Can I build basic pistol skills from nothing with an airgun and online resources?

[paul-mf]

Hi All, I'm a rank newbie with firearms and looking to build some level of basic skill with the Glock 19 I picked up for home defense a couple of years ago.

There are no firing ranges or personal instructor options convenient to my area, and my neighbors would definitely complain about noise if I trained using a real pistol.

I'm planning to start building my skills using a blowback airgun Glock, YouTube videos, and paper targets in my back yard (7 acres). Also, based on the videos I've watched so far, I'm thinking I want to learn on a red dot sight as the easiest way to get some ability to hit mid size targets in the 5 to 25 yard range.

I would welcome any advice about the feasibility of this approach and/or appropriateness of red dot. In particular, if I should get reasonably skilled with the airgun at hitting targets, will this translate to some degree of effectiveness with the real thing? If this is a reasonable approach I would especially appreciate recommendations for books, blogs, or online videos.

Thanks in advance for any advice. And please let me know if there is a more appropriate forum to post this kind of request to.

-Paul in Marble

[Clusterfrack]

Welcome to Pistol-Forum, Paul. What a great question, and one I'm not sure anyone has asked here before.

My main concern with new gun owners is safety: including storage, handling, loading, unloading, holstering, firing, and proper/legal use. I think airsoft or even a Bluegun is a great way to learn and practice, and I have used both when teaching new shooters. Of course some of the things you need to learn require the real gun, and that needs to be done safely so you don't shoot yourself or your family members accidentally.

Then you need to learn how to shoot the gun so you can hit what you are aiming at (and not hit other objects that don't need to be shot).

Doing all that online, and without a coach is challenging, and in my opinion not ideal. If it were me, I would travel to take a class or two. Let's wait for some of our subject matter experts on pistol training to chime in.

[paul-mf]

Hey Clusterfrack, thanks so much for the quick response.

For a little more context, I do have 3 family members with experience in hunting and varmint control on their 120 to 640-acre ranches. By no means are any of them qualified instructors but their gun safety advice to me does align with what I've been reading and watching online. That said, all of them have no experience with pistols, on top of them not being instructors, so I question whether there are differences between pistol and rifle safety that they may have no clue about.

Whenever I do get to a certain base level of competency in my backyard I do plan to drive a few hours to the nearest ranch and see if I can use the real Glock to achieve similar results. I suppose one of my other questions, is, if I train exclusively on blowback air pistols at the beginning, will I pick up bad habits that are hard to undo for a live pistol?

Thanks again,
Paul

[RJ]

Hey Paul. Welcome. I’m glad you’re here. I turn 65 next month, and picked up a gun for the first time 10 years ago, so I can kinda relate.

I have some thoughts for you but need to get to a real keyboard, but will try and put some suggestions for you soon. There are a lot of smart folks here also, with tons more experience than I have. Hopefully they’ll be along shortly.

[shane45]

IIRC there was a guy from a country that had stout firearms prohibition who followed this path and when he came to the states and shot for real did very well.

[HCM]

IIRC there was a guy from a country that had stout firearms prohibition who followed this path and when he came to the states and shot for real did very well.

You're thinking of the Japanese Bianchi cup shooter who mostly train with Airsoft in Japan. But it didn't play out exactly like that. He had good coaching in Japan with airsoft. He also shot 20,000 rounds during a month of live fire training while being coached by Mickey Fowler (4x Bianchi Cup winner) before the match.

There is also a Vietnamese shooter who won an Olympic medal in air pistol primarily training dry fire. But 1) Air gun; 2) was dry training due to lack of budget / ammo; 3) had previously shot before; 4 received professional coaching.

I think you could do a lot with airsoft / airguns or simulators with professional coaching.

You could make some progress on your own with air soft/airguns but true autodidacts are rare.

There are professional instructors who do virtual / remote/ facetime lessons. I think given the OP's stated parameters that would be a good place to start in conjunction with his airguns.

At some some point though, to be effective with a Glock 19, you will need to travel or do what ever is necessary to do some live fire and validate your training. Particularly with regard to grip and recoil control. It's just too easy for one's grip and stance to get sloppy only doing dryfire.

[CCT125US]

Define "convenient" and your general area.

[Cookie Monster]

When I first purchased a firearm, Glock 17. I took a 2 day basics class - 5 hour travel one way. From there I was able to dry practice and watch Paul Gomez You Tube videos to improve and get very proficient as I continued to take classes.

Good luck and welcome to PF.

[MickAK]

It can be done on your own with online resources but it's going to cost much more money and time than if you get professional in person training to start with and video training sessions to maintain your growth.

That's not a small much. There are going to be lots of little things that you are going to miss with online resources only that will take you many hours of training to unlearn. This is in addition to thousands of dollars of ammunition, thousands of dollars of wear on equipment, and a lot of frustration.

This is just to learn basic marksmanship. There's a lot of other things that go into using that tool effectively. If you have to spend an excessive amount of time learning the one thing in leaves less time for the others. And less money, as mentioned. So a trainer and some range trips might be more convenient than you think when taking everything into account.

[Dov]

What country are you in?

If in the US there probably are at least basic hunter safety and probably local CCW instructors nearby.

I think in general hunter safety classes are generally good.

Local CCW instructors can vary from good to fair to bad, and for someone starting out it will be difficult to tell which are which.

I would strongly recommend taking a hunter safety class or two to start with to get the basics of gun safety.

If your in a shall issue state for CCW (meaning a state where anyone with clean criminal record and sometimes basic class roughly akin to getting drivers learning permit can get a carry permit) good chance there are people in your county if not your city/town that teach State approved or accepted CCW classes.

i know in my state here in the Midwest Community Education classes almost always have CCW classes from couple different people.

Here is one resource https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/resources/how-to-get-a-concealed-carry-permit/

For hunter safety just googling your city and hunter safety classes or going to local gun shop and asking should get listings.

[RJ]

Hi All, I'm a rank newbie with firearms and looking to build some level of basic skill with the Glock 19 I picked up for home defense a couple of years ago.

There are no firing ranges or personal instructor options convenient to my area, and my neighbors would definitely complain about noise if I trained using a real pistol.

I'm planning to start building my skills using a blowback airgun Glock, YouTube videos, and paper targets in my back yard (7 acres). Also, based on the videos I've watched so far, I'm thinking I want to learn on a red dot sight as the easiest way to get some ability to hit mid size targets in the 5 to 25 yard range.

I would welcome any advice about the feasibility of this approach and/or appropriateness of red dot. In particular, if I should get reasonably skilled with the airgun at hitting targets, will this translate to some degree of effectiveness with the real thing? If this is a reasonable approach I would especially appreciate recommendations for books, blogs, or online videos.

Thanks in advance for any advice. And please let me know if there is a more appropriate forum to post this kind of request to.

-Paul in Marble

Hey Paul -

Have you shot your Glock 19? Have you ever shot a handgun?

When you say "convenient to my area", what does that mean? Are there firing ranges which are not convenient? If so, what inconvenience does that involve?

I think if your goal is to shoot an Airsoft pistol accurately, you are on the right track. But no, I don't think shooting an airsoft pistol equates to what you will feel with a real Glock 19, no. While it might be fun, ultimately it would be a waste of time. What you can do with an Airsoft replica (assuming it is a replica Airsoft Glock 19) is to safely perform basic manipulation - handling, holstering, grip, and presentation. Without live ammo though? No.


I think it's great you are trying to learn to shoot your Glock 19 accurately. Many people have used their pistols for justified self-defense without much training, at all. But it would be much, much better for you if when you do that, it's not the first time you've shot your gun.

Good luck and I look forward to your responses in the thread.

[1Rangemaster]

Welcome, sir; I commend you for seeking and asking for information.
It's my belief one can't really obtain decent skills by just dry practice/simulation with a non-firearm. Perhaps it's a little like putting someone in a driving simulator and then telling them good luck on the parking lot/street/highway.
Clusterfrack is right; safe handling and living with the firearm is the first priority. I can show someone how to manipulate, load and most importantly, unload safely with a simulated piece or a live gun and dummy rounds. I can demonstrate the fundamentals, but it takes life fire to confirm(and coincidentally to build confidence).
I think it was HCM who said a little while ago that his organization was seeing good results starting with a dot, but I don't think a dot is critical. The students are also firing live ammunition in a controlled environment with supervision and coaching.
Claude Werner, aka the "Tactical Professor" has had a couple of online programs the past two years on Patreon. Even this involves live fire confirmation/evaluation. I would recommend you bite the bullet-pun intended-and get some instruction first. You'll be far ahead of a lot of gun owners if you do.
Last personal anecdote: I had firearms for years before I went to a pistol class decades ago. I had some safety/marksmanship training in the Boy Scouts. A John Farnam class saved me a lot of time and probably grief. It doesn't have to be a "name" instructor/school, but please get some. Best of luck in your journey

[psalms144.1]

Paul - to echo what's been said above by many, no, YouTube and Airsoft are probably not going to "get you there" if you're looking to become competent in the use of your chosen defensive handgun.

A couple of thoughts - if I read your post correctly, you're a new handgun owner. Do you have ANY shooting experience? Do you understand the basics of firearms safety and the fundamentals of marksmanship? If not, I'd really urge you to find a nearby NRA instructor and take basic handgun. I'm an NRA instructor, if you want to PM me your location, I can see what I can find about instructors in your area.

I would NOT recommend "learning to shoot a handgun" with a Glock 19. I'd urge you to drop the $350 or so and get a Glock 44 and a brick of decent ammo. When starting from scratch, it's REALLY important not to teach yourself bad habits like shot anticipation (commonly referred to as "flinch") that's much more likely to develop with a lightweight 9mm than an equivalently sized .22.

Another advantage to the .22 is you might be able to set up your own safe range on your 7 acres, without annoying the neighbors as much. Again, not sure about your specific situation, and before doing any shooting on private property I'd want someone competent in range safety to look over your plan.

Welcome to the forum, and hope we can help you on your journey!

[1Rangemaster]

I’ll echo what psalms144.1 said: a .22 rimfire is an excellent trainer, and the G44 duplicates the G19 envelope. I’ve introduced a lot of folks to handgunning with one. It’s a significant step up from Airsoft; it’s a REAL gun, so practice safety accordingly.

