Production 15 in '24

[fatdog]

Current board drama aside.

This is something that should have happened back in 2005, my choice would have been 17 rounds, but finally this overdue attempt fix to the division based on the original intent for having it will now come to pass before next shooting season kicks up.

I do not think this is going to draw lots of current shooters back to the division. The sport is an optics and 9mm minor sport at this point at the club level, with the other divisions dying in terms of what most competitors choose.

While I am not part of the target demographic for production, I suspect it will be my choice for 50% of my matches next year because of this change, so maybe it is just a super senior over the hill boomer thing with me. I like my production guns. It is still what I carry most often. The mag changes have annoyed but never completely deterred me and I know it annoys the piss out of most people.

When Production came into being back in the late 90's it was 100% about giving completely new shooters a non-gear centric entry point into the game. I hope it can still be that.

It was of course 10 rounds because it came to existence during the Klinton ban, when 10 rounders were all that came with a new gun and all that could be purchased for a new shooter unless you wanted to shell out $75-100 per mag for prebans if you even knew where to find them. Sadly it will still have to be shot that way in the communist states on the west coast and the northeast.

I think however the high number of magazine changes it entailed had really become discouraging to new shooters in this era. Perhaps this mitigates that some.

We ran a 2 hour intro to USPSA class this year for our club members who had never been to a match. We have done this for two decades and it has taught us that at the club level, removing the intimidation factor of not knowing what to do, or fear of looking stupid for the first match kept many people from even trying the sport. This inoculation absolutely works and removes the mystery and fear factor for many. Getting those new shooters from the ranks of our club is essential to keeping a supply of help for setting up and running matches.

It drew about a dozen people, at least half of whom I know starting shooting this year. 2/3 of those shooters showed up with iron sighted guns suitable for production division. I shot the demo on our 28 round stage set up for the class as production and my partner in putting together that class shot his carry optics rig. All those folks noted that I had done 3 mag changes (to make best use of the "movement only" space there was, and not have a mag change in the middle of a shooting position) and my compadre had only one and how it cost me time and shifted my focus a bit during movement.

But all of them had 17 and in many cases 20 round mags. Our discussion at the end of the session was either about them wanting to get an optic for their current gun and learning the dot or them asking if they were ok if they shot limited minor. None of them, all just discovering the game, wanted to really try production. That was only about the number of mag changes they perceived they did not want to deal with.

I think for a new shooter, learning to plan the stage, and then trying to remember everything as they work their way through it, the extra mag changes production currently imposes are an unnecessary distraction. This 15 round thing may or may not change the perception of the division for that originally intended audience for production. As always we shall see.

[Artemas2]

Not sure If I want to switch to L10 minor or dump another $100+ into mags:D

It won't draw anyone away from CO and as I was informed after shooting a 45 round stage, apparently 32 round limits are no longer a thing at level 1s:mad: So nothing is really changed...
But hey it's in line with IPSC now for the 6 people who actually shoot both!


Ok now that's out of my system.

Seeing this coming for over a year I am looking forward to see if there is anything substantially different about how the game plays,
and how/if they adjust the HHF on some of the classifiers. This spring could be a good time to push a bit.

[Jim Watson]

Had to keep up with IDPA going to SSP15.

I think it will be a drop in the bucket, the present perception is that if you haven't got a dot you just aren't With It.

[JCS]

Not sure If I want to switch to L10 minor or dump another $100+ into mags:D

It won't draw anyone away from CO and as I was informed after shooting a 45 round stage, apparently 32 round limits are no longer a thing at level 1s:mad: So nothing is really changed...
But hey it's in line with IPSC now for the 6 people who actually shoot both!


Ok now that's out of my system.

Seeing this coming for over a year I am looking forward to see if there is anything substantially different about how the game plays,
and how/if they adjust the HHF on some of the classifiers. This spring could be a good time to push a bit.

Why would you have to buy new mags to go from 10 rounds to 15 rounds?

[Artemas2]

Why would you have to buy new mags to go from 10 rounds to 15 rounds?

Because I only have 10 rounders for my shadow 2. I live on the border of NY so half my matches are there. Plus it's easier to just load em up after a stage and not have to worry about counting.

[RJ]

There's a Level 1 match an hour or so north of me in Gainesville FL on 1/7/24.

Does anyone know if this (15 round in Production) is "go" as of 1/1/2024? If not no problem, I'll just go and ask the MD if I end up registering.

