class or lack there of

[rockymtnnut]

Todd I can't explain how much I appreciate your professionalism I don't really know were to post this I was going to set up training for me and a few of my friends for a road trip . The instructor/ owner proceeds to drop the F bomb and insult everyone around .I don't need to give his name but lack of professionalisim and insults were enough for me. I look forward to taking your class sometime in the near future thanks Todd G.

[ToddG]

You only say that because you've never been to one of my classes. :cool:

[MDS]

Personally, I enjoy a good-natured back and forth insult war. Depending on the class, Randy Cain's classes can get pretty, ah, colorful, and over the last three days I've been described in ways that would make a dockside hooker blush. I gave as good as I got, ran that bolt gun for everything I was worth, learned a metric shit-ton (oops!) and had a great time. I don't think that colorful language necessarily reduces professionalism - that's more a matter of safety, clarity, and effective communication... which Randy does very well, with colorful words or otherwise.

No offense or anything, just my $.02...

[SouthNarc]

This wasn't me was it?

[Chuck Haggard]

While I get the point, some guys, like Pat Rogers, just wouldn't be the same without the seven words you can't say on TV.

[JodyH]

Depending on the class, profanity can be a useful psychological component of the training.

If your NRA basic pistol instructor is dropping F-bombs left and right, that's unprofessional.
If your defensive tactics instructor isn't inserting realistic vernacular at appropriate times then he's not being professional.

That being said.
It's never appropriate to address a student with profanity in a personally insulting or demeaning manner.
There's a difference between addressing the class with "You MF'ers need to straighten your Sh' out, 'cause Charlie don't surf!" and addressing a single student with "You dumb MF'er, get your Sh' straight because you're a F'up." (unless you and the instructor both know it's good natured ribbing).

I have a potty mouth honed by years of working in the oilfield, but even I'm smart enough not to say F in church.

[Kyle Reese]

I've trained with several prominent and well known instructors that have used profanity throughout the course of training. I've also trained with a prominent and well known instructor who has a "nickname" for many students, and "ribs" them.

It's not a big deal, really.

I care about course content, and if the lessons / drills are going to be beneficial.

There are some truly outstanding instructors who, at times, choose to use profanity. That's cool.

There are some mediocre and or poor instructors who use profanity in lieu of technical and tactical competence/proficiency. Not cool, and they'll never see my training dollars.

What JodyH said is spot on.

At the end of the day, training with firearms is a deadly serious endeavor and people need to check their tender little feelings at the Holiday Inn Express.

[NickA]

One of the first things said by a certain ex-Marine in a recent pistol class: "Is anyone offended by the word f@#$? It's pretty much the Marine version of 'um' so I say it alot." ;)
Thought it was polite of him to ask, and he was a complete professional, but I can see where it would be out of place in certain groups. In fact I think every class I've had the instructor did something similar.

[Sparks2112]

This wasn't me was it?

Tactical fagotry is one of the best things heard at any class I've ever been to. Just FYI.

[RoyGBiv]

While I get the point, some guys, like Pat Rogers, just wouldn't be the same without the seven words you can't say on TV.
"Sentence Enhancers"

Spongebob and Patrick aren't afraid of the FCC.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6HWHHTNTcU

[JFK]

This wasn't me was it?

F- your waffles!

[JodyH]

F- your waffles!
A co-worker invited me to breakfast Tuesday.
Guess what he heard?

[DocGKR]

Interestingly, Bob Vogel did not use any profanity or demeaning comments during the recent course he presented here...

[Zhurdan]

I think it is like anything else. If you walk into an R rated movie and are squeamish because of the language and violence... well, the writing was on the wall.

If you don't put an ounce of research into the class you are going to, then that's your fault.

[JodyH]

Interestingly, Bob Vogel did not use any profanity or demeaning comments during the recent course he presented here...
I wouldn't expect him to.
Vogel is a shooting skills instructor.

I would expect to hear profanity from someone like Southnarc when discussing the criminal assault paradigm and managing contact with the criminal element.
If you're shocked at a F-bomb dropped in class, how do you think you'll react to a string of creative expletives emanating from the mouth of a hoodlum on the street?
I've seen "tough" women who said they were ready to fight, shocked into a open mouthed stupor by calling them the C word.

[orionz06]

I couldn't care less about what or how someone acts as long as they are being themselves. Nothing worse than a desk jockey trying to pretend to be a Delta Seal and nothing worse than a Delta Seal pretending they know things they don't. If you swear like a sailor just do it. If you string $5 college words together just do it. When someone fakes if you can tell.

