LPVO for Civilian Use?

[Tensaw]

I have started to make this post several times in the past, but each time I decided against doing so because A) don't want to be seen as trolling, and B) don't want to be seen as dumb :D.

I am unable to conjure up a scenario where a citizen would have a real *need* for an LPVO (mounted on an AR) for defensive use. To say it more clearly, I can't really gin up a scenario where a citizen can legitimately engage a crook much past 25 yards and probably not at all past 50 yards. This is squarely in red dot territory. It seems in nearly all citizen defensive shootings, the problem is always speed/time, not PID. About the only scenario I could envision an LPVO being superior to a red dot would be that a family member has been abducted and is being carted off and there is a longer range shot (50+ yards); or some sort of animal attack on someone. In either of those instances, the likelihood of *me* being able to access a rifle in a timely manner and then be able to actually pull off such a shot is low. Even in "mostly peaceful demonstrations" I am not seeing the utility of the LPVO. (Binos might help someone avoid trouble, but scanning with an LPVO seems like a terrible idea.) Perhaps all of this is a failure of imagination on my part.

So, I'm asking and earnest and honest question here. What advantage does an LPVO provide over a red dot when mounted on a home defense AR?

Note: I absolutely understand the uses for LPVOs in the event of complete, long term anarchy/societal breakdown. That's not the question I'm asking.

[JCN]

Tensaw

Perhaps something like this?

https://www.texasmonthly.com/true-crime/stephen-willeford-sutherland-springs-mass-murder/

[WobblyPossum]

I was going to also mention Stephen Willeford. For the scenario most people imagine where some home invader kicks your door in, an LPVO would have no advantage over a red dot, but that’s not the only kind of thing a normal person might use a rifle for. Some people live in rural areas and have large properties. They might carry a rifle on their person around the property. They might have to dispatch a rabid raccoon or a coyote that’s menacing their livestock. Some people live on the US/Mexico border and are concerned about people crossing their property illegally. Some people like to do recreational things in the middle of nowhere. JodyH has written about having a rifle with him while recreating or working in the deserts of NM. Not every normal person use of a rifle is a CQB scenario.

[Tensaw]

Tensaw

Perhaps something like this?

https://www.texasmonthly.com/true-crime/stephen-willeford-sutherland-springs-mass-murder/

Mmmm, maybe... His AR was equipped with a "holographic red dot" according to the article, and he got 'er done... I would be interested to know the distance between the good guy and the shithead when they stopped after the car chase.

[Tensaw]

I was going to also mention Stephen Willeford. For the scenario most people imagine where some home invader kicks your door in, an LPVO would have no advantage over a red dot, but that’s not the only kind of thing a normal person might use a rifle for. Some people live in rural areas and have large properties. They might carry a rifle on their person around the property. They might have to dispatch a rabid raccoon or a coyote that’s menacing their livestock. Some people live on the US/Mexico border and are concerned about people crossing their property illegally. Some people like to do recreational things in the middle of nowhere. JodyH has written about having a rifle with him while recreating or working in the deserts of NM. Not every normal person use of a rifle is a CQB scenario.

I live 30 minutes from the closest red light (and it's another 20 minutes to get to the next one) on 28 acres, half of which is pasture. The house is on the pasture part and my driveway is about 200 years long and I can see about 150 yards down my driveway before it makes a bend. I can see the top of my closest neighbor's house in the winter, but not when there is foliage. I'm in the country. I do have concerns about a carload of methheads (or whatever) rolling up the driveway with bad intentions. Even if I saw the carload of folks turn the corner of the driveway 150 yards out, I don't think I could/would legally/morally justify engaging at that distance. This is not to say that someone might not see me step out on the porch (or out of the shop) with a (red dot-equipped) AR in hand [and in fact this has happened once in the 20 months I've lived here], but it just seems like any festivities would be popping off in the front yard, not down by the creek.

To your point, I do have a very old 1.5-4x optic mounted on an AR precisely for coyotes and other such vermin. (Hell, I've had that set-up for 15 years.) But that rifle isn't what I would grab for bumps in the night.

As far as illegals coming across the property. Are citizens really justified in cracking off shots at illegals so far away that an LPVO is "needed"?

ETA: I'm not against LPVO's - they clearly have a place, but I'm not sure that place is on my rifle geared for HD.

[stomridertx]

I'll paraphrase something I heard Chuck Pressburg say about patrol carbines that I think applies to anyone using a carbine for defense. The main benefit of the LPVO on a carbine is not sniping past 300 yards. It's when the asshole shooting at you takes cover 50-75 yards away behind a car or a dumpster and only presents you his right eyeball and his gun hand at any given moment. Zoom in so you can see that eyeball and drop him before he kills you or someone else.