I am in between optics and would just run iron sights for this match, hence the question.

[fatdog]

takes effect officially on 1/31

[MGW]

Not sure If I want to switch to L10 minor or dump another $100+ into mags:D

It won't draw anyone away from CO and as I was informed after shooting a 45 round stage, apparently 32 round limits are no longer a thing at level 1s:mad: So nothing is really changed...
But hey it's in line with IPSC now for the 6 people who actually shoot both!


Ok now that's out of my system.

Seeing this coming for over a year I am looking forward to see if there is anything substantially different about how the game plays,
and how/if they adjust the HHF on some of the classifiers. This spring could be a good time to push a bit.


How much participation is there in L10 minor?

[fatdog]

... it's easier to just load em up after a stage and not have to worry about counting.

For that reason alone, I just ordered some of the factory 15 round Glock 17/34 mags and factory 15 Beretta PX4 full size mags.

I am intensely annoyed by having to dump partial mags and count rounds to reload them in the middle of match for old production division or IDPA, as opposed to just topping each of them off. I never fully trust the witness holes for accomplishing the top off accurately, especially since I cannot see small stuff like that anymore.

[Artemas2]

How much participation is there in L10 minor?

Wouldn't be the first time I competed against myself;)


For that reason alone, I just ordered some of the factory 15 round Glock 17/34 mags and factory 15 Beretta PX4 full size mags.

I am intensely annoyed by having to dump partial mags and count rounds to reload them in the middle of match for old production division or IDPA, as opposed to just topping each of them off. I never fully trust the witness holes for accomplishing the top off accurately.

For CZ and sig mags, Henning recently started making a follower with an adjustable screw that limits the capacity of full size mag, I might look into those. I have to either get new base-pads or followers anyway since mec-gar change the shape of the follower retaining pin.
https://www.henningshop.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=1522238&CAT=10024

[steve]

For that reason alone, I just ordered some of the factory 15 round Glock 17/34 mags and factory 15 Beretta PX4 full size mags.

I am intensely annoyed by having to dump partial mags and count rounds to reload them in the middle of match for old production division or IDPA, as opposed to just topping each of them off. I never fully trust the witness holes for accomplishing the top off accurately, especially since I cannot see small stuff like that anymore.


Where did you find 15 round G17 mags?

[Noah]

Where did you find 15 round G17 mags?

https://gunmagwarehouse.com/glock-gen-4-glock-17-9mm-15-round-blocked-factory-magazine.html

[fatdog]

Where did you find 15 round G17 mags?

Botach (https://botach.com/glock-oem-magazines/), now out of stock

[ECK]

I was torn between Prod-15 and going with mag capacity that fit the box. IMO there were pros and cons for both.

Prod 15 Pros:
*It would make Prod unique in that no other division had 15 rnds, so stage strategy would be fairly unique from SS, L10, or the high-cap divisions
*Newbies who brought a box stock Glock 19/17 would have a place to land without shooting in Limited minor. 3 mags, each loaded to 15 or 17 and rock on.

Prod 15 Cons:
*Only one I came up with was ROs now need to count to 15 instead of 10. Sadly, not enough ROs are even counting to 10 when a Prod shooter would show up, so doubt they’ll be doing their diligence with Prod-15. This was the reason I was leaning towards “fill up the capacity to mag length provided the gun and mag fit in the box” to make it easier on the ROs.

Mag capacity Pros:
*Easy for Chrono to enforce. Gun w/ mag inserted fits in the box or it doesn’t.
*A G19 should be able to run a G17 mag to keep up with the other 17 rnders, and may even be able to put on a short basepad, plus slimmer springs to be able to increase capacity beyond the OFM 15 rnds. So in a sense we would have away for competitors to level the playing field capacity-wise.
*If we go with a max length mag (as defined by the dimensions of the Prod/SS box) then RO’s don’t need to count rounds. Let guys and cottage-industry experiment with different springs and followers like we already have in CO, Ltd, LO, Open, etc. to cram an extra round or two into the mag. It may start an arms-race, but it’s not like one doesn’t already exist (Mag-guts, Grams followers, et.al.). And besides, arms races generally promote innovation in which case we all benefit.