[JHC]

While I get the point, some guys, like Pat Rogers, just wouldn't be the same without the seven words you can't say on TV.

This. Hackathorn uses F-bombs as an elegant brush with which he paints a mosaic of tactical life and death. He IS an artist with it. :D

[bbqbologna]

Took pistol 1 & 2 with LAV a couple years ago in Birmingham, AL. Great classes, and served as my introduction to "real" firearms learnin'. He's a gregarious dude, and can be a little spicy with his comments. A couple of students in the first class didn't appreciate the spiciness ...

[Mjolnir]

While I get the point, some guys, like Pat Rogers, just wouldn't be the same without the seven words you can't say on TV.

LOL! He's a very colorful individual as well as Hackathorn. LAV is a riot, too.

I like both approaches.

[Mjolnir]

This. Hackathorn uses F-bombs as an elegant brush with which he paints a mosaic of tactical life and death. He IS an artist with it. :D

I'm typing on a phone and didn't wish to write an essay.

Thank you for stating what I had no patience to.

[Mjolnir]

I wouldn't expect him to.
Vogel is a shooting skills instructor.

I would expect to hear profanity from someone like Southnarc when discussing the criminal assault paradigm and managing contact with the criminal element.
If you're shocked at a F-bomb dropped in class, how do you think you'll react to a string of creative expletives emanating from the mouth of a hoodlum on the street?
I've seen "tough" women who said they were ready to fight, shocked into a open mouthed stupor by calling them the C word.

Case of your choice!

[Ray Keith]

LOL! He's a very colorful individual as well as Hackathorn. LAV is a riot, too.

I like both approaches.

This reminds me of Ralphie, from a Christmas Story...

Ralphie as Adult: [narrating] Now, I had heard that word at least ten times a day from my old man. He worked in profanity the way other artists might work in oils or clay. It was his true medium; a master.

[Le Français]

This. Hackathorn uses F-bombs as an elegant brush with which he paints a mosaic of tactical life and death. He IS an artist with it. :D

Painting a mosaic?

...but I see what you mean. ;)

[NickA]

This reminds me of Ralphie, from a Christmas Story...

Ralphie as Adult: [narrating] Now, I had heard that word at least ten times a day from my old man. He worked in profanity the way other artists might work in oils or clay. It was his true medium; a master.

Or to paraphrase from Man on Fire:
"A man can be an artist... in anything, food, whatever. It depends on how good he is at it. Hackathorn's art is profanity. He's about to paint his masterpiece. " :p

[dookie1481]

I don't mind either type of instructor. I'm adaptable :cool:

[zacbol]

I swear. A lot. In fact, probably more than anyone I've ever met. I've had several people stop me mid-sentence and compliment me on how many f-bombs I've managed to fit in a single sentence.

Yet somehow I have this irrational gut feeling that I'm in a more 'professional' environment when the instructor doesn't resort to profanity. Doesn't really make much sense, but it is what it is. That said, SouthNarc and Greg Hamilton both are reasonably colorful and two of the best instructors I've ever had the pleasure to train with. So, in the grand scheme it's not really that important relative to a lot of other factors.

[JM Campbell]

Words don't eliminate threats.....bullets do.

I'm in it to win, whoever can instruct me to get to the skill level I'm seeking (colorfull or not) gets my money.

I care not about a potty mouth, I care about the ability to teach a potentially life saving skill.

[UNK]

Personally, I enjoy a good-natured back and forth insult war. Depending on the class, Randy Cain's classes can get pretty, ah, colorful, and over the last three days I've been described in ways that would make a dockside hooker blush. I gave as good as I got, ran that bolt gun for everything I was worth, learned a metric shit-ton (oops!) and had a great time. I don't think that colorful language necessarily reduces professionalism - that's more a matter of safety, clarity, and effective communication... which Randy does very well, with colorful words or otherwise.

No offense or anything, just my $.02...

Thats what I am looking for.... a class with dockside hookers.

[LHS]

This. Hackathorn uses F-bombs as an elegant brush with which he paints a mosaic of tactical life and death. He IS an artist with it. :D

This.

I don't mind profanity as long as it's done properly. There is a time and a place where it's acceptable, and even desirable. The trick is knowing when and where. Ken's one of the masters of this, as well as the master of deploying it in new and hilarious ways.

[Odin Bravo One]

As a trainer, you need to know your audience. There is a time and a place to accentuate a point with an F-Bomb. And there are times and places where any profanity causes deaf ears for anything else that comes out. Growing up in a profanity laced training environment, I simply thought that was how it was done. I am far from offended by any instructors language, but have seen other students cringe at times when profanities are strung together like a sailor.

