Jane "Bubba's Deer Gun" and being able to keep up with the Carbine Kiddies. ;)
Shawn.L
11-14-2012, 08:33 PM
I have taken this class with Randy and it is highly recommended.
Randy's rationale for the bolt and lever gun, is that they are the last rifles to be outlawed. His class is about teaching you to run the bolt/lever at a high level.
When I did the class, doing the last light drill, the Aimpoint/Scout scope were the first to fail in low light, with the low powered, 30mm high quality variables best.
Randy loves model 70 bolts, and I used a model 70 .308 and a CZ 7.62x39 with an Aimpoint.
I respect Randy deeply, and have taken several pistol courses from him over the years but this just sounds like an absurd excuse to train with a bolt gun. Over breakfast a few years back before Handgun II he was talking about scheduling "practical rifle" and I scoffed "I guess all my rifles are impractical then!"
on that note, does anyone who has taken this class who has also taken more modern carbine instruction found they got anything useful from this that helps with carbine work, or otherwise you wouldnt have gotten just taking a carbine course ? Or was there anyone wanting to train with a bolt gun for some other reason than "black guns may be outlawed some day" ?
I respect Randy deeply, and have taken several pistol courses from him over the years but this just sounds like an absurd excuse to train with a bolt gun. Over breakfast a few years back before Handgun II he was talking about scheduling "practical rifle" and I scoffed "I guess all my rifles are impractical then!"
on that note, does anyone who has taken this class who has also taken more modern carbine instruction found they got anything useful from this that helps with carbine work, or otherwise you wouldnt have gotten just taking a carbine course ? Or was there anyone wanting to train with a bolt gun for some other reason than "black guns may be outlawed some day" ?
Shawn, on October 23rd of last month, I saved my life using the skills I learned at Randy's class, at Gunsite, and from an adult life of shooting practical bolt and lever guns, when a brown bear charged me on Kodiak Island while out deer hunting, and I stopped the charge at 15 yards with my .375 H&H bolt gun.
1162
Shawn, on October 23rd of last month, I saved my life using the skills I learned at Randy's class, at Gunsite, and from an adult life of shooting practical bolt and lever guns, when a brown bear charged me on Kodiak Island while out deer hunting, and I stopped the charge at 15 yards with my .375 H&H bolt gun.
1162
Wow if that isn't a good endorsement!
Where was the hit on the bear? How many rounds?
Cookie Monster
11-14-2012, 10:44 PM
GJM,
Right the F on man. Congrats on the composure and skills. After that there is not a lot you can't do.
All I got is a lever action, it's not about the gun.
Cheers,
Cookie Monster
Shawn, on October 23rd of last month, I saved my life using the skills I learned at Randy's class, at Gunsite, and from an adult life of shooting practical bolt and lever guns, when a brown bear charged me on Kodiak Island while out deer hunting, and I stopped the charge at 15 yards with my .375 H&H bolt gun.
Irv and Randy talked about that during dinner. At first, it hit me like a good story. I thought, "Good work!" After letting it sink in for a while, it's extremely sobering. (That's still good work, though...:eek:)
Wow if that isn't a good endorsement!
Where was the hit on the bear? How many rounds?
I had the crosshairs on the bear's brain, but because of the combination of the close distance, the relatively large caliber and the consequences of missing the brain that close with a bolt action, moved to the chest at the last instant. The one shot fired stopped the charge and was fatal to the bear.
I was convinced the bear would ultimately turn, and waited to the last possible moment to shoot, as for moral and practical reasons, I didn't want to injure a bear while on a deer hunt.
I had the crosshairs on the bear's brain, but because of the combination of the close distance, the relatively large caliber and the consequences of missing the brain that close with a bolt action, moved to the chest at the last instant. The one shot fired stopped the charge and was fatal to the bear.
I was convinced the bear would ultimately turn, and waited to the last possible moment to shoot, as for moral and practical reasons, I didn't want to injure a bear while on a deer hunt.
Off topic but that is why I think the G20 makes so much more sense than heavy kicking revolvers as backup in this role. With any reasonable handgun the power to be sure of a body hit take down is just too sketchy. I've seen an AK hunter who was mauled and survived write that when you're down to a handgun it's a brain pan thing.
That's a pretty neat notch to have. Not that you wanted it considering all the hassles that must have ensued. But that's a pretty small club. ;)
Shawn.L
11-15-2012, 12:49 PM
GJM, that is amazing. Glad you prevailed.
To my point though, being a hunter, being someone who may be roaming the wilderness with a bolt gun would be a strong reason to take a course using that gun.
NickA
11-15-2012, 12:52 PM
GJM: he doesn't always shoot bears, but when he does, he prefers 375 Dos H's, and some drama :D
At 15 yards and closing I'll bet it looked at big as a school bus.
It may be more involved than suitable for this thread, but I am not certain whether the semi-auto or revolver is preferable. Revolvers shooting hard cast bullets penetrate better, semi-auto pistols have more capacity and may be easier to shoot fast. If you can only stop the bear with a bullet that penetrates the skull, I would take the revolver with hard cast loads. If the bear turns at any credible shot, that hurts the bear, and you may have non bear uses for the handgun, the semi-auto gets the edge. Confounding, is that the semi-auto loads best for penetrating (heavy and fast) seem to be further out the reliability envelope of a semi-auto.
Yes, bears look big, regardless of their actual size. This bear was a female between six and seven feet, but the effect would have been the same regardless of whether the bear was five or ten feet tall.
As to who might benefit from Randy's practical rifle course, I believe all if us would benefit from an exposure to the capability of bolt and lever guns, just as semi-auto shooters benefit from exposure to a revolver. At an early NTI, held at Gunsite, one stage had a pick-up lever gun, that had to be loaded and deployed on multiple targets. Obviously the stage designers felt that a relevant skill. Regardless of locale, bolt and lever guns tend to be legal -- something that can not be said about semi-auto black rifles. For most areas I recreate, I would far prefer a bolt or lever gun to an AR.
I can't help but recall this quote from "The Edge" with Anthony Hopkins and Alec Baldwin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ALOI63X_CE
"What one man can do another can do. Say it: I will kill the bear!"
rob_s
11-25-2012, 12:22 PM
Seems appropriate to clear up a few things...
This is not a precision/sniper/whatever class. It's a practical rifle class. It's easy to see where the confusion comes from as so few think of a bolt-action rifle as anything other than something to use for nappy-time shooting, but it's not, and doesn't have to be. Randy defines "practical" in the course and I didn't get it written down well enough to quote him.
No, semi-autos would not be appropriate and would not be allowed. This is a class to learn to run a lightweight, compact, bolt-action rifle for practical applications. It is up to the student/shooter to figure out if they have that application or if they have anything to gain from that. Personally, I think chasing a .025 second faster FAST is beyond a point of diminishing returns and have taken an interest in being a little more well-rounded. I don't own a stick-shift or a motorcycle anymore but I can drive both if I had to. Same reason I spent an entire year taking classes and shooting matches with an AK.
I took the class that I wrote about because I wanted another reason to train with Randy, because I ALWAYS learn something from shooting with Randy, and because I wanted something that would force me to slow down and revisit the marksmanship aspect of shooting. It's the same reason I took his carbine class with an iron-sighted AR the year before, which I also wrote about. Going and taking one more carbine course where we barely kiss 100 yards with my RDS and whiz-bang, or worse with new-hotness, isn't getting me (or probably most of you either) anywhere. I learn from challenges.
If you don't believe that the wooden guns will be the last to be taken away, or don't believe that applies to you for whatever reason, that's ok. I frankly think that Randy came up with that rationale simply to appease the people that can only train if they think they have a tactical reason for doing so, and this might give those folks a reason.
