18650 Battery Shows Fully Charged, but Does Not Work

[El Cid]

This is a pink Samsung that came with a REIN weapon light. The rifle it's on is very low round count and spends most of its time in the safe. The battery shows fully charged on the Nitecore charger. But it does not work in any of the several lights I tried it in. Also, the REIN works fine with other batteries.

Thoughts? If it's dead, what is a better brand to replace it with?

FWIW the stamp on the battery is INR18650-30Q Samsung SDI 141

Thanks in advance!

[blues]

NH Shooter

He'll get you squared away.

[BillSWPA]

This is a pink Samsung that came with a REIN weapon light. The rifle it's on is very low round count and spends most of its time in the safe. The battery shows fully charged on the Nitecore charger. But it does not work in any of the several lights I tried it in. Also, the REIN works fine with other batteries.

Thoughts? If it's dead, what is a better brand to replace it with?

FWIW the stamp on the battery is INR18650-30Q Samsung SDI 141

Thanks in advance!

Do you have a volt meter? If so, what is the voltage on that battery?

[blues]

Do you have a volt meter? If so, what is the voltage on that battery?

If his Nitecore charger is like mine, it'll read out the volts. (4.20 is max for 18650.)

A separate volt meter would be helpful to confirm, however.

[BillSWPA]

I looked up the cell, and it is unprotected. So, that rules out an issue with the protection circuit.

[Paul Blackburn]

If it's unprotected the battery may have over discharged which shortens the lifespan.

Not sure if that has anything to do with the charger reading fully charged though.

[El Cid]

I don’t have a separate volt meter. The Notecore says 1.87v.

Interestingly I just moved it to the other side of the charger and it’s charging like normal. And the volts are slowly climbing while the progress bar is at one. I tried this earlier and it was shaking a full charge on the progress bars. It’s now at 2.60. Even if it takes a charge this time (6+ tries in two days), I don’t know I can trust this battery. Is this kind of thing normal? Is there a way to rule out the Nitecore charger?

[blues]

I don’t have a separate volt meter. The Notecore says 1.87v.

Interestingly I just moved it to the other side of the charger and it’s charging like normal. And the volts are slowly climbing while the progress bar is at one. I tried this earlier and it was shaking a full charge on the progress bars. It’s now at 2.60. Even if it takes a charge this time (6+ tries in two days), I don’t know I can trust this battery. Is this kind of thing normal? Is there a way to rule out the Nitecore charger?

I'd get a protected cell if it fits the unit. There are many good ones out there...including Nitecore's rebrand of Sanyo or Panasonic or whoever they use.

I only have a couple of unprotected cells for smaller lights that I couldn't find an alternative for.

I'll let others discuss how to rule out the Nitecore charger having a bad unit on one side of the device. (It would help if you had other batteries to test with as well.)

[NH Shooter]

I don’t have a separate volt meter. The Notecore says 1.87v.

Interestingly I just moved it to the other side of the charger and it’s charging like normal. And the volts are slowly climbing while the progress bar is at one. I tried this earlier and it was shaking a full charge on the progress bars. It’s now at 2.60. Even if it takes a charge this time (6+ tries in two days), I don’t know I can trust this battery. Is this kind of thing normal? Is there a way to rule out the Nitecore charger?

Not much to go wrong with an unprotected cell, so most likely the charger - especially that it's now charging normally on the other side.

Allowing it to drop to 1.87 volts has most likely shortened the life of the cell.

[BillSWPA]

I don’t have a separate volt meter. The Notecore says 1.87v.

Interestingly I just moved it to the other side of the charger and it’s charging like normal. And the volts are slowly climbing while the progress bar is at one. I tried this earlier and it was shaking a full charge on the progress bars. It’s now at 2.60. Even if it takes a charge this time (6+ tries in two days), I don’t know I can trust this battery. Is this kind of thing normal? Is there a way to rule out the Nitecore charger?

