FLETC's HOTP AAR

[Kyle Reese]

As most of us know, pistol mounted optics are not the future of law-enforcement handguns, in many cases, they are the here and now. Some agencies have yet to embrace this fact, but many larger institutions are coming around and developing organic training programs, or utilizing existing subject matter experts to ease the transition for agency wide implementation.

About me- I'm a full time law enforcement firearms instructor. I've served in that role since August of 2018, both as a sworn Field Training Officer, and as a non-sworn GS employee. I've been shooting pistol-mounted optics since the late summer of 2019, and to be completely candid with the reader, I was a late adopter because I was skeptical about the efficacy, durability and reliability of pistol mounted optics in general. Since that time, I've educated myself on the way of the dot, and trained with industry professionals such as Scott Jedlinski of Modern Samurai Project, and my peers at Green Ops, and I've seen quantifiable gains in my pistol shooting in that time. I've taken ownership of the pistol-mounted optics program within my agency, and was looking forward to FLETC offering their standalone optics program.

Last week, I had the opportunity to attend FLETC's Handgun Optic Training Program at their training facility in Cheltenham, MD. I've waited to attend this course for over a year, and was looking forward to it. This review is not broken down day by day, and not every single thing in the class is covered, but rather a general overview is offered.

The course was for my agency, and 12 students were in attendance. Equipment wise, I was shooting my agency issued GLOCK 47, with ACRO P-2 and Streamlight TLR-7A, carried in the excellent SafariVault holster.

The lead instructor, John Hill, was perfectly suited to teach this course. He's a Grandmaster in various disciplines in USPSA, and John is a shooter, a thinker, and he challenges his students from the first few seconds on the range. This was not a basic class, and very high standards in terms of self-diagnosis, weapons handling and skill at arms were expected.

John's approach to the dot was nuanced- we didn't turn on the dot and start blazing away. Many of these types of classes literally say "Focus on the target and not the dot. Ok, now go zero." This results in...........shooter focusing on the dot. We, as instructors, are our own worst enemy.

We spent several hours with the dot off, forcing the student to develop a natural index behind the pistol, as well as 100% speed on all draws from the very beginning. This also served to give the student confidence to make hits on target from 1.5 - 10 yards with a downed optic in a VERY compressed time frame.

Once the class was able to confidently get their hits with the dot off, we turned them on, and John explained that the dot gives you, the end user, a tremendous amount of information, should you choose to listen to it. We were also cautioned not to be overwhelmed by the information the dot was showing us.

With the dot on, a cursory zero drill was conducted at 10 yards, but it was emphasized that we would not be spending an inordinate amount of time putting clicks on the gun, because we're not shooting at Camp Perry. Without exception, everyone was mechanically zeroed, or had to make extremely minute adjustments to the ACRO. As many instructors know, you can chase a zero all day, but no amount of clicks on the gun will make up for moving the pistol while pressing the trigger.

After zero confirmation, shooting on the move, shooting strong and support hand, and multiple threat/ sequence shooting were all conducted, with the same high standards of speed and accuracy. Shooting a bullseye at 25? That's nice. Here's your 2 second par time.

The course, like many others, culminates in a qualification course of fire. The HOTP qualification is hands down my absolute favorite. To pass, you must be FAST and accurate. All of the tropes that some range instructors like to dole out like steaming bowls of mediocrity (take your time), (slow is smooth, and smooth is fast) ain't gonna cut it in this course. Be fast. Be accurate. Jam mags, and get back on the line.

If you are a partner agency with FLETC, and are even thinking about putting dots on pistols, have John Hill teach your range staff in the ways of the dot. I enjoyed this class so much I am signing back up to take it again.

Once again- thank you to John Hill for putting on this amazing course, and to FLETC for offering it.

[CCT125US]

Are you able to share the HOTP qual COF? I searched, and this thread was the second result that showed up.

