Why no 1301 20 gauge

[GJM]

The argument against 20 gauge in a defensive shotgun has been the 1301 is lighter, recoils less, is better featured than 20 gauge shotguns, and launches Flite Control buck.

Seeing that Federal is releasing 20 gauge Flite Control, it makes me wonder why no 1301 in 20 gauge. It could be handier, recoil less than the 12, while still delivering effective buck loads. Plus, the Brenneke 20 gauge slugs are available.

[Navin Johnson]

The argument against 20 gauge in a defensive shotgun has been the 1301 is lighter, recoils less, is better featured than 20 gauge shotguns, and launches Flite Control buck.

Seeing that Federal is releasing 20 gauge Flite Control, it makes me wonder why no 1301 in 20 gauge. It could be handier, recoil less than the 12, while still delivering effective buck loads. Plus, the Brenneke 20 gauge slugs are available.

Most likely market and ROI considerations. It would be fantastic for smaller, structured people as a defensive tool.

Also, for most manly men, it’s like a chrome plated sissy pistol is my guess…..

[Borderland]

I doubt the civilian market would embrace it. Sales to military and LEO would probably be underwhelming. Is there a difference between a tactical shotgun and a home defense shotgun? I would think the 20ga version would be a HD shotgun.

They should run it up the flag pole anyway to see if anyone salutes. Beretta has deep pockets.

[GJM]

If you look at trends, we have gone from .45 to .40 to 9mm in pistols, from .38 and .357 to .32 and .22 LR in small revolvers, and from .308 to 5.56 in carbines. Bullet placement and construction being prioritized over pure caliber.

A 20 gauge Brenneke has better sectional density than the 12 gauge Brenneke equivalent, and recoils like .308 out of an AR10. If Beretta made a 1301 in 20, I would be all over it.

[cosermann]

Further reducing recoil would seem to be the only advantage (unless I'm missing one), and that's only if the shotgun weight remains the same. If the weight is further reduced to a scaled down 20 ga platform the recoil reduction may be imperceptible.

And for that, one gives up ammunition selection (far more options for the 12) and payload capacity.

Example, took my daughter to a defensive shotgun class back in 2013. Took a 20 ga in addition to the 12 gauges in case she had any issues. She, eighteen year old girl, did just fine with the 12 gauge and the 20 gauge stayed in the truck all day.

Not sure there'd be a huge market. I know I wouldn't be interested. No plans to add any 20 ga to the battery/collection.

[Borderland]

If you look at trends, we have gone from .45 to .40 to 9mm in pistols, from .38 and .357 to .32 and .22 LR in small revolvers, and from .308 to 5.56 in carbines. Bullet placement and construction being prioritized over pure caliber.

A 20 gauge Brenneke has better sectional density than the 12 gauge Brenneke equivalent, and recoils like .308 out of an AR10. If Beretta made a 1301 in 20, I would be all over it.

I think the popularity of the 5.56 NATO was because of the adoption by the military. I know it was my choice when I built a precision rifle because of availability of components to load the cartridge. The military has moved on to the 6.8×51mm cartridge and in 10 years that ammo will as cheap as 5.56 to load or shoot. More or less the same with 9x19 being adopted by LE and military.

I often considered a 20 ga Benelli M2 for upland hunting though. I think 20 ga may be under rated by many. Most gas operated shotguns have light recoil. My 11-87 is a very soft shooter compared to my 870 and Citori. I just compared them recently.

[HCM]

The argument against 20 gauge in a defensive shotgun has been the 1301 is lighter, recoils less, is better featured than 20 gauge shotguns, and launches Flite Control buck.

Seeing that Federal is releasing 20 gauge Flite Control, it makes me wonder why no 1301 in 20 gauge. It could be handier, recoil less than the 12, while still delivering effective buck loads. Plus, the Brenneke 20 gauge slugs are available.

Takeoff your shooter hat, and put on your businessman hat.

It’s that whole gun companies exist to make money, not guns thing.

Niche market with a limited selection of relevant ammo compared to 12 gauge.

[GJM]

Takeoff your shooter hat, and put on your businessman hat.

It’s that whole gun companies exist to make money, not guns thing.

Niche market with a limited selection of relevant ammo compared to 12 gauge.

I hear you, but when your focus is solely on making money, you usually don't make much of it. When you focus on making great products, and anticipating trends, you can do really well.

