ISO a better hunting bullet for a .44 mag rifle

[Crazy Dane]

I took both of my north Georga bucks this year using my 1894 .44 mag. The load is a 200 grain XTP on 28 grains of W296. Book velocity shows ~2100fps out of a 20-inch barrel. (now that I have my Garmin in hand, I will get actual numbers my next good range day)

I am not complaining about the performance of the XTP load, both bucks went down quick and had good blood trails. I'm trying to get away from lead bullets for hunting. In 2022 both of my deer was taken with a .280 using Accubonds. I process my own meat and pride myself in getting all I can while being extremely clean and meticulous. Long story short, I found lead fragments in cooked meat. One in hamburger, I will put that one on me for trying to save too much meat. The other came out of, off of a roast cut out of a hind quarter, I'm still baffled on how a tiny fragment could end up there. I went to Nosler E-tip in the .280 and the Barnes TTSX on the .308s.

This year I had one complete pass through and I recovered one bullet from just under the skin on the other with the .44 mag. Pics below, Recovered bullet weighs 186.7 grains. That's 13.3 grains of lead that went somewhere.

Non lead choices are limited and my leading candidate is the Barnes XPB, the only other option I see is Lehigh Defense extreme penetrator, the only 2 nonlead I have found marketed for hunting. I cannot find any rifle data on either of these. Anyone use these out of a rifle on game? I can find plenty reviews on the XPB from a revolver but no rifle reviews.



https://i.ibb.co/bFrHqqK/IMG-2168.jpg (https://ibb.co/zFS8jj4)

https://i.ibb.co/Hz7bmrw/IMG-2169.jpg (https://ibb.co/pz2MC3V)

[Duelist]

There are radiograph images of deer carcasses that show lead fragments spread out from the bullet path and can pretty much end up anywhere.

Had a talk with GJM about this a couple of years ago. Switched to copper in my .243 and .270. I haven’t hunted with my .357 1894 nor my .44 Special revolver as yet, but when I do, this will be part of the considerations I make about projectile choice.

[Rick R]

As per internet forum protocol, if you ask for advice on cooking steak someone will give their favorite recipe for duck.

I find zero lead fragments when I use WFN cast bullets in my .44 (or .45/70) and the deer don’t go any further than when shot with jacketed. There are always two holes to let air in and blood out, I’m not sure the .45/70 bullets even know they hit something as small as a deer.

Cast are much cheaper than mono-metal too for practice and plinking.

[Crazy Dane]

There are radiograph images of deer carcasses that show lead fragments spread out from the bullet path and can pretty much end up anywhere.

Had a talk with @GJM (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=410) about this a couple of years ago. Switched to copper in my .243 and .270. I haven’t hunted with my .357 1894 nor my .44 Special revolver as yet, but when I do, this will be part of the considerations I make about projectile choice.

I've seen those images and they do cause concern.


As per internet forum protocol, if you ask for advice on cooking steak someone will give their favorite recipe for duck.

I find zero lead fragments when I use WFN cast bullets in my .44 (or .45/70) and the deer don’t go any further than when shot with jacketed. There are always two holes to let air in and blood out, I’m not sure the .45/70 bullets even know they hit something as small as a deer.

Cast are much cheaper than mono-metal too for practice and plinking.


I like duck.

I've used hard cast in the past and it is not lost on me. I've pulled fired bullets out of a red oak stump that I use as a back stop that could be reloaded and fired again. Some/most of the poly coated bullets still have their coating intact which leads me to think that a coated hard cast might be a solution. If red oak can't deform them, how bad can flesh and bone be?

[Toonces]

Heavy bonded Speer Deep Curl or Swift “probably” won’t produce shards at 44 Mag rifle velocities, as compared to .280 velocities. I’m sure they’ll produce less than an XTP. I doubt you could guarantee zero.

Unless the Barnes is inaccurate in your rifle, I’d probably just go that route. Maybe do some hillbilly water jug testing to confirm they can take the speed. Give Barnes a call/email. They are responsive to questions.