[Kyle Reese]

Apologies for dragging ass in posting the qual. Here it is;

Handgun Optic Training Program

Course of Fire

All stages will start in the holster and be fired two (2) handed unless otherwise specified and all
stages will require off-line movement with the draw unless otherwise specified. 60 round
course of fire. 300 possible points

Initial Mag prep is 12, 12, 11 (pocket, front, back)

HOTP Course Target (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?57389-Questions-about-this-Homeland-Security-Target)

Stage 1 –
3y Off-line 3 rounds chest 2 head 3 sec

Stage 2 –
5y One Step to 11 o’clock pos, 2 rounds center mass 2 sec
5y One Step to 4 o’clock pos, 2 rounds center mass 2 sec
5y Off-line R, 3 rounds center mass, reload, 3 rounds center mass 5 sec
5y Draw and fire 3 rounds strong hand only, 3 sec
5y Ready gun, 3 rounds support hand only 3 sec
Pick up empty magazine

Stage 3 –
7y Off-line R 3 rounds to the head 3.5 sec
Emergency Reload w/11 round magazine
7y One step Rear 2 rounds to the chest, 1 round to the head 3.5 sec
7y One step forward 6 rounds center mass 3 sec

 Prep empty mags 16 & 4. 16 round magazine should be in front 4 round magazine in
the back.

 Score the front half of the course. 33 rounds / Possible 165 points available. Once
scored put up new targets to shoot the back half.

Handgun Optic Training Program

Course of Fire

Stage 4 –
10y Off-line L 2 rounds to the head 3.5 sec
Emergency Reload to the 16rnd mag
10y Off-line R 2 rounds center mass, 2 Rounds head 5.5 sec
Prep empty mag with 5 rounds. 4 round mag in the front and 5 round mag in the back pouch.

Stage 5 –
12y – 7y Shooting while moving 5 rounds 4.5 sec
7y – 12 y Shooting while moving 5 rounds 4 sec

Stage 6 –
15y Right Side Barricade, 2 standing, reload, 2 kneeling 8 sec
15y Left Side Barricade, 2 standing, reload, 2 kneeling 8 sec

Stage 7 –
25y 1 round center mass 2 sec
25y 1 round center mass 2 sec
25y 1 round center mass 2 sec



 Score the back half of the course. 27 total rounds / Possible 135 points available.
Target will be the HOTP Target, scoring will be;

 Black bulls eye (X, 10,9,8 rings) and head shots (there are 10 total) above neck line = 5
points. Any additional head shots will be scored as 1 point. Any Missed head shots will
be scored as a miss, zero points.

 Head shots will be marked after each stage has been completed. i.e. once the line is
done shooting at the 7-yard line instructors will mark the head shots while the students
move yard lines.

 7ring = 3 points, Remainder of target = 1 point

300 possible points. Passing is 80% = 240 points

 Scoring round must touch the line to count and all standard FLETC alibies will apply.

[DMF13]

Thanks for for your review.

I'm tentatively scheduled to attend our agency's transition course late this summer. I am wishing I could also attend this course, and compare contrast it with what we are doing.

I've attended the Modern Samurai Project class, and a class put on by a local PD who has had PMOs for over four years. I'd like to do more than just depend on what we come up with" in house," as I will be tasked with helping others in the wider transition in the field.

[Skinner Precision, LLC]

Kyle Reese
Any suggestions on where one might find the HOTP target ?

The target looks worth keeping around.
Thank you in advance.

[Kyle Reese]

Kyle Reese
Any suggestions on where one might find the HOTP target ?

The target looks worth keeping around.
Thank you in advance.

To the best of my knowledge, they are produced by DHS in house. I’ll reach out to some FI friends at FLETC and see if and when they’re going to be commercially available via third party vendors.

[HCM]

To the best of my knowledge, they are produced by DHS in house. I’ll reach out to some FI friends at FLETC and see if and when they’re going to be commercially available via third party vendors.

Which means it’s probably actually produced by either lighthouse for the blind (of a similar non profit) or UNICOR (federal prison industries).

[HCM]

Thanks for for your review.

I'm tentatively scheduled to attend our agency's transition course late this summer. I am wishing I could also attend this course, and compare contrast it with what we are doing.

I've attended the Modern Samurai Project class, and a class put on by a local PD who has had PMOs for over four years. I'd like to do more than just depend on what we come up with" in house," as I will be tasked with helping others in the wider transition in the field.

When our agency was developing our transition program a few years ago, in addition to MSP our folks went to train with Sage Dynamics and Dan Smith of Centrifuge training. Not sure where you are in the country but I’ve also heard good feedback about the more recent iterations of the red dot training program at the SIG Academy.