There is a history of combat shooting that is being lost. Randy is one of the few ties we have back to that history. Some think that's important, some don't. Folks that never touched a gun in their life, joined the military, and everything since springs from what they learned there may well have a lot to offer, but some also prefer to know where we all came from so that when some new guy on the scene tries to give us his brand new technique we can know that a bunch of old guys out in the desert tried those things and put them on a shelf as unsat before some of the guys pushing newfangled were born. I enjoy training with guys like Randy, Awebuck, and Jeans as much because I always learn something about shooting even if I don't still employ all of their techniques, but also because those guys have a depth of knowledge that is becoming rarer and rarer in an industry full of dogma preached by folks that don't even realize they are victims of said dogma.
Rob, I've read somewhere (I can't remember if it was here or on another forum) that you have found the M70 Featherweight Compact to be too small for you and that you'd probably go with the regular sized Featherweight if you were to do it again. What exactly was the problem? LOP?
Also, do any of you guys know if Randy takes his Practical Rifle course on the road? I was wondering if I could get him to come to Albuquerque next year.
Tom, Randy does teach that course in locations other than Lakeland. He's teaching it at the end of May in Casper, WY. Probably best to reach out to him directly to discuss the possibility of additional classes in other locales. This is his email address, from his website: RandyCain@centerfire.net
I took PR several years ago in Lakeland, and enjoyed it immensely, despite having to fight my rifle for parts of the course. I've taken nearly every course Randy offers, some as many as four times, and Practical Rifle ranks among my very favorites - valuable and fun.
All will enjoy this course and develop a greater appreciation for what a practical bolt rifle can do.
I can save everyone a lot of fussing with gear -- get or borrow a controlled feed, model 70 .308 featherweight or equivalent, add a Leupold 1.5-5 or similar scope, cut the LOP to between 13.0-13.25, add a middle sling stud, get a Langlois Ching sling, and start practicing!
I think it would be fine for the course, especially since the focus is the software, shooting -- running and reloading the bolt. Same logic, if I had a bolt in .270 or .06, or a similar non-magnum caliber, I would't hesitate to bring it as opposed to buying something special just for the course.
If I was building the "ideal" short to medium range practical .308 bolt, I would go with a Nightforce 1-4 with the FC-2 reticle and a zero stop, since it gives you 30mm light transmission and field of view, illumination when desired, a fast reticle, 1X power close capability, and the ability to dial dope for longer shots. I have been discussing with SLG putting a NF 2.5-10, with the NP-R2 reticle on my practical .308 for the ability to shoot at longer distances.
I would go with a Nightforce 1-4 with the FC-2 reticle and a zero stopFor me, if it's going to be a "practical" rifle, I want the ability to holdover. I'm not keen on using the FC2 with holdovers.
orionz06
11-28-2012, 10:09 AM
GJM, in your opinion, would a slight higher magnification scope, say 2-7x, work or would that be a problem?
I'd be interested in a blanket "buy this and this" suggestion for a lower 48 gun for most game but also fitting the role of a gun shot for fun (small groups).
JV, please elaborate. The bottom of the circle is 10 moa, assuming you don't want to dial the turret. You probably have seen this, but this is a nice explanation of the various NF reticle options:
http://www.eurooptic.com/nightforce-scope-reticles.aspx#Nightforce-NP-R2-Reticle
TK, if i wanted a recommendation for two rifle choices, it would be either a pre-64 model 70 featherweight in .308, or a classic model 70, stainless synthetic in .308. Same LOP, scope and sling considerations as outlined above.
The pre-64 will be smooth as silk, and generally a good shooter, although it is an .06 sized action with a block, since Winchester didn't make pre-64 short actions. The advantage of the classic, is a .308 length action and offers the weather resistance of stainless synthetic.
JV, please elaborate. The bottom of the circle is 10 moa, assuming you don't want to dial the turret. You probably have seen this, but this is a nice explanation of the various NF reticle options:
http://www.eurooptic.com/nightforce-scope-reticles.aspx#Nightforce-NP-R2-Reticle
Yes, I've seen that. Thanks. I have an FC2 NF1-4 and a few other NF scopes, but they are all MLR/MRad scopes. I just prefer somewhat more defined marks for holdovers, especially for wind adjustments. If I had to do it over, I would have purchased a MilDot 1-4.
JV, I prefer holdover in my hunting scopes, in case I don't have time to mess with the elevation knob, but was trying to keep the uncluttered FC-2 reticle for close stuff. I understand your comment now.
I have been discussing with SLG putting a NF 2.5-10, with the NP-R2 reticle on my practical .308 for the ability to shoot at longer distances.
I'd be interested in hearing what you (and others!) consider a realistic maximum range for a practical rifle. In my ignorance, I've been thinking that I definitely want confidence out to at least 400, maybe as much as 600 on larger game.
The furthest I have shot is 700 yards, and that just on paper, so I defer to SLG and others with longer range experience.
If shooting paper/steel, I am all for shooting as long as I can see. Hunting is a whole different scenario. My personal limit is 400 yards on an uninjured animal, and while I have harvested a number of animals in the 400 yard range, that is highly dependent on wind. While I am comfortable with bullet drop, I am not comfortable with wind correction -- especially in a mountainous area, where wind can gust and vary so much. Obviously on a wounded animal, all bets are off, and you do want you have to do.
The furthest I have shot is 700 yards, and that just on paper, so I defer to SLG and others with longer range experience.
If shooting paper/steel, I am all for shooting as long as I can see. Hunting is a whole different scenario. My personal limit is 400 yards on an uninjured animal, and while I have harvested a number of animals in the 400 yard range, that is highly dependent on wind. While I am comfortable with bullet drop, I am not comfortable with wind correction -- especially in a mountainous area, where wind can gust and vary so much. Obviously on a wounded animal, all bets are off, and you do want you have to do.
Makes sense - and to clarify, by "confidence at 400" I meant confidence to make a humane kill, or at least to judge that my position isn't stable enough, or visibility's too low. First I need to develop a sense of my own abilities. The 200yd shoot at Randy's class is the furthest I've ever shot, but even with that little experience I'd feel confident about a shot that close, assuming the same gun and ammo, and I think confidence at 200 is plenty for most hunting purposes. I just zeroed my Win70 yesterday, and I'm thinking about taking a day off work soon to make the pilgrimage to Manatee Gun Club (http://www.manateegunclub.com/), the only public 1,000yd range in the state, to spend an afternoon finding my limits with both rifles from various positions.
But long-range precision isn't what Randy's class is about, and I'm looking for ways to exercise the core concepts of that class. Not sure how to do that... maybe run a 3-gun match with a bolt gun? :cool:
Dave J
11-29-2012, 12:17 PM
WRT the long range stuff, be aware that shooting on KD ranges only can give you an overly optimistic view of your an capabilities IMHO. When you start reaching out, small errors in range estimation have an increasingly significant effect on POI, and the KD range, by virtue of being KD, doesn't teach this very well.
You probably knew that already, but I figured I'd throw it out there just in case.
Another tip, if the range will let you, consider using a mountain bike to go check/paste targets, if they're not set up for vehicles. It saves a lot of time compared to walking/jogging, so you get a whole lot more shooting in.
Have fun - it's been awhile since I've been able to shoot any long distance stuff, so I'm already jealous.
Makes sense - and to clarify, by "confidence at 400" I meant confidence to make a humane kill, or at least to judge that my position isn't stable enough, or visibility's too low. First I need to develop a sense of my own abilities. The 200yd shoot at Randy's class is the furthest I've ever shot, but even with that little experience I'd feel confident about a shot that close, assuming the same gun and ammo, and I think confidence at 200 is plenty for most hunting purposes. I just zeroed my Win70 yesterday, and I'm thinking about taking a day off work soon to make the pilgrimage to Manatee Gun Club (http://www.manateegunclub.com/), the only public 1,000yd range in the state, to spend an afternoon finding my limits with both rifles from various positions.
But long-range precision isn't what Randy's class is about, and I'm looking for ways to exercise the core concepts of that class. Not sure how to do that... maybe run a 3-gun match with a bolt gun? :cool:
200 is more than enough back east, but out west or on the tundra, 400 opens up more opportunities on a calm day. Repeat after me -- slung, prone!!
Chuck Haggard
12-03-2012, 08:53 AM
All will enjoy this course and develop a greater appreciation for what a practical bolt rifle can do.