[JHC]

IMO and IME you can develop significant precision skill with airsoft just as people do shooting .22s. It used to be pretty common for internet advice to new shooters was to get a baseline of fundamentals established with a .22 before jumping into centerfire. I don't see why an airsoft would be any different.

During my youth, I rarely had the opportunity to live fire handguns. Like a handful of times a year. But I dry fired incessantly; like almost daily for years (with a K-38, single action and double action). My coaches were my dad and a few magazine articles. I developed enough precision skill to hunt squirrels with a K-22 pretty well. The majority of my fundamentals of trigger work was built during this period.

Some years back I met a former SF senior NCO and we did some shooting. One time he brought his then 17 year old son to the range and the lad had only trained with his airsoft guns for the previous several years and I was struck at how well he was shooting GSSF plate racks with this dad's G19. Not match winning speed but 6 for 6 in like 5 second range stuff.

Recoil management in strings of fire will be more challenging to learn.

[NETim]

Any serious training with that Glock (or any handgun for that matter), involves developing a dry fire routine with that pistol. For starters, aim it at a plain white wall WITH NO LIVE AMMO anywhere in the room and learn to pull the trigger straight to the rear while working to minimize front sight disturbance. This will come from a correct trigger pull and grip on the handgun. You must develop those. Dryfiring will go a long ways to getting you there.

The plain white wall will help you focus on the front sight, which is where all of your attention should be.

[paul-mf]

Wow, thank you everyone for the thoughtful and helpful responses. I thought this forum might be too advanced for a newbie and really appreciate the warm welcome.

I have shot our Glock on one occasion about 3 years ago at my mother in law's ranch. That side of the family does a good bit of hunting and gave me some bare bones gun safety instruction, but no marksmanship instruction whatsoever as they only shoot rifles. I was not by any means a natural-- with a 12" target about 5 or 6 yards out I managed to put only 3 of 15 rounds anywhere on it :p.

As for how the definition of "convenient" and location, here's the part where you will all want to slap me. In my defense before I fess up, I define 'convenient' pretty narrowly because I'd like to be able to practice daily or at least multiple times a week. I tend to be pretty intense and immersive with new hobbies. Okay, I'm running out of ways to avoid the question: I'm in central Texas about 2 hours outside of Austin. The nearest gun range is about 45 minutes drive, so I won't be using it more than once or twice a month at best. And frankly, I've been too intimidated to go to as a know-nothing. The range is closer to ranch land than to any sizeable city so I suspect everyone at it will be life-long shooters and perhaps not very tolerant of a "hobbyist".

Your guidance is firm and consistent about the importance of getting a real instructor. I'm sure Austin has dozens of options and I just need to suck it up and plan a 2 or 3 day trip around an intro course, perhaps one with an instructor who can do video follow up sessions.

If I haven't annoyed you too much by coming in as a Texan saying there are no "convenient" options, I do have a couple of follow up questions that I'd appreciate your thoughts on:

In general, would you consider dry practice better than airgun target practice? Intuitively, it seems like the feedback of whether I actually aimed correctly and managed to pull the trigger without disrupting the shot would be highly valuable. However, I don't want to actively undermine building my real skills if the differences in trigger, recoil, other dynamics are such that the airgun practice would do more harm than good.

Does a red dot sight seem like the best approach for my objectives? I have no iron sight skills or habits to unlearn, and I'm not worried about keeping up with batteries or ability to function without them.

[Chance]

I am going to echo NETim and suggest that dry fire practice with the actual pistol might be more useful than trying to mimic live fire with an airsoft pistol. It's easy to underestimate the value of dry fire, but it can work wonders when practiced correctly and consistently.

Consider picking up a copy of DryFire Reloaded (https://www.amazon.com/DryFire-Reloaded-Ben-Stoeger/dp/1542880246/) or researching folks like John McPhee (https://sobtactical.com/virtual-coaching/), who are adept at coaching via video.

[frozentundra]

When I began the process of learning to train serious skills for defensive handgun applications, I think I wasted a great deal of time and money by not getting quality formal training immediately. Eventually, I traveled around to train with some recognizable instructors, but I learned most of what I know today from the internet and books. Good initial training from a QUALITY instructor is certainly ideal (they are not all created equal, unfortunately). That being said, I think there are some things that really helped me out more than others.

Trigger Finger Register Position
Craig Douglas about trigger finger register position:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1asDqdVoH-U

4 Count Drawstroke
One of the most simple and important things, to me, was learning the 4 count drawstroke as taught by Craig Douglas or the late, great Paul Gomez (RIP). I suppose you could refer to this as a ShivWorks 4 count draw. Even if you're not planning on concealed carry, I think learning this format of working from the holster is invaluable, and it can be done without live ammunition. It serves as a strong fundamental basis of basic gun handling in a very simple, regimented and prescribed format. This basic scheme of motion helps to tie Coopers 4 Rules of firearms safety to an unambiguous, embodied practice, and it can be drilled if you have even one minute of spare time and an airsoft/dummy prop gun.

Paul Gomez-rapid explanation of 4 count drawstroke
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OZfgutNufU&t=1s

Craig Douglas-deeper dive into drawstroke counts 1,2,3 and 4:
Count 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEBVimrZ4b4
Count 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dOXCChdw-w
Count 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHmpHNTWXTE
Count 4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2qGyIxed9Y

Craig Douglas-some additional videos about drawstroke:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqnaoI11YpA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZwYmNwlVi8


Positions for Muzzle Aversion-Arc of Ready
Another conceptual framework, and simple embodied scheme of motion, practicable without shooting, may be well described by Dave Spaulding's phrase "Arc of Ready". For me, these simple concepts, themselves movement practices, compliment and dovetail into the ShivWorks style 4 count drawstroke perfectly. Although I prefer the nuances of how Craig Douglas of ShivWorks teaches some of these positions, Dave Spaulding's phrase, and some of his explanations about how/why such a scheme of motion is useful, have been very valuable to me in understanding these ideas.

Paul Gomez on Ready Positions and Positions for muzzle aversion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftC6MXFGxCg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLMesZVCZdw

Dave Spaulding on Arc of Ready/Positions for muzzle aversion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6faxyKh7QZ4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LetQfjmaJOw

Dryfire
The regimented practice of a robust 4 count drawstroke can be combined with inert training rounds, such as these https://stactionpro.com/product/9-mm-action-trainer-dummy-round/ , in a Glock 19 or any other 9mm handgun. They can be used to practice load/unload/reload skills that promote SAFE, combat effective gun handling skills.

Dry fire drills combined with the 4 count drawstroke can help you learn shooting mechanics. However, without live fire recoil for feedback, it's possible to build and ingrain very bad habits. I think one thing that helps me here is to think of gripping the gun in dryfire as a strength training exercise. I want to be gripping hard.

Claude Werner, "The Tactical Professor", has a website and online articles/courses/ebooks that address dryfire and protocols, mindsets, decision making and avoiding common mistakes, at a very practical level. I consider him to be an indispensable resource for any new gun owner thinking about defensive use of a handgun. https://thetacticalprofessor.net/



So, in conclusion, if I were going to go back in time, I would tell myself to get some proper training straight away. Failing that, or in preparation for it, I would tell myself to watch all of the videos on Paul Gomez's YouTube channel in reverse order (oldest to newest), and become obsessive about studying all of the Craig Douglas/Shivworks content I could get my eyes/ears on. I would also take a deep dive into Claude Werner's Tactical Professor content with regard to avoiding stupid mistakes and how to think about dryfire and practice. There are many other great resources available, but this is where I would start. Also, everyone should read The Law of Self Defense by Andrew Branca, and everyone should be exposed to some of Massad Ayoob's content about legal considerations and related context about what may happen after a self defense encounter.

You can do this if you approach it with serious work ethic and reverence for learning an Art. Practice embodied drills for at least a few minutes each day, but pay particular attention to the nuances and specifics. Practice does not make perfect if you are practicing imperfectly; in that case you are just deeply ingraining bad habits. Be very thoughtful and take a quality over quantity approach in the beginning. You will do well if you want it bad enough to seek the knowledge and invest your attention in the correct areas. You have surely come to the right place to start!

[NETim]

Dry fire drills combined with the 4 count drawstroke can help you learn shooting mechanics. However, without live fire recoil for feedback, it's possible to build and ingrain very bad habits. I think one thing that helps me here is to think of gripping the gun in dryfire as a strength training exercise. I want to be gripping hard.


Danger Will Robinson! Danger! This can't be emphasized enough IMHO. It is so very easy to get lazy with the grip during dryfire drills. I have to fight this inattention to detail constantly.

[Cheap Shot]

If a 22 is out of the question another alternative might be a bb gun. On seven acres you shouldn't have a problem shooting on your property or in a basement with proper precautions..

https://www.amazon.com/GLOCK-Blowback-177-Caliber-Pistol/dp/B07NDC65TB?th=1

Agree with everyone else who said gun safety is priority one.

Good luck

[Cory]

When I began the process of learning to train serious skills for defensive handgun applications, I think I wasted a great deal of time and money by not getting quality formal training immediately. Eventually, I traveled around to train with some recognizable instructors, but I learned most of what I know today from the internet and books. Good initial training from a QUALITY instructor is certainly ideal (they are not all created equal, unfortunately). That being said, I think there are some things that really helped me out more than others.

Trigger Finger Register Position
Craig Douglas about trigger finger register position:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1asDqdVoH-U

4 Count Drawstroke
One of the most simple and important things, to me, was learning the 4 count drawstroke as taught by Craig Douglas or the late, great Paul Gomez (RIP). I suppose you could refer to this as a ShivWorks 4 count draw. Even if you're not planning on concealed carry, I think learning this format of working from the holster is invaluable, and it can be done without live ammunition. It serves as a strong fundamental basis of basic gun handling in a very simple, regimented and prescribed format. This basic scheme of motion helps to tie Coopers 4 Rules of firearms safety to an unambiguous, embodied practice, and it can be drilled if you have even one minute of spare time and an airsoft/dummy prop gun.