[littlejerry]

Are there any bonded options liked Federal Fusion?

[358156hp]

I'm really surprised by your choice of bullet weight for deer hunting with a carbine. You don't mention your velocities, but a 200 gr JHP at carbine velocities tends to be a bit 'splodey. If you're happy with XTPs you might simply consider the 240 grain version, or even the 300 grain.

[Malamute]

I'm really surprised by your choice of bullet weight for deer hunting with a carbine. You don't mention your velocities, but a 200 gr JHP at carbine velocities tends to be a bit 'splodey. If you're happy with XTPs you might simply consider the 240 grain version, or even the 300 grain.


I was wondering what they would do at lower velocities also. My carbine load is 10 grs Unique or Universal at around 1500 fps with the 200 gr xtp. I was wanting mild on the bum shoulder and not much muzzle blast. The comments I recall from people using them in that velocity range on deer were pretty positive, but no info on retained weight.

[Duelist]

I'm really surprised by your choice of bullet weight for deer hunting with a carbine. You don't mention your velocities, but a 200 gr JHP at carbine velocities tends to be a bit 'splodey. If you're happy with XTPs you might simply consider the 240 grain version, or even the 300 grain.


I was wondering what they would do at lower velocities also. My carbine load is 10 grs Unique or Universal at around 1500 fps with the 200 gr xtp. I was wanting mild on the bum shoulder and not much muzzle blast. The comments I recall from people using them in that velocity range on deer were pretty positive, but no info on retained weight.

The load seems to have done the job very decisively. Being ‘splodey/shedding lots of lead frags isn’t optimal, though.

[Duelist]

I'm really surprised by your choice of bullet weight for deer hunting with a carbine. You don't mention your velocities, but a 200 gr JHP at carbine velocities tends to be a bit 'splodey. If you're happy with XTPs you might simply consider the 240 grain version, or even the 300 grain.


I was wondering what they would do at lower velocities also. My carbine load is 10 grs Unique or Universal at around 1500 fps with the 200 gr xtp. I was wanting mild on the bum shoulder and not much muzzle blast. The comments I recall from people using them in that velocity range on deer were pretty positive, but no info on retained weight.

The load seems to have done the job very decisively. Being ‘splodey/shedding lots of lead frags isn’t optimal, though. Just dialing back the velocity might be enough, but if doing that, it wouldn’t hurt to add weight to the projectile.

[Crazy Dane]

Heavy bonded Speer Deep Curl or Swift “probably” won’t produce shards at 44 Mag rifle velocities, as compared to .280 velocities. I’m sure they’ll produce less than an XTP. I doubt you could guarantee zero.

Unless the Barnes is inaccurate in your rifle, I’d probably just go that route. Maybe do some hillbilly water jug testing to confirm they can take the speed. Give Barnes a call/email. They are responsive to questions.

I tried the 270g Deep curl, out of a 5 shot group with 3 different charge weights and 2 different powders, total of 6 groups, I could 3 or 4 in 1 1/2 then the fliers would leave you thinking Ray Charles was doing the shooting. I did not have enough bullets to do further testing and they appear to be unobtanium at the moment.


I'm really surprised by your choice of bullet weight for deer hunting with a carbine. You don't mention your velocities, but a 200 gr JHP at carbine velocities tends to be a bit 'splodey. If you're happy with XTPs you might simply consider the 240 grain version, or even the 300 grain.

I bought a 1000 count box for .44 Special loads so I had them on hand. Research showed several people having great success with the 200g. They stack in one ragged hole out of my rifle and aren't bad out of my revolvers. I am considering in going up on bullet weight. I shoot the 300g XTP out of my muzzle loader, I just don't have many on hand.


I was wondering what they would do at lower velocities also. My carbine load is 10 grs Unique or Universal at around 1500 fps with the 200 gr xtp. I was wanting mild on the bum shoulder and not much muzzle blast. The comments I recall from people using them in that velocity range on deer were pretty positive, but no info on retained weight.

