PDA

View Full Version : Expereience with PSA ar's



digiadaamore
11-11-2012, 11:23 AM
Ok so PSA is fairly new but they seem to be using very high quality parts and check all the right boxes. the thing is when you try and research you get a bunch of crap from whining idiots:p does anyone here have any experience running one?

Up1911Fan
11-12-2012, 10:24 PM
I have a couple lowers from them i'm waiting/in the process of building up. No experience with complete rifles though.

Odin Bravo One
11-12-2012, 11:02 PM
I tend to let others beta test in this situation. There are plenty of quality rifles at, or even below PSA's price point. If the purpose is to be different, or first kid on the block with a PSA, so be it.

There are lots of builders who use quality parts. But a quality rifle is more than the sum of it's parts.

Before buying a PSA, I will let them get used on someone else's dime for a good two or three years.

Tamara
11-13-2012, 06:20 AM
I believe member Al T. (http://pistol-forum.com/member.php?1062-Al-T) has some familiarity with them.

orionz06
11-13-2012, 07:37 AM
I have built boxes full of lowers using their parts kits and have had the fewest (none) issues with their kits out of all he normally available kits. Their complete uppers have been good for friends of mine, enough so that if I see a decent deal I would buy one. I would suggest that you consider the political climate currently and the difference between a BCM/DD/Colt and a PSA gun by the time all the math is done. I suspect that if there is any legislation in the near future and extra $150 saved would mean a lot less then than now.

LittleLebowski
11-13-2012, 07:38 AM
I have a good friend who has had no issues with his. That's all I've got, sorry.

Al T.
11-13-2012, 10:13 AM
I'm in the same town as PSA and have been a customer pretty much from jump street. I am not an employee.

I do own several PSA stripped lowers, two complete uppers. My ARs are Colts and frankenguns. I only shoot about 2k of 5.56 per year. I'm sort of new to the AR system, only been shooting them (.mil to start) since 1977. :p

Here is my take on PSA. Early on, they got hooked up with FN for barrels (as do several other prominent companies) and what appears (from my contacts at FN) to be the same sources FN uses for the rest of the parts. Think LPKs, complete uppers and lowers, etc.

Two of my buddies are running PSA complete rifles. Only systemic issue appears to be that the FN barrels have mil-spec gas ports. That shows itself when .223 or under loaded ammo is used. Both buddies have had issues with PMC Bronze.

What I do know is that PSA has had a few lemons get out of the door and my personal opinion is that is due to the assembly process. I have not been "behind the curtain" there, but I do know the guy who was initially boss of that operation. No clue if he's still there. He is not Paul Buffoni. That is what I think PSA's weak spot is, assembly. Most of the time they do good work, but I'm more comfortable putting the parts together myself and running it hard.

As to price point, I am pretty much set for firearms. So, I don't get out much. :D I have found that PSAs specials are pretty good values.

And apparently contact by phone sucks. I've had decent service when ordering using email.

tmoore912
11-13-2012, 11:15 AM
I'm a inexperienced AR owner. Have had a couple over the years, but I am by no means a heavy user of the rifle.

Bought two PSA stripped lowers early this summer just to have on hand with no intention on building them out. Then they had their Labor Day sale, and the prices were crazy good from my standpoint. Bought a complete mid-length upper, MOE LBK, Tested BCG and charging handle. Delivery of Lowers, Upper and parts were all within the 15 day posted time frame. Those time frames are not being met now. They are taking much longer on some orders from what I am reading on the net.

Buying during the sales helped me put together the rifle I wanted for $722 and change delivered and FFL transfer. Without the Magpul stuff it would have been in the mid $600 range.

First time out after cleaning and lubing the rifle, It did great with about 150 rounds of 5.56, but was choking on crappy Remington UMC 45 grain .223 that I had left overs of.

Second time out after a thorough scrubbing of the chamber, cleaning and re-lube the rifle ran another 150 rounds of 5.56 with no issues. Also ran about 150 rounds of PMC .223 with no problems.

Since then, I've put another 150 of 5.56, 150 of .223 PMC and 150 of steal cased .223 through it with no malfunctions.

I like it, but obviously not fully tested and run hard.