Paul Gomez-rapid explanation of 4 count drawstroke
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OZfgutNufU&t=1s

Craig Douglas-deeper dive into drawstroke counts 1,2,3 and 4:
Count 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEBVimrZ4b4
Count 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dOXCChdw-w
Count 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHmpHNTWXTE
Count 4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2qGyIxed9Y

Craig Douglas-some additional videos about drawstroke:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqnaoI11YpA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZwYmNwlVi8


Positions for Muzzle Aversion-Arc of Ready
Another conceptual framework, and simple embodied scheme of motion, practicable without shooting, may be well described by Dave Spaulding's phrase "Arc of Ready". For me, these simple concepts, themselves movement practices, compliment and dovetail into the ShivWorks style 4 count drawstroke perfectly. Although I prefer the nuances of how Craig Douglas of ShivWorks teaches some of these positions, Dave Spaulding's phrase, and some of his explanations about how/why such a scheme of motion is useful, have been very valuable to me in understanding these ideas.

Paul Gomez on Ready Positions and Positions for muzzle aversion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftC6MXFGxCg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLMesZVCZdw

Dave Spaulding on Arc of Ready/Positions for muzzle aversion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6faxyKh7QZ4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LetQfjmaJOw

Dryfire
The regimented practice of a robust 4 count drawstroke can be combined with inert training rounds, such as these https://stactionpro.com/product/9-mm-action-trainer-dummy-round/ , in a Glock 19 or any other 9mm handgun. They can be used to practice load/unload/reload skills that promote SAFE, combat effective gun handling skills.

Dry fire drills combined with the 4 count drawstroke can help you learn shooting mechanics. However, without live fire recoil for feedback, it's possible to build and ingrain very bad habits. I think one thing that helps me here is to think of gripping the gun in dryfire as a strength training exercise. I want to be gripping hard.

Claude Werner, "The Tactical Professor", has a website and online articles/courses/ebooks that address dryfire and protocols, mindsets, decision making and avoiding common mistakes, at a very practical level. I consider him to be an indispensable resource for any new gun owner thinking about defensive use of a handgun. https://thetacticalprofessor.net/



So, in conclusion, if I were going to go back in time, I would tell myself to get some proper training straight away. Failing that, or in preparation for it, I would tell myself to watch all of the videos on Paul Gomez's YouTube channel in reverse order (oldest to newest), and become obsessive about studying all of the Craig Douglas/Shivworks content I could get my eyes/ears on. I would also take a deep dive into Claude Werner's Tactical Professor content with regard to avoiding stupid mistakes and how to think about dryfire and practice. There are many other great resources available, but this is where I would start. Also, everyone should read The Law of Self Defense by Andrew Branca, and everyone should be exposed to some of Massad Ayoob's content about legal considerations and related context about what may happen after a self defense encounter.

You can do this if you approach it with serious work ethic and reverence for learning an Art. Practice embodied drills for at least a few minutes each day, but pay particular attention to the nuances and specifics. Practice does not make perfect if you are practicing imperfectly; in that case you are just deeply ingraining bad habits. Be very thoughtful and take a quality over quantity approach in the beginning. You will do well if you want it bad enough to seek the knowledge and invest your attention in the correct areas. You have surely come to the right place to start!


This is one of the highest quality posts I have seen on this forum. I think that Paul Gomez created some of the easiest to digest information for new shooters that has ever been available on the internet, even today.

Priorities
-Home Storage Safety
-Weapon Handling Safety
-Specific Dryfire Safety Plan and Set up

Home Storage:
Assuming you're in the US, any harbor freight has a simple hinge safe that will give you a place to keep your Glock where others can't access it. https://www.harborfreight.com/digital-drawer-safe-62985.html This safe will allow you to fit a holstered handgun with no fuss, and it fits underneath your average bed. I would recommend not keeping the firearm loaded at first.

Weapon Handling Safety:
You need to know how to ensure your firearm is unloaded. Remove the magazine, then lock the slide to the rear. While it can be possible to do in reverse order, it is better to not do so until you have a firm grasp on the firing sequence or mechanical operation of the gun.

You need to know the basic rules of firearms safety.
-Treat firearms as if they're loaded.
-Keep the firearm pointed in a safe direction. Do not point at something you don't want to shoot.
-Finger off the trigger (out of the trigger guard. See the finger register position mentioned above)
-Know your target and what is beyond it.

It's important to understand the spirit of those basic rules, and understand how they work with training. Obviously you don't want to shoot your dryfire target. But if you know you're violating that rule, it becomes all the more important to recognize it and ensure that you're following as many of the rules as you can, and have robust mechanisms in place to prevent a unintended shot being fired.

Specific dryfire safety plan:
There are many actions which can be trained in dryfire with an airsoft gun, or a blue inert training gun. Either option will allow you to train for your draw, grip, sight picture, sight alignment, where your eyes point, where your eyes focus, transition from target to target, ready positions, moving, and reholstering. Those tasks alone can be combined in more ways than is fathomable. Some blue guns or airsoftguns may also allow you to practice reloading the firearm or malfunction clearance. This is a staggering amount of skill which can be gained without ever using your actual firearm. I strongly encourage you to do as much dryfire as possible without the firearm. Nearly all of the things I just listed do not require you to pull a trigger, and in many cases pulling a trigger will actually take away from what you're working to improve.

Somethings require dryfire with a firearm to learn. The biggest of these is trigger pull. Pulling a trigger without disturbing or misaligning the sights can only be learned by pulling the trigger a lot. It is important that when using a live firearm to learn this you have a safety plan in place.

Here are some things to consider about dryfire with a live gun:
-Dryfire should only occur in 1 room. (For me it's the garage). Absolutely never in the room I store my firearms, or the room I store my ammo.
-Ammunition is not in the dryfire room, other than my loaded carry gun when performing other activities. (dude, it's a garage. I do stuff in the there)
-As much dryfire as can be performed without a live firearm should be.
-Unload the firearm before going into the dryfire area. I leave the ammunition in an easy to see place when I leave the garage. Why? Because that's where I load and unload. I make a habit to only do that in one place in the house, so that I'm not dicking with a gun all over the house. It feels wrong if I'm loading in another place, and makes you wonder if you need to be handling the gun right now. Handling, loading, unloading when you don't need to is how you fuck up and shoot something when you shouldn't have been screwing with it in the first place.
-Prior to starting dryfire it's a good idea to check the firearm no less than 5 times. 3 times in the dryfire room after unloading the gun in the other room. Then set up dryfire targets, and check the gun 2 more times. Then say out loud "I'm going to dryfire." If you unload the gun, then set the targets you never have a loaded gun and targets at the same time. That's one less potential mistake.
-When I'm done dry firing I take everything down prior to leaving the room and loading the gun. Once again, it prevents having a loaded gun and a target at the same time.
-When reloading the gun say "Dryfire is over, Dryfire is over, Dryfire is over. This gun is loaded." It sounds stupid as hell. But saying it outload is a mental task that really makes you be present in the moment as you do it. And that's what you want. Loading, unloading, and administrative gun handling shouldn't be careless.

When you get comfortable with guns, you'll come up with your own ways to make sure you're safe. You'll get comfortable with the gun, and the habits will be what keep you out of trouble. Nobody is perfect, and I don't always follow all the best practices either. But I should, and I try to. My garage has concrete exterior walls that provide me with slightly more safety in my dryfire. Others dryfire in their basement so that if the day comes when they mess up they aren't sending a round into the neighbor's house. If I make a mistake, what will be the cost should be considered when you pick where you will dryfire and what direction.

---
You can't be certain you have a proper grip without live recoil, and you won't learn to shot call without shooting. That's knowing where your hit will be based on what you see and what you felt as you shot the gun. Learning to shot call is amazingly hard for me personally, I can't always do it. It simply can't be learned without seeing what the sights do when the gun fires. Your draw time will probably be slower. Your trigger pull can't be checked to see if it's correct without shooting.

You need to shoot, regardless of the challenges involved to know you're practicing dry fire correctly. WHEN (not if) you find that your live fire doesn't match up with your dryfire you need to get help. You need a trainer or a coach. As soon as folks here find out where you are located, the recommendations of where to turn will show up. Go get a training mentor.

---

You can learn a ton from dryfire. As well as free online resources. The information available is absolutely staggering. For books on the subject I recommend "Breakthrough Marksmanship" by Ben Stoeger. For podcasts look to Ballistic Radio with John Johnston as a great place to start. For blogs, I would look no further than pistol-training.com and the articles by our founder the late Todd Louis Green. For videos, I recommend Paul Gomez videos, Shivworks or Craig Douglas videos, Rob Leatham videos, Mike Seeklander videos, and some Ben Stoeger videos. You may find Bob Vogel videos helpful as well. For forums, man, you found it. This is the best place on the web for no bullshit learning about shooting. Make sure you read anything by Gabe White.

Welcome to the forum, I hope you stick around. Ask the questions. If it's been heard or asked a thousand times on this forum, that's cool with me. Because as a collective we might have learned something new since the last time there was someone who actually was new and wanted to learn.

[Shawn Dodson]

I suggest buying a Pink Rhino laser catridge and downloading the Dryfire Par Time Tracker app onto your phone. You can train with your own pistol instead of a BB gun or airsoft pistol.

Also buy a Barrelblok from Amazon so you can rack the slide without it locking open.

You can also buy a cheap laser boresight cartridge, which is constant "on" as opposed to momentary "on" when the firing pin strikes it, and teaming the boresight cartridge with a dryfire mag, if you don't want to rack the slide everytime.



Hi All, I'm a rank newbie with firearms and looking to build some level of basic skill with the Glock 19 I picked up for home defense a couple of years ago.

There are no firing ranges or personal instructor options convenient to my area, and my neighbors would definitely complain about noise if I trained using a real pistol.

I'm planning to start building my skills using a blowback airgun Glock, YouTube videos, and paper targets in my back yard (7 acres). Also, based on the videos I've watched so far, I'm thinking I want to learn on a red dot sight as the easiest way to get some ability to hit mid size targets in the 5 to 25 yard range.

I would welcome any advice about the feasibility of this approach and/or appropriateness of red dot. In particular, if I should get reasonably skilled with the airgun at hitting targets, will this translate to some degree of effectiveness with the real thing? If this is a reasonable approach I would especially appreciate recommendations for books, blogs, or online videos.

Thanks in advance for any advice. And please let me know if there is a more appropriate forum to post this kind of request to.

-Paul in Marble

[paul-mf]

Looks like I can post freely now. If anyone does notice my response from a couple days back that just appeared in the middle of the thread after a moderation gap, you can ignore those questions as they were answered by posts from NETim, cory, frozentundra, and others that came between me submitting my post and moderation. Thank you again everyone.


