How Old and Slow is Too Old and Too Slow to Carry?

[revchuck38]

Elsewhere, Glenn E. Meyer quoted Bill Wilson having said in a magazine article:
Finally, Bill suggested this: “Train frequently with your chosen carry gun. If you can’t draw from concealment and place a hit into an 8-inch area, from 10 yards, within 2.5 seconds, shooting full-charge ammo, you probably shouldn’t carry a gun for self-protection.”

This prompted a couple of responses agreeing and disagreeing with that concept. So I'm throwing this out for discussion - how old and slow is too old and too slow to carry responsibly?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Add accuracy to the criteria? For the young also?

[vcdgrips]

First blush, perhaps a bit restrictive in thought and deed.



I might modify that that re drawing on a threat v responding to a threat i.e. I am a 2.51-10.51 sec drawing individual who can still hit when the gun is up and I am dropping off my grandchild at school when it goes bad, having a 2.5 sec inch presentation is not what is driving the train nearly as much as simply having a gun and being able to not hit innocent folks.

[Chance]

Plenty of "defensive gun uses" involve would-be assailants simply knowing you're armed. Which isn't to say that anyone should rely on a firearm to be a magic talisman to ward off evil, but I think it's a broader discussion than just putting rounds on target.

[Oldherkpilot]

The aviation author Earnest K. Gann was asked when he thought he'd give up flying. He said he'd give up flying when his beard got caught in a propeller. However, since he had no plans to grow a beard any time soon, he'd be flying for some time. I feel pretty much the same about carrying a pistol.

[GJM]

I would have ask Bill to elaborate, as this may be missing context. I am betting he means, if you can't meet this standard, you need to train more not carry less. Also, not sure what full power ammo has to do with a one shot drill. Incidentally, when I spoke to him earlier this week, Bill has turned 70, and is focusing more on new product development.

[SCCY Marshal]

Most people who carry a gun can't do that - at all, much less on demand - at any age and history has shown that they still usually turn out okay. Unless one's family has taken the guns to keep dementia-addled failures in target discrimination from becoming a messy problem, carry on.

[mmc45414]

Lots of gun owners (old and new) have no expectation of any standard, and 10yrd/8in/2.5sec is a reasonable expectation. If he had said it was a standard to aspire to rather than a gating issue as he did, we would all agree.

Never mind that it is probably a higher standard than the LE qualification in most (all?) states... :cool:

[MVS]

I actually think this is a great thing to think about. Nobody wants to get their keys taken away. It meshes into something I observed recently. I was shooting a local indoor "action pistol" night. It is a very low round count affair with almost no movement scored more or less like IDPA. They typically shoot three 6 shot stages once in full light then immediately following in low light. Everyone there I would consider gun guys and good guys, but I surely would not want to be around if they had to draw a gun for real. Another guy and I there are what I would call decent shooters. We ran the whole thing points and all in about 50 seconds. The next closest guy, (an NRA instructor) was around 100 seconds and it just got worse from there. It wasn't just the time and accuracy that was bad it was the gun handling and safety as well. Now in some of the cases I am sure it was never learned right to begin with but in others I am pretty sure age was a big factor. If we don't die young, we will all get old.

[RevolverRob]

MY FIRM BELIEF: There is no standard on the expression of a Constitutionally protected right.

MY OPINION: If you cannot safely operate a motor vehicle, you cannot safely operate a handgun. There are A LOT of people who are 70+ who cannot safely operate a motor vehicle.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Not a legal standard. Dementia would suggest taking action as it does in other realms. How many gun usages would depend on such performance?

Full power ammo - the folks who carry the lesser calibers because of physical limitations, should not carry? While at 75 I can shoot 9mm and 45 ACP, I could see carrying a G44 - which I shot the other day. Thus, I shouldn't carry? Want to measure the speed of my 38 SPL wadcutter rounds?

As far as accuracy, I see Ds and Mikes from good shooters all the time. Cs are failures?

The TX LTC test is an easy standard one might adopt if one supported a carry test.
https://www.stateoftexaschl.com/chl-shooting-test/

NYS state:


On the Instructor’s command to fire, aim at the target and fire all five rounds from
a standing position, from a distance of 4 yards. The target must be a 25 ½ inch
by 11-inch paper target. At least four out of the five rounds must be on target

Now both tests would filter out only absolute horror shows, which I know instructors have seen. Thus, I opine that Wilson's comment is basically a throw away from an older time.

[1slow]

The slower you are, the better you should be at misdirection (Douglas, Fairbairn, Komarov)and “weasel craft (Mas Ayoob)”.

This does not give one an excuse to be slow. Sneaky is just important as well.

[BobM]

Some years ago I did a LEOSA qual for one of our retirees who was around 80 at the time. I knew him a little (he retired several years before I started) but he was known to be a shooter and reloader, at one time favoring a 41 Mag.
He showed up with a 2 1/2 M19. He wasn’t up for running and gunning but he could still shoot.

[blues]

I'll know it when I see it.


(Of if demented or otherwise impaired, hopefully my wife will let me know I'm not the young buck I like to keep thinking I am. I'll probably notice the law of diminishing returns on my day / night LEOSA quals first.)