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii218/tmoore912/AR15/IMG_3753_zps2f060441.jpg

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii218/tmoore912/AR15/IMG_3632.jpg

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii218/tmoore912/AR15/IMG_3630.jpg

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii218/tmoore912/AR15/IMG_3638.jpg

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii218/tmoore912/AR15/IMG_3656.jpg

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii218/tmoore912/AR15/IMG_3730_zpsa720130a.jpg

digiadaamore
11-13-2012, 03:20 PM
What I do know is that PSA has had a few lemons get out of the door and my personal opinion is that is due to the assembly process. I have not been "behind the curtain" there, but I do know the guy who was initially boss of that operation

i remember this, it was that they had not installed the gas tubes properly three got out that way, i also remember their response. They immediately fired the guy who put them together and started test firing every rifle(which they should have anyway in my opinion) but im pretty sure that issue has definitely been solved. thanks for the info

digiadaamore
11-13-2012, 03:23 PM
Here is my take on PSA. Early on, they got hooked up with FN for barrels (as do several other prominent companies) and what appears (from my contacts at FN) to be the same sources FN uses for the rest of the parts. Think LPKs, complete uppers and lowers, etc.

about this i know they use Toolcraft bcg's same as fn like you said. and anchor harvey forgings machined by aero precision for the receivers. the way i feel, FN AR's are pretty freakin tested, so if its the same parts just assembled at PSA then im pretty confident in the end result

digiadaamore
11-13-2012, 03:35 PM
I tend to let others beta test in this situation. There are plenty of quality rifles at, or even below PSA's price point. If the purpose is to be different, or first kid on the block with a PSA, so be it.

There are lots of builders who use quality parts. But a quality rifle is more than the sum of it's parts.

Before buying a PSA, I will let them get used on someone else's dime for a good two or three years.

sean, who do feel makes a quality rifle at or below PSA, im very interested in your opinion. to me theres colt and then guns that cost more for no reason but below them ive only found psa?

Al T.
11-13-2012, 05:57 PM
started test firing every rifle

I don't know if that's true or not. I can find out, probably be next week as I'm out till then. Thinking about it, I'm puzzled as to where they do this.....

digiadaamore
11-13-2012, 06:01 PM
I don't know if that's true or not. I can find out, probably be next week as I'm out till then. Thinking about it, I'm puzzled as to where they do this.....

ill try diggin it up gimme a few

Edit: cant find it but it was a post directly from palmetto on M4C, they basically said they had acquired a setup they could mount the uppers directly onto and test fire them

JMS
11-19-2012, 03:11 PM
Their components are solid work.

Their business-practice still needs some work. They're slow to respond to customers, but when they DO manage to do so, it's decisive. They've managed to send out at least one upper with a live round in the chamber (they fired that cat, though...as stated, decisive). Shipping delays. Mid-length uppers sent with carbine-length gas tubes.

I think that they'll get a handle on themselves in terms of how they run their shop....eventually.

The live-round thing makes me look in askance of their assembled-in-house items. Even knowing that random gaffes occur, if they're missing stuff like that prior to shipping, what else in their assembly process is potentially upgefucht? Hence, why I'd have no problem assembling a gun from their components, but wouldn't chance using anything assembled from them without giving it a VERY thorough once-over prior to shooting it, to ensure it's been put together properly.

The one problematic PSA gun I've seen in classes, of perhaps 3 dozen (round counts ranging from single digits to about 7k), was the victim of a loose gas key; it happens, nothing wrong with the BCG or hardware from a material standpoint. Fixed it on-site, ran problem-free for the remaining 2 days.

Their hardware is good enough that I hope they keep up with their positive efforts to see to their software problems.

Odin Bravo One
11-19-2012, 06:37 PM
My apologies for completely forgetting about this topic. I won't bother to make an excuse. I just plain forgot.

JMS brings up some solid points. Quality parts are the base for a good rifle. But like a good soup, the base is going to get you only so far.

A quality, dependable rifle is more than the just the sum of it's parts. Proper assembly, preferably by trained and experienced armorers is in order. QA/QC matters as well.



At the PSA price range, and having a choice, I would pick S&W.