Wow, thank you everyone for the thoughtful and helpful responses. I thought this forum might be too advanced for a newbie and really appreciate the warm welcome.

I have shot our Glock on one occasion about 3 years ago at my mother in law's ranch. That side of the family does a good bit of hunting and gave me some bare bones gun safety instruction, but no marksmanship instruction whatsoever as they only shoot rifles. I was not by any means a natural-- with a 12" target about 5 or 6 yards out I managed to put only 3 of 15 rounds anywhere on it :p.

As for how the definition of "convenient" and location, here's the part where you will all want to slap me. In my defense before I fess up, I define 'convenient' pretty narrowly because I'd like to be able to practice daily or at least multiple times a week. I tend to be pretty intense and immersive with new hobbies. Okay, I'm running out of ways to avoid the question: I'm in central Texas about 2 hours outside of Austin. The nearest gun range is about 45 minutes drive, so I won't be using it more than once or twice a month at best. And frankly, I've been too intimidated to go to as a know-nothing. The range is closer to ranch land than to any sizeable city so I suspect everyone at it will be life-long shooters and perhaps not very tolerant of a "hobbyist".

Your guidance is firm and consistent about the importance of getting a real instructor. I'm sure Austin has dozens of options and I just need to suck it up and plan a 2 or 3 day trip around an intro course, perhaps one with an instructor who can do video follow up sessions.

If I haven't annoyed you too much by coming in as a Texan saying there are no "convenient" options, I do have a couple of follow up questions that I'd appreciate your thoughts on:

In general, would you consider dry practice better than airgun target practice? Intuitively, it seems like the feedback of whether I actually aimed correctly and managed to pull the trigger without disrupting the shot would be highly valuable. However, I don't want to actively undermine building my real skills if the differences in trigger, recoil, other dynamics are such that the airgun practice would do more harm than good.

Does a red dot sight seem like the best approach for my objectives? I have no iron sight skills or habits to unlearn, and I'm not worried about keeping up with batteries or ability to function without them.

[okie john]

You’re not being realistic about this.

We’re all know-nothings at some point, even those of us who have been doing this for years. For instance, I’m at least 20 years out of date on serious defensive revolver work. I’m about to get back on that horse, and I welcome the chance to be a white belt again.

Experienced shooters won’t be scornful or intolerant, they’ll welcome you to the fold and try to get you on the right track.

Once a week is plenty at first. With your level of experience, a 2-3 day course will almost definitely set you back--developing what Bill Jordan said would be an "...intense desire to take up golf." It will also be a huge waste of everyone’s time, so very few responsible instructors would work with you on that basis. In fact anyone who agrees to that is suspect by definition.

You should take a solid introductory course. It will cover the basics that you’re trying to develop through other means, but you’ll develop them a lot faster with a coach. You also won’t be the guy who perfected unsound/unsafe technique then has to unlearn it in a very public setting.


Okie John

[paul-mf]

You’re not being realistic about this.

We’re all know-nothings at some point, even those of us who have been doing this for years. For instance, I’m at least 20 years out of date on serious defensive revolver work. I’m about to get back on that horse, and I welcome the chance to be a white belt again.

Experienced shooters won’t be scornful or intolerant, they’ll welcome you to the fold and try to get you on the right track.

Once a week is plenty at first. With your level of experience, a 2-3 day course will almost definitely set you back--developing what Bill Jordan said would be an "...intense desire to take up golf." It will also be a huge waste of everyone’s time, so very few responsible instructors would work with you on that basis. In fact anyone who agrees to that is suspect by definition.

You should take a solid introductory course. It will cover the basics that you’re trying to develop through other means, but you’ll develop them a lot faster with a coach. You also won’t be the guy who perfected unsound/unsafe technique then has to unlearn it in a very public setting.


Okie John

Hi Okie John, appreciate the strong opinion here. I'm not sure how to interpret your recommendation, though. When you say a 2-3 day course would set me back and that I should take a solid introductory course I'm not clear on whether this means: a) 2-3 days is too short and I should take a longer more immersive course; or b) 2-3 days is too long for intro and that I should take a 1 day or 1/2 day intro course that is followed up with a coach who can work with me on the range on a weekly basis; or c) something else?

[psalms144.1]

Hi Okie John, appreciate the strong opinion here. I'm not sure how to interpret your recommendation, though. When you say a 2-3 day course would set me back and that I should take a solid introductory course I'm not clear on whether this means: a) 2-3 days is too short and I should take a longer more immersive course; or b) 2-3 days is too long for intro and that I should take a 1 day or 1/2 day intro course that is followed up with a coach who can work with me on the range on a weekly basis; or c) something else?I'm not Okie, but I have been a firearms instructor for just shy of 30 years, so I'll take a swing. I would URGE you to take one-on-one instruction, or a VERY basic group class. As a guy who teaches the latter for the NRA, I will tell you I think you'll get a lot LESS out of that than biting the bullet and paying for one-on-one.

I think what Okie is saying is not to go to a higher-level weekend class where the presumption is that you've already mastered most of the basics of safe gun handling and marksmanship.

[Chuck Whitlock]

paul-mf,

I would agree with psalms and Okie John...what they are saying is that your typical 2-3 day courses usually assume that you are arriving with a basic skill level. It will be like trying to drink from a fire hose, and you will be 1)struggling to keep up and 2) slowing the rest of the class.

You say that you are 2 hours outside Austin. That covers a lot of real estate. I'm ~ 3 hours from Austin, depending on traffic, and I'm in Corpus. So which cardinal direction you are from Austin might kinda matter, as that will determine how far you actually are from a given trainer/facility. Most of the folks who will actually be helpful to you won't be put off that you are green to gun handling, and those that will be are not the sort that you will want to learn from, anyway. I believe that there are a number of good places in Austin and San Antonio, and I'm sure other places. Others here will be more familiar with them than I will. There are number of Texans on P-F, and you might be close to one or more of us.

[okie john]

Hi Okie John, appreciate the strong opinion here. I'm not sure how to interpret your recommendation, though. When you say a 2-3 day course would set me back and that I should take a solid introductory course I'm not clear on whether this means: a) 2-3 days is too short and I should take a longer more immersive course; or b) 2-3 days is too long for intro and that I should take a 1 day or 1/2 day intro course that is followed up with a coach who can work with me on the range on a weekly basis; or c) something else?

Here's an example of a good introductory course: https://www.insightstraining.com/view_course.asp?courseID=4 It's ONE full day on the range and in and classroom, and it teaches you to safely handle and fire a pistol. It's designed for people in your shoes. FULL TRANSPARENCY NOTICE: I know the folks who own and run this school. I also know most of the instructors, I've worked with them in the military and civilian worlds, and I've trained with them.

A typical multi-day course is more like this: https://www.insightstraining.com/view_course.asp?courseID=146 When I took this course, we put 1,000 rounds of full-power pistol ammo downrange in two 10-hour training days over a weekend. A guy at your stage of evolution will be in over his head in 30 minutes, so the Introductory course is a pre-requisite for this.

Even if you could hang with the material, you'll be on the line with 12-15 other people. Each of them will fire 1k rounds in a weekend, so you'll be exposed to 12k-15k rounds of pistol fire on an indoor range. I was an active-duty Special Forces soldier for 6 1/2 years, and I can promise you that being around that much ammo being fired in that short a period of time will ring your chimes if you're not used to it. GDH teaches the technical skills that you need to become a genuine fucking menace to anyone who disturbs your peace should you decide that's what needs to happen. It begins the shift from shooting a pistol to fighting with it, so you'll learn the draw stroke, limited movement, some low-light work, etc. Even if your training stops at this level, you'll be a far more dangerous adversary than 99% of the gun owners in the US and many folks in law enforcement.

https://www.insightstraining.com/view_course.asp?courseID=8 is much more about fighting with a pistol than shooting it. This is where science becomes art, so it's the one you want to repeat every couple of years for the rest of your life. If you think of it in terms of learning a foreign language, this is where English falls away and you become a different person because you now think in the new language instead of just speaking it.

The shooting is the easy part IF you have a solid foundation going in, and the fastest way to get that foundation is to take classes like these. You can't really teach yourself this stuff.


Okie John

[CraigS]

I think you can definitely help yourself w/ a BB gun clone of your actual pistol. You will need to research how the gun operates to make sure it works exactly like your gun. Look here;
https://www.pyramydair.com/air-guns/pistols/co2-guns
In my case we shoot Beretta 92s. A CO2 pellet gun had some funky circular plastic magazine that fit into the center of the gun and held 6-8 pellets. Completely unrealistic. A CO2 BB gun is fantastic. The CO2 canister and 18 BBs fit in a magazine like piece that slides into the grip just like a real 92. The mag as well as the entire loaded gun weighs within a few ounces of the real 92. No you can't learn to deal w/ recoil, but every other move from handling and loading, to drawing to the first shot is identical to the real gun so I find it VERY helpful. I especially like that I get a medium moving box, put a small inside of it, tape a paper plate on the side and can shoot as many BBS as I want in the basement.

[paul-mf]

paul-mf,

I would agree with psalms and Okie John...what they are saying is that your typical 2-3 day courses usually assume that you are arriving with a basic skill level. It will be like trying to drink from a fire hose, and you will be 1)struggling to keep up and 2) slowing the rest of the class.

. . .

You say that you are 2 hours outside Austin.


Thanks for the clarification on the courses. I definitely don't want to slow down whatever class I'm in. If I don't find a 1:1 instructor I will start with a basic group intro course.

I'm northwest of Austin, in the Llano area.

[okie john]

Thanks for the clarification on the courses. I definitely don't want to slow down whatever class I'm in. If I don't find a 1:1 instructor I will start with a basic group intro course.

I'm northwest of Austin, in the Llano area.

I've done business with the folks at https://www.apacherifleworks.com/ Give them a shout.


Okie John

[paul-mf]

Hi all, thought I'd update on what I've taken away from the feedback thus far, and as always, welcome feedback on where I'm getting things wrong.

First off, thank you again for all the helpful posts. frozentundra thank you for introducing me to Paul Gomez, Craig Douglas, and Dave Spaulding's videos, and Cory your followup advice really resonates with me. I most definitely had not given proper (okay, any) consideration to draw or general safely practices. Shawn Dodson, thanks for pointing me in the direction of the tech options for at home training.