[MVS]

Elsewhere, Glenn E. Meyer quoted Bill Wilson having said in a magazine article:

This prompted a couple of responses agreeing and disagreeing with that concept. So I'm throwing this out for discussion - how old and slow is too old and too slow to carry responsibly?

I don't know Bill but I am guessing that last part is a throw away line very similar to what he said in the original scoring of the 5X5.



Grand Master: 15 seconds or less
Master: 20 seconds or less
Expert: 25 seconds or less
Sharpshooter: 32 seconds or less
Marksman: 41 seconds or less
Novice: 50 seconds or less
Not proficient enough to carry a handgun: Over 50 seconds

[whomever]

You should stop carrying (and maybe being around guns) if:

1)You no longer have the cognitive ability to make good decisions (e.g. shoot/no shoot)
2)You no longer maintain the SA to avoid the gun just being taken from you
3)You don't have the physical ability to fire the gun

Otherwise, if Granny lives in a bad neighborhood and pocket carries a snubnose, and has the SA to use it, and her plan if trouble comes is to keep one hand on her walker and one on the gun in her pocket, and if need be shoot a mugger at arms length...good for her.

Heck, who needs the gun more, her or a 25 year old IPSC champion walking home from the dojo?

[fatdog]

Mental and cognitive ability are the key indicators of when to stop. Not draw time and splits.

[Totem Polar]

Mental and cognitive ability are the key indicators of when to stop. Not draw time and splits.

This.

[entropy]

Well if you don’t have the cognitive ability to run a firearm or defend yourself...you can always just get into politics.

[feudist]

That seems pretty specious (and Ableist, for shame!)as a requirement for typical self defense encounters.
Maybe he's thinking of being too old to participate in IDPA? And what is "full power" ammunition? Lots of shitstains are dancing and screeching on the grates of Hell because meemaw dumped a handful of .22s into them from a gun she'd never fired.
A diagnosis of dementia would be obvious.
A sufficiently screwed up thumb/trigger finger from arthritis in both hands. Advanced to the point that you can't hold the gun up and pull the trigger once and hit an attacker in his hind leg, perhaps.
I think the fixation on Black Swan event police gunfights and the economics that drive shooting school curriculums tends to warp needs and expectations.

[feudist]

Well if you don’t have the cognitive ability to run a firearm or defend yourself...you can always just get into politics.

There's an amorality requirement too. Stupid is a good start, but it won't take you all the way.

[HCM]

Elsewhere, Glenn E. Meyer quoted Bill Wilson having said in a magazine article:

This prompted a couple of responses agreeing and disagreeing with that concept. So I'm throwing this out for discussion - how old and slow is too old and too slow to carry responsibly?

With all due respect Bill Wilson is a Jeweler turned gunsmith, and a very astute competition shooter and businessman.

But he’s not someone with any significant experience dealing with actual violence or criminals.

The key to someone who can’t meet that standard due to age, physical limits, or carry method carrying is to know their limitations.

As a young man I worked with many retired NYPD officers who worked in the era when NYPD mandated the “Jay-Pee” duty holster. It prioritized retention over fast draw. As a result they emphasized awareness/ seeing trouble coming and the concept that if one did see trouble coming your gun belonged in your hand.

I love me some work on a timer but I put mental factors (awareness & judgment) and safe handling over BW’s abstract standard.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

That seems pretty specious (and Ableist, for shame!)as a requirement for typical self defense encounters.

I think the fixation on Black Swan event police gunfights and the economics that drive shooting school curriculums tends to warp needs and expectations.

I agree and from the last sentence - I would add the fetishism of time. I think Craig used that line. Draw and split times don't seem to be a determinant in most DGUs. It isn't the Old West.

[FNFAN]

I actually think this is a great thing to think about. Nobody wants to get their keys taken away. It meshes into something I observed recently. I was shooting a local indoor "action pistol" night. It is a very low round count affair with almost no movement scored more or less like IDPA. They typically shoot three 6 shot stages once in full light then immediately following in low light. Everyone there I would consider gun guys and good guys, but I surely would not want to be around if they had to draw a gun for real. Another guy and I there are what I would call decent shooters. We ran the whole thing points and all in about 50 seconds. The next closest guy, (an NRA instructor) was around 100 seconds and it just got worse from there. It wasn't just the time and accuracy that was bad it was the gun handling and safety as well. Now in some of the cases I am sure it was never learned right to begin with but in others I am pretty sure age was a big factor. If we don't die young, we will all get old.

You've got a huge point about the gun handling and safety, once that slips it's hard to justify having a gun. Personally, when I do IDPA matches, I'm chasing perfect hits, zero non-shoots and perfect pieing around obstacles as well as absolute muzzle safety. Speed is way down the road as a consideration. A couple anecdotal elderly shooter stories: My former father-in-law wanted a revolver for simplicity sake (he had a pristine T-Series HiPower but didn't like shooting it) and we found him a sweet little Model 15 .38 and took it out on the range. He loaded up and dumped two cylinder full's within the 9 ring on a B27 at seven yards double action at a decent cadence. I asked when he'd last shot a handgun and he said, "Right after the Tet Offensive." He drove a rescue Huey in Vietnam and went on to be a regional director of aviation for the forest service.