No, the models in that price range don't come all prettied up with accessories or rails, or whatever, but they are subject to at least some QC/QA, and also use quality components. S&W M&P15's have also performed admirably in the field, and in training with many domestic LE agencies. In my (rare these days) night/weekend job, we see a fair share of S&W's, and rare is the specimen that cannot hold up over 1500 rounds in a couple of days. There are some. No one is perfect, and EVERYONE makes crap every once in awhile......but it is not commonplace. The smaller builders jumping into the game these days often have the attractive price tag. But what are we really saving? More often than not, it is under hard use, or harsh conditions where we see guns fail. Those not properly assembled are the first ones down, followed by those with inferior components. The "well, it is my GTHD gun, and won't swimming in swamps" argument holds up well. Right up until it doesn't. Pretending to have a crystal ball is not the same as actually having one.

If the rifle/carbine is going to sit in the safe, closet, corner, wherever.......and only see 200 rounds per year in controlled sustained or random plinking fire, then the brand is pretty irrelevant. But if the gun is going to be run hard, in serious training evolutions, and/or be relied on to work when one needs it, then a higher quality rifle is in order.

The boutique/niche/custom builders who have established reputations for outstanding performance and accuracy in a service rifle, obviously fall into the other end of the spectrum in terms of price. But that cost not only gets you top quality components, but it also gives you trained, experienced assembly based off of MilSpec, or greater standards and tolerances, high QA/QC, and in my experience, top tier customer service.

Reality is that you do get what you pay for to an extent. Especially in the realm of EBR's. Does it mean a serious or hardcore rifle/carbine shooter needs to invest in a high end custom/production custom rifle? No. Not hardly.

S&W comes in with their entry level carbines/rifles at a price competitive with most of the cheapest guns on the market. A Colt 6920 is rarely more than a couple of bills over even the cheapest POS rifles out there. In most cases, it is right around $200. Yes, you do have to shop. You can't just go to the LGS, or the first site popped on Google. But good deals are out there. I get it that these entry level guns don't come with the snoochie, look cool accessories, but if I am just getting into the AR platform, and money is a limiting factor, now is not the time to try to invest in accessories, or buy cheaper just because the cheaper gun comes with a rail. Shoot it a bit first, then look at what else you need, how it affects performance, and the trade off involved with adding it to your rifle. There is a lot of truth to the Cliche' of "If it's not a Colt, It's a copy". No one has more time putting those guns together than Colt. No one comes even close. And since they build all of their DI rifles to MilSpec, using MilSpec components, there is at least a standard. Is it the best standard? Maybe. Maybe not. Debatable for those who like to debate such things. But it is at least A standard. And it is known, and adhered to.

I also understand that money is tight in this economy, and a rifle that comes in $200 or $300 under the gold standard appears to be an attractive alternative. That savings is 2/3 of a case of ammo. But if one can get past the instant gratification urge, and salt away the nickels for a few more weeks, or even months if required, they will usually find not only satisfaction in not settling for less, but also confidence in a quality built rifle, such as a Colt. Confidence in a rifle, or any weapon system, once lost is very, very difficult to get back. All it takes is one bad example, followed up with less than stellar customer service, and confidence is gone. Plinker, or toy......no problem. Pout about it. Post on the internet about it.

Offensive or defensive tool?

Big problem.

Example:

Even though a talented, highly respected trainer, and gifted rifle shooter, who is a buddy of mine, who happens to also work for a particular company, enthusiastically endorses their product based on performance and personal experience on those guns.................Well...........I had a bad specimen once. Once. Just one example of a particular model. A long time ago. And while I totally trust his personal opinion as a friend, and without a doubt trust his professional opinion as a seasoned shooter and instructor, I have a hard time putting faith in any of them. The let down in that rifle left a lasting impression. Not what we want if we are talking about a fighting gun. Especially if we had to pay our hard earned money for it.

I have my personal preference brand for AR's, and generally, they are out of the price range for casual shooters, and even honest to goodness defensive minded shooters who can't afford, or don't want to spend that kind of money on a rifle. But I also have Colt's/DD's, and with extremely rare exceptions, have not wanted for something more. And usually when I did want for more, it was a configuration issue, not a "lack of performance based on quality" issue.