The 1301 is lightweight compared to most twelve gauge shotguns, but significantly thicker and heavier than my 20 gauge Benelli M2, dedicated slug launcher. Since I hike with a shotgun in my hand, thinner and lighter is a good thing. I was just discussing this with Darryl B, and he and Mel love their twenty gauge Beretta shotguns, and love the concept of a 1301 in 20. Since Beretta already has an A400 in 20, I can't imagine development costs would be that high.

A better handling, reliable shotgun that delivers fight stopping buck and Brenneke slugs, and is more fun to shoot, might have more appeal than you think.

[camel]

I hear you, but when your focus is solely on making money, you usually don't make much of it. When you focus on making great products, and anticipating trends, you can do really well.

The 1301 is lightweight compared to most twelve gauge shotguns, but significantly thicker and heavier than my 20 gauge Benelli M2, dedicated slug launcher. Since I hike with a shotgun in my hand, thinner and lighter is a good thing. I was just discussing this with Darryl B, and he and Mel love their twenty gauge Beretta shotguns, and love the concept of a 1301 in 20. Since Beretta already has an A400 in 20, I can't imagine development costs would be that high.

A better handling, reliable shotgun that delivers fight stopping buck and Brenneke slugs, and is more fun to shoot, might have more appeal than you think.

Would be something I would buy

[Dov]

If you look at trends, we have gone from .45 to .40 to 9mm in pistols, from .38 and .357 to .32 and .22 LR in small revolvers, and from .308 to 5.56 in carbines. Bullet placement and construction being prioritized over pure caliber.

A 20 gauge Brenneke has better sectional density than the 12 gauge Brenneke equivalent, and recoils like .308 out of an AR10. If Beretta made a 1301 in 20, I would be all over it.

IIRC, and its been a long day so maybe I'm off, but I believe 20 gauge slugs about same power as 454 Casull in levergun. Used to be some factory sabot loads for 20 gauge rifles barrels used bullets for 454.

[Dov]

Health issues have made me lot more sensitive to recoil, but gf's 20 gauge 11-87 with 3" No 2 buckshot is more comfortable to shoot than my 12 gauge 11-87 with any standard 9 pellet OO buck or 16 pellet No 1 buck I've tried. Haven't got a vent rib barrel yet so don't trust low recoil buck in it, it cycles low recoil buckshot and they are real light in recoil but it cycles very sluggishly with factory slug barrel and low recoil buck so I don't trust it.

Honestly with her 20 gauge 11-87 we can't tell difference in recoil between 2.75" No 3 buck loads and 3" No 2 buck loads, we've loaded gun for each other with mix of the sells and can't tell them apart by feel YMMV and I'm sure a pump or double would feel the difference.

All the regular Foster Slugs feel the same to each other, I've got a box or two of the 1 oz Brenneke for her 20 gauge but haven't got around to trying those yet.

[Toonces]

I put in a Like for Navin Johnson's and Borderland's posts not because I like them, but because I think they are unfortunately right.

My wife is shooting my 1301 Comp Pro for occasional sporting clays because it recoils way less than her 20 Gauge 686 O/U (softer shooting and better fit with Aridus/Magpul stock). Using that level of recoil as a goal to set weight, a 20 Gauge 1301 would be delightfully trim compared to the 12 Gauge. The same as all of Beretta's other 20 Gauge guns. The 20 Gauge A400s/A300s feel noticeably lighter and look noticeably smaller than their 12 Gauge counterparts. A lot of manly men can't fathom that some people (mainly women/young people) find their favorite guns heavy.

Maybe a 20 Gauge 1301 is a bridge too far, but how about a 20 Gauge A300UP? I'd be a buyer of a 20 Gauge 1301.

[mmc45414]

A 20 gauge Brenneke has better sectional density than the 12 gauge Brenneke equivalent, and recoils like .308 out of an AR10. If Beretta made a 1301 in 20, I would be all over it.
You want a light weight, autoloading, reliable 45/70, and I approve this message :cool:
I am probably committed to 12g, but mainly because I reload. I shoot a great many 3/4oz loads for skeet, and just am setting up to do some 1-1/2oz loads for multi-gun, but I probably like my 20ga guns better.


If you look at trends, we have gone from .45 to .40 to 9mm in pistols, from .38 and .357 to .32 and .22 LR in small revolvers, and from .308 to 5.56 in carbines.
More and more I am gravitating to 357 over 44.