The other was my Dad. Dad was in the Corps of Engineers for the effort to rebuild some of German infrastructure after the war; worked building a couple large dams in S. Dakota and then did 32 years in a steel mill driving over the road and then in a Hyster moving steel products. After he retired, he spent another 14 years driving dealer trades for a couple car dealerships. He loved getting out on the road! At some point conversations with Mom got alarming -things like, his having gotten lost returning home from shopping a couple miles away. I was in a position to retire from a job in Vegas and moved back to my home town to help out. We had the conversation about driving, which was one of the most soul wrenching things I've done -but he agreed. We still got out on the road for random road trips with me driving, which he enjoyed. The next thing to be addressed was guns. He'd always been a gun collector and bird hunter and there was always a handgun under the mattress or if summertime with just the screen door closed, in a pistol rug next to him in the lazy-boy. One night when I was repainting their place, I stayed overnight, sleeping in the finished basement. I woke up to seeing the flashlight beam moving back and forth as he was coming down the stairs. I said, "Hi Dad!" and turned on the light. He told me "They" said "there was a fire downstairs." I asked who "they" were and if there was a fire why he brought his Model 27.... The next day that gun had a much shorter firing pin. Within a week of that he'd taken a fall and eventually went into assisted care, where he passed almost a year to the day after arrival. His plot at the Black Hills National Cemetery in Sturgis overlooks I-90 and I like to think it was a great spot for him. Sorry for the long post!

[UNM1136]

With all due respect Bill Wilson as ... a gunsmith, and a very astute competition shooter and businessman.

But he’s not someone with any significant experience dealing with actual violence or criminals.

The key to someone who can’t meet that standard due to age, physical limits, or carry method carrying is to know their limitations.

... As a result they emphasized awareness/ seeing trouble coming and the concept that if one did see trouble coming your gun belonged in your hand.

I love me some work on a timer but I put mental factors (awareness & judgment) and safe handling over BW’s abstract standard.

Many of my first thoughts as well...

pat

[JohnO]

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP. Ppae-mZ-bOxEOPYnAv_XEwHaEo%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=eda2245a71f221f0932606321793ccc319c1994c8622aa fd5909f59e47754377&ipo=images

[HCM]

I agree and from the last sentence - I would add the fetishism of time. I think Craig used that line. Draw and split times don't seem to be a determinant in most DGUs. It isn't the Old West.

I hate to break this to you, but the old west was not the old west in the way. Your statement implies.

Skeeter Skeleton (someone who had considerable acquaintance with real violence and real criminals) addressed this perfectly in an article titled “The Gunmen of El Paso.”

http://darkcanyon.net/gunmen_of_el_paso.htm



The devotee of firearms may draw some valid conclusions from El Paso's bullet-spattered history. While the gunmen of that place were as good as the best of the time - all of them had survived many battles before arriving in the tough border town - nothing in their performances, with the possible exception of Dallas Stoudenmire, indicated that they were outstanding sixgun men. Their close-range encounters, often from ambush, suggested murder and assassination rather than an open contest of skill between men at arms. Examination of their widely diverse methods of carrying their pistols - Hardin's shoulder holsters sewed to his vest, Stoudenmire's pocket draw, the high-ride, pistol-in-the-front-of-the-belly style of Selman and Outlaw - all point to the fact that a fast draw was of small importance to these men. When disputes found them, their sixguns would already be clear of leather and, hopefully, pointed at an unwarlike portion of their opponent's anatomy.

Today's handgunners could skunk any of the oldtimers. Slick, accurate, double-action guns, scientifically designed belts and holsters, a plentitude of practice and ammunition - all these factors make the handgun man of the present easily the master of the best of the 19th-century gunfighters. But turn the Selmans, Hardins, Stoudenmires, and Outlaws loose in the same wild border town against any of today's civilized sixgun experts, and I submit that there would soon be no experts. the reason is one that many of today's antigun fanatics fail to grasp. A shooter and a killer are two different things.



However, time has its place.

It can give one more options. If your use case is mostly get out of trouble verse, go look for trouble you may not need those options, but if you need them, there’s no substitute.

Once MUC and posturing are over fights are basically a series of competing time cycles.

But gun in hand and unequal initiative is still > fast draw.

[HCM]

I actually think this is a great thing to think about. Nobody wants to get their keys taken away. It meshes into something I observed recently. I was shooting a local indoor "action pistol" night. It is a very low round count affair with almost no movement scored more or less like IDPA. They typically shoot three 6 shot stages once in full light then immediately following in low light. Everyone there I would consider gun guys and good guys, but I surely would not want to be around if they had to draw a gun for real. Another guy and I there are what I would call decent shooters. We ran the whole thing points and all in about 50 seconds. The next closest guy, (an NRA instructor) was around 100 seconds and it just got worse from there. It wasn't just the time and accuracy that was bad it was the gun handling and safety as well. Now in some of the cases I am sure it was never learned right to begin with but in others I am pretty sure age was a big factor. If we don't die young, we will all get old.