It is really hard to go wrong with Colt or Daniel Defense. Both build true MilSpec guns. BCM puts together a decent rifle as well. If stuck at entry level, lower end prices due to economical constraints, S&W can be an attractive alternative to shops that are still working out their own bugs with assembly, QA/QC, and CS. Certainly buying quality components alone, and DIY-ing the assembly puts PSA's prices into the "Say whaaaa?" category at times. But the right tools, and particulars about critical component assembly/configuration (the knowledge and experience of the builder) still come into play. I can count on one hand the number of non-professionals who own ALL of the PROPER tools to assemble from scratch all of the components the way it should be done. The way it is done by the major players, and the top custom builders. Also not everyone is limited to Al's meager time on that system.............some of us are still actually learning about it. I have all of the confidence in my ability to properly assemble an AR from parts, and I build enough personal guns for co-workers I have racked up a good deal of tools. But when my 20 years time on the gun becomes 40, I am sure I will look back and make fun of myself for being such an arrogant "know it all". Even among the school trained Colt and MIL armorers, I see a lot of light bulbs at various stages over their careers. I still get them myself, more often than I care to admit in public.



*Disclaimer* These are my opinions, and that's it. Nothing more. I am still not getting paid to be the gun police, so until that day comes, I don't get hung up on what brand of rifle, or pistol, or ammunition, or whatever a particular shooter chooses to buy and use. Your money, your gear. You know much better than I do what your requirements are, and what they are not.

WDW
11-19-2012, 09:01 PM
To add to Sean M's deal comment, I picked up my NIB Colt 6920 Magpuled out for $979 OTD, no tax.

Aray
11-20-2012, 09:47 AM
My apologies for completely forgetting about this topic. I won't bother to make an excuse. I just plain forgot.

JMS brings up some solid points. Quality parts are the base for a good rifle. But like a good soup, the base is going to get you only so far.

A quality, dependable rifle is more than the just the sum of it's parts. Proper assembly, preferably by trained and experienced armorers is in order. QA/QC matters as well.



At the PSA price range, and having a choice, I would pick S&W.

No, the models in that price range don't come all prettied up with accessories or rails, or whatever, but they are subject to at least some QC/QA, and also use quality components. S&W M&P15's have also performed admirably in the field, and in training with many domestic LE agencies. In my (rare these days) night/weekend job, we see a fair share of S&W's, and rare is the specimen that cannot hold up over 1500 rounds in a couple of days. There are some. No one is perfect, and EVERYONE makes crap every once in awhile......but it is not commonplace. The smaller builders jumping into the game these days often have the attractive price tag. But what are we really saving? More often than not, it is under hard use, or harsh conditions where we see guns fail. Those not properly assembled are the first ones down, followed by those with inferior components. The "well, it is my GTHD gun, and won't swimming in swamps" argument holds up well. Right up until it doesn't. Pretending to have a crystal ball is not the same as actually having one.

If the rifle/carbine is going to sit in the safe, closet, corner, wherever.......and only see 200 rounds per year in controlled sustained or random plinking fire, then the brand is pretty irrelevant. But if the gun is going to be run hard, in serious training evolutions, and/or be relied on to work when one needs it, then a higher quality rifle is in order.

The boutique/niche/custom builders who have established reputations for outstanding performance and accuracy in a service rifle, obviously fall into the other end of the spectrum in terms of price. But that cost not only gets you top quality components, but it also gives you trained, experienced assembly based off of MilSpec, or greater standards and tolerances, high QA/QC, and in my experience, top tier customer service.

Reality is that you do get what you pay for to an extent. Especially in the realm of EBR's. Does it mean a serious or hardcore rifle/carbine shooter needs to invest in a high end custom/production custom rifle? No. Not hardly.

S&W comes in with their entry level carbines/rifles at a price competitive with most of the cheapest guns on the market. A Colt 6920 is rarely more than a couple of bills over even the cheapest POS rifles out there. In most cases, it is right around $200. Yes, you do have to shop. You can't just go to the LGS, or the first site popped on Google. But good deals are out there. I get it that these entry level guns don't come with the snoochie, look cool accessories, but if I am just getting into the AR platform, and money is a limiting factor, now is not the time to try to invest in accessories, or buy cheaper just because the cheaper gun comes with a rail. Shoot it a bit first, then look at what else you need, how it affects performance, and the trade off involved with adding it to your rifle. There is a lot of truth to the Cliche' of "If it's not a Colt, It's a copy". No one has more time putting those guns together than Colt. No one comes even close. And since they build all of their DI rifles to MilSpec, using MilSpec components, there is at least a standard. Is it the best standard? Maybe. Maybe not. Debatable for those who like to debate such things. But it is at least A standard. And it is known, and adhered to.