[Lost River]

I maybe have this old 1100 LT20 Mag....


https://i.imgur.com/LI0mAwrh.jpg?1

You can literally shoot the thing with one hand. It is silly how little recoil a 20 gauge auto has.


I got this when I was 16 years old for Christmas with a longer, full vent rib 3" mag barrel.

Later I ordered 2 & 3/4" barrel and had it chopped to 18.5" for goofing off shooting rabbits, and whatever else needed shot. :cool:

I used to teach gun/CCW classes in college and this was one of the guns I would recommend for women for in their homes. They loved shooting it compared to the 12 gauge 870s their husbands would buy them.

It is brutal on jackrabbits!

[Totem Polar]

I’m with GJM. One of the few guns that I truly, truly regret parting with is my old 1100 LT-20 with the mag extension that did HD duty for a while. The idea of Federal FC 20 and a gun like that gets my tail wagging.

[flyrodr]

I'd be all over a 1301 in 20 gauge.

[HCM]

I hear you, but when your focus is solely on making money, you usually don't make much of it. When you focus on making great products, and anticipating trends, you can do really well.

The 1301 is lightweight compared to most twelve gauge shotguns, but significantly thicker and heavier than my 20 gauge Benelli M2, dedicated slug launcher. Since I hike with a shotgun in my hand, thinner and lighter is a good thing. I was just discussing this with Darryl B, and he and Mel love their twenty gauge Beretta shotguns, and love the concept of a 1301 in 20. Since Beretta already has an A400 in 20, I can't imagine development costs would be that high.

A better handling, reliable shotgun that delivers fight stopping buck and Brenneke slugs, and is more fun to shoot, might have more appeal than you think.

I don’t see tactical 20 gauge shotguns being a trend.

The 20 doesn’t really do anything that a low recoil 12 gauge round can’t do.

And this is one of those things that sounds great to PF but doesn’t translate to a wider audience.

[MickAK]

I hear you, but when your focus is solely on making money, you usually don't make much of it. When you focus on making great products, and anticipating trends, you can do really well.

The 1301 is lightweight compared to most twelve gauge shotguns, but significantly thicker and heavier than my 20 gauge Benelli M2, dedicated slug launcher. Since I hike with a shotgun in my hand, thinner and lighter is a good thing. I was just discussing this with Darryl B, and he and Mel love their twenty gauge Beretta shotguns, and love the concept of a 1301 in 20. Since Beretta already has an A400 in 20, I can't imagine development costs would be that high.

A better handling, reliable shotgun that delivers fight stopping buck and Brenneke slugs, and is more fun to shoot, might have more appeal than you think.

This.

I think the perception of lighter recoil and easier handling for smaller framed people/women is a bigger draw than the actual reduction of recoil and increased ease.

A 'His and Hers' 12 & 20 GA package would probably sell well and I hope they pursue it.

[GJM]

This.

I think the perception of lighter recoil and easier handling for smaller framed people/women is a bigger draw than the actual reduction of recoil and increased ease.

A 'His and Hers' 12 & 20 GA package would probably sell well and I hope they pursue it.

I don't think it is just perception -- a 20 gauge can be made into a trimmer, lighter shotgun that is easier to carry, hold, especially with one hand, and do manipulations with. I went to a lot of trouble to put together this 20 gauge Benelli M2. I put it aside because it didn't have a red dot, but I should probably put a S1 on it and carry it.

My 1301 with LTT treatment is 8.5 pounds loaded with accessories. That gets old quickly carrying it in your hands.

114025

114026

[Elwin]

114026[/ATTACH]

Thread drift, I've seen this pic before and always meant to ask what in the world that rear sight is.

Non-drift, I think a quality 20ga defensive auto is a great idea if there really is a viable load for it (and it doesn't go away). I've broken a lot of clays and killed a lot of birds with a 20ga Beretta, and it is definitely an entirely different animal than a 12ga one. With comparable birdshot loads, recoil is similar, but the 12 is just so much more gun both in terms of weight and girth. With the right loads available, I could see that all transferring over to defensive use.

[BobM]

Years ago the local shop had a used 1187 20 gauge youth gun. I handled it a couple times but it was gone by the time I decided to buy it. I bought my daughter a 20 gauge youth 870 that lives at my house. She can maneuver it easier than a 12. I’ve carried it hunting and enjoyed the lighter weight. I’d be interested in a Beretta 20 defense shotgun as I’m not getting any younger.