I can save everyone a lot of fussing with gear -- get or borrow a controlled feed, model 70 .308 featherweight or equivalent, add a Leupold 1.5-5 or similar scope, cut the LOP to between 13.0-13.25, add a middle sling stud, get a Langlois Ching sling, and start practicing!
I am assuming that this is due to the guns standing up to being shot more than your normal deer gun?
I have a couple of Savage rifles, one a Scout, which have given good deer hunting service, but I am told they tend to fall apart when run hard at such classes.
Any feedback on that?
I have an interest in having a deer rifle I can take to a fight if need be. I hunt in an area where we have had Mex Mafie dope grows, meth cooks, gang bangers doing a test fire, ect. I prefer to take a gun to the woods that I can fight with if need be. (Tough to do with with my muzzle loader, but I tend to have a Glock 17 and three mags on me at all times, so the plan is to disappear in the cloud of ninja smoke when the .50 goes off)
I'm seriously thinking about a .300BLK or 6.8 AR, but I just like .308 bolt guns for deer hunting.
Other topic;
Even though I am in KS, the vast majority of my deer have been shot at less than 50 yards. Longest so far was 175, and that was rather abnormal.
I have attended a US Army sniper course, I am comfortable with long range shooting, at bad guys. I think we do a terrible disservice to the animals shooting past 300, maybe 400 yards.
Just because we can doesn't mean we should.
I don't think it is so much that other brands are so bad, but rather that the model 70 is so good. If you are actually going to get a new rifle, you might as well buy or build on a model 70 as they excel as hunting and hard use rifles.
Like with pistols, shooting a bolt is mostly a software issue, and I have no doubt that a skilled person with a most any brand would do just fine. I have never owned a Savage, or been around them enough to comment, although they seem to have a following. That said, I think their appeal is as a complete rifle, as opposed to using the Savage action to build a custom rifle on.
I think the beauty of the 6.8 or .300 BLK is it allows you to hunt with an AR. Otherwise I would never chamber a bolt rifle in these calibers, as they are about 75-80 % of a .243, which in itself seems marginal for an out west rifle.
I think most hunters prefer to shoot inside 200 yards, although wind and the shooting position can make 200 yards seem either very close or just too far! Hunting mule deer and elk out west, and caribou, moose and sheep in Alaska, I have had to choose between shooting at 300-400 or not being able to shoot at all. On a light wind day, using a flat shooting cartridge like .270 WSM or Weatherby, from a slung, prone position, I will shoot to 400 yards.
For shooting to 250 yards, a sleeper of a little deer rifle, which also makes a formidable defensive rifle, is the small CZ action in 7.62x39, which can also be rechambered in 6.5 Grendel. It uses well made detachable magazines, is accurate and has a great trigger.
NickA
12-04-2012, 10:32 AM
For shooting to 250 yards, a sleeper of a little deer rifle, which also makes a formidable defensive rifle, is the small CZ action in 7.62x39, which can also be rechambered in 6.5 Grendel. It uses well made detachable magazines, is accurate and has a great trigger.
That looks like a very cool rifle, especially for someone like me, who doesn't really "need" one but would like a good general purpose gun for occasional hog or deer hunting, paper punching, zombie apocalypse and whatnot. Short, light, cheap to feed and reportedly accurate, especially with the single set trigger. Not exactly cheap, but still very interesting.
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John Hearne
12-04-2012, 03:15 PM
I have a couple of Savage rifles, one a Scout, which have given good deer hunting service, but I am told they tend to fall apart when run hard at such classes.
Any feedback on that?
The original Savage Scout broke bolt stops or some other similar piece when first introduced. The part was upgraded to the version from their magnum rifles and as far as I know, the problems disappeared. This is fairly old news so I don't know if something else has popped up.
Chuck Haggard
12-04-2012, 07:09 PM
Thanks John. I'll have to do some more research and see what else I can find out.
vaspence
12-05-2012, 03:47 PM
How well did the flash suppressor on the Ruger GS work? Or did it work at all?
Thanks for a great AAR!
Spence
It worked phenomenally. During the night shoot, that Ruger was friggin' invisible...especially compared to the giant blinding mushroom cloud of fire from my naked 20" barrel! :eek:
ETA: I don't have much experience with night shooting, especially rifles, so I don't have other suppressors to compare against. I'm comparing against naked muzzles only. Maybe someone else can speak to whether the GS's cage is better/worse than others...
iakdrago
12-06-2012, 10:15 AM
It worked phenomenally. During the night shoot, that Ruger was friggin' invisible...especially compared to the giant blinding mushroom cloud of fire from my naked 20" barrel! :eek:
ETA: I don't have much experience with night shooting, especially rifles, so I don't have other suppressors to compare against. I'm comparing against naked muzzles only. Maybe someone else can speak to whether the GS's cage is better/worse than others...
I hate to steer this thread towards the hardware issue, but i'm in search of a new rifle. I'm leaning towards the FN PBR XP. Which is basically a M70 action, in a fully bedded stock with a 20 inch fluted barrel. It weighs ~9 lbs. Being a 20 inch rifle as opposed to a 26 inch rifle, i would think that the weight would be less of an issue--as it is more compact and balanced better. For the purposes of the class described, how do you think that setup would preform? Would weight be that much of a problem, given the rifles overall better balance (less weight forward).
secondstoryguy
12-06-2012, 01:27 PM
I hate to steer this thread towards the hardware issue, but i'm in search of a new rifle. I'm leaning towards the FN PBR XP. Which is basically a M70 action, in a fully bedded stock with a 20 inch fluted barrel. It weighs ~9 lbs. Being a 20 inch rifle as opposed to a 26 inch rifle, i would think that the weight would be less of an issue--as it is more compact and balanced better. For the purposes of the class described, how do you think that setup would preform? Would weight be that much of a problem, given the rifles overall better balance (less weight forward).
I think the FN PBR XP is pushfeed but I may be wrong. Anything with a heavy barrel is going to weight a little much with glass/mounts/sling. You'd be better served finding a 90s vintage Winchester 70 featherwieght with a pre-64 type controlled feed action. With glass and sling these weigh in at around 8lbs, a weight I've found to be a good balance of managing recoil and packing around. If you want to get crazy you could get the barrel chopped to 20", have iron sights installed and put on an aftermarket stock but they don't need much else.
You'd be surprised what you can do with a lighter non-tactical rifle. I've taken many deer/hogs/elk at 200-400 yards with mine, many shots from slung/sitting(prone rarely happens in the woods). With a 10X scope you can fairly easily hit a man sized target out to 800+.
Here's my "practical rifle". It's a lot more beat up now as this pic was taken just after I put it together. I built this from a Winchester 90s vintage stainless model 70:http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh201/secondstoryguy/MISC2010002.jpg
I agree, and 9 pounds for the base rifle in .308 is way too much for me to enjoy hunting with or carrying in the hills. My .375 is under 8 pounds with scope and sling, and I wish it were a half pound lighter. I have yet to have a model 70 I found too light, but have had a number that I had to put on a diet.
I think the FN PBR XP is pushfeed but I may be wrong. Anything with a heavy barrel is going to weight a little much with glass/mounts/sling. You'd be better served finding a 90s vintage Winchester 70 featherwieght with a pre-64 type controlled feed action. With glass and sling these weigh in at around 8lbs, a weight I've found to be a good balance of managing recoil and packing around. If you want to get crazy you could get the barrel chopped to 20", have iron sights installed and put on an aftermarket stock but they don't need much else.
You'd be surprised what you can do with a lighter non-tactical rifle. I've taken many deer/hogs/elk at 200-400 yards with mine, many shots from slung/sitting(prone rarely happens in the woods). With a 10X scope you can fairly easily hit a man sized target out to 800+.
Here's my "practical rifle". It's a lot more beat up now as this pic was taken just after I put it together. I built this from a Winchester 90s vintage stainless model 70:http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh201/secondstoryguy/MISC2010002.jpg
Drop dead gorgeous.