I didn't have a chronograph when I loaded these and wonder if I was driving them too fast. Then I got to worrying that if I didn't drive them fast enough, I wouldn't get good penetration. I'm using W296 and max charge is 28.7, starting is 25.8. I'm dropping 28 grains so I have some room to back it down.


The load seems to have done the job very decisively. Being ‘splodey/shedding lots of lead frags isn’t optimal, though.

Yes the bullet on game preformed as expected. Both deer didn't go very far and had good blood trails. I rib shot both of them because I hate to ruin meat and always expect a trailing job.

The bullet I recovered came from a 7 point that weighed 170ish pounds, shot just behind the shoulder at 55 yards. It shattered ribs on both sides. The bullet was found just barely sticking out of the skin.

Actual bullet performance was good if not great. Comparing to gel test bullets (the chopping block does a 200xtp into real gel), expansion is average. Penetration was good and it only lost 6.65% of its weight so its not that splodey.

I feel that any bullet that is designed to expand has to use lead soft enough to do so and in turn it is soft enough to lose fragments when it hit bone and dense tissue. Even the 300 grain bullets at muzzle loader velocities that I have recovered (2) did not retain 100 precent of their weight.

[Malamute]

I feel that any bullet that is designed to expand has to use lead soft enough to do so and in turn it is soft enough to lose fragments when it hit bone and dense tissue. Even the 300 grain bullets at muzzle loader velocities that I have recovered (2) did not retain 100 precent of their weight.



I dont have the info bookmarked, but recall there were many comments about black powder 44-40 loads (200 gr @1300 fps) with soft lead bullets generally shoot through deer. I think there were a fair number of uses of the 200 gr XTPs used on deer when I was looking a few years ago, info on break-up or weight loss is probably out there with some searching.

Its often the case that penetration goes down when velocity goes up for a given bullet. Theres a balance point of reliable expansion but not breaking up the bullet when it expands. That is part of why I stopped at 1500 fps, it seemed to work at that level reliably. Bones, I dont know what sort of weight loss to expect, though I would anticipate it being less so than at much higher velocities. Again, there may well be info of others experiences to give some idea what to expect.

[Oldherkpilot]

I'm really surprised by your choice of bullet weight for deer hunting with a carbine. You don't mention your velocities, but a 200 gr JHP at carbine velocities tends to be a bit 'splodey. If you're happy with XTPs you might simply consider the 240 grain version, or even the 300 grain.

" 'Splodey." I like that. Sounds like slang for unscheduled rapid disassembly.

[Crazy Dane]

I dont have the info bookmarked, but recall there were many comments about black powder 44-40 loads (200 gr @1300 fps) with soft lead bullets generally shoot through deer. I think there were a fair number of uses of the 200 gr XTPs used on deer when I was looking a few years ago, info on break-up or weight loss is probably out there with some searching.

Its often the case that penetration goes down when velocity goes up for a given bullet. Theres a balance point of reliable expansion but not breaking up the bullet when it expands. That is part of why I stopped at 1500 fps, it seemed to work at that level reliably. Bones, I dont know what sort of weight loss to expect, though I would anticipate it being less so than at much higher velocities. Again, there may well be info of others experiences to give some idea what to expect.


I did some work on Hornady's ballistic calculator (checked results against 2 others) using their impact velocity chart and came up with some good theoretical data.


The 200g XTP has a max impact velocity of 1630ish fps and a minimum of 800ish. I wish they would put out numbers instead of a bar graph.

With a muzzle velocity at 2100fps it doesn't drop past the max threshold until 100+ yards.

At 1650fps MV, at 125 yards it is 1232 fps.

At 1750 fps MV, at 125 yards it is 1302 fps it drops below max impact velocity at 25 yards.

I played around with other numbers but these are the 2 I'm going to try for.