I don’t buy that this is a primarily an age thing.

In my experience the majority of what you describe is 99% “ never learned right” combined with being too invested in fudd lore to learn right now.

The older shooters with solid backgrounds and /or who have come to / returned to shooting later in life but were open to learning “right” do just fine even into their 70s.

The youngsters may leave them in the dust once moving is involved, but they’re shooting gun handling and safety are on point.

[JCN]

The key to someone who can’t meet that standard due to age, physical limits, or carry method carrying is to know their limitations.


1000% agree.

At work I see people through end of life and the process.

Car keys get taken away (usually by family) when people don’t know limits and insist on pushing past them. The state standard is nebulous and passing doesn’t mean competence.

What I see with conscientious people is that they scale back their driving and scenarios as their skills wane.
No highway, no dusk, no inclement weather.

They know their limits and have risk mitigation levels to prevent hurting themselves and others.

I would expect the same from conscientious handgun practitioners but I know it doesn’t apply to all.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I hate to break this to you, but the old west was not the old west in the way. Your statement implies.

I know that, I should have added that is was the Old West of TV presentation. Besides, Paladin won the day with a derringer hidden behind his belt which he sneakily drew.

Time counts, but Wilson seems to imply a more "Wild West" TV draw shoot out. Certainly his standard being used to tell someone not to carry doesn't make sense in today's world.

[UNK]

NRAs Armed Citizen (do they still do this) is probably full of individuals who couldnt meet this standard yet prevailed.

[SCCY Marshal]

NRAs Armed Citizen (do they still do this)...

Yes, and it remains about the only consistently worthwhile read in their rags.

[MVS]

NRAs Armed Citizen (do they still do this) is probably full of individuals who couldnt meet this standard yet prevailed.

I usually preface any comment I make on training or skills with that thought. I am a huge believer in training and practice, but ya, people get it done a lot without it.

[Redhat]

I'd be interested to know how Mr. Wilson arrived at the standard given in the OP.

[JohnO]

I'd be interested to know how Mr. Wilson arrived at the standard given in the OP.

Very likely through his long association with competitive shooting PPC, IDPA/USPSA and relationships with guys like Ken Hackathorn.


https://youtu.be/GTZoi_3fE_Q?si=PhJe3sqq13Lg37Jk

[Duelist]

You should stop carrying (and maybe being around guns) if:

1)You no longer have the cognitive ability to make good decisions (e.g. shoot/no shoot)
2)You no longer maintain the SA to avoid the gun just being taken from you
3)You don't have the physical ability to fire the gun

Otherwise, if Granny lives in a bad neighborhood and pocket carries a snubnose, and has the SA to use it, and her plan if trouble comes is to keep one hand on her walker and one on the gun in her pocket, and if need be shoot a mugger at arms length...good for her.

Heck, who needs the gun more, her or a 25 year old IPSC champion walking home from the dojo?

This. I will now quote this to anyone who expresses opinions about pistol carry by the older generations - my parents were WWII babies, so it is quite relevant to important people in my life.

[feudist]

Yes, and it remains about the only consistently worthwhile read in their rags.

Skip the fundraising for Wayne's wardrobe and just hit the source.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/the-armed-citizen-nov-6-2023/

Claude Werner did an interesting write up years ago called "The Armed Citizen – A Five Year Analysis" that's widely available on the Net.

[Joe in PNG]

I'mma join the chorus of 'it's more about cognitive abilities over shooting performance'.

[Clusterfrack]

My parents didn't carry guns often, but had a 'never be a victim' mindset that came in part from being Jewish in the WW2-era. My 90lb mom was never without a fixed or folding knife. She had no illusions that she could win against most attackers, but it was being able to fight that was important to her. My dad had a similar attitude, but even more so. I remember him saying that he would rather die fighting than give his wallet to a mugger. Fortunately, that philosophy was never tested. My dad was living alone in his late 80's after my mom passed, and his hands weren't that steady. I asked him if he still wanted his Dan Wesson .357, and his response was that if someone broke in, he wanted to "die with my gun in my hand and hopefully take 'em with me." Hard to argue with that.

[Paul Blackburn]

Ken Hackathon can still get it done in 1.34 and 1.37 seconds. Older doesn't automatically imply slow. I know he has arthritis and other ailments to boot.

There are plenty of gun guys in their late 60's and early 70's that are still quick.


https://youtu.be/Es7ZvlmHkPI?si=uOsfehJKxFGUZKUG

[Leroy Suggs]

I know a "gun guy" in his late seventies who is still quick.

[Jim Watson]

I wish I were. Slow ground speed and slow acquisition of moving targets has put me way down the list at IDPA and USPSA.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Ditto on that. I shoot decently. My times are doubled by walking through the track meet. Today, out of the blue, my bad knee lit up like a volcano and I have to stagger around the house. My dear wife has to go get my cane out of the closet. I won't try to run as it can go and dump me.

Can I draw the gun and hit the target - yes. I'm cognitively aware - wife will give me an argument, haha! Full power ammo, yes for now but arthritis is attacking my right thumb. So, not to much use for Wilson's comments, even though he is a big cheese in the game.

