Occluded shooting with Opticgard

[Serpico1985]

My department recently switched to Gen 5 17's. Only the cool kids got MOS glocks with RMRs, the lowly patrol officers and detectives were stuck with iron sights.

I decided to finally get into red dot training/shooting and wanted as much benefit transfer to my duty gun. So I bought a spare gen 5 17 and sent it to Agency Arms for their optic cut system and paired it up with a 6moa EPS.

Reading up on how to transition, I knew I wanted to lean heavily on occluded shooting to get started and train myself to keep both eyes open, something I have never done when shooting irons.

This lead me to Optic Gard for a EPS cover. It's a very simply two piece design, one part to cover the front glass and a rubber shell that slides over and lightly snaps onto the bottom of the optic.

With my iron sights in front I had to trim the Optic Gard to get it to fit and I thought this would mean that it would have issues staying on.

I'm pleased to say after at least 10 range sessions around 1k it has given me zero problems.

If you want to get into occluded shooting I think this is better than tape.

Just my $0.02.

Let me know if you have any questions.

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[Erick Gelhaus]

What about it is an improvement over tape? Genuinely curious.

[JohnO]

There is rational for keeping your sight occluded at all times, even on duty! That way it will never washout in bright sunlight.


https://youtu.be/pzaInGqOGnk?si=MT1mX6WLSJ184XBY

[Utm]

There is rational for keeping your sight occluded at all times, even on duty! That way it will never washout in bright sunlight.


https://youtu.be/pzaInGqOGnk?si=MT1mX6WLSJ184XBY
I would not. There are probably some weird angles you could shoot from that an occluded dot would be much more difficult to use. Imo it should only be a training tool, not something I'm using in life or death scenarios.

[Utm]

What about it is an improvement over tape? Genuinely curious.

I have it, and have also used tape. Not really much of a difference imo

[Serpico1985]

What about it is an improvement over tape? Genuinely curious.

The ease of switching back-and-forth between occluded and non-occluded. I realize tape blocks the dot equally well.

I have other optics that don’t have this option so they have tape on them. I’m talking about ARs. If I need to re-zero, I’ll take the tape off and put it back on. It’s just leaves behind a lot of residue on the optic.

[Eric_L]

The ease of switching back-and-forth between occluded and non-occluded. I realize tape blocks the dot equally well.

I have other optics that don’t have this option so they have tape on them. I’m talking about ARs. If I need to re-zero, I’ll take the tape off and put it back on. It’s just leaves behind a lot of residue on the optic.

Use painters tape, the blue or green color. No residue. Or MINIMAL residue.

[Molon]

There is rational for keeping your sight occluded at all times, even on duty!


If you enjoy missing your target when shooting beyond CQB distances, then occluded-eye sighting is great.



The Effects of Phoria When Using the ACOG as an Occluded-Eye Gunsight


https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/trijicon_ta11_002-1898830.jpg



Phoria: the visual effect that occurs when one eye is blocked from seeing the same view of a target as the other eye; the blocked eye does not get the same sensory input as the other eye and can begin to wonder off, usually to one side or the other.

In an attempt to make my Trijicon TA-11 ACOG more versatile at engaging close range targets, I installed a Progressive Machine and Tool flip-down front lens cover. With the lens cover in the up position (blocking the view through the scope) the ACOG can function as a non-magnified occluded-eye gunsight; functioning more like a non-magnified red-dot sight, than a magnified scope. However, when the ACOG is functioning as an occluded-eye gunsight, the view of the target for the eye looking into the scope is blocked and the effect of phoria comes into play.



https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/acog_04_cover_down-1898828.jpg



https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/acog_03_cover_closed-1898827.jpg



In order to determine just what the effects of phoria would be when using the ACOG TA-11 as an occluded-eye gunsight, I conducted a test comparing the accuracy and points of impact when shooting with the lens cover down (normal sighting) and the lens cover up (occluded-eye sighting.) Testing was conducted at a distance of 25 yards, the farthest distance that I would anticipate using the occluded eye-method of sighting.

