JCN's bad ideas, part 324... IDPA BUG.... [Archive]

JCN

11-11-2023, 09:48 PM

So IDPA BUG division uses ESP rules...

And compensators are now allowed in ESP...

And you only need 95 power factor...

I'm thinking that I have a LOT of P365 parts lying around. And someone has fit a P365XL in the BUG box cutting off the beavertail and trimming the magazine floorplate.

My ultimate IDPA BUG might look like a P365 PMM compensated unit with bunny fart loads, and JCN Dremel slide lightening cuts.

XL frame and a small, trimmed magwell...

Should I.....

MVS

11-11-2023, 10:47 PM

Not sure how they are using an XL, the barrel is too long.

JCN

11-11-2023, 10:59 PM

Not sure how they are using an XL, the barrel is too long.

Hmm. You're right... 3.7" barrel and 3.5" is the limit.

I am not above trimming off the end of the barrel to make length....

JCN

11-11-2023, 11:07 PM

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JCN

11-11-2023, 11:23 PM

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PMM 365 will work with macro grip if I do some Dremel work.

I could hack my G26-320 grip to fit. Obviously with a different barrel, no comp and some iron sights instead.

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CraigS

11-12-2023, 09:43 AM

You know I love following your projects but hacking up a gun to fit in a box seems kind of crazy. Do they really allow you to take a gun that doesn't fit and hack it to fit? Somehow that seems a bit much. Kind of like if the rules were not written well enough to prohibit it bu, to me, it doesn't fit the overall idpa spirit of shooting guns you would normally carry. OTOH, if you go for it, I will be watching this thread.:)

Mirolynmonbro

11-12-2023, 10:05 AM

Hmm. You're right... 3.7" barrel and 3.5" is the limit.

I am not above trimming off the end of the barrel to make length....

IDPA would measure the length with a dowel down the barrel. I think sig measures their barrel and includes the feed ramp. The last time this question came up I'm pretty sure the barrel measures 3.5" and not 3.7"

JCN

11-12-2023, 11:16 AM

IDPA would measure the length with a dowel down the barrel. I think sig measures their barrel and includes the feed ramp. The last time this question came up I'm pretty sure the barrel measures 3.5" and not 3.7"

Oh! Thank you for that information! By that definition of barrel it is 3.5" so that saves me some effort!

The XL is nice because it's a single recoil spring so easier to tune.

You know I love following your projects but hacking up a gun to fit in a box seems kind of crazy. Do they really allow you to take a gun that doesn't fit and hack it to fit? Somehow that seems a bit much. Kind of like if the rules were not written well enough to prohibit it bu, to me, it doesn't fit the overall idpa spirit of shooting guns you would normally carry. OTOH, if you go for it, I will be watching this thread.:)

Gamers gonna game!

BUG uses ESP rules which is pretty much anything goes as long as it fits in the box.

If they ever made BUG-Optics, I would totally do that.

I think of it as a fun problem to solve... how to best make the equipment solve the problem at hand. It's not the same problem to solve as "real life..."

But then again, who of us plans on carrying 6 shot capacity and doing three-four reloads?

I try not to get too hung up in the "real life" part of the game as it's just a sport that may loosely have some general applicability to index and gun manipulation.

We all carry differently so there will have to be standardization for sport that doesn't match everyone's personal use case application.

Like we see from the home defense threads here regarding rifles. The optics, caliber and ammunition are heavily dependent on the individual's geography and perceived use patterns.

JCN

11-12-2023, 11:34 AM

Thanks to Mirolynmonbro this is the base I’m likely to start with.

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CraigS I don’t feel like it’s a super hard stretch to get there.

Just some cutting of the magwell and beavertail.

I don’t think I need to make the flashlight functional in ESP/BUG.

Which means I can take off the lens and load the battery compartment with something else to optimize weight.

I’ll probably try and trim bezel to retain function though.

11-12-2023, 11:56 AM

Gamers gonna game!

111399 ;) I enjoy your projects.