My takeaways thus far based on feedback here and follow up research:

get basic safety and handling training from a (good) professional before practicing too much on my own.
if possible, get a personal instructor who can work with me at the range, or as fallback, over video
Get to a live range at least once a month
dry fire is better than airsoft for home practice
software over hardware -- don't change guns; a higher $ firearm is not going to make me better nearly effectively as training and practice


My current plan:

find a quality 1-day beginner course
practice trigger discipline, draw to sight alignment and dry fire daily
Add a Mantis X Elite to help with understanding draw and fire mechanics for both dry and live practice
Add a dryfiremag to allow multi-shot practice, some level of recoil feedback, and to avoid ingraining bad habits associated with racking between every shot
For single shot skills, remove the dryfiremag and use dryfireonline.com with a pink rhino laser to build single shot skills. (might be missing something, but it doesn't look like there is a way to use the dryfiremag with a laser system, so I have to choose between training multi-shot and chamber advance without target accuracy feedback OR target accuracy with the requirement that I rack between every shot.)

[Noah]

Hi all, thought I'd update on what I've taken away from the feedback thus far, and as always, welcome feedback on where I'm getting things wrong.

First off, thank you again for all the helpful posts. frozentundra thank you for introducing me to Paul Gomez, Craig Douglas, and Dave Spaulding's videos, and Cory your followup advice really resonates with me. I most definitely had not given proper (okay, any) consideration to draw or general safely practices. Shawn Dodson, thanks for pointing me in the direction of the tech options for at home training.

My takeaways thus far based on feedback here and follow up research:

get basic safety and handling training from a (good) professional before practicing too much on my own.
if possible, get a personal instructor who can work with me at the range, or as fallback, over video
Get to a live range at least once a month
dry fire is better than airsoft for home practice
software over hardware -- don't change guns; a higher $ firearm is not going to make me better nearly effectively as training and practice


My current plan:

find a quality 1-day beginner course
practice trigger discipline, draw to sight alignment and dry fire daily
Add a Mantis X Elite to help with understanding draw and fire mechanics for both dry and live practice
Add a dryfiremag to allow multi-shot practice, some level of recoil feedback, and to avoid ingraining bad habits associated with racking between every shot
For single shot skills, remove the dryfiremag and use dryfireonline.com with a pink rhino laser to build single shot skills. (might be missing something, but it doesn't look like there is a way to use the dryfiremag with a laser system, so I have to choose between training multi-shot and chamber advance without target accuracy feedback OR target accuracy with the requirement that I rack between every shot.)



If every new gun owner did even a quarter of those things, the world would be a different place.

One piece of advice- you don't need a dryfiremag for a Glock. You can get a 3d printed piece of plastic on ebay or use a sliver of cards took to hold the breech slightly open and the trigger will work very similarly to a dryfiremag where you can simulate multiple shots.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/124558635969

Maybe I'm just poor, but I do all my dryfire with a weighted inert training mag to keep the same weight, and an ebay 3d printed piece to get repeat trigger manipulation. I don't use any mantis or laser systems, and instead focus on shot calling off my sights or dot in relation to the spot I'm looking at on the target, to build shot calling skill that carries over to live fire.

I don't care for visible laser dryfire systems because they aren't replicating the live fire experience.

Maybe that is a more advanced skill and others consider the laser and Mantis systems important, I'll let them weigh in on that.

If budget is no object at all, go for it, as a Mantis could be good for slow fire and then a drill called "trigger control at speed" you can find on Ben Stoegers YouTube.

[CraigS]

We got a Mantis X maybe 4 months ago. We use the sensor adapter to mount it on a magazine baseplate so we can easily switch from her gun to mine and back. It is kind of useful to see the gun tracking diagram after each draw and shot, and of course the time. We may not have tried all it's various uses, but for me I'd rather practice w/ my BBgun. I can call my hits via the sights well enough but the Mantis is still a one shot deal. W/ the BB gun, although there is no recoil I can shoot multiple shots because mine cycles the slide just like a real pistol.

[SouthNarc]

Thanks for the clarification on the courses. I definitely don't want to slow down whatever class I'm in. If I don't find a 1:1 instructor I will start with a basic group intro course.

I'm northwest of Austin, in the Llano area.

If you're in Llano go here and take this class first.

https://therangeaustin.com/shop1/new-pistol-shooter/

Jeff Gonzales did all the instructor development for the entire staff of The Range in Austin and created all of those classes.

That class is perfect for your needs, can be taken on week-nights if you want, is inexpensive, and is within an hour's drive.

[Clusterfrack]

paul-mf, take this advice. FYI SouthNarc is one of P-F's subject matter experts, and one of the very best instructors worldwide.

[Flamingo]

paul-mf Craig has a great suggestion, but I PMed you an instructor that is closer to you and someone I wholeheartedly recommend.

[paul-mf]

SouthNarc, okie john, thank you for the class recommendations.

Noah, CraigS thanks for the laser and dry fire training thoughts. I should have mentioned that I went with the invisible infrared IR laser dryfiremag and iDryfire Pro camera system to avoid training on unrealistic laser dot feedback. I do keep each mag full of snap caps to help with weight realism. So basically it is:

Dummy rounds for weight and some amount of racking and reload practice
MantisX for motion tracking and timing feedback
Smart DryFireMag for trigger reset and IR laser source
iDryFire Pro for target hit feedback on arbitrary targets
A couple of reactive IR targets for immediate feedback that doesn't require me to go back to the laptop screen every time.
After all of this is set up I'll test whether the iDryFire Pro cameras can pick up an IR dot on my front projection screen while an image is being projected, and if so, will experiment with using dryfireonline.com for (still only) target practice on targets at varying distances and sizes.


Regarding live fire practice with a bb gun, for now I think I'll stick with the range for live fire work. I am curious about whether a suppressor on the Glock could make it quiet enough for me to practice without annoying the neighbors, closest one being about 200 yards away with a minimum of 50 yards of tree and underbrush separating open spaces on our properties. Our property has a nearly ideal range setup area that would allow for about a 75 yard firing line that is straight into a 100' hillside. If I were to miss a shot so badly that I cleared the hill it would go between two neighbors (also about 200 yards apart), and if I flubbed badly enough that it was also aimed at one of the houses I'm fairly sure that the vertical trajectory would be so steep that it couldn't hit either house. Of course this would be 6+ months out as I have not even started the application process yet, though I hope to build enough skill between dryfire and the half dozen or more range visits between now and any possible suppressor arrival that by the time one might I arrive I'll be in a place to benefit from self training live fire to continue to advance my skills.

[CraigS]

Paul I will be interested to see how you like the laser practice systems. I have thought about them but since our range is only 30 min away haven't spent the $. While I have never sot a pistol w/ a can. I know is definitely changes the weight and the weight balance so not sure how useful it would be. Hopefully others will chime in.

[1Rangemaster]

KR Training, under the direction of Karl Rehn, is in the Austin area. Single and partial day instruction available. He has also written a book which you might find pretty interesting. There seems to be a lot of good activity in Texas- but then, it’s Texas!
Go get whatever you choose now, or as soon as you can! I’m envious that you have property to consider training on, but please go get instruction while your interest is piqued and life allows you to.
Regarding the mention of Karl Rehn: I’m of the opinion that one should take instruction from notable instructors as you can. Many times I’ve gotten something to work on, even from a “basic” class.
Best of luck on your journey

[Default.mp3]

Regarding live fire practice with a bb gun, for now I think I'll stick with the range for live fire work. I am curious about whether a suppressor on the Glock could make it quiet enough for me to practice without annoying the neighbors, closest one being about 200 yards away with a minimum of 50 yards of tree and underbrush separating open spaces on our properties. Our property has a nearly ideal range setup area that would allow for about a 75 yard firing line that is straight into a 100' hillside. If I were to miss a shot so badly that I cleared the hill it would go between two neighbors (also about 200 yards apart), and if I flubbed badly enough that it was also aimed at one of the houses I'm fairly sure that the vertical trajectory would be so steep that it couldn't hit either house. Of course this would be 6+ months out as I have not even started the application process yet, though I hope to build enough skill between dryfire and the half dozen or more range visits between now and any possible suppressor arrival that by the time one might I arrive I'll be in a place to benefit from self training live fire to continue to advance my skills.Suppressors on handguns are basically a novelty for the most part, they significantly change the balance of the gun. It would also make learning how to draw from a holster much more difficult, due to the difficulty in sourcing a proper holster for such a set-up, along with probably changing the draw stroke to something quite awkward given the extra length at the end of the gun. With a decent full-sized suppressor and subsonic ammo, you could probably shoot in your backyard without much issue in terms of noise, but I don't think it's a very good investment from a training perspective given all the limitations of a suppressed handgun.

Once you get comfortable enough and proficient enough to be safe, consider trying out some competition shooting, if you're self-aware enough to be able to segregate competition from self-defense and are honest with what you're doing enough that you won't just try to game your actions just to try to do better in competition. You can meet more experienced shooters, while getting some decent trigger time in, while learning to shoot under some sort of pressure. Something like Steel Challenge is fairly easy to get into, with much less rules and thinking involved than something like USPSA or even IDPA.

[Ed L]

paul-mf, I think your money would be much better spent on firearms instruction than on any of the expensive training aids on your list. The range that SouthNarc mentioned is certainly good, as is or Karl Rehn who 1Rangemaster mentioned (https://www.krtraining.com/) ; or some place comparable. Given what you have described, lessons are more important than anything else.

You could opt for private lessons. The range that Southnarc mentioned offers 1 hr lessons for $129 and 1.5 Hr lessons for $179: https://therangeaustin.com/shop1/private-instruction/. Private lessons move faster than a class and cover more things because the instructor only has one or two people to work with. You can also gear the lessons to focus on your specific interest or need. I imagine a 2-3 hours of private instruction would cover everything you need. Privates are also better if you are self conscious about your shooting, as you have mentioned not wanting to go to a public range because you are self conscious about your shooting. So I think the most important thing is to get hands-on training so that this is no longer the case. You are not going to be able to get that from any of the training aid or gadget that you have mentioned. Go get some instruction. You will be very happy afterwards. As I have said, instructors are accustomed to people who have never shot a gun.