NickA
12-06-2012, 03:52 PM
Drop dead gorgeous.
Yup, you guys are pushing me closer to falling down the long gun rabbit hole.
Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
Yup, you guys are pushing me closer to falling down the long gun rabbit hole.
Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
Yeah me too. I now have a couple high qual ARs and a Marlin .44. Bolt guns just never really hooked me. A couple friends have these mountain rifle light weights they can't even enjoy on the range for the recoil and the thin barrel grouping like squat as they try to spend a morning target shooting (so much heat and barrel whip we surmise). But these "practical rifles" are pretty sharp.
I hate to steer this thread towards the hardware issue, but i'm in search of a new rifle. I'm leaning towards the FN PBR XP. Which is basically a M70 action, in a fully bedded stock with a 20 inch fluted barrel. It weighs ~9 lbs. Being a 20 inch rifle as opposed to a 26 inch rifle, i would think that the weight would be less of an issue--as it is more compact and balanced better. For the purposes of the class described, how do you think that setup would preform? Would weight be that much of a problem, given the rifles overall better balance (less weight forward).
Lots of good info on that gun at the Art of the Rifle blog. This post (http://artoftherifle.blogspot.com/2012/10/controlled-round-feed-cutting-through.html) is especially interesting, I thought, about the M70 action.
For Randy's class, I ran a R700 LTR, which I think is a similar gun to the PBR with all the normal differences between a M70 and a R700. I ran through the class fine, but I wished for a lighter rifle the whole time. My buddy's M70 Featherweight was perfect, and that's why I now own one of those. I'm just a n00b, though. From reading and discussing with folks who know more than I, it seems that the more time folks spend with rifles in the hunting field, the more they value saving every ounce they can...
SeriousStudent
12-08-2012, 04:49 PM
I have been giving a great deal of thought to a Winchester Model 70 Featherweight in 7mm-08 as well. Those photos of the Nightforce scopes are also most intriguing.
Why 7mm-08, when there are so many great loads and bullets for the .308?
.308 is my standard short action caliber, but right now Jim Brockman is building me a .260 Remington on a short action model 70 to use sheep hunting.
Why 7mm-08, when there are so many great loads and bullets for the .308?I'd take a 7-08 over a .308.
High BC bullet selection is MUCH better in 7mm.
I'd take a 7-08 over a .308.
High BC bullet selection is MUCH better in 7mm.
Perhaps as a reloader. Since I gave up loading some years back, just in my garage I must have 20 different .308 loadings, from military surplus ball, to soft point hunting loads, match and the Barnes X bullet loads. Most shops I frequent are good to have one load in 7-08!
.260 Remington isn't much better, but I think the 6.5 bullet is a first tier sheep load, and I have a supply of the 120 Barnes bullet load.
secondstoryguy
12-08-2012, 11:50 PM
.260 is a pretty slick caliber. It's got legs(great long range ballistics) and it's easy on the shoulder. The downside is ammo availability, expense, and the more limited projectile selection. The first two downsides aren't really a huge deal if you roll your own. 7-08 and 6.5X47 Lapua also work well. I prefer .308 due to availability.
Two years ago, I took a Kimber .260 to the Brooks Range sheep hunting, and this past August, a New Ultra Light Arms .260. Both are accurate, lightweight rifles, but I don't find their actions as robust as a model 70. I had a .243 model 70 in process from years back, and am putting a .260 barrel on -- hope it is my final/ultimate .260.
ST911
12-09-2012, 12:39 AM
I've developed a serious appreciation for the sport-utility bolt gun (SUB) / "practical rifle". Randy's course is becoming a priority on my training to-do list, due in part to the feedback from others like some herein. Whatever politics are at work in the future, my SUB is 50-state legal today, is never far away, and is likely to be the only one in my hands in the backcountry if I happen across the folks tpd mentions.
I settled on a 16" Ruger M77 Compact in .308, had a smith thread the barrel and attach a flash hider, and mounted a 4x Leupold scope. I chose .308 for its widespread availability, load/bullet options, and performance. I have shot it deliberately since I got it, and with much greater focus through 2012 particularly. I have also worked with an assortment of more standard barrel and stock lengths in other calibers and optic configurations to broaden the effort.
The practical rifle can be a formidable fighting gun. It's the only long gun in some households, is universal in concept, is found worldwide, and deserves contemplation from those aspiring to be a practitioner of defensive guncraft.
I have noticed that other aspects of my long gun shooting, including gunfighting with AR-types is enhanced by my work with the SUB, and isn't diverted energy or resources as some opine.
SeriousStudent
12-09-2012, 01:40 AM
Why 7mm-08, when there are so many great loads and bullets for the .308?
.308 is my standard short action caliber, but right now Jim Brockman is building me a .260 Remington on a short action model 70 to use sheep hunting.
JV's answer is 80 percent of the reason, Skintop911 nailed the remaining 20 percent.
I do already have a decent .308 bolt gun, that started life as a Remington 700 AAC-SD. It's in .308, and I bought it for the reasons you mentioned.
But I am an old fellow, and prefer something light and handy, for all the reasons Skintop911 pointed out. For the uses I envision, it's a light-weight tackdriver, that I can carry farther.
When I walk these days, I like lighter things. I used to carry a .30 caliber when I walked, but that was a while back. It had Saco Defense, rather than Remington on the receiver.
Light is nice. :)
And please, please show us pictures of that .260 when you get it done! I would love to see it, and bet it will be a beauty.
I have always said, you don't need a good excuse to build another hunting rifle! Just as anything in North America can be harvested with an .06, it sure is fun to mess with high quality, custom bolt guns.
As you probably know, Jeff Cooper recommended the 7-08 caliber in locales were the .308 was prohibited as a military cartridge.
These are some pictures of a practical .308 I am just finishing with Jim Brockman. Sorry about the bright Aimpoint, just trying it on for fit. The Pic rail is also going away to save weight and remove sharp edges.
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/GeorgePracticalRifle002.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/GeorgePracticalRifle004.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/GeorgePracticalRifle005.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/GeorgePracticalRifle006.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/GeorgePracticalRifle007.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/GeorgePracticalRifle010.jpg
SeriousStudent
12-09-2012, 10:12 AM
Very interesting. I like the color and rail sections on that stock. Very practical, too.
Can you tell us a little more about the magazine system and rear peep sight, when you have an opportunity? Thanks for the photos, they definitely give me some ideas on what I wish to do.
I've developed a serious appreciation for the sport-utility bolt gun (SUB) / "practical rifle". Randy's course is becoming a priority on my training to-do list, due in part to the feedback from others like some herein. Whatever politics are at work in the future, my SUB is 50-state legal today, is never far away, and is likely to be the only one in my hands in the backcountry if I happen across the folks tpd mentions.
I settled on a 16" Ruger M77 Compact in .308, had a smith thread the barrel and attach a flash hider, and mounted a 4x Leupold scope. I chose .308 for its widespread availability, load/bullet options, and performance. I have shot it deliberately since I got it, and with much greater focus through 2012 particularly. I have also worked with an assortment of more standard barrel and stock lengths in other calibers and optic configurations to broaden the effort.
The practical rifle can be a formidable fighting gun. It's the only long gun in some households, is universal in concept, is found worldwide, and deserves contemplation from those aspiring to be a practitioner of defensive guncraft.
I have noticed that other aspects of my long gun shooting, including gunfighting with AR-types is enhanced by my work with the SUB, and isn't diverted energy or resources as some opine.
Glad to see you posting here! Did you consider the Ruger Gunsite Scout or did you get into this before that model was available?
ST911
12-09-2012, 01:51 PM
Glad to see you posting here! Did you consider the Ruger Gunsite Scout or did you get into this before that model was available?
The GSR wasn't available when I picked up the M77. At the time, I was going back and forth between the Remington and Ruger youth/compact models. The Ruger came in a factory 16", which gave it a hearty nod, and leaving the flash hider the only smith work to do.
I may add a GSR to the locker, but one of my critters has his eye on a Rem 700 youth model in .243. I'll do a "practical rifle" setup on that for him, too.