[Beat Trash]

We all live in different environments and have different needs out of a rifle/optic setup. If you don't foresee the need for a LPVO for what you are expecting to use a rifle for, then get what works best for you and push forward. If your only need is for home defense then a RDO or even irons with a good white light might work best for you.

But not all civilians armed with an AR are looking at defense of the home from within. Especially once you leave an urban environment for a rural area.

There are those with legitimate self defense needs where the magnification from a LPVO is an asset for PID.

There are those whose self defense rifle rifle needs to be able to take care of four legged predators such as coyote or fox.

There are those who obviously are not going to be randomly shooting at illegals crossing their property. But those same people may be receiving incoming fire from the criminals smuggling people or contraband across the owner's property.

[Tensaw]

I'll paraphrase something I heard Chuck Pressburg say about patrol carbines that I think applies to anyone using a carbine for defense. The main benefit of the LPVO on a carbine is not sniping past 300 yards. It's when the asshole shooting at you takes cover 50-75 yards away behind a car or a dumpster and only presents you his right eyeball and his gun hand at any given moment. Zoom in so you can see that eyeball and drop him before he kills you or someone else.

Now that right there,... I can get behind that.

[WobblyPossum]

I live 30 minutes from the closest red light (and it's another 20 minutes to get to the next one) on 28 acres, half of which is pasture. The house is on the pasture part and my driveway is about 200 years long and I can see about 150 yards down my driveway before it makes a bend. I can see the top of my closest neighbor's house in the winter, but not when there is foliage. I'm in the country. I do have concerns about a carload of methheads (or whatever) rolling up the driveway with bad intentions. Even if I saw the carload of folks turn the corner of the driveway 150 yards out, I don't think I could/would legally/morally justify engaging at that distance. This is not to say that someone might not see me step out on the porch (or out of the shop) with a (red dot-equipped) AR in hand [and in fact this has happened once in the 20 months I've lived here], but it just seems like any festivities would be popping off in the front yard, not down by the creek.

To your point, I do have a very old 1.5-4x optic mounted on an AR precisely for coyotes and other such vermin. (Hell, I've had that set-up for 15 years.) But that rifle isn't what I would grab for bumps in the night.

As far as illegals coming across the property. Are citizens really justified in cracking off shots at illegals so far away that an LPVO is "needed"?

ETA: I'm not against LPVO's - they clearly have a place, but I'm not sure that place is on my rifle geared for HD.

While you might not select the same rifle for dealing with predators/varmints that you would for HD, some people only have the one rifle. Most gun owners aren’t like the members of this forum with multiple AR variants in the safe. The rifle they carry to dispatch predators going after the cattle might just be the only one they have so there isn’t a separate HD rifle.

Regarding the meth heads who might find their way coming up your driveway and people trespassing through border properties, it should go without saying that you can’t just crack off rounds towards random trespassers without other factors. Harmless illegal aliens looking for a better life in the US aren’t the only things coming across the border through people’s ranches in border states. Sometimes men with rifles walk across too.

As stomridertx explained, should that carload of meth heads start something in the driveway, it would be easier to land a shot on a partially exposed body part on someone taking cover behind a car with an LPVO than an RDS.

[JCN]

Now that right there,... I can get behind that.


Mmmm, maybe... His AR was equipped with a "holographic red dot" according to the article, and he got 'er done... I would be interested to know the distance between the good guy and the shithead when they stopped after the car chase.

That’s what I was getting at.

He “got it done” with a red dot but had to take an armpit shot and “guess and hope” it hit outside of armor.

Who’s to say he couldn’t have eyeball shot him with an LVPO?

[Noah]

I'm very sympathetic to your argument for all legal home defense. But, I only have one rifle, and my vision sucks, so an LPVO gives me a lot more options for occasional 400-600yd range trips just for fun, and even just precise shooting at my local range. As someone else said, it's not my main concern, but I don't mind having the magnification in my back pocket for more extreme slim possibilities either.

[BWT]

The other side of this is getting more information about the potential target. Emphasis on “potential”.

Would you ever *not* want more info before taking a shot at someone? That’s going to be pretty life altering for everyone involved.

Okay, then a WML and a variable magnified optic makes sense.

I started putting WML’s on my carry gun after having kids (because it also happens to be in the safe on my night stand). I thought “What if a bad guy was in my house… I’d want to see if he was armed or if he grabbed one of my kids I’d want to see if he had a weapon and what position he was in, or if I went looking for a bad guy and saw something move - I’d want to be able to easily see if it was my wife or kids.”