Can still run a pump 12 gauge. Is that full power enough?

[TDA]

NRAs Armed Citizen (do they still do this) is probably full of individuals who couldnt meet this standard yet prevailed.

Probably thirty years ago I recall an incident in The Armed Citizen where a wheelchair bound senior was reported to have produced a .22 rifle from behind his oxygen tank and prevailed over a couple of armed robbers. You can’t win if you don’t fight back, for sure.

[Trooper224]

As far as I know, Bill Wilson was/is a gun gamer, not a gun fighter. Perhaps he should stick to designing them and stay in his lane.

He's obviously using his context as a gamer to frame an objective using arbitrary metrics. Slaying cardboard targets is all about splits and draw times, surviving an encounter in a dark Wal-Mart parking is something else.

[HCM]

/thread.

111379

[TDA]

I can’t think of any adult I’m aware of who got murdered who might not have if they’d had a gun in their pocket.

[rdtompki]

If 2.5 seconds were a requirement I'd be carrying a small revolver in an jacket outer pocket and sans gloves in the winter, but I'd rather depend on SA and getting to cover/concealment than abandon appendix carry. I see sub 1 sec. appendix carry draws on the interweb all the time, but the pistoleros are almost all wearing t-shirts or similar. At my age (78) I'm not going to ATMs at 2am and having to "quick draw" on a bad guy; I'm in the supermarket aisle when a shooter walks in or in a restaurant. While my strong side open carry draw in a match has little relevance to my real world situation, my performance after the gun comes out would matter in the (unlikely) real world defensive situation. No innocent lives at stake then beat feet makes sense and I can still run.

[feudist]

/thread.

111379

"Old age and treachery..."

[JRB]

I'd much rather have experience and sage, calm, squared away competency at my back even if it's slow. A cool thing about salty old guys is it generally takes a lot more to rattle their calm.
That, and folks who are humble & self-aware know their limitations, and can usually work around those limitations especially if they can keep their wits & nerves about them when everyone else is going to pieces.

Running a gun quickly is just one slice of the shitshow pizza.

[Hambo]

I live in FL, so I see a lot of old people shoot. There are some that will burn you down, but there also a lot that are dangerous, and not in a good way. I saw one woman yesterday who should have been tossed off the range. Outside the range, she'll never get a chance to draw. A yute will body slam her into her car while she's trying to open the door and take her purse, her gun, and her car. A lot of people (Bill Wilson included) seem to believe they'll get close to an even break in a strongarm robbery.

As to age and shooting/carrying, do so as long as you're capable and competent, and have the wisdom to know when you aren't.

[mmc45414]

Ken Hackathon can still get it done in 1.34 and 1.37 seconds. Older doesn't automatically imply slow. I know he has arthritis and other ailments to boot.
And now I am pretty sure he also has a range in his yard. :cool:

I am almost 65, so still young in this discussion, but I am shooting pistols better than I have in my entire life, probably because I have been going out almost every weekend for maybe almost two decades. I can piece together the timeline because as my wife became really immersed in her business she started going in every Sunday, so rather than occasionally linking up with my buddies that shoot every week I started meeting them every week. Then eventually I became more monogamous in the pistol department. I used to be all about free love and a different companion all the time, now I am comfortable with my M&Ps. Though I did stray for a 2-3 year phase after the 9mm 1911 came into my life, but I am past that now.

[HCM]

I live in FL, so I see a lot of old people shoot. There are some that will burn you down, but there also a lot that are dangerous, and not in a good way. I saw one woman yesterday who should have been tossed off the range. Outside the range, she'll never get a chance to draw. A yute will body slam her into her car while she's trying to open the door and take her purse, her gun, and her car. A lot of people (Bill Wilson included) seem to believe they'll get close to an even break in a strongarm robbery.

As to age and shooting/carrying, do so as long as you're capable and competent, and have the wisdom to know when you aren't.

Unfortunately IME “dangerous and not in a good way” describes most people I see on local ranges. Especially indoor ranges for reason. It’s not just senior citizens that are shooting up the walls, the ceiling, the target frames, etc..

[Duces Tecum]

It is undeniable that there is a lot of value in the above posts. But it takes more wisdom than I possess to announce to another man what actions he may / may not do when it could involve saving a life important to him. This is especially so when I would not be suffering the consequences of his decision(s).

hugs to all,
Duces

[BN]

MY FIRM BELIEF: There is no standard on the expression of a Constitutionally protected right.

MY OPINION: If you cannot safely operate a motor vehicle, you cannot safely operate a handgun. There are A LOT of people who are 70+ who cannot safely operate a motor vehicle.

Since I'm the age group being talked about, here are my thoughts.

It isn't age. It's an individual thing, just like everything else.

I just turned 78 and the other day I posted on a thread here where I shot the Wizard Drill a couple times with a mouse gun and passed both. Before covid shut down a lot of ranges, I was winning outright or placing high in the local IDPA matches. That was through my 60s and into my early 70's. My Mom safely drove into her 90's and only quit because the arthritis in her shoulders hurt when she raised her hands on the wheel.