From how you have described your shooting, It is about on par with someone who shoots a gun for the first time without any training. Nothing to be embarrassed about. Most shooters at ranges don't pay attention to how other people shoot. So I would not be self conscious about it. Gun owners and instructors are accustomed to seeing people without any shooting experience. In fact, if you were to look at the targets on a large public shooting range I have no doubt that you would see people shooting at your level. So it is nothing to worry about in a beginner class since you will be around people at similar levels.

You have everything you need with the Glock 19. Now you just need the training.

[paul-mf]

paul-mf, I think your money would be much better spent on firearms instruction than on any of the expensive training aids on your list.
. . .Given what you have described, lessons are more important than anything else.

You could opt for private lessons.


Thank you, Ed L. I'm fortunate to be able to go with both paths, private lessons at the range on a monthly basis, and at home training aids for daily practice. FWIW, the training aids aren't as expensive as intimated in some earlier posts, only about $700 in total; quickly offset by range fees and ammo cost, not to mention that time constraints wouldn't allow me to go to the range every day even if it was free.

Default.mp3, I also have concerns about the suppressor changing dynamics. I guess my main question is, does the value of getting true recoil and report plus real-world shot accuracy feedback outweigh the downside of having a different weight and different holster for training? (this assumes a suppressed report without hearing protection is roughly equal to an unsuppressed report with protection).

The idea of competition shooting is interesting. I don't see doing this until my solo par and accuracy are at least roughly in range for the bottom quartile, but I can see the huge value potential of ratcheting up the stress level to get closer to what might happen in a real world personal defense situation.

[Default.mp3]

@Default.mp3 (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=1132), I also have concerns about the suppressor changing dynamics. I guess my main question is, does the value of getting true recoil and report plus real-world shot accuracy feedback outweigh the downside of having a different weight and different holster for training? (this assumes a suppressed report without hearing protection is roughly equal to an unsuppressed report with protection).I strongly feel that a pistol can would not be useful. The balance being exceedingly off would almost certainly translate fairly poorly to shooting without the suppressor in terms of recoil management, while most of the other finer points of shooting and gunhandling can be done dry. I am quite confident that most people would agree with this assessment.


The idea of competition shooting is interesting. I don't see doing this until my solo par and accuracy are at least roughly in range for the bottom quartile, but I can see the huge value potential of ratcheting up the stress level to get closer to what might happen in a real world personal defense situation.By definition, you're already in the bottom quartile, amirite. I would also offer that competition shooting could also get you more comfortable more quickly, as you will have external feedback, both on what you're doing right and what you're doing wrong.

[paul-mf]

I strongly feel that a pistol can would not be useful. The balance being exceedingly off would almost certainly translate fairly poorly to shooting without the suppressor in terms of recoil management, while most of the other finer points of shooting and gunhandling can be done dry. I am quite confident that most people would agree with this assessment.


sounds definitive: a suppressor would modify handling dynamics too much to be useful for improving skills without the can.



By definition, you're already in the bottom quartile, amirite.

LOL, can't argue with that. I should have written 3rd quartile, or something that captures "not so terrible that I'm wasting everyone's time".

[paul-mf]

Another newbie question: is there a term for a 'draw' that is from a tabletop or flat surface? One of my real world scenarios will be retrieving the pistol from its flat biometric safe and wanting to get into ready position quickly. Also, I won't necessarily want to get out the belt and holster for every dry fire practice session and will be repeatedly setting down and picking up the pistol from the table in my 'shooting' room.

The videos on drawing from a holster that frozentundra and others linked earlier were incredibly helpful but I can't seem to find any similar videos for 'draw' from a flat surface. My current technique is an awkward fumble fest where I pick up with my firing hand, move the thumb from back to side of gun, whack straight down on the rear sights with my support hand to get a tent in the web of my thumb, then bring the gun against my chest to pick up count 2 of a holster draw. I'm thinking there must be videos and posts on how to quickly and safely get to ready from a table top pick up but I'm clearly not using the right search terms to find these.

[Chuck Whitlock]

paul-mf

picking up a loaded gun from a flat surface is a dangerous undertaking. Elsewhere here on Pistol-Forum, there are one or more discussions about negligent discharges that happen in competitions from this activity. A loaded handgun needs to be in a holster or at the very least have something that covers the trigger guard, such as the Raven Vanguard or Dale Fricke Zacchaeus.

https://rcsgear.com/product/vanguard-2-lanyard-kit/

https://dalefrickeholsters.com/product/zacchaeus-concealment-holster/

[frozentundra]

Another newbie question: is there a term for a 'draw' that is from a tabletop or flat surface? One of my real world scenarios will be retrieving the pistol from its flat biometric safe and wanting to get into ready position quickly. Also, I won't necessarily want to get out the belt and holster for every dry fire practice session and will be repeatedly setting down and picking up the pistol from the table in my 'shooting' room.

The videos on drawing from a holster that frozentundra and others linked earlier were incredibly helpful but I can't seem to find any similar videos for 'draw' from a flat surface. My current technique is an awkward fumble fest where I pick up with my firing hand, move the thumb from back to side of gun, whack straight down on the rear sights with my support hand to get a tent in the web of my thumb, then bring the gun against my chest to pick up count 2 of a holster draw. I'm thinking there must be videos and posts on how to quickly and safely get to ready from a table top pick up but I'm clearly not using the right search terms to find these.

I'm certainly not an expert to be advising people about what's right and wrong. I can sometimes point to great examples of true experts explaining information that I think is especially relevant to a situation, but here I can only give an unqualified opinion, which should be taken with a grain of salt.

I like to have a dummy plastic "blue gun", in a clip-on style holster, for a lot of my practice. I like doing ShivWorks 4 count style draw stroke, a robust trigger finger register position, with a VERY hard grip (think strength training exercise), to a sight picture acquisition, and a "trigger pull" that consists of quickly ramping very heavy isometric tension onto the immobile plastic trigger without disturbing the sights too much. I use way more power than would be required to pull the trigger on a typical Glock, while gripping VERY hard. I find this to be more beneficial than just dry fire with an actual functioning trigger. Of course, I also practice dry fire on a real trigger as well, but I do much of it on a blue gun. Again, I think of this as strength training. I want to see the grip texture being imprinted into my skin and nearly shaking with grip effort on press out to count 4. I don't need a ton of reps, but I want to do at least a few good ones every day. Blue guns are really nice because they do not require secure storage and will always be safer than using an unloaded real gun. You can just pick it up, clip the holster into any waistband, and do a few reps.

Personally, I always leave my real pistols in the holster when putting them in a safe. In my opinion, a gun without a holster is simply less versatile and thus less useful than a gun/holster combination. I don't care where I am, it's nice to have an immediate place to safely secure the gun if I need two hands free. To me, this is not unique to concealed carry applications at all. If I don't have a holster for a gun, it's not useful to me at home.

I try to keep a pair of pants around my bedroom at night that are quite fast to pull on and that will support a holster with Discrete Carry Concepts clips without a belt. For me, this is Duluth Trading Flex Firehose pants. If something weird is going on, and I have time, I'd like to throw on some pants and have a holstered gun and handheld flashlight versus running around naked with a pistol in the dark. At least I want the option. There aren't many ways to stow a gun while naked :(

Gomez had some videos floating around about strong hand and weak hand only stoppage reductions and reloads that were associated with his Robust Pistol Manipulations curriculum.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJQY8v9V6AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCIKHOcGLPo
It's not picking loaded guns off tables, but it's pretty interesting stuff that has to do with single hand manipulations of a pistol under extreme duress. These are the kind of things that could really save your life in an emergency, but very few people ever think about or practice such things. This can be practiced with inert/dummy training ammunition, and you can do it at home for free.

Everyone wants to focus on sight alignment and trigger pull, but I think a stellar GRIP, and a comprehensive, robust system of GUN HANDLING SKILLS that embody the 4 rules of firearm safety, are actually where it's at. Sight pictures and trigger pulls are just icing and sprinkles. At least that's what I think.

[paul-mf]

Chuck Whitlock, frozentundra,

Thanks for your extra level of patience with my "draw from a table top" question. I can tell it is one of those beginner questions that is so far off base it can be a bit exhausting to construct a polite answer. I wasn't finding videos or forum tips on how to 'table draw' because it's not a thing. I was basically asking the equivalent of how to get faster at texting while driving.

Thinking things through, I can see that this is covered under the umbrella of "Treat All Guns as Though They are Loaded", but as a beginner starting with online resources it's a little embarrassing that it's taken me this long (probably 40+ hours of reading, 20+ hours of videos) to start to understand the wider implications of what it means to "treat a firearm as if it is loaded". I'm sure in person instruction (next week, btw) will address this and more.

For my household I'm contemplating a 5th rule along the lines of

"a loaded pistol may only be in one of two places: a holster or in your ready grip"
Or perhaps

"always remove the mag and clear the chamber before setting down your pistol"

To be clear, there will be no live ammo loaded in my house until I'm through at least a couple of instruction sessions. And I don't plan to keep live ammo in the gun at any time except when it is holstered in my bedside safe or on my person.

[Noah]

Chuck Whitlock, frozentundra,

Thanks for your extra level of patience with my "draw from a table top" question. I can tell it is one of those beginner questions that is so far off base it can be a bit exhausting to construct a polite answer. I wasn't finding videos or forum tips on how to 'table draw' because it's not a thing. I was basically asking the equivalent of how to get faster at texting while driving.

Thinking things through, I can see that this is covered under the umbrella of "Treat All Guns as Though They are Loaded", but as a beginner starting with online resources it's a little embarrassing that it's taken me this long (probably 40+ hours of reading, 20+ hours of videos) to start to understand the wider implications of what it means to "treat a firearm as if it is loaded". I'm sure in person instruction (next week, btw) will address this and more.

For my household I'm contemplating a 5th rule along the lines of

"a loaded pistol may only be in one of two places: a holster or in your ready grip"
Or perhaps

"always remove the mag and clear the chamber before setting down your pistol"

To be clear, there will be no live ammo loaded in my house until I'm through at least a couple of instruction sessions. And I don't plan to keep live ammo in the gun at any time except when it is holstered in my bedside safe or on my person.

Actually I don't think your question was off base at all! Look up USPSA table start on Youtube and read the thread that was linked.