Mag capacity Cons:
*Arms races usually mean there is an equipment advantage which becomes a barrier to entry for the newbies and the need to keep up with the Joneses. But fortunately the barrier to entry is just in the mags and mag accessories, not needing to throw down thousands of dollars in a high-end gun to compete.
*But now we’re conceivably in the 19-20 rnd mag capacity territory, and we’re starting to resemble a hi-cap division rather than a unique mid-cap division -which is the main thing I liked about Prod-15.

Last thot: Some people say Prod 15 w/ 15+1 will result in stage plans of shoot 8, move, shoot 8, go to slide lock. True, if your stage designers are of the ilk that design stages with 8/8/8/8 which IMO is lazy and boring as hell. Most of the stages I shoot at my clubs don’t do that, and 15 will give Prod shooters a lot more options than 10+1.

[Bucky]

This may have me shooting Production next year. I even have the components from 15 round CZ magazines, that I bought off an NJ resident when their 2nd amendment infringement went from 15 to 10. Sure, I could just use 17s loaded to 15, but if the mag will only hold 15, you can challenge any allegations you loaded more than 15.

Years back, I would shoot every division throughout the year. 3 years ago, I decided to focus on one gun / division for the entire year, beginning with open, carry optics, and this year limited. My plan this year was going to be limited optics. However, I’ve dragged my feet so long on getting a proper LO gun, I might not be ready in time.

The reason that this change appeals to me is, local matches have lost any semblance of 8 or even 10 round neutrality. Shooting 10 in my area forces too many flat footed reloads during a target array. 12 and 14 round positions are common. The 15 round limit would make these stages more enjoyable.

[fatdog]

Where did you find 15 round G17 mags?

I noticed Gunmagwarehouse is now also out.

With the caveat that I don't have a bunch of orders with these guys, maybe one in the past, they seem to have the correct SKU in stock (https://shop.chartertactical.com/products/magazines-glock-glkmf17015b-764503914225-6402)

Don't know these guys but they claim to have them (https://www.darmsco.com/products/magazines-glock-mf17015b-764503914225-6263).

The best search is probably the Glock SKU for these factory blocked 15 rounders for the 17/45/34/47 guns, it is MF17015B

[CraigS]

For that reason alone, I just ordered some of the factory 15 round Glock 17/34 mags and factory 15 Beretta PX4 full size mags.

I am intensely annoyed by having to dump partial mags and count rounds to reload them in the middle of match for old production division or IDPA, as opposed to just topping each of them off. I never fully trust the witness holes for accomplishing the top off accurately, especially since I cannot see small stuff like that anymore.
I can't help w/ vision but can note that MecGar 18 rnd mags for a Beretta 92 have a witness hole for every round. So that is all we use. Check if this is true for your guns.

[jellydonut]

I suppose for Americans this change is mostly redundant since everyone just wants to shoot Carry Optics instead, but it is long overdue. Welcome to "real" Production!

Loading 15 in 17rd Glock mags is completely untroublesome. You don't "trust the witness holes", but rather you count out 15 a few times and learn what it looks like (the bottom round is barely visible in the 16 round witness hole), and then you just load to that from then on.

Using limited capacity mags is not the play here. The reduced follower spring tension from having 17 rd mags (better yet, 17 rd mags with extended baseplates) loaded with 15 is helpful.

[feudist]

I suppose for Americans this change is mostly redundant since everyone just wants to shoot Carry Optics instead, but it is long overdue. Welcome to "real" Production!

Loading 15 in 17rd Glock mags is completely untroublesome. You don't "trust the witness holes", but rather you count out 15 a few times and learn what it looks like (the bottom round is barely visible in the 16 round witness hole), and then you just load to that from then on.

Using limited capacity mags is not the play here. The reduced follower spring tension from having 17 rd mags (better yet, 17 rd mags with extended baseplates) loaded with 15 is helpful.

I just take one shoe off.

[steve]

I really am looking forward to this. I have been shooting limited with irons and will now switch. I just wish it was a little higher in the mag capacity area.

[Slalom.45]

I'm in the same boat. First 5 years in Production. About 5 months in CO which didn't really thrill me, then shooting Limited for the past year and a half just to have someone to shoot irons with. If Prod makes any sort of a comeback I'm on the wagon...

[Clusterfrack]

Production was my main focus until everyone moved to CO. I like 10 rounds because it makes Production even more challenging. But, I’ll shoot Production 15 if some heat returns to it locally.

About filling partial mags and counting bullets: just load to full capacity and take out the right number. Eg. 17 take out 2.