[Navin Johnson]

I don’t see tactical 20 gauge shotguns being a trend.

The 20 doesn’t really do anything that a low recoil 12 gauge round can’t do.

And this is one of those things that sounds great to PF but doesn’t translate to a wider audience.

Boom ^^^

My 15yo daughter shoots my Comp a lot with out issue (1301's can cycle lower recoil stuff believe it or not)

12 gage is far more flexible

Tac shotguns are a pimple on the ass of shotgun sales volume

I wish S&W would make the 342 (instead of stupid fkng 357 scandiums) or a TDA/DAO M&P line but that is not what the market wants.

I believe it is advised to purchase firearms in common calibers to make finding ammo easier in a small town etc. in a pinch. 20 ga FC?

And yes I would buy a 1301/A300 20 gage

[GJM]

Years ago the local shop had a used 1187 20 gauge youth gun. I handled it a couple times but it was gone by the time I decided to buy it. I bought my daughter a 20 gauge youth 870 that lives at my house. She can maneuver it easier than a 12. I’ve carried it hunting and enjoyed the lighter weight. I’d be interested in a Beretta 20 defense shotgun as I’m not getting any younger.

When we started doing shotgun classes with Jeans, Awerbuck and Cain, the 870 was pretty much the standard. My wife, despite being strong and athletic, had trouble holding the 12 gauge 870 with one arm, while loading and doing various manipulations. We built her up a youth model 870 with a short LOP, and she enjoyed that a lot more.

[mmc45414]

I am about one 12ga A300UP away from having all the shotguns I am ever gonna need.

This damn place... :cool:

[Borderland]

Thread drift, I've seen this pic before and always meant to ask what in the world that rear sight is.

Non-drift, I think a quality 20ga defensive auto is a great idea if there really is a viable load for it (and it doesn't go away). I've broken a lot of clays and killed a lot of birds with a 20ga Beretta, and it is definitely an entirely different animal than a 12ga one. With comparable birdshot loads, recoil is similar, but the 12 is just so much more gun both in terms of weight and girth. With the right loads available, I could see that all transferring over to defensive use.

Yeah, don't market it as tactical. That brings up images of swat teams clearing buildings and military applications that nobody really wants to see. It's a home defense shotgun and a good idea for a new marketing campaign for Beretta.

Personally, if I were building a HD shotgun I'd just cut the barrel of a 20 ga 1100 to 18'' and take the stock down to 13" but that would be more expensive than a new Beretta 1301.

I'm going to bet somebody will build a 20 auto loader for the HD market soon. I'm surprised Mossberg hasn't built one yet.

[MountainRaven]

Why no 20-gauge 1301?

Well. How many good pistols are there? How many good AR-15s are there? How many good bolt actions are there?

How many good defensive shotguns are there? Five? Six? A fraction of what there is for handguns, ARs, bolt-guns.

Shotguns are the revolver of the long gun world.

Having said that... maybe there are so few defensive 20-gauges because there is little good defensive ammunition. Maybe there is so little good defensive ammunition because there are so few defensive 20-gauges. Maybe a Beretta A300 UP or 1301 in 20-gauge, especially with Federal Flite Control, can begin to tip the balance.

Maybe.

I, for one, would be happy to see more - and better - defensive options available in both guns and ammunition.

But I'd also like to see the same in 16-gauge (and if I could snap my fingers and wish the guns and ammo into existence for 20-gauge or 16-gauge... I'm sorry, 20-gauge, but you're not getting the nod from me), so...

[Bigghoss]

I don't know how good they are (certainly not as good as the 1301) Mossberg has the SA-20 tacrtical 20 gauge semi auto and Stoeger has the M3020.

https://www.mossberg.com/media/catalog/product/cache/e481e64536a684f69707b47f11cbf51f/7/5/75780_sa20railed_pgrip_zr9ocdmmmvros1ve.jpg

https://www.mossberg.com/mossberg-international-sa-20-railed-pistol-grip-75780.html



https://stoegerindustries.com/sites/default/files/styles/medium_height/public/content/images/2022-01/31872-1.png?itok=YHCCYuSP

https://stoegerindustries.com/shotguns/m3020-defense-shotguns


I had picked up a Remington 11-87 youth 20ga a few years ago. With this new 20ga load coming out I might dust it off.