There is some criticism from some people in the performance, shooting world of red Dot, specific classes, particularly red dot classes for law enforcement.

In my experience, they are technically right, but practically wrong. It’s true that maybe 20% of most red dot classes is red dot specific, including my own agency transition class.

However, most LE agencies are not full of performance shooters, who dry fire and train on their own time. They’re made up of people who shoot because they have to or get paid tO. They also operate on the law of primacy i.e. what’s learned first is learned best. So ….. people doing things from shooting the old 1990s “tactical turtle” isosceles cop stances to pinning the trigger etc. I personally found that people who already had a good index and presentation had a pretty smooth transition from Irons to optic. Whereas people who had difficulty finding the dot did not have efficient presentations, but were able to mask their deficiency more with irons.

So, in institutional terms, a red dot transition class is a mechanism to conduct performance (or remedial) training for that other 80% of the class while making it more palatable under the guise of new equipment training.

[jlw]

Thanks for for your review.

I'm tentatively scheduled to attend our agency's transition course late this summer. I am wishing I could also attend this course, and compare contrast it with what we are doing.

I've attended the Modern Samurai Project class, and a class put on by a local PD who has had PMOs for over four years. I'd like to do more than just depend on what we come up with" in house," as I will be tasked with helping others in the wider transition in the field.


Cougar Mountain Solutions' PMO Instructor Course is your answer. Erick Gelhaus

I've attended numerous PMO end user and instructor courses, and his, by far, was the best. I also got a lot out of Sig Academy's PMO Instructor course (ignore the "reduces mistake of fact" nonsense stuff".

[BobM]

Cougar Mountain Solutions' PMO Instructor Course is your answer. Erick Gelhaus

I've attended numerous PMO end user and instructor courses, and his, by far, was the best. I also got a lot out of Sig Academy's PMO Instructor course (ignore the "reduces mistake of fact" nonsense stuff".

Just registered, looking forward to it

[Erick Gelhaus]

Cougar Mountain Solutions' PMO Instructor Course is your answer. Erick Gelhaus
Who's that guy?


I've attended numerous PMO end user and instructor courses, and his, by far, was the best. I also got a lot out of Sig Academy's PMO Instructor course (ignore the "reduces mistake of fact" nonsense stuff".

Thanks, jlw ... currently my optics instructor class is on the calendar three times this year - Ohio in June, PA in Aug, and OK in December.

I took Sig's instructor class, and it is a good class on shooting dots.

[DMF13]

Cougar Mountain Solutions' PMO Instructor Course is your answer. Erick Gelhaus

I've attended numerous PMO end user and instructor courses, and his, by far, was the best. I also got a lot out of Sig Academy's PMO Instructor course (ignore the "reduces mistake of fact" nonsense stuff".Thanks, I'd like to do that too, and hopefully I'll be able to get to one. I'm trying to get to multiple high quality classes (goal 2 per year, beyond what, if any, work sends me to), and not.just PMO specific, as I've picked up good info from multiple people. Since there can be multiple right answers, I like to see the various approaches from high quality instructors.

[jnc36rcpd]

Anyone attended red dot training with Team One Network or NLEFIA? I do realize there's no guarantee we'd have the same instructor. Thanks and be safe.

[DMF13]

I personally found that people who already had a good index and presentation had a pretty smooth transition from Irons to optic. Whereas people who had difficulty finding the dot did not have efficient presentations, but were able to mask their deficiency more with irons. Well, many of our folks, including me, were taught the whole; head down, shoulders rolled forward, create tension in the chest,shoulders, and back, along with bring the gun up front sight high, and "roling" out so the front sight drops down on the press out. I abandoned all that a few years ago, but bad habits persist, and were very apparent when starting on the red dot. Also, we atill have people, including FIs, who believe that is atill the best way. So, we will have some people who will be very frustrated when they take the transition training, or will use inefficient methods to compensate for their poor mechanics.

Luckily, it has been decided that anyone who has irons can try the dot (there is still debate on how long, with suggested times of 3, 6, and 12 months), and if they don't want it, after the trial period, they can stick with irons.
So, in institutional terms, a red dot transition class is a mechanism to conduct performance (or remedial) training for that other 80% of the class while making it more palatable under the guise of new equipment training.
That is how our SIG 229/226 to Glock transition went. It was 4 days, and was "sold" as all that time and ammo was needed due to the "huge" differences between the two.systems.