I suggest buying a digital multimeter. Decent ones can be found relatively inexpensively. Although I use a ZTS tester for most cell types, a voltmeter is the best way to monitor the status of Li-Ion cells.

Does the Nitecore charger also charge MiMH cells? Is it possible that the voltage got low enough so that it misidentified the type of cell and compared the voltage to full for that type of cell?

[whomever]

"I suggest buying a digital multimeter. Decent ones can be found relatively inexpensively."

I just ordered one of these:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09W8LJPH5

It hasn't gotten here yet. I got it on the gushing recommendation of a friend who is kind of a meter freak, as in he used to work at Fluke and has a collection of high end Fluke meters, and he was all "How can they make a meter this good for $10". I'm just a dweeb who checks voltages, but wanted a cheap meter to leave at the cabin, and $10 is cheap :-).


(as far as hinky lithium ion batteries, I view them like hinky reloads. When in doubt, throw it out.)

[blues]

Mine does NiMH but I don't like the way it works with them and went back to the Eneloop charger. It's great with lithium batteries though.

[Archer1440]

You should remember that unprotected 18650's are basically the equivalent of small, powerful thermite grenades- with a loose pin. (Protected cells are too, but they have a fuse designed to kill them in conditions that would cause an unprotected cell to run away and explode.)

If a battery in this class starts behaving oddly, the safest plan is to take it to a recycler.

Genuine Samsungs are pretty good, if a bit old in terms of technology, and if it came from CD then it's most likely not a counterfeit, but you should be aware that there are tons of cheap Chinese counterfeits out there. Many on Amazon.

You also have to use the correct max amperage cell design to get full illumination from high performance lights like the Rein and various Modlites. The nominal 3500 mAh rating on most of these needs to be considered in view of the cell continuous discharge characteristics, different 18650's have different discharge curves and higher capacity does not equal better performance in all cases when used in a high drain application like a high candela weapon light. You generally need at least 10A continuous rating. For example, the Sony/Murata VTC6 is rated at 3000 mAh, which is less than the top storage capacities for the firm factor (around 3550) but it will sustain 15-20A continuous output (depending on temperature) and will actually last longer in a weapon light like a Rein, OWL, or Modlight PLH series.

Your CD light can be adjusted internally to accept a protected cell and that is what you ought to run if you don't have a lot of experience with this class of power cell. Unprotected cells are downright dangerous if mishandled.

I get my protected cells directly from Orbtronic, Surefire and Modlite, or if I need unprotected, genuine Sony/Murata VTC6's (which outperform the older Samsungs) from known good suppliers - and have had minimal issues with any of them.

But I treat them like a pet snake. With caution.

[NH Shooter]

I agree with Archer1440's post above, but would add that if you're competent enough to safely handle and carry a handgun, you should most certainly be competent enough to handle and carry unprotected cells (or any Li-ion cells for that matter) by following a few basic safety rules. The first bullet point here (https://www.edclightbuilder.com/battery-safety/) covers them, the rest of the points delve into the minutia.

That said, IMO WMLs should be powered by primary cells (CR123 batteries). They hold a charge much longer (for weapon storage considerations), can handle cold temperatures better and are (for the most part) safer to handle.

[El Cid]

Thanks everyone! I do recall seeing NiMH on the display of the charger at some point. It finally charged and works again. I don’t store the batteries or handle them in any manner that would go against the rules in that link. I also keep the light heads backed off when a weapon is in the safe so it can’t accidentally activate.

Other than the batteries that come with a light I don’t have any other 18350’s or 18650’s. When I pick up some spares are there benefits over the regular models and the ones like Streamlight use that charge with micro USB?

[Archer1440]

Thanks everyone! I do recall seeing NiMH on the display of the charger at some point. It finally charged and works again. I don’t store the batteries or handle them in any manner that would go against the rules in that link. I also keep the light heads backed off when a weapon is in the safe so it can’t accidentally activate.