Shall not be infringed. That says it all.

[1Rangemaster]

MY FIRM BELIEF: There is no standard on the expression of a Constitutionally protected right.

MY OPINION: If you cannot safely operate a motor vehicle, you cannot safely operate a handgun. There are A LOT of people who are 70+ who cannot safely operate a motor vehicle.

Well said. There are plenty of people under 70 or 60 or 50 for that matter, who are unsafe in many activities. As I ease into retirement, I've given it some thought, and situational awareness and not doing stupid things in stupid places with stupid people are things I will focus on. Add to that, should a situation come up, "not my circus, not my clowns" would be my general guideline.

As to metrics, pretty sure I can now do Wilson's proposed standard, but IMHO that's a competition standard. Years ago, @vcdgripd typed out some "cold standards" that I've saved and try to hit one every month or two. He has a hit to a plate@10 yards, but there is no time limit; you just have to do it cold every time. There are others that have a time standard. To spin over to Claude Werner, who has done a lot of research and thinking from an armed citizen perspective,
he proposes a hit from ready to an 8.5x11 in 4 seconds. He opines that takes care of the major situations a citizen may find themselves in.
Safety, manipulating and awareness/attitude are key parts.

[RevolverRob]

Since I'm the age group being talked about, here are my thoughts.

It isn't age. It's an individual thing, just like everything else.

I just turned 78 and the other day I posted on a thread here where I shot the Wizard Drill a couple times with a mouse gun and passed both. Before covid shut down a lot of ranges, I was winning outright or placing high in the local IDPA matches. That was through my 60s and into my early 70's. My Mom safely drove into her 90's and only quit because the arthritis in her shoulders hurt when she raised her hands on the wheel.

Shall not be infringed. That says it all.

I can turn my own post inside out by pointing out that there are a high percentage of people under the age of 70 who also can't safely operate a motor vehicle. Yet...they think they can.

And judging by the number of automobile accidents, uninsured motorists, driving on suspended licenses, etc. there are people who know they do not meet standards and persist anyways.

Which is to say "standards" don't mean a hell of a lot if they are unenforced or not enforceable. Which all "standards" on Constitutional Rights are.

That does not change my opinion on the matter though, that common sense and basic awareness and operating standards, like those used to drive vehicles, should be some basic standard we all seek to maintain. And that if/when you're not capable, you should considering hanging up your guns.

That said, I ain't sending the cops to your house to take your guns. And I'll fight any politician who tries. Because while I have an opinion, I believe whole heartedly in each person's right to self defense and to keep and bear arms.

[idahojess]

Does anyone know what magazine the original quote that is the topic of this thread appeared in?

Was it an actual quote? Or paraphrasing?

[ST911]

Elsewhere, @Glenn E. Meyer (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=4670) quoted Bill Wilson having said in a magazine article:

This prompted a couple of responses agreeing and disagreeing with that concept. So I'm throwing this out for discussion - how old and slow is too old and too slow to carry responsibly?

It's less about age and speed than humility and self-awareness. Know what you're capable of and not. Do, accordingly.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Does anyone know what magazine the original quote that is the topic of this thread appeared in?

Was it an actual quote? Or paraphrasing?
It’s exact. It was either from a TFB noted or Greg Ellifritz linked article of Old farts opine on carry. Too lazy and dealing with my fucked up knee to dig for it. Sitting in the market while the wife shops. Guess I am an official geezer, unfit to Dane to defend himself. Whine!

[Navin Johnson]

Has anyone taken any of Bill Wilson's training classes? I haven't heard much about them.

[revchuck38]

Does anyone know what magazine the original quote that is the topic of this thread appeared in?

Was it an actual quote? Or paraphrasing?

It came from here (https://gundigest.com/handguns/concealed-carry/everyday-carry-advice), which he probably got from Greg Ellifritz's Weekend Knowledge Dump.

[uechibear]

I'm a martial artist, and when I was younger, I didn't think I needed a gun for self-defense.

Now I carry a gun BECAUSE I'm a bit older and slower!

[Robert Mitchum]

Almost 71... lift 4 to 5 days a week not breaking any of my maxes, but I can deadlift and bench more than a lot of guys in there 40's and some even younger.
Dry fire Everday and 100 rounds a week at the range.

Try to once a Month do Force on Force with a Neighbor who is in his 40's and about my size.

It's all going to go to shit someday but I fight the good fight trying to outrun my age.

[JRB]

When I was a pre-teen and teenager, a family friend of ours was an 07/02 SOT FFL back when that was a pretty rare thing to have (1990's). He regularly did gun shows through this time -it was the 'good days' of gun shows with lots of wheeling and dealing and interesting tables full of milsurp and interesting guns, not a bunch of overpriced random new stuff, tazers, peanuts, and other crap.
But he'd buy batches of popular title 1 firearms from various distributors and throw a few interesting older guns he 'didn't love anymore' just to wheel & deal and find interesting trade deals on historic weapons or military surplus.