Very interesting. I like the color and rail sections on that stock. Very practical, too.
Can you tell us a little more about the magazine system and rear peep sight, when you have an opportunity? Thanks for the photos, they definitely give me some ideas on what I wish to do.
Blind bottom magazine to save weight, holds 6 or 7 (can't remember and rifle is with Brockman) down rounds. Peep is Brockman's pop-up that sits below a scope and pops up when you remove the scope. Generally, I have used the Talley detachable one, that goes in a pouch on the sling, but am trying this. Tentatively planning a NF 2.5-10 scope with the NP-R2 reticle and one of SLG's slings.
I respect Randy deeply, and have taken several pistol courses from him over the years but this just sounds like an absurd excuse to train with a bolt gun. Over breakfast a few years back before Handgun II he was talking about scheduling "practical rifle" and I scoffed "I guess all my rifles are impractical then!"
on that note, does anyone who has taken this class who has also taken more modern carbine instruction found they got anything useful from this that helps with carbine work, or otherwise you wouldnt have gotten just taking a carbine course ? Or was there anyone wanting to train with a bolt gun for some other reason than "black guns may be outlawed some day" ?
A short .308, cut for stripper clips, isn't looking so far fetched.
Chuck Haggard
12-19-2012, 12:36 PM
While I am a huge fan of ARs as fighting guns, sometimes I think a reality check is in order for some folks (maybe not you guys...).
I am one of those guys who has looked at the "what bullet?" and "stopping power" info for many years. In the context of many defensive firearms those are valid areas of study.
Recently while deer hunting I was reminded, again, that rounds like .308s are "real" rifle rounds. One shot that I made was a bit botched. Large doe stepped at about 175 yards as I broke the shot. Missed the double lung shot that I always go for and hit high into the spine behind the shoulders.
She dropped on the shot like she was hit by a truck. Four inches of spine was just gone, raking shot from left to right/front to back, exit hole was easily 3X6" in an oval shape.
A close range shot in the classic double lung/heart shot area on another doe that was bigger than 250 pounds resulted in the heart and much of the lungs leaving the deer in a cloud of vapor through an exit wound 4-5" across.
Both of these were made with Wal Mart bought plain vanilla Federal classic .308 150gr SPs. Chosen because they are more than enough for deer and pigs, cheap, and shoot 2" all day long from my Savage.
I would humbly submit that if the guys responding to the North Hollywood fight had been armed with "practical" rilfes that there response may have been closer to two rounds than hundreds to get the job done.
Anybody who catches a .243 or bigger SP in the torso is having a very, very bad day.
While I am a huge fan of ARs as fighting guns, sometimes I think a reality check is in order for some folks (maybe not you guys...).
I am one of those guys who has looked at the "what bullet?" and "stopping power" info for many years. In the context of many defensive firearms those are valid areas of study.
Recently while deer hunting I was reminded, again, that rounds like .308s are "real" rifle rounds. One shot that I made was a bit botched. Large doe stepped at about 175 yards as I broke the shot. Missed the double lung shot that I always go for and hit high into the spine behind the shoulders.
She dropped on the shot like she was hit by a truck. Four inches of spine was just gone, raking shot from left to right/front to back, exit hole was easily 3X6" in an oval shape.
A close range shot in the classic double lung/heart shot area on another doe that was bigger than 250 pounds resulted in the heart and much of the lungs leaving the deer in a cloud of vapor through an exit wound 4-5" across.
Both of these were made with Wal Mart bought plain vanilla Federal classic .308 150gr SPs. Chosen because they are more than enough for deer and pigs, cheap, and shoot 2" all day long from my Savage.
I would humbly submit that if the guys responding to the North Hollywood fight had been armed with "practical" rilfes that there response may have been closer to two rounds than hundreds to get the job done.
Anybody who catches a .243 or bigger SP in the torso is having a very, very bad day.
A reality check is always in order for ME. ;)
Before I started hunting deer with my .223 I shot a couple with a .308 and these were the first deer I'd ever shot and first game I'd ever shot with a "high powered rifle" and I was absolutely stunned by the destruction. These also plain jane 150 grain SPs and used at less than 100 yards. Shoulders were hit too and the thousands of bone fragments everywhere was beyond my comprehension.
.30-30 was just a simple 1" borer of holes without nearly so much drama compared to the .308.
And btw I just saw one of my local LGS stocking this new Savage Hog Rifle and priced at $399. Seemed like a pretty good economy level "practical rifle" too albeit not a box magazine rifle. I spoke with a fellow at my club recently shooting one and he'd replaced the stock and had easily converted his Hog Rifle to a magazine fed (can't recall what kind of magazine though).
Chuck Haggard
12-19-2012, 01:06 PM
My Savage is a detachable box magazine type. Easy to convert the Savages from one to the other with a change in the stock, I'm pretty sure.
My Savage is a detachable box magazine type. Easy to convert the Savages from one to the other with a change in the stock, I'm pretty sure.
Yeah that was it! DUH.
NickA
12-19-2012, 02:07 PM
A short .308, cut for stripper clips, isn't looking so far fetched.
Yep. Given the recent developments and my total lack of center fire rifle ownership, it looks like I'll be checking out some bolt gun options, like the CZ mentioned above or a good 308.
Besides, for many of us (myself especially) the day-to-day reality of gun ownership is recreation. I think it's important to have fun at it, which in no way diminishes the larger reasons for gun ownership. And bolt guns are fun to manipulate - compared to bolt guns, ARs feel like cheating. If I was going to fight much, I'd want to cheat as much as possible, don't get me wrong! But for pure enjoyment, there's just a lot more going on when you try to run a bolt gun like in a fight, which (at least to me in my ignorance) makes for more challenge and enjoyable practice.
Chuck Haggard
12-19-2012, 02:39 PM
I think I noted above somewhere that I use my bolt guns nowadays strictly for fun, specifically hunting.
The issue is that I hunt in places where people may not be wanting me to have fun. If I'm fun-havin and run into a dope grow with someone on site, the fun is over.
Two of my guys were shot dead Sunday night on a simple "somebody looks to be smoking dope in that car" suspicious vehicle call. Just an example of how shit goes bad at a moments notice.
The "I'm deer hunting, oops, there is a bear that's people hunting" story in this thread is another example.
Sorry if I'm too serious on this subject right now, I've had a pretty serious week so far.
Sorry for your loss, and your seriousness is understood and appropriate.
While lots of folks think, listening to the debate, that there is a black and white difference between hunting rifles versus fighting rifles, history would inform them that bolt guns were fighting rifles for many years.
As you point out, and I experienced in October, just because "you" are hunting, doesn't mean someone else isn't also hunting, with "you" as their quarry. When I was elephant hunting in Zimbabwe during the violent run-up to an election there, I was never separated from either my .416 Rigby or .375 H&H. While those might not be the rifles I would choose to defend myself, I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a 300 or 400 grain soft point at 2,400-2,500 fps. I ran a .44 lever gun at TR's urban rifle, and only went to a magazine fed rifle on day 4, when my thumb got too sore from pushing cartridges into the loading gate. Again, the lever might not be my first choice, but I certainly would not feel unarmed with a 16 inch .44 lever stuffed full.
GJM, what 16" .44 lever gun would you recommend? Also, how would you set it up?
I have to throw in here if I may. I think it's all Marlin 1894. Much easier to upgrade sights IIRC. I have XS ghost ring set on mine. The dang things have gone really expensive though($500-$600 often). Marlin gurus seem to be very down on the current production since Remington took over Marlin. The 16" guns are not common and command a premium.
Cookie Monster
12-19-2012, 04:43 PM
+1 on the Marlin 1894. Find a pre-Remington as a previous poster mentioned. Got mine from Grizzly Custom.
Ran mine at Thunder Ranch in October, everyone else had AR's. Hard to keep up, though it was my first rifle experience. You got more steps to get done than an AR but it is better than a sharp stick.
Cookie Monster
GJM, what 16" .44 lever gun would you recommend? Also, how would you set it up?