Mirolynmonbro

11-12-2023, 03:37 PM

The flashlight does need to meet the 60 lumen requirement in ESP rules

CraigS

11-12-2023, 04:00 PM

JCN

11-12-2023, 07:39 PM

The flashlight does need to meet the 60 lumen requirement in ESP rules

Thanks!

JCN

11-12-2023, 09:17 PM

I didn't realize that BUG followed ESP rules. I shoot in SSP and have looked once in a while quite longingly at ESP rules. Gamer's gona game! I love it so keep on showing us what you do to make it fit.

Going to use this donor once I find the rear sights.

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I have two subminor ammo choices lying around my garage. The Eley PCC and the Steve Foster Steel Challenge ammo.

Will have to see what kind of velocities and power factor they make out of this barrel.

Then alter porting to capitalize. For margin, will shoot for around 100 power factor.

Then once I pick a load and optimize barrel.

Order a Dawson fiber front that is appropriate height.

THEN start cutting grip module and flashlight.

Mirolynmonbro

11-13-2023, 11:02 AM

Do you have any major matches coming up that you are you planning to shoot?

JCN

11-13-2023, 08:52 PM

Do you have any major matches coming up that you are you planning to shoot?

Yes and no....

I do, but they're out of town matches to meet up with PF buddies and hang out. It's more of a social shoot than anything else for me.

I like IDPA for out of town fun events because stages are simpler and usually less technical... the order of COF is usually prescribed and so are foot positions with fault lines so it's just a shooting test rather than a field course problem solving / footwork / execution test.

USPSA takes a lot more studying and walking of stages. IDPA I can study match book, tweak it in the walk through and go (for the most part).

I'm pretty much committed to shooting my IDPA CO gun which is usable for PCSL and 2-gun as well. I'll run Open Minor for local USPSA stuff, but that's not my prime focus right now.

So why bother with these things?

1. I like optimizing equipment.
2. Local IDPA allows double entry.
3. My wife will probably start local IDPA next year and I usually clear the next closest pistol shooter locally by 30 seconds... so it might behoove me to decrease my overall score by adding more reloads to keep from demotivating her.
4. If they ever make BUG-Optic... I would seriously, seriously consider it. I feel like if IDPA are smart, they will consider it.

Mirolynmonbro

11-14-2023, 09:52 AM

Nice. I'll be at the CCP Championship in Valdosta next month, then Florida for the IDPA championship in February, then Alabama's IDPA Championship in June. Trying to add some more

Stephanie B

11-17-2023, 07:41 AM

You know I love following your projects but hacking up a gun to fit in a box seems kind of crazy.

Um, you do know this guy, don't you? "Crazy ideas" are where he lives. And sometimes, it really works.

CraigS

11-17-2023, 10:34 AM

Um, you do know this guy, don't you? "Crazy ideas" are where he lives. And sometimes, it really works.
Oh yes. That is why I said I will be following even if it seems a bit crazy. Whatever JCN is doing, I like to see the tech techniques and, sometimes the materials, he employs. Now that I understand that CO follows ESP rules, the 'crazy' no longer applies.

JCN

11-22-2023, 08:18 AM

benmac

I have been looking at P10S with their crazy closeout deals and see what I can do with it.

Apparently the nose is just 0.1 inches too long…. I think I can probably work around that.

It might be a good BUG gun in theory and an SCD would make it a good candidate for gun games.

JCN

11-26-2023, 11:52 AM

Ordered mags and a trigger for it.

Planning on doing some more aggressive stippling and making it barely meet the 95 power factor BUG rules.

JCN

11-30-2023, 08:32 PM

Finding that the P10 might have the same rear sight cut as an S2.

If that’s the case I have a bunch of adjustable rears lying around….

I’ll wait until I get the gun so I can mock up in a box to see how much tolerance I have for sight geometry.

I ordered metal IDPA boxes.

Could order custom front Dawson once I see where the slide and barrel hit with the ammo I’m planning on.