[HCM]

I don't know how good they are (certainly not as good as the 1301) Mossberg has the SA-20 tacrtical 20 gauge semi auto and Stoeger has the M3020.

https://www.mossberg.com/media/catalog/product/cache/e481e64536a684f69707b47f11cbf51f/7/5/75780_sa20railed_pgrip_zr9ocdmmmvros1ve.jpg

https://www.mossberg.com/mossberg-international-sa-20-railed-pistol-grip-75780.html



https://stoegerindustries.com/sites/default/files/styles/medium_height/public/content/images/2022-01/31872-1.png?itok=YHCCYuSP

https://stoegerindustries.com/shotguns/m3020-defense-shotguns


I had picked up a Remington 11-87 youth 20ga a few years ago. With this new 20ga load coming out I might dust it off.

The S.A.-20 is re-branded Turkish shotgun.


If you made me choose between the three shotguns you mentioned I’d have to go Stoeger aka “the Benelli we have at home.”

[BWT]

I don’t see tactical 20 gauge shotguns being a trend.

The 20 doesn’t really do anything that a low recoil 12 gauge round can’t do.

And this is one of those things that sounds great to PF but doesn’t translate to a wider audience.

Beat me to it. That is exactly what I was going to say - low recoiling or lower power 12 GA ammo exists in abundance.

I’d probably go with 12 Gauge regardless for this reason for any audience. I also have a mother with somewhat arthritic hands and larger 12 gauge shells would be easier to load for example. She’d never carry a shotgun or be inclined to use one, but she didn’t like my Sig Legion until she shot it and it absorbed recoil.

Would a racing geared Sig with 21 rounds make sense to most folks at first glance for a 70+ woman with arthritis? Nope. But when you look at it - it’s heavy and low recoiling and it has a generous capacity for someone not familiar with guns (or interested - so she’s probably not going to remember how to reload it), and has an easy to actuate trigger (again arthritic hands), and she will never carry a handgun (I’ve tried for 20+ years). It makes a ton more sense than a J-Frame .357 which is what she has now for a bed side gun if 21+1 rounds doesn’t get it done in her house. It’s probably not going to happen.

[RevolverRob]

You guys are using facts to suggest why a 20-gauge 1301 wouldn't be viable. Things like, "it really doesn't do anything a 12ga doesn't do, recoil, lighter weight, etc.". Buyers don't buy based on facts they buy based on feelings. 20-gauge HD shotguns do sell and they sell regularly, not in the same number as 12s, but they sell, because buyers feel the lighter gun with the smaller gauge will recoil less.

If Beretta has an existing slimmer 20ga frame that makes a 1301T-20 - simply a chopped barrel away from being viable - then it is easy money. However, the 1301T is a unique beast in the lineup, more so the Mod2 guns now, which means it isn't that simple. In that case, I don't see those extra sales, particularly because they canabalize part of existing 1301 sales as viable.

___

That all said, if the FC 20ga buck is good in Mrs. RRs 870Y - then I may well go find a nice Light-20 A5, chop the barrel, screw a Nordic tube on the end and mount a mailbox (ACRO) to the top of the receiver. Because I am a god damned heathen like that.

[GJM]

If I was doing the project, I would do high viz rifle style sights with the option to mount a dot over the receiver. Also I would do the barrel length to optimize rounds in the tube, whether that be 18, 19 or 20 inches long. Have an easy way to mount a light and a simple carry sling.

Guys would buy them for their wife and then realize how enjoyable a 20 is to shoot.

[Spartan1980]

...... if the FC 20ga buck is good in Mrs. RRs 870Y - then I may well go find a nice Light-20 A5, chop the barrel, screw a Nordic tube on the end and mount a mailbox (ACRO) to the top of the receiver. Because I am a god damned heathen like that.

Oh now you've done it.

I have a 12ga Browning Auto 5 and also a Sweet 16. The handling difference is pretty stark between the two. The Sweet 16 is a joy to carry and the 12...Not so much, just doable.

I have zero doubt that a 1301 20ga set up with a short LOP and 18" barrel would sell. Women who wanted a gage all over the country would flock to them and so would a lot of men. If someone would produce one, it may well spur Beretta to start making them. Winchester...Are you listening? You make a SX4 in 20ga in a compact model now that weighs 6.4lbs. All you need to do is add a 18-20" barrel to the catalog.