I’m talking myself into an LPVO.

[JCN]

The other side of this is getting more information about the potential target. Emphasis on “potential”.

Would you ever *not* want more info before taking a shot at someone? That’s going to be pretty life altering for everyone involved.

Okay, then a WML and a variable magnified optic makes sense.

I started putting WML’s on my carry gun after having kids (because it also happens to be in the safe on my night stand). I thought “What if a bad guy was in my house… I’d want to see if he was armed or if he grabbed one of my kids I’d want to see if he had a weapon and what position he was in, or if I went looking for a bad guy and saw something move - I’d want to be able to easily see if it was my wife or kids.”

I’m talking myself into an LPVO.

Now you just need to convince the wife that you need night vision too... :D

[Noah]

The other side of this is getting more information about the potential target. Emphasis on “potential”.

Would you ever *not* want more info before taking a shot at someone? That’s going to be pretty life altering for everyone involved.

Okay, then a WML and a variable magnified optic makes sense.

I started putting WML’s on my carry gun after having kids (because it also happens to be in the safe on my night stand). I thought “What if a bad guy was in my house… I’d want to see if he was armed or if he grabbed one of my kids I’d want to see if he had a weapon and what position he was in, or if I went looking for a bad guy and saw something move - I’d want to be able to easily see if it was my wife or kids.”

I’m talking myself into an LPVO.

Handheld lights do that too :p I stick to handheld for EDC just I got tired of carrying WMLs but no reason not to have one on a house pistol (as opposed to a handheld) and not having a WML on a defensive long gun is just folly.

Counterpoint on the LPVO... for many people, they don't have a single potential shot in their home or on their property where magnification would be a factor in PID.
But if someone (like me) still wants to have an LPVO, I don't think thats kilt in streetz territory either.

[Default.mp3]

Perhaps something like this?

https://www.texasmonthly.com/true-crime/stephen-willeford-sutherland-springs-mass-murder/That's not home defense, though, and is a very extreme outlier event in general.

For inside-the-house home defense, I see no upsides to the LPVO compared to the RDS, only downsides. Even outside the house, it is a hard sell to me, outside of extreme rural scenarios. The argument of utilizing magnification for taking precision shots against targets utilizing cover/concealment is such a rare one for a home defense scenario by my risk analysis. It would mean you have to have the room to have that kind of range, have an assailant(s) motivated enough to stick it out under long gun fire, and to have the time position yourself to both find the target and to steady yourself to take the shot while likely being the primary target.

With the LPVO compared to the RDS, you're potentially giving up an illuminated reticle (in the scenario where you do not have the time to turn on the LPVO's illumination), and have added in the complication of eye box and eye relief, in an environment where utilization of barricades and cover, and thus unorthodox shooting positions, can easily come into play.

If you really want some magnification, I would much prefer a magnifier in this application. The additional information that can be provided by the reticle of an LVPO is not a real factor here, and the lower light transmission of the magnifier can be overcome by a high candela WML, given the wish for PID anyway in home defense.

One can certainly make an LPVO work quite well for home defense. But if the sole purpose of a particular rifle is home defense, for the average person I think the LPVO is a suboptimal choice.

[vcdgrips]

Presumptions and slight thread drift

1. My carbine is so 2008 updated in 2014.
2. The Aimpoint Pro ( purchased when my Rev E EO Tech was bought back by them) is a turnkey solution at 500 ish for an RDS and mount that simply work.
3. Given where I live, my need for magnification is minimal
4. If one lived on a parcel of land, the potential need for magnification goes up considerably.

Question:
Is there an LPVO for 500 mounted that has a 2 moa reticle, essentially a true 1x and that is tough enough for home defense?

How about duty use in a case or a rack on the daily with the weather/temp changes that go with?

IF so, then what is the downside, other than battery life, to having a LPVO -just in case?

[JCN]

That's not home defense, though, and is a very extreme outlier event in general.

For inside-the-house home defense, I see no upsides to the LPVO compared to the RDS, only downsides. Even outside the house, it is a hard sell to me, outside of extreme rural scenarios. The argument of utilizing magnification for taking precision shots against targets utilizing cover/concealment is such a rare one for a home defense scenario by my risk analysis. It would mean you have to have the room to have that kind of range, have an assailant(s) motivated enough to stick it out under long gun fire, and to have the time position yourself to both find the target and to steady yourself to take the shot while likely being the primary target.

With the LPVO compared to the RDS, you're potentially giving up an illuminated reticle (in the scenario where you do not have the time to turn on the LPVO's illumination), and have added in the complication of eye box and eye relief, in an environment where utilization of barricades and cover, and thus unorthodox shooting positions, can easily come into play.