A frequent gunshow neighbor of his was a WWII, Korea, & Vietnam Marine Corp veteran, Ed. He retired as a 1stSgt. The dude was in his 80's but had a marathon runner's build, a handshake that'd break your fingers, and a fast easy smile that rarely reached his eyes. After my first enlistment Army I'd recognize that for what it was.
But the dude was a great neighbor to BS with at gun shows, and had all kinds of crazy stories, and he loved pulling my leg and teaching me interesting stuff about all the things he had on his table. He typically wheeled and dealed with interesting old milsurp and antiques, turquoise jewelry, and had a particular love for M1903s and M1911s.

Well he also was a regular vendor at a local flea market. He was at that flea market selling some jewelry and knickknacks one day when three vato-gangster wannabes approached his table. The biggest one and apparent leader reached out and picked up the most expensive piece of jewelry he had on the table, tag on it was $350 if memory serves.
Without skipping a beat, Ed smiled at them and said 'That'll be $350, Sir'.
The largest said 'How about zero dollars, old man?'
'No can do son, that's $350, cash only please'
'I'm gonna take this now. What are you gonna do about it, old man?'
Then as the two lesser vatos started flanking him, one pulled a switchblade out of his pocket, probably to do the whole menacing/intimidation thing, and according to everyone who saw it (and the police report we'd later read with smiles on our faces) Ed grabbed that vato by the wrist, rotated his arm outward to twist his wrist and shoulder until he dropped the knife, and with his right hand he had a 1911 out and pointed at the lead vato's head before the vatos could react.
Then Ed said something to the effect of:
"I'm gonna do this, I got eight rounds in here but I only need three... and that'll be $350 please or you can put it back on my table"

Vatos tucked tail and ran, leaving the switchblade which the APD later got good prints from and connected it to a frequent-flyer gangbanger type and all three eventually faced charges.

If I ever live to be an old man, I hope I'm like Ed.
Honestly, Clint Eastwood's character in Gran Torino was like Ed but with a bitter and shitty attitude about everything. Imagine the same guy only cheerful and happy to joke and smile and say hello to anyone, and that was Ed.

[Duces Tecum]

Try to once a Month do Force on Force with a Neighbor who is in his 40's and about my size.

Robet, you've piqued my curiosity. Why only monthly? Is it to give him time to heal?


Duces

[JTMcC]

I guess I was always neutral on Bill Wilson, I know his company makes some solid products but........
Bill can suck it now.
My Dad (10th SF) carried a gun far beyond "Bill's" arbitrary cutoff point but he knew when and where, and when and where not.
Bill's an idiot. An elderly (my Mom shot shotguns into her 80's) rural human with a solid mind can and will stop a lot of threats while well over "Bill's" time limits.
What an idiot.

[Rex G]

Before I have even started reading any of the reply posts, I will declare that I disagree with the concept that one must me able to shoot into an specific group size at ten yards in a given number of seconds. One simple reason is that most defensive shootings simply do not happen at ten yards and beyond. Of course, one must not endanger the innocent; the rules about safe muzzle direction, safe backstop, knowing what is between me and the target, and knowing what is beyond the target, and understanding one’s accuracy limitation, all still apply. It is a matter of judgement, and self-discipline.

When I carried a bead-sighted shotgun, with buckshot, on police patrol, I knew better than to think that I could safely engage a target, in a big-city environment, beyond 15 yards, especially if the ammo was not FFC, and that seven to ten yards would be better, to allow a margin of safety. (Human opponents tend to move about.) Judgment and discipline.

[Rex G]

It came from here (https://gundigest.com/handguns/concealed-carry/everyday-carry-advice), which he probably got from Greg Ellifritz's Weekend Knowledge Dump.

Yep, this is it. I remember reading this article, some time in the past.

Notably, Bill Wilson is NOT saying that this should be a standard for folks to keep, or lose, the right to keep and arm bears.

[Rex G]

I remember the time when we had to take my elderly father-in-law’s Ruger Speed Six from him. Later, when he actually lived with us, we had to keep all knives locked away. During WW II, he was a member of the AK, the Polish underground. After the war, he had to get out of communist Poland, because he was not a communist. The post-war communist establishment knew that he had resisted the Nazis, and that he might well resist them.

I will NEVER forget the day I had to silently stalk my father-in-law, then beat his reaction time, to take a knife away from him. (He did not recognize a younger family member. Dementia steals one’s most recent memories, first.) A HUGE thanks to Steve Tarani, Bram Frank, and SouthNarc for having taught me things that I used, to accomplish that take-away. (I never attended Craig’s blade-specific training, but a pistol take-away uses the same concepts as a blade take-away.)

[358156hp]

Old habits die hard.

[Stephanie B]

What I see with conscientious people is that they scale back their driving and scenarios as their skills wane.
No highway, no dusk, no inclement weather.

They know their limits and have risk mitigation levels to prevent hurting themselves and others.

My mom went through the same progression. She stopped driving on the highway, then stopped driving at night. When she got lost a second time coming home from the grocery store, she gave her car to her grandson. He got a ten-year old Subaru with less than 25,000 miles on it (and a lot of dents).

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I've seen shooters get 'lost' in a stage and turn towards to the crowd. One always volunteered to score keep and that really worked out well. Trigger on the finger and shots into the ground with a carbine when standing at ready - time to give it up.