Tom, I am not familiar with the post Remington quality, but based on comments here, I believe a later model, but pre-Remington one would be the way to go. My recollection is that Marlin changed something after I got mine, making the .44 shoot more accurately, which is why I say a later model.
The real question is whether you want a .44 or 30-30. Jeff Cooper called the short .44, the Brooklyn special, and the .44 makes sense for an urban area as it holds more cartridges. What the 30-30 has going for it is better accuracy, another 100 yards of useful range, and a tapered cartridge that feeds better. Brockman has a Marlin 30-30 in process for me. (The pre-64 Winchester 94 is lighter, thinner and more elegant, but not as good for vigorous use in a practical rifle sense).
Don't dry fire the Marlin without a snap cap, or without using of the side block safety, or you will likely break a firing pin. I learned this the hard way.
My favorite lever is a 16.25 inch Marlin in 45-70. It is lighter than the 30-30, since it shares the same frame, but has a bigger hole in the barrel. This is a manly, decisive cartridge/rifle combo, that with the proper bullets is unsurpassed for personal defense against any two or four leg aggressor in North America, and possibly the world.
Tom, I am not familiar with the post Remington quality, but based on comments here, I believe a later model, but pre-Remington one would be the way to go. My recollection is that Marlin changed something after I got mine, making the .44 shoot more accurately, which is why I say a later model.
The real question is whether you want a .44 or 30-30. Jeff Cooper called the short .44, the Brooklyn special, and the .44 makes sense for an urban area as it holds more cartridges. What the 30-30 has going for it is better accuracy, another 100 yards of useful range, and a tapered cartridge that feeds better. Brockman has a Marlin 30-30 in process for me. (The pre-64 Winchester 94 is lighter, thinner and more elegant, but not as good for vigorous use in a practical rifle sense).
Don't dry fire the Marlin without a snap cap, or without using of the side block safety, or you will likely break a firing pin. I learned this the hard way.
My favorite lever is a 16.25 inch Marlin in 45-70. It is lighter than the 30-30, since it shares the same frame, but has a bigger hole in the barrel. This is a manly, decisive cartridge/rifle combo, that with the proper bullets is unsurpassed for personal defense against any two or four leg aggressor in North America, and possibly the world.
I would usually be tempted to find the oldest 1894 I could because . . . just because. But I also gather from the guys on the Marlin Forum that Marlin upgraded some magazine components to improve feeding - probably because cowboy action shooting worked the guns harder and showed some flaws. I am really taking a flying wag of the top of my head but probably late '90's to early 2000's would be a sweat spot. I used to want old to avoid the safety but I've let go of that.
Chuck Haggard
12-20-2012, 06:52 AM
I have been very tempted over the years to make a Marlin into a 30-30 Scout. With the XS sights and rails available it would be a rather easy bolt on job to have irons and either a scout scope or a T-1 mounted, and not much more work to do something like add a light to the gun when needed.
I thought one of the stainless Marlins with a subdued coating would be a perfect hunting/fighting/bad weather PC anywhere in the US (North America?) long gun.
One could, if they chose to do so, make a battery of such guns set up the same, perhaps a .357 or .44, a 30-30 and a 45-70. You could cover damn near every hunting need outside of praire dogs with this battery.
Chuck Haggard
12-20-2012, 07:15 AM
I watched this;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9PMLXP0pNY
and keep thinking that this new Savage may make a decent base for a "practical" rifle.
I have been very tempted over the years to make a Marlin into a 30-30 Scout. With the XS sights and rails available it would be a rather easy bolt on job to have irons and either a scout scope or a T-1 mounted, and not much more work to do something like add a light to the gun when needed.
I thought one of the stainless Marlins with a subdued coating would be a perfect hunting/fighting/bad weather PC anywhere in the US (North America?) long gun.
One could, if they chose to do so, make a battery of such guns set up the same, perhaps a .357 or .44, a 30-30 and a 45-70. You could cover damn near every hunting need outside of praire dogs with this battery.
Here are two Guide Guns, a full bore Brockman, and more of a working one, also done by Brockman:
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/gg3.jpg
Full bore has his laminate stock, Talley bases for a scout scope, his great aperture sights, and a bullet trap in the stock, among other features.
Here is the detail on the bullet trap:
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/gg4.jpg
This is the working Guide Gun, with the factory stocks painted for water resistance, plus an enlarged loop, aperture sights,a nd the beasic necessary stuff:
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/gg1.jpg
I don't think you need anything more than good aperture sights and a bit of Weaver base to attach an H1 to:
detail of sights and rail:
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/gg2.jpg
I think the Brockman stuff is many clicks above the XS stuff in quality and function.
LittleLebowski
12-20-2012, 08:48 AM
Do you have more pics of the bullet trap in the stock, GJM?
NickA
12-20-2012, 09:48 AM
I watched this;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9PMLXP0pNY
and keep thinking that this new Savage may make a decent base for a "practical" rifle.
Definitely priced right. Forgive my long gun ignorance, but what kind of glass would you put on it? Some kind of low power variable?
I watched this;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9PMLXP0pNY
and keep thinking that this new Savage may make a decent base for a "practical" rifle.
Yeah this thread and seeing those priced at $399 and your tutelage about how easy to covert to a detachable magazine etc has elevated that rifle near the top of next guns. G34 can wait.
I don't hunt the Rockies but I hit the range a lot. Super lightweight barrels on my friends Remington Mtn rifles really hold them back on the range. The medium contour barrel on both this and the much more expensive Ruger Gunsite Scout appeal to me a lot more for my uses.
Definitely priced right. Forgive my long gun ignorance, but what kind of glass would you put on it? Some kind of low power variable?
That or a 2.5-8x range.
Chuck Haggard
12-20-2012, 09:56 AM
Just a note on the Savage rifles, I assume you can swap the parts and get a detechable magazine gun with the factory parts, from looking at both types of rifles at the same time, I have yet to test that theory by actually taking two guns apart and seeing if it works.
It appears a call to Savage is in order.
I actually like the detachable magzines on the Savage rifle. You can load and unload very easily, load quickly from an empty gun when needed, and still load single rounds through the action to top off the gun. Best of both I think.
secondstoryguy
12-20-2012, 12:42 PM
Detachable magazines sound good in theory but after having several utilitarian rifles with them I don't use them anymore on practical/hunting rifles(heavy precision guns are a different story). For one, the balance point of most lighter weight bolt actions is right where the magazine is so it makes handling and carrying it in the field a PITA. Secondly, depending on the design, you often can't top it off with one or two individual rounds. Another reason I prefer standard bottom metal is that a magazines is just one more thing to deal with, go wrong or get lost.
Chuck Haggard
12-20-2012, 01:10 PM
Detachable magazines sound good in theory but after having several utilitarian rifles with them I don't use them anymore on practical/hunting rifles(heavy precision guns are a different story). For one, the balance point of most lighter weight bolt actions is right where the magazine is so it makes handling and carrying it in the field a PITA. Secondly, depending on the design, you often can't top it off with one or two individual rounds. Another reason I prefer standard bottom metal is that a magazines is just one more thing to deal with, go wrong or get lost.
The Savage version, being a four round mag you can top off easily, has neither of these problems. One of the reasons I like the design.
ST911
12-20-2012, 09:46 PM
Both of these were made with Wal Mart bought plain vanilla Federal classic .308 150gr SPs. Chosen because they are more than enough for deer and pigs, cheap, and shoot 2" all day long from my Savage.
p/n 308A I assume? Yes, that round is an exceptionally good overall value.
The Fusion in that weight class is also GTG, and shoots to same POI in mine if the 308A is in short supply.
I found the Federal classic 150 sp to shoot so well in my Brockman scout rifles, on par with a 168 Gold Medal or equivalent, that I bought a few cases of it.
I have a DBM (the HS Precision) on a .25-06 I used to shoot the Keneyathalon, and it was helpful in that game setting. Otherwise I find them a pain in the field, as they become a single point failure risk, as in no DBM and you have a single shot left. Also awkward to carry a spare in my hunting clothes. I do have one on a custom .270 WSM built on a Nisaka, but only because .270 WSM is like feeding tomato soup cans, and the box allows reliable feeding.