The 240g and 300 g XTPS can't even reach max impact velocities out of a .44 mag rifle. The 240 can start out right at max and seems to be the better choice. The MV for the 300 shows that it will be about 500fps less than the max impact V.

I am waiting on information from Barnes. I've asked for their max velocity and data for rifles.

[JTMcC]

I agree with the "use a heavier XTP" crowd but would also be happy to use a Hard cast WFN, or an XPB.
XPB's at 18" velocity will fold the petals back farther/flatter, that doesn't bother me. My XPB use is 225's, no experience with the 200.

I think 240 XTP's are great bullets, 300's are even greater but the XPB gives lower recoil in applications where that's a plus.
If I was loading .44 mag for deer I'd probably just stuff a WFN in there and be happy. That gives you a chance with anything from rabbit to brown bear :)

[willie]

A fmj flat point bullet would address and resolve any lead fragment issues in meat. Geco, Underwood's, MagTec, and Precision shooting sell factory 44 Mag fmj ammo. Two boxes of 50 would last forever if used only for hunting. My opinion is that the 43 caliber hole in the deer would suffice. A solid cast bullet would be my choice.

[Crazy Dane]

Because a wide flat nose has been recommended, I have found these 3 that I want to try, 44 Mag, LBT, 280gr, WFN-GC - Montana Bullet Works (https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/44-mag-lbt-280gr-wfn-gc/), 44 Mag, LBT, 260gr, WFN-GC - Montana Bullet Works (https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/44-mag-lbt-260gr-wfn-gc/), 44 Mag, LBT, 240gr, WFN-GC - Montana Bullet Works (https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/44-mag-lbt-240gr-wfn-gc/). These all have gas checks.

The rifle is a Remington made Marlin 1894, what diameter should I be looking at? Research says barrel should be .431 to .432. My concern is the gas check, I've never used checked bullets before.

[358156hp]

Because a wide flat nose has been recommended, I have found these 3 that I want to try, 44 Mag, LBT, 280gr, WFN-GC - Montana Bullet Works (https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/44-mag-lbt-280gr-wfn-gc/), 44 Mag, LBT, 260gr, WFN-GC - Montana Bullet Works (https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/44-mag-lbt-260gr-wfn-gc/), 44 Mag, LBT, 240gr, WFN-GC - Montana Bullet Works (https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/44-mag-lbt-240gr-wfn-gc/). These all have gas checks.

The rifle is a Remington made Marlin 1894, what diameter should I be looking at? Research says barrel should be .431 to .432. My concern is the gas check, I've never used checked bullets before.

Before ordering, make sure you contact the seller and inform them that you will be loading whatever bullets you purchase in a lever-action. This is very important because the action lengths do vary a bit and it's not uncommon for a bullet nose to be a bit too long to feed in a lever gun. The bullet nose diameter (meplat) also can have a vote in whether a bullet will feed properly as well. The gas checks will come already installed on the bullets, the only concern I can possibly think of is if you're running a suppressor, most suppressor types won't shoot with gas checks out of concern for them coming detached and becoming lodged in the can. For bullet diameter, all you can really do is slug your barrel to find the exact diameter of your particular barrel.

[camel]

Before ordering, make sure you contact the seller and inform them that you will be loading whatever bullets you purchase in a lever-action. This is very important because the action lengths do vary a bit and it's not uncommon for a bullet nose to be a bit too long to feed in a lever gun. The bullet nose diameter (meplat) also can have a vote in whether a bullet will feed properly as well. The gas checks will come already installed on the bullets, the only concern I can possibly think of is if you're running a suppressor, most suppressor types won't shoot with gas checks out of concern for them coming detached and becoming lodged in the can. For bullet diameter, all you can really do is slug your barrel to find the exact diameter of your particular barrel.

I second this.

[okie john]

Slug the barrel, then give Montana Bullet Works a call, and follow their advice. They'll get you fixed up.