Now we.are being told the PMO transition will be half that. I wish they would give us at least an additional day, both because for many the transition to the optic really is a "huge" change, and also to get some of that "performance/remedial" training.

[jlw]

My questions will be in bold.




Initial Mag prep is 12, 12, 11 (pocket, front, back)

Is the initial load with the 12-round mag from the pocket?

HOTP Course Target (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?57389-Questions-about-this-Homeland-Security-Target)


Stage 2 –
5y One Step to 11 o’clock pos, 2 rounds center mass 2 sec

Is this a diagonal forward left step?

5y One Step to 4 o’clock pos, 2 rounds center mass 2 sec

Diagonal rear and right?



Stage 5 –
12y – 7y Shooting while moving 5 rounds 4.5 sec
7y – 12 y Shooting while moving 5 rounds 4 sec


Forward from 12 and backward from seven?


 Head shots will be marked after each stage has been completed. i.e. once the line is
done shooting at the 7-yard line instructors will mark the head shots while the students
move yard lines.

How much time was spent swapping targets and marking headshots?




This seems like a complicated course to administer. Did participants have trouble grasping it?

Also, it seems the feds have a propensity for 60-round courses which just seems like an odd choice as it means partial boxes of ammo, but then again, my state has had a 30-round course since 2004.

[jlw]

Anyone attended red dot training with Team One Network or NLEFIA? I do realize there's no guarantee we'd have the same instructor. Thanks and be safe.

I've had no luck with NLEFIA. I tried to host a course and couldn't get enough for it to make, and I signed up for course elsewhere that didn't make. These may be oddball instances as it seems most of their classes fill, but they don't get a lot of mention in my web travels.

I've done one class with Team One, but it wasn't a dot class, and it was a long time ago.

[DMF13]

Also, it seems the feds have a propensity for 60-round courses . . .Not all the feds, just FLETC. My agency has had a 50 round course since long before I got hired.

Our lead FITP FLETC Cheltenham claimed the 60 rounds was based off the original revolver centric courses designed in the 1970s, and FLETC will always keep the round counts, and distances the same because they "have four decades of data to bring to court" if.someone is being prosecuted or sued regarding an office involved shooting.

That seems a bit ridiculous as I am unaware of any case where that kind of data was relevant in either a civil or criminal trial. I know quality and frequency of training might be a factor, but needing the round count and distances to stay constant does not seem relevant. However that instructor was adamant that data was very important, for that reason.

[jlw]

Not all the feds, just FLETC. My agency has had a 50 round course since long before I got hired.

Our lead FITP FLETC Cheltenham claimed the 60 rounds was based off the original revolver centric courses designed in the 1970s, and FLETC will always keep the round counts, and distances the same because they "have four decades of data to bring to court" if.someone is being prosecuted or sued regarding an office involved shooting.

That seems a bit ridiculous as I am unaware of any case where that kind of data was relevant in either a civil or criminal trial. I know quality and frequency of training might be a factor, but needing the round count and distances to stay constant does not seem relevant. However that instructor was adamant that data was very important, for that reason.

The FBI was previously shooting a 60-round course. I'll dig out my FITP binder as I seem to recall the agency quals in it were 60 rounders, but I may be misremembering.

[WobblyPossum]

The FBI was previously shooting a 60-round course. I'll dig out my FITP binder as I seem to recall the agency quals in it were 60 rounders, but I may be misremembering.

It’s a mixed bag. The previous FBI course was 60 rounds. In 2019 they switched to a 50 round course. ICE shoots a 50 round course. I believe FAMS shoots the regular 60 round FLETC qual course. No idea about DEA, ATF, USSS, CBP, etc.

[penates]

USBP shoots a fifty round qual. I believe OFO does as well.

[HCM]

The FBI was previously shooting a 60-round course. I'll dig out my FITP binder as I seem to recall the agency quals in it were 60 rounders, but I may be misremembering.

They were at one time.

Up through 2010? 2012? The Bureau shot a 50 round course of fire which had the majority of shots (28/50) at 15 and 25 yards.