[Jim Watson]

I have, too, but it wasn't because they were old and befuddled. Just befuddled.

[Robert Mitchum]

Robet, you've piqued my curiosity. Why only monthly? Is it to give him time to heal?


Duces


We formally do it once a month with stage possibilities of street encounters ... we also spar usually every other week.
Both of us have trained in different styles of fighting ..." time to heal " sometimes I have too.

[medmo]

I feel like we are way off topic. One of the reasons why I love P-F. Let it roll. My sister is a NP and specializes in geriatrics. She calls it “dwindling.” She called it with our mom so I think it’s real. Basically, the last 2 to 5 years of life going down hill and non progressive. Keep your boots on!

[Clusterfrack]

I've seen shooters get 'lost' in a stage and turn towards to the crowd. One always volunteered to score keep and that really worked out well. Trigger on the finger and shots into the ground with a carbine when standing at ready - time to give it up.

Yep. I was ROing an older gentleman shooting PCC at a USPSA match, and he got disoriented. The guy passed the front faultline and started downrange, then began to turn. I literally collared him, kept him facing downrange and gave the stop command. The shooter thanked me for stopping him. He got a re-shoot because he didn't break the 180, and because I touched him. Interestingly, I caught some heat from the rangemaster for laying hands on a shooter.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I was scoring keeping at an IDPA match. So I was standing next to the SO when he told a guy to load and make ready with a 1911. The guy proceeded to insert a mag, rack, go to holster and fire a round into the ground very close to our feet. He then said: Wha happen' - and started to wave the gun. The SO (a old time sheriff) grabbed his wrist.

I also saw a newbie with Serpa holster be unable to release the gun and was fumbling with a manner that would slide his finger into the trigger guard - the SO (another LEO) grabbed him.

I think it is legit.

[JRB]

Yep. I was ROing an older gentleman shooting PCC at a USPSA match, and he got disoriented. The guy passed the front faultline and started downrange, then began to turn. I literally collared him, kept him facing downrange and gave the stop command. The shooter thanked me for stopping him. He got a re-shoot because he didn't break the 180, and because I touched him. Interestingly, I caught some heat from the rangemaster for laying hands on a shooter.

Hopefully I'm still shooting when I'm in my happy golden years. If I am, and the same thing happens, I hope I have an RO willing to 'lay hands' on me to keep things safe if I screw up.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I designed a stage once with a clearly left handed bias (as revenge for all the righties). It included dragging a corpse around. A good friend, goes to Nationals IDPA, and right handed, got tangled in movement and ended up facing us. He stopped dead. Faced back down range, cleared, etc. Without a word, got in his truck and drove away. Such things happen.

At the NTI, we had a corpse draped through a window. One guy forget the offset of AR sights and barrel and proceeded to put all his rounds into the corpse. The corpse did not protest. These were good shooters.

[rdtompki]

New to Steel Challenge shooter in a match a few days ago. I'm not the MD, never took the official RO course, but i've been around the block many times. This middle-age shooter is in my squad. Very strange gear: Baggy cargo pants held up with suspenders, smallish Glock clipped to the pants IWB. No way to tuck his shirt securely in this garb.

Every draw and re-holster had his support (right hand) near the holster to get his shirt out of the way. His mag changes between strings had him switching the gun to his right hand so he could grab a mag off the table. I stood way, way back during all this. Seemed like an invitation to launch a round but he was a good size guy and I shielded myself in his shadow.

As a minimum the MD should have allowed him to shoot non-comp from low ready. In retrospect I should have gone to the MD, made the suggestion in real time, and had the MD fix the problem. Just when you've believe you've seen everything you're proven wrong.

[Rex G]

At the NTI, we had a corpse draped through a window. One guy forget the offset of AR sights and barrel and proceeded to put all his rounds into the corpse. The corpse did not protest. These were good shooters.

It can take an actual match or training drill to truly ingrain the lesson about line-of-sight over bore offset. During an after-action critique, I was told that I very nearly SIM’ed a patrol car spotlight, during a “sim” Glock inservice training scenario that started with coming under fire immediately after coming to a stop, during a traffic stop scenario. I have no way of knowing whether I had unconsciously allowed JUST enough for the offset, or not, but I did actually get a good hit on the role player, without any sim rounds actually hitting the mirror, so, there is that. (Very few class attendees got any hits on the role player, so this was a confidence-booster, for me, especially considering I had not trained with a Glock in several years, and was accustomed to SIG DAK and DA-only with revolvers.)

[SCCY Marshal]

It can take an actual match or training drill to truly ingrain the lesson about line-of-sight over bore offset. During an after-action critique...

After a string of fire from a barricade at a carbine class:

"What ammo you got loaded in that PCC?"

"Some cast lead flat nose, why?"

"It was somehow getting good hits through my barricade. Most rifles start throwing rounds and the shooter notices rather than keep stitching it up."

*I glance at the edges I'd shot "over" and see the holes.*

"Shit."

"I make people sign their booboos. Get started and I'll grab an extra marker in case you run out of ink."