This fall, I went to grab a Remington LTR, fitted with a HS Precision DBM, for a day of deer hunting. It turned out, I had snitched the magazine for my Nisika, and spread the lips to take WSM. Short story, is no extra DBM, and I was out of luck. Not the end of the world, because it gave me a reason to grab my 6.5 Grendel built on a small CZ 7.62x39 action.
If I had a DBM like Chuck describes, that allowed topping from the top, I would be tempted to duct tape the bottom so it couldn't fall out.
Chuck Haggard
12-20-2012, 10:35 PM
p/n 308A I assume? Yes, that round is an exceptionally good overall value.
The Fusion in that weight class is also GTG, and shoots to same POI in mine if the 308A is in short supply.
Yes, that .308 load. I'll have to try the Fusion some time. I have been so happy with the plain vanilla ammo that I haven't ventured any further after finding how well that load shoots in my gun.
On second thought, on the DBM issue, I love the little, thin single stack five round magazines for the small CZ .223/7.62x39/6.5 Grendel, as they easily go in a pocket or even on the butt of the rifle. I used such a CZ in 7.62x39 in part of a Randy Cain PR class, and it was almost like cheating compared to the guys with traditional rigs.
We called that carbine "Scoutski," and it was an amazing little rig. Buddy has it now in a NE state, where it is his legal car gun.
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/scoutski2.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/scoutski1-1.jpg
I suppose the little CZ in .223 would convert to .300 Blackout pretty easily too.
I suppose the little CZ in .223 would convert to .300 Blackout pretty easily too.
Why didn't I think of that! Will find out.
Chuck Haggard
12-21-2012, 09:42 AM
I had a Stevens by Savage .223 that I picked up on trade. Having plenty of ARs I ended up selling off that gun as it sat in the locker unused.
The day after I sold it a friend sent me a message saying I shouldn't sell it because of these;
http://www.gunshack.com/barrels/savagebarrels?product_id=192
JM Campbell
12-21-2012, 11:49 AM
LOL that's my FFL going there today to pick up my 6920 hopefully.
And they have a Savage hog gun in stock.....
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
Cookie Monster
12-21-2012, 12:10 PM
Anybody want to give a tutorial on the Ching Sling? I am interested.
Thanks,
Cookie Monster
Anybody want to give a tutorial on the Ching Sling? I am interested.
Thanks,
Cookie Monster
http://artoftherifle.blogspot.com/2012/06/using-ching-sling.html
GJM, JHC, et al. -- Thanks for the levergun answers. A couple of years ago I saw a 16" Marlin 1894SBL at SHOT and I intended to get one as soon as they were available, unfortunately that model never made it into production and is no longer listed in the Marlin catalog.
However, a very generous friend recently (yesterday) gave me a Marlin 1894! It appears to have been made in 1976 and has a 20" barrel that I'd like to get cut down to ~16" someday.
Merry Christmas!!! Do you plan to put optics on it? Must it be 16" for storage? You might like it at 20" as it's still handy as heck. I find the decreasing sight radius under 18" to bite me pretty hard on shooting irons past 50 yards. YMMV.
For me, it depends on the aperture size. Brockman makes threaded inserts so you can tune size, and I shoot better groups at 100 with my 16 inch 45-70, using a medium sized aperture, than using my scout scope.
NickA
12-24-2012, 08:38 AM
On second thought, on the DBM issue, I love the little, thin single stack five round magazines for the small CZ .223/7.62x39/6.5 Grendel, as they easily go in a pocket or even on the butt of the rifle. I used such a CZ in 7.62x39 in part of a Randy Cain PR class, and it was almost like cheating compared to the guys with traditional rigs.
We called that carbine "Scoutski," and it was an amazing little rig. Buddy has it now in a NE state, where it is his legal car gun.
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/scoutski2.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/scoutski1-1.jpg
I'm loving that CZ. I plan to shoot one soon, turns out I've got a couple of acquaintances that have them.
Aside from the potential DBM issues, another possible downside was made clear when I went through a Gander Mountain this weekend: not a single round of 7.62x39 available, but there was plenty of 308, 30-30,etc. Nothing that couldn't be overcome by keeping a stash of ammo for times like this, but definitely a factor.
littlejerry
12-24-2012, 10:12 AM
I have always had my eye on those CZ carbines. One of those with an aimpoint micro would be slick.
Any details on the mount and sights on that rifle?
Only question is which caliber should I get?
secondstoryguy
12-24-2012, 10:43 AM
I've owned several of the CZ 527 carbines. They are solid rifles. One issue I do have with them is the design and angle of the bolt handle. When you mount conventional scopes low(as they should be) the bolt handle tends to rub. The good news is modifying the handle is not that hard for anyone with basic metalworking skills. Just make sure you keep the handle cool while you remove the metal.
Tony Muhlenkamp
01-29-2013, 01:40 PM
See www.fireinstitute.org for details
and let me know if you have questions.
Tony Muhlenkamp
tmuhlenkamp@gmail.com
724.934.5139
LSP972
04-20-2016, 07:14 PM
I respect Randy deeply, and have taken several pistol courses from him over the years but this just sounds like an absurd excuse to train with a bolt gun.
The excuse being that bolts and levers will be the last thing to be "outlawed".
I haven't seen this fellow Shawn L. posting any time recently. One wonders if he's still here, and wonders more if he still thinks preparing for the total ban on semi-autos in general, and EBRs in particular, as The HildeBeast's coronation approaches, is still absurd.
It might BE absurd; I certainly hope so. But I just bought a bolt gun and quality scope- the first of either I've owned in almost 30 years- in case it happens. I need one of these classes, too; but no way I can arrange one in time. The rest of this year is booked up with family stuff I simply must attend/deal with.
.
nycnoob
04-20-2016, 07:29 PM
But I just bought a bolt gun and quality scope-
Don't you read Enemies-Foreign-Domestic-Trilogy By Braken (http://www.amazon.com/Enemies-Foreign-Domestic-Trilogy-Book-ebook/dp/B004JF4L98/) ?
Any rifle with a scope will be labeled a "sniper rifle" and those will be banned second!
I had to go back through the thread to check and yes its Shawn L. is from Pittsburgh, I train with him occasionally I think he dropped off the Internet so he could train more. He is either an amazingly motivating example of what you can do if you put your mind too it, or a depressing example of what a slacker I am in comparison.
LSP972
04-20-2016, 07:46 PM
Any rifle with a scope will be labeled a "sniper rifle" and those will be banned second!
Well, there are so many ways she can hose us, and I don't have the bankroll to cover all the bases; but you've got me to thinking that maybe I should buy that cap and ball 1860 Army I've been eyeing… :-) .
And of course, the rifle I bought has no irons. Thanks a lot, bud…:p
.
nycnoob
04-20-2016, 07:52 PM
Thanks a lot, bud…:p
You should read the book, it is quite good. I found it very plausible, I had to stop reading . . . . It was too upsetting.
Free Excerpts here:
http://enemiesforeignanddomestic.com/excerpts/contents.html
FWIW, this class is also the most fun class I've ever taken.
nycnoob
04-20-2016, 08:26 PM
FWIW, this class is also the most fun class I've ever taken.
His next class is in October:
Practical Rifle Oct 8-Oct 10 Lakeland, FL OPEN
http://www.guntactics.com/schedule.htm
rob_s
04-21-2016, 07:45 AM
The excuse being that bolts and levers will be the last thing to be "outlawed".
I haven't seen this fellow Shawn L. posting any time recently. One wonders if he's still here, and wonders more if he still thinks preparing for the total ban on semi-autos in general, and EBRs in particular, as The HildeBeast's coronation approaches, is still absurd.
It might BE absurd; I certainly hope so. But I just bought a bolt gun and quality scope- the first of either I've owned in almost 30 years- in case it happens. I need one of these classes, too; but no way I can arrange one in time. The rest of this year is booked up with family stuff I simply must attend/deal with.