They then switched to the 60 round course of fire which moved the majority of shots to 7 yards and closer to better reflect what Agents were encountering in actual shootings.

In 2019, the 60 round course of fire was modified to the current 50 round course of fire.

[Chuck Whitlock]

This seems like a complicated course to administer. Did participants have trouble grasping it?

Also, it seems the feds have a propensity for 60-round courses which just seems like an odd choice as it means partial boxes of ammo, but then again, my state has had a 30-round course since 2004.

The PPC course was also 60 rounds, and scored the same way...the up close and head shots scored first, then the rest of the course completed. I think that was so head hits from afar didn't get mistaken for the close ones. I have a DVD (somewhere) from my FITP class with several different agency courses of fire at the time.

[konkapot]

I ran the HOTP that Kyle did the writeup about, and am The Guy for HOTP here in Cheltenham.

JLW-Your questions about the course of fire are all answered with a "yes."

Target changeover/headshot scoring took about 3 minutes; at Cheltenham we have really small class sizes, and we prepped new targets ahead of time. Make it a big class, be "short" on instructors, and don't prep and things will definately take longer.

CoF was not super complicated (see preparation comment above.) Remember also that as full time instructors we are, sometimes, pretty competent at this stuff.

It's a 4 day class, and in both classes this year we qualed on TD3, which starts to indicate that maybe 4 days is not truly necessary.

Target is basically an IDPA target-ish. The -0 ring counts as 5 points. There's a thin scoring ring around that that counts as 3 points, the rest of the body is 1 point. Called headshots count as 5.

Random:
The first class was agency specific for a large uniformed agency in the DC area. All slots were reserved for them, but they ultimately ended up only using 3 of the 12. The other 9 slots were occupied by a random group of guys. Three of the class were shooters, three were not, and three showed up thinking it was going to be gentlemans course; show up, talk about gear, shoot the PPC and call it a day.

Second class (the one Kyle took) was also agency specific. I'd say that there were 3-4 shooters and the rest were solid dudes. Time permitting, I wanted to have everyone shoot the CoF with irons just to see.

I am not convinced that we've cured cancer or divided by zero with this dot thing.

Someone mentioned about the FLETC PPC and "stats to back it up." Anytime any FLETC instructor claims to have "stats" or "studies" call them out to their face right there on the spot. Demand to see the "study" or the "stats." Hell, offer to paypal them $1000 to see the "study" or "stats."

[jlw]

It’s a mixed bag. The previous FBI course was 60 rounds. In 2019 they switched to a 50 round course. ICE shoots a 50 round course. I believe FAMS shoots the regular 60 round FLETC qual course. No idea about DEA, ATF, USSS, CBP, etc.


They were at one time.

Up through 2010? 2012? The Bureau shot a 50 round course of fire which had the majority of shots (28/50) at 15 and 25 yards.

They then switched to the 60 round course of fire which moved the majority of shots to 7 yards and closer to better reflect what Agents were encountering in actual shootings.

In 2019, the 60 round course of fire was modified to the current 50 round course of fire.


Guys,

Note the "previously" in my post.

[jlw]

The PPC course was also 60 rounds, and scored the same way...the up close and head shots scored first, then the rest of the course completed. I think that was so head hits from afar didn't get mistaken for the close ones. I have a DVD (somewhere) from my FITP class with several different agency courses of fire at the time.

I went through FITP just prior to the world ending in 2020. I have a binder full of courses, but I don't recall a DVD. I've got a file full of courses I've collected. I'll look through them later.

I thought the stopping to swap targets, etc, added a lot of time to shooting the course.

[jlw]

I ran the HOTP that Kyle did the writeup about, and am The Guy for HOTP here in Cheltenham.

JLW-Your questions about the course of fire are all answered with a "yes."

Target changeover/headshot scoring took about 3 minutes; at Cheltenham we have really small class sizes, and we prepped new targets ahead of time. Make it a big class, be "short" on instructors, and don't prep and things will definately take longer.

CoF was not super complicated (see preparation comment above.) Remember also that as full time instructors we are, sometimes, pretty competent at this stuff.

It's a 4 day class, and in both classes this year we qualed on TD3, which starts to indicate that maybe 4 days is not truly necessary.