Mirolynmonbro

11-30-2023, 10:56 PM

Are you shooting BUG at Florida State? I don't remember if they allow it

JCN

12-01-2023, 07:36 AM

It’s mainly a local thing I think for me. When they allow double entries.

I’ll probably shoot it mainly in ESP to help me learn IDPA CO stage planning. But I like having things prepped for division just in case.

IDPA rules and stage execution with closed versus open and reloads behind cover, etc are still new to me and a significant stumbling block for my match performance. I got DQ once for a closed port muzzle exclusion zone that I thought was just a painted port window….

I don’t anticipate being competitive until I can stop racking up penalties (and having the mental slowdowns thing to avoid penalties). Adding more reloads of BUG… I’m just not ready for that.

JCN

12-02-2023, 10:13 PM

JCN

12-04-2023, 12:57 PM

I have a bunch of Kimber Micro 9 / 380 with appropriate holsters that might be fun to screw around with in BUG.

And I have a threaded barrel P938 that I could put a compensator on… and the legion version has a magwell….

Clusterfrack

12-04-2023, 01:12 PM

...threaded barrel P938 that I could put a compensator on… and the legion version has a magwell….

Need to see a pic of that gun. I sold all my 1911 variants a decade ago, but still have a soft spot for the Colt Mustang design.

JCN

12-04-2023, 01:49 PM

Need to see a pic of that gun. I sold all my 1911 variants a decade ago, but still have a soft spot for the Colt Mustang design.

I carried the Kimber Micro before the P365 came out but the extractor on the P938 is superior.

For the 938… I have a standard slide, an SAS slide and one of the unobtainable 22LR conversions!

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JCN

12-04-2023, 07:49 PM

Looking at what I have here. Some issues.

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Have to take off a little from nose and little from tail.

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There’s enough space on the lug to shave. Easily 3x the thickness of a Glock one.

But… the spring ledge is way out to the nose.

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So I’ll have to think about getting a sleeve or do something like a 1911 spring cap.

Actually, now that I think about it… I could slot from below and add a flat washer for a recoil ledge.

I’ll take some caliper measurements and see what I can do.

If I can get a recoil spring ledge solution it would be an easy fix.

Taking any suggestions too!

MVS

12-04-2023, 07:51 PM

Got my metal IDPA boxes today. BUG is pretty small.

P10s comes in on Monday. Got the trigger and mag release already.

Have some mags coming too.

Break out the drill press and angle grinder next week.

Ha ha, yes it is as the numerous blood blisters I got from reloads this summer could attest to.

JCN

12-04-2023, 08:08 PM

I have a personal mantra of “push it one step further.”

I almost gave up, but went to a G34 that I had a tungsten guide rod and adapter.

It seems to fit, will shoot it to see if it’ll function before cutting.

Seems to hand cycle fine.

It’s promising.

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JCN

12-04-2023, 08:55 PM

So it looks like I only have to cut back to the frame / dust cover.

This is unmodified.

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JCN

12-05-2023, 11:09 PM

I tried mocking up with cut springs and new recoil stop position with the Glock adapter…

There’s just not enough spring rate to keep slide in battery without limiting barrel movement and preventing full ejection.

Basically it needs more travel.

Going to think of if I can do something like a helocoil shelf or capped plug and still get enough travel. Boo.

Might be more trouble than it’s worth.

Maybe something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Threaded-Self-tapping-Accessories-Automotive-Industry/dp/B08XQTG2TK/ref=asc_df_B08XQTG2TK/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=663427040056&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11246149024929965039&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9019692&hvtargid=pla-2187449374523&psc=1&mcid=958192233ac0350dbd9eb8374c3cff14

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JCN

12-05-2023, 11:26 PM

The similarities of the P10s and the G26 aren’t lost on me.

I still have that G26-320 I made before.

I could take the compensator off and the RDS off and put some irons back on.

And then drill ports since the slide already has a cutout.