[jar]

Know your audience, and it depends if the profanity is directed at students or not. As Southnarc says in class, there's a difference between "back the fuck up" and "back up motherfucker".

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk 2

[BN]

Did you ever notice - - - - Some people know how to swear and some don't. ;)

Maybe it's a gift they are born with. :)

[Zhurdan]

Did you ever notice - - - - Some people know how to swear and some don't. ;)

Maybe it's a gift they are born with. :)
Absolutely disagree, but not angrily. Work at a bar sometime. You will see the most mild mannered, 105lb blonde female go from "How can I help you babe?" to "Shut your dirty Who#e mouth and get the F$#k out of MY BAR!!" in a blink of an eye. I work at a friends bar part time and I seriously can't tell you how these 105lb girls will totally verbally manhandle a dude in less than two seconds and shut them down. It's pretty impressive. I've not once in three years had to physically remove a patron. There is an art to it and it ain't just vocal. Body language, even from a 105lb girl sends a message. It sends a Mother Trucking MESSAGE!!! It really is impressive to watch one of these gals bust up a scuffle. They never get in harms way, they just do some verbal jiujitsu and some aggressive body work and stuff shuts down.

[Haraise]

There is absolutely a professionalism in swearing when the training is helped by it.

I personally wouldn't want to go to any training that's... aggressive towards students, but a lot of people flourish in it.

[Kyle Reese]

I personally wouldn't want to go to any training that's... aggressive towards students, but a lot of people flourish in it.

Sometimes you have to be pushed outside of your comfort zone to advance as a student.

[zacbol]

Sometimes you have to be pushed outside of your comfort zone to advance as a student.
Generally, I don't find screaming or insults to enhance teaching, though I've experienced that approach as I'm sure many here have. If the express purpose is to induce stress, I can agree there there is a (limited) application. But there are lots of other ways to induce stress that don't require that as well.

Interestingly, I was actually thinking about this topic a bit more and the instructors who've been *more* colorful have actually tended to seem more approachable and friendly. Maybe it's because they seem to just be being themselves. I've had other instructors who never used profanity and in some ways they actually seemed colder and more distant. I don't think it affected my learning one way or another but I tended to enjoy myself more with those that swore while feeling myself to be in a more 'formal' environment with those who didn't.

[Haraise]

Sometimes you have to be pushed outside of your comfort zone to advance as a student.

That's fine, but people who do it through aggression aren't getting my time or money.

[JodyH]

You'd have to define "aggression".
One persons daily interaction is another persons hostile workplace.
I've worked the west Texas oilfields for 20 years, I will probably have a completely different take on what is "aggressive" behavior than an accountant who's spent his time in a corporate office environment.
Profanity and bluster aren't going to knock me off my game at all.
I do have my achilles, but you won't find it with "aggression".
That's why the really good instructors have multiple approaches to how they take students outside their comfort zones.
The majority of people today work in PC environments and profanity can be a great way of throwing them for a loop.

[JodyH]

Generally, I don't find screaming or insults to enhance teaching,
I would laugh at someone who tried the drill sergeant approach to civilian training.

As I posted in my first reply, insults directed at students are inappropriate.
Good natured back and forth between a instructor and student can create a bonding situation that improves the learning environment, but the instructor has to be able to read people to understand when it's working and when it's alienating.

"Screaming" has very limited applications outside of a carefully planned stress inducing drill.

[TGS]

Generally, I don't find screaming or insults to enhance teaching, though I've experienced that approach as I'm sure many here have. If the express purpose is to induce stress, I can agree there there is a (limited) application. But there are lots of other ways to induce stress that don't require that as well.

Interestingly, I was actually thinking about this topic a bit more and the instructors who've been *more* colorful have actually tended to seem more approachable and friendly. Maybe it's because they seem to just be being themselves. I've had other instructors who never used profanity and in some ways they actually seemed colder and more distant. I don't think it affected my learning one way or another but I tended to enjoy myself more with those that swore while feeling myself to be in a more 'formal' environment with those who didn't.

I've found that most instructors who try to induce stress by yelling at people are just d-bags.

When I first commissioned in the USMC, my dive buddy's brother was a Major. I joined his family for dinner one night at a Thai restaurant in NoVA. The first thing he asked after introductions was, "So tell me, are the captains at TBS still the biggest d-bags ever?" I, as a brand new loo-tenant, didn't really know how to respond with a major asking me that...so I sort of brushed it off with an awkward laugh. He went on, "Here was my experience: When I was a TBS student, I thought all the captains were being jerks to build us under pressure and make us better; that whole 'he who is trained in the severest school will triumph' thing. But, about 6 months after being in the fleet, I figured out that wasn't true. Nope. They were just dicks, and everyone else in the fleet hated them too."