[HCM]

Beat me to it. That is exactly what I was going to say - low recoiling or lower power 12 GA ammo exists in abundance.

I’d probably go with 12 Gauge regardless for this reason for any audience. I also have a mother with somewhat arthritic hands and larger 12 gauge shells would be easier to load for example. She’d never carry a shotgun or be inclined to use one, but she didn’t like my Sig Legion until she shot it and it absorbed recoil.

Would a racing geared Sig with 21 rounds make sense to most folks at first glance for a 70+ woman with arthritis? Nope. But when you look at it - it’s heavy and low recoiling and it has a generous capacity for someone not familiar with guns (or interested - so she’s probably not going to remember how to reload it), and has an easy to actuate trigger (again arthritic hands), and she will never carry a handgun (I’ve tried for 20+ years). It makes a ton more sense than a J-Frame .357 which is what she has now for a bed side gun if 21+1 rounds doesn’t get it done in her house. It’s probably not going to happen.

Despite the prevalence of the patrol rifle, nowadays, a significant amount of the tactical shotgun market is still Agency / institutional sales. Quality semi auto shotguns with optics have rekindled at least limited interest in shotguns for LE.

However, institutional shot gun use in 2024 will often include less lethal or other specialty rounds such as breaching loads. This type of ammunition is available almost exclusively in 12 gauge.

[BWT]

Despite the prevalence of the patrol rifle, nowadays, a significant amount of the tactical shotgun market is still Agency / institutional sales. Quality semi auto shotguns with optics have rekindled at least limited interest in shotguns for LE.

However, institutional shot gun use in 2024 will often include less lethal or other specialty rounds such as breaching loads. This type of ammunition is available almost exclusively in 12 gauge.

I see 20 gauge going the direction of .40 S&W.

One thing that I think is also a victim of the COVID supply chain squeezes, global conflicts, and political panic buys is calibers are consolidating across firearms.

[GJM]

FIFY

I see 12 gauge going the direction of .40 S&W.

One thing that I think is also a victim of the COVID supply chain squeezes, global conflicts, and political panic buys is calibers are consolidating across firearms.

:p

[GJM]

Threads are often more interesting with different points of view, so I am enjoying this one.

I have spoken to two industry experts in this area, and both were positive. The first said, "oh, a semi auto 45/70, I get it."

I don't see this replacing the 12 gauge for law enforcement, becoming a dedicated less lethal shotgun or for specialty loads. I do see it as very desirable for most women, many self defense owners, and those like me that want a semi-auto .45-70 for defense hiking and recreating around grizzly bears. And about 100 percent of people will enjoy shooting it.

[Ben_G]

If Beretta has an existing slimmer 20ga frame that makes a 1301T-20 - simply a chopped barrel away from being viable - then it is easy money.

Not quite. For it to be structurally viable, it would have to have the annular gas system in the tactical gas block location (vs the field one on the 20ga A400). Plus you'd need appropriate furniture to call it a tac gun; stuff that makes sense for a 20ga but is in line with our current standards in the Patrol and Mod.2. So its design and validation on a barrel and gas system, and furniture and associated tooling costs. So a biiiiit more costly than a bandsaw; if it was that easy I would have grabbed a hunting gun, a saw and some pack paint ages ago.

[Borderland]

https://i.ibb.co/1XmyYbK/Sabot-Slug-20498.jpg (https://ibb.co/2MkV05P)


See the animals lower right?

[camel]

If I was doing the project, I would do high viz rifle style sights with the option to mount a dot over the receiver. Also I would do the barrel length to optimize rounds in the tube, whether that be 18, 19 or 20 inches long. Have an easy way to mount a light and a simple carry sling.

Guys would buy them for their wife and then realize how enjoyable a 20 is to shoot.

If you’re in charge of this project is it primarily as a slug thrower first? Asking because that’s really what I would want, slugs first buck second.

[Borderland]

You guys are using facts to suggest why a 20-gauge 1301 wouldn't be viable. Things like, "it really doesn't do anything a 12ga doesn't do, recoil, lighter weight, etc.". Buyers don't buy based on facts they buy based on feelings. 20-gauge HD shotguns do sell and they sell regularly, not in the same number as 12s, but they sell, because buyers feel the lighter gun with the smaller gauge will recoil less.