Trim the bottom of the grip and it’s a pretty darn good BUG gun…

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JCN

12-06-2023, 08:18 AM

I had previously bought the DPM triple spring setup for S2, but really didn’t like the unpredictability of the variable spring engagement.

But I’m starting to understand why the subcompact guns often use dual recoil springs for function.

With a short primary recoil spring it doesn’t always want to return to battery crisply, especially if a lighter spring.

The stiffer secondary spring helps snug it up (I’m hypothesizing).

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This may work with the Glock plug if I cut off the third spring area and use it as a dual spring….

Jim Watson

12-06-2023, 03:14 PM

feudist

12-06-2023, 05:58 PM

JCN

12-06-2023, 07:13 PM

Trivia: Those telescoping dual spring recoil sets are based on the Seecamp designed "Spring Extendor". The idea is to get the effect of a longer spring in reduced space. Seecamp used them on their 1911 conversions when shortened to 3.5". The patent expired and they started showing up all over the industry.

It’s brilliant. I never understood why dual spring but playing with reduced space and reduced rates I’m acutely aware of the need now.

JCN

12-06-2023, 09:57 PM

Slide left. Stock RSA. Barrel. S2 DPM cut to dual spring with P229 spring. Glock Gen 1-3 to 4 adapter drilled out.

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If I can countersink the adapter I can buy more margin. I’m think of taper grinding the slide so the adapter wedge fits 3/4 of the way through and using silicone caulk to space fill.

The other option is to use the OEM RSA and drill pin holes (and press in pins) that could hold a washer to stop spring travel.

JCN

12-06-2023, 10:13 PM

Leaning towards reducing insert size so it fits snugly countersunk as deeply as possible. Permatex the gap. Drill sides for set screws or pins to prevent over travel.

JCN

12-07-2023, 01:32 PM

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JCN

12-07-2023, 02:57 PM

BUG PF is 95.

I have steel challenge 100gr and Eley PCC 124gr.

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So I can gauge how much popple and cutting margin I have.

JCN

12-07-2023, 03:04 PM

The Eley shoots POA and cycles slide…

I might just leave it alone for now since it functions…

Yeah, right. Hahaha

feudist

12-07-2023, 03:52 PM

I've made you a new Avatar

https://i.imgflip.com/88lruy.jpg

JCN

12-07-2023, 06:36 PM

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JCN

12-23-2023, 04:35 PM

“Upgraded” front sight.

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JCN

12-23-2023, 05:03 PM

I think overall, a P365 is going to be a better mousetrap but I’m open to experimentation.

I have an FDEZ slide and barrel on order (ported and compensated) and it might work well.

I ordered the XL length slide.

Will consider using it with a Wilson Combat XL grip.

JCN

12-24-2023, 01:13 PM

Replaced striker springs and added HB extended mag release.

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Massaged the dongle engagement to prevent binding.

I have a short list of things left to do.

I ordered a few more 2mm carbide bits to help with fabricating an upgraded recoil spring solution.

JCN

12-26-2023, 09:01 PM

I think this is going to take a lot less massaging to be full prep.

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I thought that their barrel came with the gun, but no matter.

I have plenty of 3.1” OEM barrels to work with.

Since I ordered more carbide bits anyway, might as well drill some barrels…

JCN

12-30-2023, 12:15 AM

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Did 2mm carbide drill holes to set steel pins for inset recoil spring ledge.

Fits nicely in the box

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About the weight it needs to be.

JCN

12-30-2023, 01:41 PM

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Recoil spring tuning at the range.

Was able to do 0.16-18s in final iteration.

Very happy with how the gun shoots.

I might try and fab up either a pinky guard to prevent pinching or some other solution.

JCN

12-30-2023, 05:31 PM

Did the finishing touches on the P10s today.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?58581-JCN-s-getting-old-shooting-sports-maintenance-journal&p=1539150&viewfull=1#post1539150

Now to build the P365 and compare them.

I’m super happy with the P10s. Looks super rough, but super duper functional and shoots extremely well.