Shooting off of sand bags, I zeroed the TA-11 for point of aim equals point of impact at 25 yards using the normal sighting method. I then fired a 10-shot group with the normal sighting method that formed a tidy group with an extreme spread of 0.56”.



https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/acog_with_standard_sighting_labeled_01-1898829.jpg



Next, I placed the lens cover in the up position, transforming the ACOG into an occluded-eye gunsight. The left eye views the target, while the right eye views the reticle in the scope. The right eye is blocked (occluded) from seeing the target due to the lens cover. The impact of the initial shots using this method had such a large horizontal deviation to the left that they were off the targets that I originally was using. I had to change to a 24” wide target and aim at the far right side of the target to capture the impact of the rounds. The aiming point for this portion of the test was the numeral “7” on the target.

Using the occluded-eye method of sighting, I fired a 10-shot group. This group had an extreme spread of over 7” and the center of the group was 14” to the left of the aiming point!


https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/acig_with_occluded_eye_sighting_measured-1898826.jpg



….

[Tokarev]

If you enjoy missing your target when shooting beyond CQB distances, then occluded-eye sighting is great.



The Effects of Phoria When Using the ACOG as an Occluded-Eye Gunsight


https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/trijicon_ta11_002-1898830.jpg



Phoria: the visual effect that occurs when one eye is blocked from seeing the same view of a target as the other eye; the blocked eye does not get the same sensory input as the other eye and can begin to wonder off, usually to one side or the other.

In an attempt to make my Trijicon TA-11 ACOG more versatile at engaging close range targets, I installed a Progressive Machine and Tool flip-down front lens cover. With the lens cover in the up position (blocking the view through the scope) the ACOG can function as a non-magnified occluded-eye gunsight; functioning more like a non-magnified red-dot sight, than a magnified scope. However, when the ACOG is functioning as an occluded-eye gunsight, the view of the target for the eye looking into the scope is blocked and the effect of phoria comes into play.



https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/acog_04_cover_down-1898828.jpg



https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/acog_03_cover_closed-1898827.jpg



In order to determine just what the effects of phoria would be when using the ACOG TA-11 as an occluded-eye gunsight, I conducted a test comparing the accuracy and points of impact when shooting with the lens cover down (normal sighting) and the lens cover up (occluded-eye sighting.) Testing was conducted at a distance of 25 yards, the farthest distance that I would anticipate using the occluded eye-method of sighting.

Shooting off of sand bags, I zeroed the TA-11 for point of aim equals point of impact at 25 yards using the normal sighting method. I then fired a 10-shot group with the normal sighting method that formed a tidy group with an extreme spread of 0.56”.



https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/acog_with_standard_sighting_labeled_01-1898829.jpg



Next, I placed the lens cover in the up position, transforming the ACOG into an occluded-eye gunsight. The left eye views the target, while the right eye views the reticle in the scope. The right eye is blocked (occluded) from seeing the target due to the lens cover. The impact of the initial shots using this method had such a large horizontal deviation to the left that they were off the targets that I originally was using. I had to change to a 24” wide target and aim at the far right side of the target to capture the impact of the rounds. The aiming point for this portion of the test was the numeral “7” on the target.

Using the occluded-eye method of sighting, I fired a 10-shot group. This group had an extreme spread of over 7” and the center of the group was 14” to the left of the aiming point!


https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/acig_with_occluded_eye_sighting_measured-1898826.jpg



….Do you have eye convergence issues? Maybe try some Brock string exercises and see if those help.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

[GJM]

I believe occluding the red dot has morphed from something good, which is to help you learn to target focus, into something dumb. Occluded is not how your eyes and the optic, not to mention the BUIS, were designed to work. Of course we could probably end up with cheaper optics if we didn't have to worry about the display quality and performance in adverse sun angles.

I wonder if LE departments have figured out that an occluded optic can be a major liability in a shooting gone bad and written policies prohibiting their use. I am sure the jury will be impressed by that optic with tape over the front of the lens.

[Molon]

Do you have eye convergence issues? Maybe try some Brock string exercises and see if those help.

No Sparky, I don't have eye convergence issues.

...

[Tokarev]

No Sparky, I don't have eye convergence issues.

...


I'm just asking you a question. Don't take it (or yourself) so seriously, Sparky.


Happy New Year!

[theJanitor]

so I'm blind in my left eye, and some people tell me that I can shoot with an occluded dot, but every time I try, I can't see "around" the optic. what am I missing?:confused:

[Caballoflaco]

so I'm blind in my left eye, and some people tell me that I can shoot with an occluded dot, but every time I try, I can't see "around" the optic. what am I missing?:confused:

Nothing, it only works if you have perfect binocular vision.