To date, I've generally found that to be true. As you noted there are very limited applications, but they are there. Like JodyH said, putting someone outside their comfort zone can definitely benefit them. A lot of people think they are doing this, and know how to, but generally are terrible at it and just come off as not knowing what they're doing.

Of course, this is an entirely different topic than just using undirected profanity without a menacing intent.

[BN]

Absolutely disagree, but not angrily. Work at a bar sometime. You will see the most mild mannered, 105lb blonde female go from "How can I help you babe?" to "Shut your dirty Who#e mouth and get the F$#k out of MY BAR!!" in a blink of an eye. I work at a friends bar part time and I seriously can't tell you how these 105lb girls will totally verbally manhandle a dude in less than two seconds and shut them down. It's pretty impressive. I've not once in three years had to physically remove a patron. There is an art to it and it ain't just vocal. Body language, even from a 105lb girl sends a message. It sends a Mother Trucking MESSAGE!!! It really is impressive to watch one of these gals bust up a scuffle. They never get in harms way, they just do some verbal jiujitsu and some aggressive body work and stuff shuts down.

Actually, we completely agree. :) Some people swear naturally and it sounds like they do it effortlessly. Others swear like they are trying to be tough and don't do it well.

For example, I've been around Hackathorn for the last 30 years. I didn't realize he swore so much because he does it so smooth and when he swears it fits naturally into the conversation. :) I asked my wife if Ken swore and she said he drops the "F" bomb, but probably cleaned it up a little around her. :)

[Corvus]

Out of the classes I have taken I have found the instructors that did not depend on yelling and cussing had a lot better knowledge base of the subject , a better knowledge of how people learn and teaching methods and a more developed class plan.

If they depended cussing , yelling and "Sean Penn" impersonations , " I went to Iraq " , the class was usually a let down and not the best value for my training dollar.

I work in manufacturing and hear it everyday and it isn't a big deal but the better instructors do not depend on it.

[BLACK]

I wouldn't expect him to.
Vogel is a shooting skills instructor.

I would expect to hear profanity from someone like Southnarc when discussing the criminal assault paradigm and managing contact with the criminal element.
If you're shocked at a F-bomb dropped in class, how do you think you'll react to a string of creative expletives emanating from the mouth of a hoodlum on the street?
I've seen "tough" women who said they were ready to fight, shocked into a open mouthed stupor by calling them the C word.

Lots of good feedback Jody... I almost spit out my coffee a couple of times. :o

[BaiHu]

I teach martial arts from ages 4-64, from non-English speaking people to doctors, lawyers and teachers and I think the following quotes nailed it!


As a trainer, you need to know your audience. There is a time and a place to accentuate a point with an F-Bomb. And there are times and places where any profanity causes deaf ears for anything else that comes out. Growing up in a profanity laced training environment, I simply thought that was how it was done. I am far from offended by any instructors language, but have seen other students cringe at times when profanities are strung together like a sailor.

You will alienate more people than you will interest if you don't know your audience.



You'd have to define "aggression".
One persons daily interaction is another persons hostile workplace.
I've worked the west Texas oilfields for 20 years, I will probably have a completely different take on what is "aggressive" behavior than an accountant who's spent his time in a corporate office environment.
Profanity and bluster aren't going to knock me off my game at all.
I do have my achilles, but you won't find it with "aggression".
That's why the really good instructors have multiple approaches to how they take students outside their comfort zones.
The majority of people today work in PC environments and profanity can be a great way of throwing them for a loop.

Goes back to SeanM and my next statement...


I would laugh at someone who tried the drill sergeant approach to civilian training.

As I posted in my first reply, insults directed at students are inappropriate.
Good natured back and forth between a instructor and student can create a bonding situation that improves the learning environment, but the instructor has to be able to read people to understand when it's working and when it's alienating.

"Screaming" has very limited applications outside of a carefully planned stress inducing drill.

There are many ways to introduce stress: timer, go against someone, make them do something they normally wouldn't, sneak some snap caps in their mags, simply saying faster or give them something to imagine that stresses them.

Lastly, I forgot who, but someone posted about being genuine and I think that makes a hell of a difference too. When I took ECQC and AFHF this year, Craig and Todd were exactly the same on the range and off the range and that's a huge compliment, b/c I don't think a lot of people spend enough time learning about themselves through their craft.

IMO, if you haven't figured out who you are, then you will have a damn hard time trying to teach someone else how to be in a physical and mental space when their life or one of their loved ones lives depends on them.