I also understand that money is tight in this economy, and a rifle that comes in $200 or $300 under the gold standard appears to be an attractive alternative. That savings is 2/3 of a case of ammo. But if one can get past the instant gratification urge, and salt away the nickels for a few more weeks, or even months if required, they will usually find not only satisfaction in not settling for less, but also confidence in a quality built rifle, such as a Colt. Confidence in a rifle, or any weapon system, once lost is very, very difficult to get back. All it takes is one bad example, followed up with less than stellar customer service, and confidence is gone. Plinker, or toy......no problem. Pout about it. Post on the internet about it.

Offensive or defensive tool?

Big problem.

Example:

Even though a talented, highly respected trainer, and gifted rifle shooter, who is a buddy of mine, who happens to also work for a particular company, enthusiastically endorses their product based on performance and personal experience on those guns.................Well...........I had a bad specimen once. Once. Just one example of a particular model. A long time ago. And while I totally trust his personal opinion as a friend, and without a doubt trust his professional opinion as a seasoned shooter and instructor, I have a hard time putting faith in any of them. The let down in that rifle left a lasting impression. Not what we want if we are talking about a fighting gun. Especially if we had to pay our hard earned money for it.

I have my personal preference brand for AR's, and generally, they are out of the price range for casual shooters, and even honest to goodness defensive minded shooters who can't afford, or don't want to spend that kind of money on a rifle. But I also have Colt's/DD's, and with extremely rare exceptions, have not wanted for something more. And usually when I did want for more, it was a configuration issue, not a "lack of performance based on quality" issue.

It is really hard to go wrong with Colt or Daniel Defense. Both build true MilSpec guns. BCM puts together a decent rifle as well. If stuck at entry level, lower end prices due to economical constraints, S&W can be an attractive alternative to shops that are still working out their own bugs with assembly, QA/QC, and CS. Certainly buying quality components alone, and DIY-ing the assembly puts PSA's prices into the "Say whaaaa?" category at times. But the right tools, and particulars about critical component assembly/configuration (the knowledge and experience of the builder) still come into play. I can count on one hand the number of non-professionals who own ALL of the PROPER tools to assemble from scratch all of the components the way it should be done. The way it is done by the major players, and the top custom builders. Also not everyone is limited to Al's meager time on that system.............some of us are still actually learning about it. I have all of the confidence in my ability to properly assemble an AR from parts, and I build enough personal guns for co-workers I have racked up a good deal of tools. But when my 20 years time on the gun becomes 40, I am sure I will look back and make fun of myself for being such an arrogant "know it all". Even among the school trained Colt and MIL armorers, I see a lot of light bulbs at various stages over their careers. I still get them myself, more often than I care to admit in public.



*Disclaimer* These are my opinions, and that's it. Nothing more. I am still not getting paid to be the gun police, so until that day comes, I don't get hung up on what brand of rifle, or pistol, or ammunition, or whatever a particular shooter chooses to buy and use. Your money, your gear. You know much better than I do what your requirements are, and what they are not.

Can I discretely steal some quotes out of this for future use?

Al T.
11-20-2012, 01:32 PM
Also not everyone is limited to Al's meager time on that system.............some of us are still actually learning about it.

LOL, some of that time was ill spent doing stupid Big Army stuff like boiling our rifles and bolt carriers. (not kidding) As to the learning part, guys like Pat Rogers were the gurus that got folks focused more on fighting with a gun.

While there are charlatans around, it's a good time to learn how to shoot and then fight with a firearm.

65k10
12-10-2012, 04:28 PM
I've used their lpk's in a few guns and they seem to go together ok. Not sure how well they'll hold up since they're in guns I don't use hard. I'm pretty much lost on who makes a good lpk anymore since while there seems to be a significant price difference between PSA kits and other kits, I've noticed the same marking on parts like the fcg in both my PSA kits and a Colt carbine I have.