Like lots of other people I can’t shoot occluded either and it doesn’t impact my ability to shoot a dot sight with target focus at all.

There’s a good reason that Armeson occluded gunsights aren’t in production anymore.

[Molon]

so I'm blind in my left eye,
Which means you still have vision in your right eye, so why even bother with something as retarded as occluded-eye sighting?




and some people tell me that I can shoot with an occluded dot,
In the future you should probably ignore anything that those people tell you about sighting.




I can't see "around" the optic. what am I missing?:confused:
With occluded-eye sighting, the non-dominant eye views the major portion of the target. The brain super-imposes the image of the red dot of the occluded sight that the dominant eye is seeing, on to the image of the target that the non-dominate eye is seeing, while the occlusion to the red dot sight blocks any view of the target that would ordinarily be visible through the optic.

Extend your right hand out in front of you with your thumb pointing upwards. Use your thumb as a front sight post and align it on an object in the distance that is just barely larger than your thumb. Now, move your thumb straight back towards your face until your hand is almost touching your face. Can you still see the major portion of the target? Of course not and that is why you can't see the major portion of the target when trying to use occluded-eye sighting due to being blind in your left eye.

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[Norville]

Due to work and a new car, my level of participation in USPSA was way down last year. I ran occluded in the 8-10 matches I shot, and did reasonably close to my classification (low A) in most of them. It makes target focus easy when you haven’t been training enough. It’s not the answer to all things, but there are a surprising number of high level shooters doing it in matches.

[theJanitor]

Which means you still have vision in your right eye, so why even bother with something as retarded as occluded-eye sighting?


I think I saw Mike Pannone saying he can do it with even with his f'd up eye. Mostly, the occluded dot work they're doing is just brain/vision training, not for continuous or regular use. So I see some value in that concept

Also, there's the off chance that that my handgun optic gets clogged in the front, but I can still see a dot from the rear. and of course I can't see irons, or through the optic. Aall my rifles have vis laser capability, so I have a way to look around the optic.

edit: I've been blind in that eye since 1982. and I did lose vision in my other eye in 2016 after a detached retina. I've "witnessed" my brain do some wild things to let me see, so I'm always interested in learning about "seeing"

[MD7305]

Molon, I found your post on Phoria very interesting. I've notice while shooting occluded, my groups move consistently left as I move further in distance (25yds+). If I remove the tape on my optic, my group centers which left me questioning why that was happening. I just thought I was loosing focus on the target and becoming too dot focused.

[Molon]

Also, there's the off chance that that my handgun optic gets clogged in the front, but I can still see a dot from the rear. and of course I can't see irons, or through the optic.
Nobody is saying don't use occluded-eye sighting if some freak occurrence happens that blocks the view through the sight, but magically doesn't interfere with the operation of the dot. But "keeping your sight occluded at all times, even on duty" is ridiculous.

....

[Olim9]

I believe occluding the red dot has morphed from something good, which is to help you learn to target focus, into something dumb. Occluded is not how your eyes and the optic, not to mention the BUIS, were designed to work. Of course we could probably end up with cheaper optics if we didn't have to worry about the display quality and performance in adverse sun angles.

I wonder if LE departments have figured out that an occluded optic can be a major liability in a shooting gone bad and written policies prohibiting their use. I am sure the jury will be impressed by that optic with tape over the front of the lens.

This might sound extreme but if one struggles so much with dots that they need to occlude their duty optic, I think they should stick with irons. I think people make red dot shooting way more complicated than it is sometimes.

[theJanitor]

Nobody is saying don't use occluded-eye sighting if some freak occurrence happens that blocks the view through the sight, but magically doesn't interfere with the operation of the dot. But "keeping your sight occluded at all times, even on duty" is ridiculous.

....

I'm only in it for the vision/brain training, not for regular use. The "what if" scenarios are still possible, but that's not my priority

[Molon]

I think people make red dot shooting way more complicated than it is sometimes.

This.
...

[Molon]

I'm only in it for the vision/brain training, not for regular use. The "what if" scenarios are still possible, but that's not my priority

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/thumbs-up_1f44d-2728811.png

....

[Serpico1985]

For what it’s worth I’m not advocating carrying a duty weapon occluded. I don’t have anywhere near enough experience with a dot to weigh in on that. This is purely a training gun for me, not a duty gun.