.
I don't think I responded to his post way back when, but Mario, yourself, and GJM all addressed Randy's stated purpose for the course, which is that it'll be the last gun we have when the anti's get their way.
I didn't take the class for that reason, personally.
For me, I wanted to be forced to slow things down. The semi-auto rifle, with it's high capacity magazine, lends itself to correcting for misses (or making up for bad marksmanship) with volumes of fire. and, depending on the application, it can actually be effective to apply this theory in practice. But, it means that one is unlikely to continue to progress in the fundamentals, and so those fundamentals stagnate, or even degrade. So I expressly took the course because the definition of the practical rifle (bolt action, low capacity, big(ger) bore) meant I knew I'd be forced to work on the fundamentals. What I discovered was that the things I thought might distract from the fundamentals (like worrying about running the bolt and topping up the mag) actually strengthened them since I was having to focus on new skills and therefore the fundamentals of sight alignment and trigger control had to be more second nature. What I found, for me, was that being distracted by the bot and the capacity meant I allowed myself to simply perform the fundamentals correctly.
LSP972
04-21-2016, 12:14 PM
For me, I wanted to be forced to slow things down. The semi-auto rifle, with it's high capacity magazine, lends itself to correcting for misses (or making up for bad marksmanship) with volumes of fire. and, depending on the application, it can actually be effective to apply this theory in practice. But, it means that one is unlikely to continue to progress in the fundamentals, and so those fundamentals stagnate, or even degrade. So I expressly took the course because the definition of the practical rifle (bolt action, low capacity, big(ger) bore) meant I knew I'd be forced to work on the fundamentals. What I discovered was that the things I thought might distract from the fundamentals (like worrying about running the bolt and topping up the mag) actually strengthened them since I was having to focus on new skills and therefore the fundamentals of sight alignment and trigger control had to be more second nature. What I found, for me, was that being distracted by the bot and the capacity meant I allowed myself to simply perform the fundamentals correctly.
That makes sense. I just need some training in general on the bolt gun, because aside from sniping armadilloes at night with my CZ452 "Diller Scout", the time I have behind a real bolt gun is practically nothing. Topping up/reloading is another skill missing from my "toolbag". My Ruger American has DBMs that come out/go in pretty easily, and I have ordered extras for a total of five... but I still need to be able to top it up from the ejection port, etc.
I mounted the scope Tuesday; next range session I'll do a rough 50 yard zero and start working on all of this.
.
nycnoob
04-21-2016, 12:21 PM
Topping up/reloading is another skill missing from my "toolbag".
Have you tried the Bob Sled for reloading? Its a phony magazine which makes it easier to load a round via the ejection port:
http://originalbobsled.com/
They are very popular among the competition shooters.
I have not had an opportunity to use mine yet.
Randy's course is a lot of bang for the buck. If you want the longer (and much more expensive) version at a world class facility, also consider Gunsite 270.
LSP972
04-21-2016, 05:40 PM
Have you tried the Bob Sled for reloading? Its a phony magazine which makes it easier to load a round via the ejection port:
http://originalbobsled.com/
They are very popular among the competition shooters.
I have not had an opportunity to use mine yet.
No, haven't seen that before. But it seems like I need to learn this skill with the equipment I'll be using, yes? But thanks for the info…
.
LSP972
04-21-2016, 05:45 PM
Randy's course is a lot of bang for the buck. If you want the longer (and much more expensive) version at a world class facility, also consider Gunsite 270.
Well, we had to bag the 250-for-old-folks class last month, due to an unexpected domestic situation. Color me highly annoyed. I told the wife we are going to the next one in 2017, regardless of relatives who cannot keep their feces consolidated. They will be SOL if this bullshit comes up again.
Assuming, of course, my HKs are still legal to own by then...:rolleyes:
.
rob_s
04-21-2016, 05:55 PM
Practical rifle breach loading and benchrest breach loading are not the same thing. Bob sleds and similar are for the latter.
rob_s
04-22-2016, 06:18 AM
Rob, I've read somewhere (I can't remember if it was here or on another forum) that you have found the M70 Featherweight Compact to be too small for you and that you'd probably go with the regular sized Featherweight if you were to do it again. What exactly was the problem? LOP?
I never answered this.
The issue I had with the compact was twofold. First was that the forearm was too short, both for my long arms AND for the Ching Sling. Second was that the Compact stock comes in at the suggested length (suggested by Randy and others) without cutting, but it is too short for my long arms/long neck/bony frame. I wound up not having room to run the bolt with my face stuck to the stock, and getting chastised for moving it when I shouldn't be. My suggestion would be to buy the full stock and put it on the Compact barreled action, which is where I was headed had I kept the gun. I chose to sell mine because I also want iron sights, and having them added has proved to be an expensive pursuit.
SteveB
04-24-2016, 09:06 AM
Randy's course is a lot of bang for the buck. If you want the longer (and much more expensive) version at a world class facility, also consider Gunsite 270.
Having done both, if I had to choose one, I'd start with Randy. Really solid with fundamentals (think natural point of aim), but, like his shotgun course (also highly recommended), Randy pays a lot of attention to loading the long gun under time pressure. You can discuss details like ejection port size all day, but run a Rolling Thunder drill and you will quickly learn what works and what doesn't.
SteveB
04-24-2016, 09:31 AM
I never answered this.
The issue I had with the compact was twofold. First was that the forearm was too short, both for my long arms AND for the Ching Sling. Second was that the Compact stock comes in at the suggested length (suggested by Randy and others) without cutting, but it is too short for my long arms/long neck/bony frame. I wound up not having room to run the bolt with my face stuck to the stock, and getting chastised for moving it when I shouldn't be. My suggestion would be to buy the full stock and put it on the Compact barreled action, which is where I was headed had I kept the gun. I chose to sell mine because I also want iron sights, and having them added has proved to be an expensive pursuit.
This illustrates an important point: Expecting an off-the-shelf rifle stock to fit you perfectly is a game of chance. Sure, you can accommodate to a generic stock, especially shooting at the range off a bench. Field shooting from jackass positions, using a shooting sling, running the bolt for fast follow-up shots requires a stock that fits you. The M70 Classic Compact that Rob had at the Cain course comes with a 20" barrel and a 13" LOP with a shortened forearm. This did not work for him, but we are roughly the same height and that gun fits me well as I like a short LOP. Here is the same model of rifle; the location of the front sling swivel is necessary due to the short forearm. With the scout scope, an even shorter LOP is possible; 12.75" works for me for a short-action scout or lever gun.
7463
ranger
04-24-2016, 10:37 AM
HOWA is coming this year with a rifle with an even shorter action in 6.5 Grendel with a choice of 20 or 22 inch barrel plus a detachable mag. It may be well suited to this type of activity. Rifle is already available in 223.
rob_s
04-28-2023, 09:23 PM
I decided to bump this for no particular reason other than Randy is awesome.
nate89
04-28-2023, 11:13 PM
I decided to bump this for no particular reason other than Randy is awesome.
I'm glad you did so and I thoroughly enjoyed reading the whole thread. As a lefty, there are a number of bolt guns that are interesting to me, but are either not offered in a left hand option, or are much less common/more expensive. About 15 years ago I got a decent deal on a left hand Ruger scout rifle in 308 and foolishly sold it after a few years. Then a friend (fellow lefty) told me he had the same model in the back of his closet and was willing to sell it to me, which I greatly appreciated. I still haven't put an optic on it, but I do shoot it on occasion and is one of my favorite rifles to take to the range. I really like the look of the grey laminate stock, and mine shoots most ammo well enough.
There's just something satisfying about shooting a bolt gun, and I usually have it suppressed which is very pleasant on a fixed action. I would like to make it out to a class like this someday.
shootist26
04-28-2023, 11:24 PM
Looks like Randy is offering this class this November in FL. I'm tempted to take it and bring my Ruger American Ranch 5.56mm. Curious how it will hold up.
bofe954
04-29-2023, 08:06 AM
Anything new in off the shelf rifles now?
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