I'd suggest the first rule- every single time you remove the live gun from the holster to empty it, you're undertaking in administrative handling with the risk of a mistake.

Although it is a little counterintuitive, just leaving the gun loaded but in the holster is actually much safer. You simply put the safe gun/holster combo on your person, take it off together to put the whole gun and holster in the safe. Bottom line, gun stays in the holster as much as possible. In most cases, a loaded gun in a good holster is safer than repeated administrative handling (loading and unloading). As others said, table/in a safe starts are a real thing in the world and in pistol sports, however, a holster or simple trigger guard cover makes it much safer.

I only load/unload my gun in the house to dry fire or work on it/clean it when needed. Otherwise it lives in its holster, in a safe when not on my person.

[HCM]

Chuck Whitlock, frozentundra,

Thanks for your extra level of patience with my "draw from a table top" question. I can tell it is one of those beginner questions that is so far off base it can be a bit exhausting to construct a polite answer. I wasn't finding videos or forum tips on how to 'table draw' because it's not a thing. I was basically asking the equivalent of how to get faster at texting while driving.

Thinking things through, I can see that this is covered under the umbrella of "Treat All Guns as Though They are Loaded", but as a beginner starting with online resources it's a little embarrassing that it's taken me this long (probably 40+ hours of reading, 20+ hours of videos) to start to understand the wider implications of what it means to "treat a firearm as if it is loaded". I'm sure in person instruction (next week, btw) will address this and more.

For my household I'm contemplating a 5th rule along the lines of

"a loaded pistol may only be in one of two places: a holster or in your ready grip"
Or perhaps

"always remove the mag and clear the chamber before setting down your pistol"

To be clear, there will be no live ammo loaded in my house until I'm through at least a couple of instruction sessions. And I don't plan to keep live ammo in the gun at any time except when it is holstered in my bedside safe or on my person.

The “4 rules” work and endure because of their simplicity, brevity and the fact you usually need to violate more than one of them at any one time to have a particularly bad outcome.

The default assumption that any time you relinquish control of a gun it’s treated as loaded is the primary context but guns are tools for application of force when necessary. So the correlation to that is ensuring a gun IS loaded when is is supposed to be.

Storing guns unloaded is fine for recreational uses. Defensive or duty guns need to be loaded to fulfill their purpose.

As noted, “table starts” and “unloaded table starts” have some additional risk even under the self imposed stress of competition. The stress of a defensive situation requiring a firearm is normally higher. There is also the risk that a rapid load in a defensive situation will be fumbled or induce a malfunction.

The more administrative handling you do (loading /unloading) the greater the odds of an issue. The other issue is loading and unloading the same rounds over and over can also damage the rounds. Specifically bullets can get pushed back into the case and repeated impacts can damage the primer and render it inoperative.

Loading a defense gun ahead of time and securing the loaded gun in a lock box or holster (as dictated by your circumstances is preferable.

Loading ahead of time, when not underdress also allows you to conduct a pre-operational check on the gun i.e. ensuring around as chambered and ensuring the magazine is fully seated and locked in place.

This is why you see most law-enforcement agencies issuing lockboxes to officers instead of things like cable locks. It’s also why you’ll find lockboxes at places where officers need to disarm, such as courthouses, jails, etc.. take the little gun out of the holster, put it in the lock box lock it up. Unlock the lock box, put the loaded gun in the holster is the simplest and safest handling strategy.

[psalms144.1]

Yet another vote against excess handling of the firearm. All of my defensive handguns are loaded, all the time. When they're not on my body, they're in a lock box next to my bed. If I had a nickle for every time I've seen/heard/investigated negligent discharges that occurred in "clearing barrels", I'd be a very wealthy dude. I only administratively unload my pistols when I'm swapping from duty/carry ammo to range ammo at the range.

Not only to excessive loading/unloading increase the likelihood of mishaps, it increases dramatically the chance of experiencing bullet set back - a condition where the projectile is pushed back slightly into the case every time it runs up the feed ramp. This can result in critically over-seated bullets which can lead to catastrophic pressure increases. I've seen measurable set back occur in less than three loadings of a single cartridge. Because of this I usually only "unload" the chamber of my pistol if the range has a hard "cold line" policy. Otherwise I just pop out the magazine of duty/carry ammunition, load with a magazine of range ammo, and sacrifice the top round of duty/carry ammo. Small price to pay to avoid the possibility of something really bad happening.

[frozentundra]

Chuck Whitlock, frozentundra,

Thanks for your extra level of patience with my "draw from a table top" question. I can tell it is one of those beginner questions that is so far off base it can be a bit exhausting to construct a polite answer. I wasn't finding videos or forum tips on how to 'table draw' because it's not a thing. I was basically asking the equivalent of how to get faster at texting while driving.


I think that was an extremely good question, and I was quite curious what other feedback you would receive. In fact, all of your questions that I've seen have been interesting, worth asking, and I've been curious to see the replies. Good job, man. In post #36 of this thread, you even got a very specific personal recommendation from one of the most knowledgeable firearm/combatives instructors in the country! If you follow up on that advice, you're off and running!

I don't personally have any kind of strict prohibition against setting a loaded gun down and picking it back up again. However, high quality holsters are so implicitly connected with handgun use for me that I don't usually have occasion to do that outside of a holster. The gun just lives in the holster.

On a related note, here is some commonly used holster terminology that may be useful to know.
OWB - Outside Waist Band- the entire holster hangs off the outside of a belt, outside of your pants
IWB - Inside Waist Band- holster goes inside pants, just like it sounds, and usually attaches to a belt or clips onto pants
AIWB- Appendix Inside Waist Band- just like IWB, but specifically designed to be worn forward of the hips

For a lot of my practice, I actually prefer to use an IWB holster design, but I wear it outside of the pants and inside of the belt, if that makes sense. IWB holsters are often less large/bulky than OWB holsters, which is quite nice for holstered storage in a small handgun safe.

One of the best examples of an IWB holster would be a JM Custom Kydex IWB3 holster. This company is a site sponsor and a crowd favorite here. Many of us will have copies of this holster for most of our guns.
A great example of an OWB holster would be a Raven Concealment Perun.
AIWB isn't a place I would start when new to working out of the holster, but that's just me.

Dark Star Gear, Philster, JM Custom, Tennicore, are some other great manufacturers that actually know how to build gear for people who use it.

[CraigS]

Storing guns unloaded is fine for recreational uses. Defensive or duty guns need to be loaded to fulfill their purpose.

Loading ahead of time, when not underdress also allows you to conduct a pre-operational check on the gun i.e. ensuring around as chambered and ensuring the magazine is fully seated and locked in place.

Loading a defense gun ahead of time and securing the loaded gun in a lock box or holster (as dictated by your circumstances is preferable.


This is how we do our night defensive pistols. In a lockbox, sitting under the bed, and cabled to the bed. To illustrate the importance of the doing it ahead of time while not under stress; Our lock box has a simplex lock w/ 5 buttons. I need to push two at a time twice to unlock it. Pretty dang simple. One night we heard a noise outside the house loud enough to wake us both up. I slide out of bed and start unlocking the box. 4 tries later I had it open. OK, now I have a pistol in my hand and sure glad I don't now need to load it. That was 9 years ago. Since then I unlock the box every night as I get in bed and slide it out from under. Next AM I lock it again and slide it away. BTW I slide it about a foot out from under the bed. Makes it easy to grab if needed but I also ensures that I see it when making the bed next AM so I remember to lock and hide it again.

[paul-mf]

I think that was an extremely good question, and I was quite curious what other feedback you would receive. In fact, all of your questions that I've seen have been interesting, worth asking, and I've been curious to see the replies. Good job, man. In post #36 of this thread, you even got a very specific personal recommendation from one of the most knowledgeable firearm/combatives instructors in the country! If you follow up on that advice, you're off and running!

. . .


frozentundra and everyone else who's been so supportive, thanks a ton for the positive feedback. Won't say I've earned it, but I am beginning to figure out that having SouthNarc chime in at this early stage in my journey is a bit like having Rafael Nadal offer advice on training for my pickleball skills. Definitely an I'm Not Worthy moment. Thank you again to everyone for such a warm welcome.

I do have a couple of follow up questions for you or anyone in the group willing to chime in:

1. With the table start hints above I found the Lena Miculek video on "MUST HAVE DRILLS before your 1ST RANGE TIME! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CjRJbsTzcY)". It struck me as credible and I have been following these recommendations for table start as well as general handling practice in advance of my first in-person instruction. Any qualifiers or other reservations about her advice that I should keep in mind?

2. I'm also looking at a Benelli 1014 for primary home defense, with the Glock as a concealed carry option outside the home. But I haven't yet found a long gun forum that seems as credible and level headed as this one. Any recommendations for other forums that might provide similar-- or at least not terrible-- guidance on shotgun and rifle skills?

As always, thanks in advance for your feedback.

-Paul

[Default.mp3]

2. I'm also looking at a Benelli 1014 for primary home defense, with the Glock as a concealed carry option outside the home. But I haven't yet found a long gun forum that seems as credible and level headed as this one. Any recommendations for other forums that might provide similar-- or at least not terrible-- guidance on shotgun and rifle skills?Why a shotgun for home defense? Why a Benelli 1014 if it has to be a shotgun?

I'm not a big shotgun person; I think many of us here would steer toward an AR-15 for home defense. That being said, a shotgun, especially a semi-auto shotgun, can be a very viable home defense weapon, and we have plenty of knowledgeable members that would take a shotgun over a rifle for home defense. However, while the 1014 is considered a high quality firearm, it's largely been overshadowed by the Beretta 1301 for the past half decade, and I'm not aware of any real compelling practical reason to go with a 1014 over a 1301.

In terms of different forums... honestly, this is where I would stick to. M4Carbine has fallen extremely far from where it used to be, and is only occasionally worthwhile. Lightfighter has fallen to a lesser extent but still no longer all that great, especially with it being much less active. ar15.com has a lot of gold, and infinitely more shit around that gold that you'd have to wade through to get to it, so definitely not worth it. Yeah, it's pistol-forum, but lots of folks here are pretty fucking good with rifles and shotguns. Some places have an edge for something more niche, like SnipersHide for precision long range shooting or ar15.com's night vision subforum for, uh, night vision, but for general duty/self-defense purposes, PF really is an oasis.