So far I have it has been very helpful for me in forcing me to keep both eyes open and target focused and nothing else. I train with it occluded most of the time and I’ll sometimes take off the optic guard and run practice quals non-occluded. I’ve noticed getting “sucked into the dot” when shooting non occluded. My groups open up and I get fixated on watching the dot.

Are y’all suggesting I stop practicing occluded?

[GJM]

For what it’s worth I’m not advocating carrying a duty weapon occluded. I don’t have anywhere near enough experience with a dot to weigh in on that. This is purely a training gun for me, not a duty gun.

So far I have it has been very helpful for me in forcing me to keep both eyes open and target focused and nothing else. I train with it occluded most of the time and I’ll sometimes take off the optic guard and run practice quals non-occluded. I’ve noticed getting “sucked into the dot” when shooting non occluded. My groups open up and I get fixated on watching the dot.

Are y’all suggesting I stop practicing occluded?

Not sure if you were kidding or asking, but if you have problems target focusing when not occluded, practicing more occluded might not make sense. I slap some tape on the front lens of my optic periodically dry firing, but don't shoot live rounds occluded.

[Clusterfrack]

Molon, I found your post on Phoria very interesting. I've notice while shooting occluded, my groups move consistently left as I move further in distance (25yds+). If I remove the tape on my optic, my group centers which left me questioning why that was happening. I just thought I was loosing focus on the target and becoming too dot focused.

Vision is complicated, and each person is unique. For example, some people (including me) are nearsighted in one eye and farsighted in the other. I'm right eye dominant, so if I shoot with a PVS-14 night vision tube on my left eye and look through my carbine optic with my right, my lazy right eye won't converge on the target, causing POI to be well off the target. Sound similar to the problems you described?

[MD7305]

Vision is complicated, and each person is unique. For example, some people (including me) are nearsighted in one eye and farsighted in the other. I'm right eye dominant, so if I shoot with a PVS-14 night vision tube on my left eye and look through my carbine optic with my right, my lazy right eye won't converge on the target, causing POI to be well off the target. Sound similar to the problems you described?

It does sound similar. This year my corrective lenses changed from being the same for both eyes. My right, dominant eye, is now slightly stronger. With my new prescription I've noticed my eyes seem to focus at distance differently. That's with contacts, oddly enough I notice it less with glasses but I rarely wear glasses. I've also fully commited to optics due to my department finally adopting it. So I may be noticing it more due to the frequency I've been using optics lately along with the change in prescription my eyes together are adjusting to.

In reference to occluded shooting, I only use it during some of my dryfire and occasionally live fire to reinforce I'm shooting target focused. I'm probably over thinking it but I feel like at 25 yards and further I'm focusing too much on the dot so I've been occluding my optic to help with that. I may be barking up the wrong tree!

[rdtompki]

I've mentioned elsewhere that I don't have binocular, no occluded dot shooting for me. A recent interesting observation:

Wife and I shoot steel challenge with eight predefined 5-target stages that can be shot in any order provided the "stop plate" is hit last. Higher speed stages I definitely shoot faster left to right, even symmetrical stages. Being right eye dominant shooting right to left my brain will try to switch to my left eye, favored with its unobstructed view of the target, but useless as the gun and dot come up to the target.

The real world and action pistol sports don't provide this much control over target engagement sequence, but there may be a lesson in terms of closing/squinting the non-dominant eye.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Nobody is saying don't use occluded-eye sighting if some freak occurrence happens that blocks the view through the sight, but magically doesn't interfere with the operation of the dot. But "keeping your sight occluded at all times, even on duty" is ridiculous.

....

Yes! and thank you.

[Caballoflaco]

Speaking of “freak occurances” with optical sights and occlusions. I took this screen shot from a video of Ukrainians raiding a trench this December. While his optic isn’t completely covered it’s easy to see how it could be. (everybody over there still runs optics if they can get them)

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[theJanitor]

Speaking of “freak occurances” with optical sights and occlusions. I took this screen shot from a video of Ukrainians raiding a trench this December. While his optic isn’t completely covered it’s easy to see how it could be.[/ATTACH]

And I've heard people say that they won't use an ARD for their optic. If they take a hard spill in the mud, and the ARD gets filled with it, it's not getting cleared easily, even with a squirt of a water bottle