If Beretta has an existing slimmer 20ga frame that makes a 1301T-20 - simply a chopped barrel away from being viable - then it is easy money. However, the 1301T is a unique beast in the lineup, more so the Mod2 guns now, which means it isn't that simple. In that case, I don't see those extra sales, particularly because they canabalize part of existing 1301 sales as viable.

___

That all said, if the FC 20ga buck is good in Mrs. RRs 870Y - then I may well go find a nice Light-20 A5, chop the barrel, screw a Nordic tube on the end and mount a mailbox (ACRO) to the top of the receiver. Because I am a god damned heathen like that.

I dare you. Pictures before and after.

[gato naranja]

My only beef with such a thing would be the tendency for 20s to get so trim and lightweight that they recoil excessively. Thls part of the world used to be well stocked with scaled-down, light 20 gauge shotguns that were okay with light upland loads but holy terrors to touch off in cold blood with a slug or heavy load in the pipe.

More than one wife has gotten her bell rung once too often after the family expert got her a new lightweight 20. I have a petite female relative who eventually ended up choosing a heavy pig of a 12 gauge for that reason.

[GJM]

My only beef with such a thing would be the tendency for 20s to get so trim and lightweight that they recoil excessively. Thls part of the world used to be well stocked with scaled-down, light 20 gauge shotguns that were okay with light upland loads but holy terrors to touch off in cold blood with a slug or heavy load in the pipe.

More than one wife has gotten her bell rung once too often after the family expert got her a new lightweight 20. I have a petite female relative who eventually ended up choosing a heavy pig of a 12 gauge for that reason.

How many of those were gas operated like the 1301? My experience shooting Brenneke slugs out of the inertia, not gas operated M2, was that slugs felt about like .308 out of an AR10, and were significantly softer than Brenneke slugs out of a 12 gauge.

[GJM]

Looking at the Brenneke slug offerings in 20 gauge, they have a 328 grain KO projectile, and a 437 grain magnum load. This compares to the 492 grain magnum 12 gauge load I use.

This allows a recoil sensitive shooter to pick a softer shooting slug. Or you can pick a harder recoiling, heavy for caliber slug with better sectional density than the twelve gauge offering, if you are around bears, and value a lighter to carry shotgun.

[gato naranja]

How many of those were gas operated like the 1301? My experience shooting Brenneke slugs out of the inertia, not gas operated M2, was that slugs felt about like .308 out of an AR10, and were significantly softer than Brenneke slugs out of a 12 gauge.

Legitimate questions.

Most of those light 20's were manual guns, and the majority of the light 20 semiautos were 11-48's or 1100s.

[RevolverRob]

Not quite. For it to be structurally viable, it would have to have the annular gas system in the tactical gas block location (vs the field one on the 20ga A400). Plus you'd need appropriate furniture to call it a tac gun; stuff that makes sense for a 20ga but is in line with our current standards in the Patrol and Mod.2. So its design and validation on a barrel and gas system, and furniture and associated tooling costs. So a biiiiit more costly than a bandsaw; if it was that easy I would have grabbed a hunting gun, a saw and some pack paint ages ago.

So...you're telling me there is a chance? ;)

[Ben_G]

I'm gonna go with 'I can neither confirm nor deny'

[Trigger]

I'm gonna go with 'I can neither confirm nor deny'

How about an A400 youth model with a shorter stock and barrel. Validate the gas system with the shorter barrel length. Then accessories such as an extended magazine tube and RDO mount. We can roll our own with less risk to the company. Items such as synthetic Tac forends can wait and see.

I remember one gun writer and shooting guru on this forum talking about the merits and advantages of 20ga for self defense years ago. Serving as a semi-auto 45-70 iwould be an added bonus.

I’m in for one.

[GJM]

I'm gonna go with 'I can neither confirm nor deny'

This is very interesting. Reading the tea leaves, I am going to say this translates to "not if, but when." Here is my reasoning. When we have discussed the 20 for defense in the past, the answer has been "no Flite Control, no semi that shoots as soft and is lightweight as a 1301 in 12." Now we have Flite Control, and a Beretta guy posting in the thread. With the Patrol and 1301 mods, Beretta clearly wants to keep its leadership in defensive shotguns. Finally, TC who has been posting in the new 20 Flite Control thread, and generally posts on defensive shotguns and Beretta, is conspicuous by his absence.

[mmc45414]

How about an A400 youth model with a shorter stock and barrel.
And then they also have a yoot model, that I believe is currently missing.


Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[Borderland]

I'm a shotgun guy, but not a tactical shotgun guy. Even I see a market for a SD 20 ga 1301. With a dot it could double as a slug gun for hogs and deer.

[Ben_G]

This is very interesting. Reading the tea leaves, I am going to say this translates to "not if, but when." Here is my reasoning. When we have discussed the 20 for defense in the past, the answer has been "no Flite Control, no semi that shoots as soft and is lightweight as a 1301 in 12." Now we have Flite Control, and a Beretta guy posting in the thread. With the Patrol and 1301 mods, Beretta clearly wants to keep its leadership in defensive shotguns. Finally, TC who has been posting in the new 20 Flite Control thread, and generally posts on defensive shotguns and Beretta, is conspicuous by his absence.

Y'all are reading wayyy too much between the lines on me haha. I saw a thread that was question about the 1301 and thought it'd be bad taste to ignore it since I'm active here.

I was a bit short on the answer because I'm flying out for SHOT tomorrow and there's a LOT flying around for last minute prep (it's pistols for me this year). I'd bet TC and MH are busy for similar reasons (I know MH is since I'm seeing him this weekend).

I thought no comment would be a safe funny answer but before this spins out: a less coy answer to the original question of:


So...you're telling me there is a chance? ;)

Sure, I guess there is. There's no technical reason it wouldn't work, but I wanted to be clear it's not exactly a small technical resources lift to do right. If that project was going to happen there'd be a big capex requirement as well in order to get the furniture up to par with out current standards. All that means years of development work with an open schedule and as you'll all see next week, that team hasn't exactly been sitting on their hands.

I certainly like the concept of this kind of gun, and yes I've discussed it with folks in the past; I personally do think it'd be a neat little gun. I'll be very curious to see how the new federal load performs in the correct length barrel. I'm with you all on this personally, and it's neat seeing other thoughts on this type of gun that I hadn't considered.

Professionally though, I'm not in a position to say anything about the future officially one way or another. I can just comment on stuff from the past, present public items, and some SME side general industry info.

[Caballoflaco]

I wonder if there would be much of a market for a 21” Turkey/Upland 20gauge ?

At least with the dudes I know who Turkey hunt locally 20 gauge has been more popular than 12 for the last couple of years.

[LHS]

I've long said that the 20ga could be a nigh-ideal defensive shotgun IF the ammo question is fixed the way it has been for 12ga. With 20ga FFC on the horizon, I truly hope that we start seeing the top names in defensive scatterguns embrace it. That said, like Ben pointed out, it's not as easy as taking a chop saw to an a400 hunting gun. But I'm hoping that the advent of 20ga FFC can spur enough interest in the medium gauge to make it financially viable to introduce proper, modern, 20ga fighting guns.

[MickAK]

Professionally though, I'm not in a position to say anything about the future officially one way or another. I can just comment on stuff from the past, present public items, and some SME side general industry info.

Too late, I already told my wife and one of my dogs that's what they're getting for Christmas.

[MandoWookie]

When it comes to the 'what does 20 do that 12 can't?' & 'what's the market?'

Well, I have 2 recent trends to point to:
1: 10mm handguns.

2: 5.7x28 firearms.

I've never seen good arguments for either, yet 10mm has seen a revival that surpasses its original hype, & 5.7 has even more so seen success that is frankly befuddling considering how much different a gun it demands than even 10mm, which is usually just a rechambered .45.

Neither of these had the in built demand or history of 20ga, it was created by marketing.

[GJM]

Twenty gauge was always my favorite bird hunting choice, and I spent many a happy hour with a Beretta over and under 20 gauge behind a happy Vizsla.

[Lunker]

Twenty gauge was always my favorite bird hunting choice, and I spent many a happy hour with a Beretta over and under 20 gauge behind a happy Vizsla.

+1 on that 20 gauge and happy Vizsla for pheasant.
And a lightweight, light recoiling gun is an arthritic shoulder’s best friend.

[LHS]

FWIW, I talked to one of the ammo guys at Federal last week at SHOT.

This fellow told me that the 20ga load was engineered specifically to get 12"-15" penetration in calibrated gel, which is why they had to go with 1325fps rather than a more sedate velocity. He also said he was getting about a 10" pattern @ 25 yards out of one of the test shockwaves, which is pretty solid performance.