I don't fuck with Reddit, and barely touch Facebook, so dunno about the communities there very well.

[paul-mf]

Why a shotgun for home defense? Why a Benelli 1014 if it has to be a shotgun?

I'm not a big shotgun person; I think many of us here would steer toward an AR-15 for home defense. That being said, a shotgun, especially a semi-auto shotgun, can be a very viable home defense weapon, and we have plenty of knowledgeable members that would take a shotgun over a rifle for home defense. However, while the 1014 is considered a high quality firearm, it's largely been overshadowed by the Beretta 1301 for the past half decade, and I'm not aware of any real compelling practical reason to go with a 1014 over a 1301.

In terms of different forums... honestly, this is where I would stick to. M4Carbine has fallen extremely far from where it used to be, and is only occasionally worthwhile. Lightfighter has fallen to a lesser extent but still no longer all that great, especially with it being much less active. ar15.com has a lot of gold, and infinitely more shit around that gold that you'd have to wade through to get to it, so definitely not worth it. Yeah, it's pistol-forum, but lots of folks here are pretty fucking good with rifles and shotguns. Some places, like SnipersHide, has an edge for something like precision long range shooting, but for general duty/self-defense purposes, PF really is an oasis.

Default.mp3 My thinking on the shotgun is that shotguns have handling forgiveness built in, and that in the stress of a home defense situation I may be likely to forget most if not all of my training discipline. With a shotgun, if I get into the generally right area, I'm more likely to stop or at least distract an opponent than I would with a complete miss using a pistol or AR. Perhaps an implicit assumption here is that home defense will most likely involve unexpected close-quarters encounters. I do think an AR is the better option for controlled, longer distance scenarios, just not looking to optimize for those first.

Regarding 1014 vs 1301, my ever-so-valuable internet research seems to indicate a draw on the factors I consider most important: reliability with assorted ordinance, and ability to use at longer range when appropriate. In a world where ultimate capability seems to be equal I devolve to considering aesthetics, and on this front the Benelli is a definitive winner for my taste. Moderators, feel justified in ejecting from this forum for allowing aesthetics to be a consideration.

[Noah]

Default.mp3 My thinking on the shotgun is that shotguns have handling forgiveness built in, and that in the stress of a home defense situation I may be likely to forget most if not all of my training discipline. With a shotgun, if I get into the generally right area, I'm more likely to stop or at least distract an opponent than I would with a complete miss using a pistol or AR. Perhaps an implicit assumption here is that home defense will most likely involve unexpected close-quarters encounters. I do think an AR is the better option for controlled, longer distance scenarios, just not looking to optimize for those first.

Regarding 1014 vs 1301, my ever-so-valuable internet research seems to indicate a draw on the factors I consider most important: reliability with assorted ordinance, and ability to use at longer range when appropriate. In a world where ultimate capability seems to be equal I devolve to considering aesthetics, and on this front the Benelli is a definitive winner for my taste. Moderators, feel justified in ejecting from this forum for allowing aesthetics to be a consideration.

Inside of 25+/- yards, a good 12 gauge is the most effective shoulder fired weapon available, per trigger pull.

The shotgun section of Pistol Forum is probably the best defensive shotgun forum on the internet!

But "handling forgiveness" is a misnomer. With bad buckshot, you'll be getting about 1" of spread per yard, and with actual good buckshot like Federal Flight Control, you'll have a fist size group at 25y and a very tight 1 or 2" hole at all room distances. You still have to aim it just as precisely as an AR.

Extremely effective, but a good AR will be less costly and won't have much of a recoil component to learn, and manual of arms (reloading from magazines, with a bolt lock/last shot hold open) is more intuitive coming from a pistol.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

One needs to train up with a shotgun. The nuance of the two guns is trivial. It is not a trivial exercise to run a shotgun well. Yes, folks defend themselves with such and little training but that's not the p-f mindset. Running, maneuvering through a house, dealing with all the other things you do in house defense - how to make a phone call - for example with a long arm. Where to keep it - so you can get to it, etc.

Tom Givens, TCinVA and others run quality shotgun classes. I don't think watching videos does it - you have to lift it up, feel the boom, etc. Then shoot it in a match or two. Side bar - used to run a shotgun side match after the IDPA match. We ran a minimatch here for carry guns and then a stage or two mixed with handgun and shotgun. Some guys - wah, wah - I don't have a shotgun (WHAT!) can I just shoot my gamer gun for the whole match.

I wouldn't get one until I was really dialed in with the handgun, you certainly can defend your house with a G19 on your hip, versus a shotgun in the closet or safe. That's when you have time to retrieve it.

I've mentioned having to run a shoot house at the NTI with a pancho over you to mimic being naked with a coach gun, box of mixed shells (bird and slug) and lots of bad guy dummies. I ended up butt stroking one when there were three dummies in play - surprise.

Of course, with an 8 shot gun, ammo on the butt - you might not run out unless you have a zombie attack (want 30 rounds for that). But it's not just a pick up gun without real practice, IMHO.

Go for it and train, it's useful and lots of fun. I have mine, next to my 223 and PCC for all possible zombie variants. Shotgun has two slugs first for the fantasy bear making the 6 mile hike here (reality - call the cops).

[Default.mp3]

@Default.mp3 (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=1132) My thinking on the shotgun is that shotguns have handling forgiveness built in, and that in the stress of a home defense situation I may be likely to forget most if not all of my training discipline. With a shotgun, if I get into the generally right area, I'm more likely to stop or at least distract an opponent than I would with a complete miss using a pistol or AR. Perhaps an implicit assumption here is that home defense will most likely involve unexpected close-quarters encounters. I do think an AR is the better option for controlled, longer distance scenarios, just not looking to optimize for those first.

Regarding 1014 vs 1301, my ever-so-valuable internet research seems to indicate a draw on the factors I consider most important: reliability with assorted ordinance, and ability to use at longer range when appropriate. In a world where ultimate capability seems to be equal I devolve to considering aesthetics, and on this front the Benelli is a definitive winner for my taste. Moderators, feel justified in ejecting from this forum for allowing aesthetics to be a consideration.I am of the opinion that from a practical perspective, for the new shooter only interested in duty/self-defense use, the AR is a much better platform than the shotgun, as it has an easier set of mechanics, much more adjustability (stocks, handguards, etc.), and would be cheaper and physically easier to shoot in general (the last of which can be a serious consideration if you have family members who may also need to pick up a weapon), so training up on it with live fire would be more viable. I also believe that you are being wildly optimistic about just how much less aiming you will need with a shotgun compared to a rifle in CQB distances.

As for the M4/1014 versus the 1301, it is my understanding that the 1301 is reliable with a wider variety of loads (with the M4 tending to short stroke more easily on lighter loads), is lighter, is cheaper, and has a much larger aftermarket. Again, the M4 is by all accounts a fine shotgun, but the 1301 seems to edge it out in most respects.

[frozentundra]

Default.mp3 My thinking on the shotgun is that shotguns have handling forgiveness built in, and that in the stress of a home defense situation I may be likely to forget most if not all of my training discipline. With a shotgun, if I get into the generally right area, I'm more likely to stop or at least distract an opponent than I would with a complete miss using a pistol or AR. Perhaps an implicit assumption here is that home defense will most likely involve unexpected close-quarters encounters. I do think an AR is the better option for controlled, longer distance scenarios, just not looking to optimize for those first.

Regarding 1014 vs 1301, my ever-so-valuable internet research seems to indicate a draw on the factors I consider most important: reliability with assorted ordinance, and ability to use at longer range when appropriate. In a world where ultimate capability seems to be equal I devolve to considering aesthetics, and on this front the Benelli is a definitive winner for my taste. Moderators, feel justified in ejecting from this forum for allowing aesthetics to be a consideration.

Long guns are generally easier to aim and hit with on a shooting range, but they are also harder to move around with and stop someone from taking away from you in close quarters. It's not a free lunch.

A pistol has the advantage of allowing you to use a hand held flashlight, hold a cellular phone, manipulate other objects or people while holding the gun in one hand, or having it holstered, perhaps concealed, and ready. ShivWorks videos should give you an idea about why "weapon retention" is a big deal. This is no different inside your house.

A shotgun or rifle will be easier to make hits with as range increases, and they are more powerful. However, they both take some specialized knowledge to make them work reliably as a life saving tool, especially in close quarters. Neither will be forgiving of poor aim or bad decision making. I will say that I consider a quality AR pattern rifle, properly maintained and correctly loaded, to be a nearly unrivaled combination of reliability and easy to shoot/operate. Shotguns are absolutely devastating tools, but they do recoil more than I enjoy, and they may demand more from the user in terms of reliable operation in some regards.

Between a pistol, shotgun, or rifle, none of them are a bad choice for home defense. But this is only true if you get quality training, practice the skills you learn, and are able to employ good tactics and sound decision making should the worst come to pass. Otherwise it's just a crapshoot whatever hardware you purchase.

Here's hoping none of us will ever see such a day!

[Chuck Whitlock]

2. I'm also looking at a Benelli 1014 for primary home defense, with the Glock as a concealed carry option outside the home. But I haven't yet found a long gun forum that seems as credible and level headed as this one. Any recommendations for other forums that might provide similar-- or at least not terrible-- guidance on shotgun and rifle skills?

PF is going to be your best forum for long guns, as well as handguns.

As far as home defense, it isn't exactly an "either/or" position. As Massad Ayoob (who posts her as Mas) has written in the past, the long gun is akin to artillery, used from a fixed position into a known point, as in your family has secured themselves in the master bedroom, hunkered down behind the bed, with the shotgun pointed towards the door. Any forced entry into that door gets met with devastation. The pistol is more akin to infantry, with the ability to maneuver easier. Consider that it is easier and more discreet to answer the door with a concealed pistol on your person than with a shotgun in hand.

The above is just one example, though. I would defer to the shotgun SME's here on specifics of shotgun equipment and tactics.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Shotgun story - friend competes in a military, law enforcement shotgun 'tactical' experience. Has to shoot under a car. Doesn't get a good chest position in the under the car position. Bang, dislocates his clavicle. Off to the ER. And he was an experienced user. Under speed pressure and ouch.

You can miss with a shotgun. Just watch a match with those plates and folks going fast.