Other than the batteries that come with a light I don’t have any other 18350’s or 18650’s. When I pick up some spares are there benefits over the regular models and the ones like Streamlight use that charge with micro USB?

The Streamlight and Surefire batteries with the built-in charging have the obvious advantage of being easily recharged when away from your charging device, but they are longer and may or may not fit your specific light. Obviously they work fine in the respective company devices intended for them.

My (older) Cloud lights and handheld 18650 Modlites work fine with the Surefire batteries.

Quick note to mention that primary batteries (CR123) are NOT suitable for lights designed specifically for 18350/18650 cells unless specifically stated as “dual fuel”. Incorrect use of primaries in non Dual Fuel lights can literally start a fire.

[NH Shooter]

Quick note to mention that primary batteries (CR123) are NOT suitable for lights designed specifically for 18350/18650 cells unless specifically stated as “dual fuel”. Incorrect use of primaries in non Dual Fuel lights can literally start a fire.

Correct, thanks for pointing that out! That's why IMO WMLs that are designed to work only with Li-ion cells are a step in the wrong direction. Modlite Legacy Enhanced heads, as well as some very capable Malkoff E-series heads are true "dual fuel" and will operate with either. For range outings take advantage of rechargeable Li-ion, but store the weapon for immediate use with fresh/unused CR123 batteries in the light.

IMO, cells with built-in charging circuits have way too much to go wrong for use in a WML. I'm even skeptical of using regular protected cells in WMLs as that thin PCB on the negative terminal is rather fragile.

[ubet]

This is a pink Samsung that came with a REIN weapon light. The rifle it's on is very low round count and spends most of its time in the safe. The battery shows fully charged on the Nitecore charger. But it does not work in any of the several lights I tried it in. Also, the REIN works fine with other batteries.

Thoughts? If it's dead, what is a better brand to replace it with?

FWIW the stamp on the battery is INR18650-30Q Samsung SDI 141

Thanks in advance!

I’ve had great luck with the batteries modlite sells.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[NH Shooter]

I’ve had great luck with the batteries modlite sells.

Modlite does not make Li-ion cells (https://modlite.com/collections/batteries/products/modlite-18650-3500mah-batteries), theirs are private labelled. Buy them from the same vendor as Modlite at nearly half the price (https://liionwholesale.com/collections/batteries/products/protected-mj1-18650-battery-genuine-tested-10a-3500mah-button-top-wholesale-discount?variant=12530399684).

Keeppower and Orbtronic are Tier 1 cells - buy with confidence.

[BillSWPA]

Add Eagletac and Klarus to the list of good choices. I have also used Modlite and Keeppower with good results.

I prefer protected cells whenever possible because not everyone in my family understands Li-ion safety. I have not yet had a problem with a protection circuit. I agree that a cell with its own charging port is unnecessary and overcomplicated, although I can see it being nice if one is traveling and forgot a charger. Using a good quality smart charger seems to work faster.

[Paul Blackburn]

I agree with Archer1440's post above, but would add that if you're competent enough to safely handle and carry a handgun, you should most certainly be competent enough to handle and carry unprotected cells (or any Li-ion cells for that matter) by following a few basic safety rules. The first bullet point here (https://www.edclightbuilder.com/battery-safety/) covers them, the rest of the points delve into the minutia.

That said, IMO WMLs should be powered by primary cells (CR123 batteries). They hold a charge much longer (for weapon storage considerations), can handle cold temperatures better and are (for the most part) safer to handle.

Do you still stand by the post below or has your thinking changed some what?


Protected vs. unprotected - I use both, depending on the light and who's using it. For the lights I carry, I use unprotected cells.