Target is basically an IDPA target-ish. The -0 ring counts as 5 points. There's a thin scoring ring around that that counts as 3 points, the rest of the body is 1 point. Called headshots count as 5.

Random:
The first class was agency specific for a large uniformed agency in the DC area. All slots were reserved for them, but they ultimately ended up only using 3 of the 12. The other 9 slots were occupied by a random group of guys. Three of the class were shooters, three were not, and three showed up thinking it was going to be gentlemans course; show up, talk about gear, shoot the PPC and call it a day.

Second class (the one Kyle took) was also agency specific. I'd say that there were 3-4 shooters and the rest were solid dudes. Time permitting, I wanted to have everyone shoot the CoF with irons just to see.

I am not convinced that we've cured cancer or divided by zero with this dot thing.

Someone mentioned about the FLETC PPC and "stats to back it up." Anytime any FLETC instructor claims to have "stats" or "studies" call them out to their face right there on the spot. Demand to see the "study" or the "stats." Hell, offer to paypal them $1000 to see the "study" or "stats."

Careful, gundom will cancel you. LOL

Thanks for the quality info.

[HCM]

I ran the HOTP that Kyle did the writeup about, and am The Guy for HOTP here in Cheltenham.

JLW-Your questions about the course of fire are all answered with a "yes."

Target changeover/headshot scoring took about 3 minutes; at Cheltenham we have really small class sizes, and we prepped new targets ahead of time. Make it a big class, be "short" on instructors, and don't prep and things will definately take longer.

CoF was not super complicated (see preparation comment above.) Remember also that as full time instructors we are, sometimes, pretty competent at this stuff.

It's a 4 day class, and in both classes this year we qualed on TD3, which starts to indicate that maybe 4 days is not truly necessary.

Target is basically an IDPA target-ish. The -0 ring counts as 5 points. There's a thin scoring ring around that that counts as 3 points, the rest of the body is 1 point. Called headshots count as 5.

Random:
The first class was agency specific for a large uniformed agency in the DC area. All slots were reserved for them, but they ultimately ended up only using 3 of the 12. The other 9 slots were occupied by a random group of guys. Three of the class were shooters, three were not, and three showed up thinking it was going to be gentlemans course; show up, talk about gear, shoot the PPC and call it a day.

Second class (the one Kyle took) was also agency specific. I'd say that there were 3-4 shooters and the rest were solid dudes. Time permitting, I wanted to have everyone shoot the CoF with irons just to see.

I am not convinced that we've cured cancer or divided by zero with this dot thing.

Someone mentioned about the FLETC PPC and "stats to back it up." Anytime any FLETC instructor claims to have "stats" or "studies" call them out to their face right there on the spot. Demand to see the "study" or the "stats." Hell, offer to paypal them $1000 to see the "study" or "stats."

How much moving and shooting is in the class ? By which I mean practical movement not just single side steps.

If you have ann extra day, how about adding a day of force on force with optics equipped pistols?

IME two applications where the dot really outperforms irons are movement and force on force. This was also noted in many of the critiques from our agency’s pistol optics instructor program.

Shooting dots vs irons in static flat range exercises doesn’t tell the whole story.

[WobblyPossum]

Guys,

Note the "previously" in my post.

While I quoted the post about the previous FBI course, I was commenting on your earlier post about feds tending to run 60 round courses of fire. I wasn’t trying to tell you that you were wrong about the FBI course. I just didn’t feel like quoting both posts.

[DMF13]

Someone mentioned about the FLETC PPC and "stats to back it up." Anytime any FLETC instructor claims to have "stats" or "studies" call them out to their face right there on the spot. Demand to see the "study" or the "stats." Hell, offer to paypal them $1000 to see the "study" or "stats."
That was me, and I think the claim about needing the data was ridiculous. However, to.fair to that instructor he never claimed any analysis of the data, just that forty+ years of data for qualifications, requiring the same number of shots, at the same distances, existed, and could be used in court. He then claimed that is why the 60/round.course will stay that way.

I think that's nonsense, but that was the claim.

[konkapot]

I've heard that claim before and it is indeed nonsense.

My concern is that a lot of things get said that are factually incorrect, then they get repeated, and then become "facts."

Most of what FLETC does comes from....................the partner organizations. The very agencies that simp and whine about "the FLETC way" are the ones that complain the most.