Okie John

[Crazy Dane]

Before ordering, make sure you contact the seller and inform them that you will be loading whatever bullets you purchase in a lever-action. This is very important because the action lengths do vary a bit and it's not uncommon for a bullet nose to be a bit too long to feed in a lever gun. The bullet nose diameter (meplat) also can have a vote in whether a bullet will feed properly as well. The gas checks will come already installed on the bullets, the only concern I can possibly think of is if you're running a suppressor, most suppressor types won't shoot with gas checks out of concern for them coming detached and becoming lodged in the can. For bullet diameter, all you can really do is slug your barrel to find the exact diameter of your particular barrel.

I have used a fair bit of cast bullets in this gun including some big SWCs, and there is no suppressor. The wide flat points that I'm looking for seem to gas checked from MBW and nowhere else. I'm not sad about this as I've shot many MBW bullets. All of the cast I have shot has been sized at .430 or .431 with varying accuracy, I wasn't sure how to size GC bullets.


Slug the barrel, then give Montana Bullet Works a call, and follow their advice. They'll get you fixed up.

I knew someone was going to suggest this. I have the fishing weight, oil, fresh bottle of gin, I will have to stop Monday and get me a hardwood dowel.

Okie John

[358156hp]

I have used a fair bit of cast bullets in this gun including some big SWCs, and there is no suppressor. The wide flat points that I'm looking for seem to gas checked from MBW and nowhere else. I'm not sad about this as I've shot many MBW bullets. All of the cast I have shot has been sized at .430 or .431 with varying accuracy, I wasn't sure how to size GC bullets.

You don't. You order them in the size you want. The gas checks are crimped on when the bullets are sized and lubricated.

[Crazy Dane]

Well, I've slugged my barrel. There is just something creepy about driving a hunk of metal down a barrel. Anyway, it measured out to .431 and I have an email in to MBW to see what they recommend.

[Malamute]

Well, I've slugged my barrel. There is just something creepy about driving a hunk of metal down a barrel. Anyway, it measured out to .431 and I have an email in to MBW to see what they recommend.


Thats the only way to be sure what the groove diameter is of your gun, now you know. Theres enough variation in production guns that its the only way to be positive what yours is. The SAAMI specs for rifles in 44 mag indicate a slightly larger acceptable diameter than handguns in the same chambering, strange as it may seem.

[Crazy Dane]

MBW has a question asking it the bullets are going to be used in a revolver ,and I emailed asking for clarity. If anyone ever questions their quality, direct them to the response I got: It just gives us more information so we can help ensure they'll work in your gun, if you select yes we'll send bullets that are at or slightly below (three tenths of a thousandth) .432" if you select no we'll send bullets that are at or slightly above (five tenths of a thousandth) .432". It's very difficult to get exactly .432" and it helps us make sure your bullets won't get stuck in your throats.

I'm not even sure of how to write out "3 tenths of a thousandth" much less have the equipment to measure that...

[358156hp]

MBW has a question asking it the bullets are going to be used in a revolver ,and I emailed asking for clarity. If anyone ever questions their quality, direct them to the response I got: It just gives us more information so we can help ensure they'll work in your gun, if you select yes we'll send bullets that are at or slightly below (three tenths of a thousandth) .432" if you select no we'll send bullets that are at or slightly above (five tenths of a thousandth) .432". It's very difficult to get exactly .432" and it helps us make sure your bullets won't get stuck in your throats.

I'm not even sure of how to write out "3 tenths of a thousandth" much less have the equipment to measure that...

It's a "yes" or "no" question. They want to know if you will be using any of these bullets in a revolver. Many revolvers seem to get a slight buildup of bullet lube and carbon in the throats they want to know if they should size the bullets to accommodate this potential condition. If you will be using any of these bullets in your 44 Spl revolver you mentioned earlier, I'd recommend you answer this question "yes". This will not appreciably affect use in your lever action. You did tell them this was for a lever action rifle so they could make certain the bullet noses aren't too long to feed correctly didn't you?