The biggest benefit of a protected cell in terms of human safety is if the battery is shorted, the protection circuit will open (like a circuit breaker) and prevent the user from catastrophic cell failure (fire, possible explosion). Of course the only way to short the cell is to do something stupid, like placing the cell in a pocket with keys and/or loose change. As long as the cell remains in the flashlight or is stored in the container it came with when not in use, you'd have to work pretty hard to have accidental shorting. IMO, if you're competent enough to be handling/carrying a pistol, you're competent enough to use unprotected cells.

Another point to consider - unprotected IMR flat top cells use a different chemistry than protected cells. IMR cells have lower capacity, but also lower internal resistance so they can handle higher current before overheating - which provides an important safety edge.

The circuit also protects the cell from over-discharge, which would shorten its life. In a single-cell light, you're likely to notice considerable dimming before the cells drops below 2.5V under load and the protection circuit opens. If the light has become noticeably dim during use, change or recharge the cell. In multi-cell lights, it's far more likely the cells will become over-discharged before the light noticeably dims. In this case, you either have to be more vigilant on tracking run time or use protected cells. For our "walk-the-dogs" multi-cell light that my wife also uses, it runs on protected cells for this reason.

The protection circuit is a thin wafer PCB on the negative end of the cell. One consequential knock against protected cells is that the wafer can be damaged or fail, causing the light to become inoperative even if the cell has plenty of charge. For this reason, many "in the know" consider the use of protected cells in critical-use lights (especially WMLs that are subject to recoil) as a non-starter.

Does this mean use CR123's?

In summary, unprotected cells offer improved durability, reliability and higher current handling for critical-use devices with little-to-no downside for the knowledgeable user. For lights that are not critical-use and/or going to be used by those who have not been educated on the safe use and handling of Li-ion cells, the use of protected cells is prudent.

[NH Shooter]

Do you still stand by the post below or has your thinking changed some what?

IMO, all have their places.

In 2-cell hand held "casual use" lights (2 x 18500, 2 x 18650, etc.) I try to use protected cells whenever possible. This is because there will likely be little-to-no visible dimming of the light before the cells get critically low. This is especially a concern if non-enthusiasts are using the light (like my wife using the walk-the-dog light).

In single cell hand held "casual use" lights, either protected or unprotected IMR will do for me. Most 1-cell (18350, 18650, etc.) will get mighty dim before the cell is over-discharged, giving indication the cell should be recharged.

For my high-intensity, dedicated hand held fight lights, I prefer using IMR unprotected cells for their high current handling capability and improved reliability (no fragile PCB to fail). In my case the lights in this category are primarily single-cell lights that use IMR 18350 unprotected cells.

For weapon mounted lights, I'm an advocate of primary cells (CR123 batteries) due to their ability to hold a charge for years. If I need to pull a long gun out of the safe that has not been used for a long time, I want the WML to be fully functional without having to recharge the cell between uses.

This is what works for me. YMMV

[Paul Blackburn]

IMO, all have their places.

In 2-cell hand held "casual use" lights (2 x 18500, 2 x 18650, etc.) I try to use protected cells whenever possible. This is because there will likely be little-to-no visible dimming of the light before the cells get critically low. This is especially a concern if non-enthusiasts are using the light (like my wife using the walk-the-dog light).

In single cell hand held "casual use" lights, either protected or unprotected IMR will do for me. Most 1-cell (18350, 18650, etc.) will get mighty dim before the cell is over-discharged, giving indication the cell should be recharged.

For my high-intensity, dedicated hand held fight lights, I prefer using IMR unprotected cells for their high current handling capability and improved reliability (no fragile PCB to fail). In my case the lights in this category are primarily single-cell lights that use IMR 18350 unprotected cells.

For weapon mounted lights, I'm an advocate of primary cells (CR123 batteries) due to their ability to hold a charge for years. If I need to pull a long gun out of the safe that has not been used for a long time, I want the WML to be fully functional without having to recharge the cell between uses.

This is what works for me. YMMV

Thank you for the excellent explanation!
Much appreciated!