Re: adding FoF training on day 4. We don't just add things. The HOTPs in Charleston were technically pilot programs. Much of the complaints from the agencies was that the CoF was too hard. So, Charleston did two pilots, we did two "real" classes. Sample size of 4 is too small to revise curiculum.

Re: Shooting and moving. We did a lot of it, but as usual the limiting factor is the skillset of the students. The few solid shooters performed well during our various drills, of course. The guys that showed up for the gentlemans course....not so much. The guy who didn't bring a gun or a holster really struggled.

[TGS]

The guy who didn't bring a gun or a holster ...

https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExZjN4MGFoNXBwODJxOTV2MWs4aGNrNWJ veGplZTh1d2E2NWIzejh4ayZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfY nlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/zrmTqopWm4W5cPg8Ah/giphy.gif

Tell me this was a contract instructor who doesn't have carry authority and had made a mistake on reserving a gun for use...and not an active LEO who was expected to bring his piece.

Please.

[konkapot]

He was a fully sworn 1811 from the OIG community.

Then, at about day 2, he "found" the holster he brought. It was an odd kydex drop/offset holster.

[jlw]

I've heard that claim before and it is indeed nonsense.



Most of what FLETC does comes from....................the partner organizations.

As a retired fed told me, "FLETC has a lot of daddies.".

[konkapot]

FLETC has a lot of problems. An amazing amount, actually.

But it absolutely takes two to tango.

Extraordinarily frustrating sometimes.

[HCM]

I've heard that claim before and it is indeed nonsense.

My concern is that a lot of things get said that are factually incorrect, then they get repeated, and then become "facts."

Most of what FLETC does comes from....................the partner organizations. The very agencies that simp and whine about "the FLETC way" are the ones that complain the most.

Re: adding FoF training on day 4. We don't just add things. The HOTPs in Charleston were technically pilot programs. Much of the complaints from the agencies was that the CoF was too hard. So, Charleston did two pilots, we did two "real" classes. Sample size of 4 is too small to revise curiculum.

Re: Shooting and moving. We did a lot of it, but as usual the limiting factor is the skillset of the students. The few solid shooters performed well during our various drills, of course. The guys that showed up for the gentlemans course....not so much. The guy who didn't bring a gun or a holster really struggled.

Consider FOF when it’s time to revise. During our red dot instructor classes, many of the FIs who had never used red dots before cited the FOF as when the red dot “clicked” for them and they bought into the concept.

Regarding an active LEO showing up for the class without a gun or a holster, this is my complete lack of surprise…..

[konkapot]

The instructors don't have as much input in revisions as you'd think. It's largely partner organization/student driven.

The guy who showed up with no gun has more input than I do into what the future holds.

The fact that there's been almost no interest in the class means that there might not be many more.

[jnc36rcpd]

I've had no luck with NLEFIA. I tried to host a course and couldn't get enough for it to make, and I signed up for course elsewhere that didn't make. These may be oddball instances as it seems most of their classes fill, but they don't get a lot of mention in my web travels.

I've done one class with Team One, but it wasn't a dot class, and it was a long time ago.

Thanks. jlw. I have trained with Team One instructors in the past and know they are pretty solid, but hoped someone had attended their red dot training. NLEFIA does host a decent number of courses, but I agree one doesn't read much on the web about them.

[paherne]

Not all the feds, just FLETC. My agency has had a 50 round course since long before I got hired.

Our lead FITP FLETC Cheltenham claimed the 60 rounds was based off the original revolver centric courses designed in the 1970s, and FLETC will always keep the round counts, and distances the same because they "have four decades of data to bring to court" if.someone is being prosecuted or sued regarding an office involved shooting.

That seems a bit ridiculous as I am unaware of any case where that kind of data was relevant in either a civil or criminal trial. I know quality and frequency of training might be a factor, but needing the round count and distances to stay constant does not seem relevant. However that instructor was adamant that data was very important, for that reason.

People who are instructors, or even attorneys like DAs and City Attorneys, who do not defend cops in shootings in Fed court usually have no fricking clue what they are talking about when it comes to liability of police use of force. Like Kardashian taking OJ down to the station to get interviewed and clear up Nicole's murder clueless.