If you really want some magnification, I would much prefer a magnifier in this application. The additional information that can be provided by the reticle of an LVPO is not a real factor here, and the lower light transmission of the magnifier can be overcome by a high candela WML, given the wish for PID anyway in home defense.

One can certainly make an LPVO work quite well for home defense. But if the sole purpose of a particular rifle is home defense, for the average person I think the LPVO is a suboptimal choice.

Oh I agree with you.

We all have different use case scenarios and tolerance for "stakes not odds" math so just bringing out the outliers.

Highlighting that it's not the distance, but the ability for magnification (in very specific situations) to make better hits at defensible distances.

And as an aside: the Primary Arms shake awake scope battery add on is great for "instant on" for reticle... I use it on my dry fire gun.

https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-autolive-battery-cap




Personally, my bedside safe gun is a 9mm handgun because weight and speed (and one handedness to be able to herd family with the other hand).

But there might be additional situations where an RDS SBR might be a better option if you had time.

And others where potential LPVO might also come into play.

One extremely unlikely scenario might be like Boston Marathon bombing aftermath when brother was skulking around in backyards hiding. He was hiding in one person's boat and the person noticed.

If you had known armed and dangerous people in your backyard and you couldn't quite tell without magnification... that could be a potential situation where I could see someone waiting for police to come but still being ready to take action if the threat started coming for their family.

[mmc45414]

But, I only have one rifle, and my vision sucks, so an LPVO gives me a lot more options for occasional 400-600yd range trips just for fun, and even just precise shooting at my local range. As someone else said, it's not my main concern, but I don't mind having the magnification in my back pocket for more extreme slim possibilities either.

One can certainly make an LPVO work quite well for home defense. But if the sole purpose of a particular rifle is home defense, for the average person I think the LPVO is a suboptimal choice.

IF so, then what is the downside, other than battery life, to having a LPVO -just in case?

Just yesterday I posted in the LPVO thread (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?46917-LPVOs-in-2023-and-beyond&p=1524970&viewfull=1#post1524970) about my current plan to consolidate my LPVO gun I shoot once or twice a month at matches and my RDO gun that just sits in my safe in condition two, and have just one gun that gets used frequently. Though I do plan to retain my 300BO (and 9mm) with a RDO, so I am kinda cheating on my concept.

Some of this could be my eyesight (monovision with implant lenses from cataract surgery) but in my case the RDO is not the super-huge close-range advantage over the LPVO. At this point in my life I am just sum (older) dood, if I was kicking doors and serving warrants (not that I ever have) I would probably want a RDO. But as was discussed, if I am defending myself, in anything but the most unrealistic outlier situation, it will be with a pistol. Or maybe with some unrest situation that created an advanced notice, perhaps a shotgun.

My viewpoint (I crack myself up...) is more of being able to do some things with the LPVO I cannot do with the RDO, and what I might be able to do a few milliseconds faster with a RDO I will be doing with a pistol (maybe with a RDO!). But instead of having two guns that are very similar except for their sighting system, I am going to focus on just the one that I actually take out and shoot matches with every few weeks. This is a bit ass-backwards, since the game playing is driving the gear decision, and the game could (should?) be setup for being able to deal with the stages with a RDO, but those stages might not be as fun of a game. And after dabbling in local matches for a few years I find myself using a little magnification on some target arrays that prior I would have expected to do with a RDO. I guess in my opinion and experience, the LPVO gun will pretty much do what the RDO gun will, plus a bunch of other stuff.

[Default.mp3]

We all have different use case scenarios and tolerance for "stakes not odds" math so just bringing out the outliers.

Highlighting that it's not the distance, but the ability for magnification (in very specific situations) to make better hits at defensible distances.I don't find the use of outliers meaningful because in this comparison, the downsides to an LPVO isn't just financial cost, but performance, too, compared to an RDS, so I don't think a pure "stakes not odds" calculation is appropriate. Once you start making performance compromises, odds have to be included in the calculation, IMO, because you can be giving up advantages in the high(er) probability event for some advantage in a low probability event.


And as an aside: the Primary Arms shake awake scope battery add on is great for "instant on" for reticle... I use it on my dry fire gun.

https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-autolive-battery-capI saw that when they came out with it at SHOT this year (or some other expo). There are two issues for me personally that I see with it. The first is that it does not work with any of the top tier LPVOs (S&B, Nightforce, Vortex Razor, Kahles, March, etc.). The second is that the battery life on an LPVO is so short that I'm not sure I want a motion sensor to dictate on/off (same issue I see with an HWS having such a feature); the problem arises with the battery drain issue that one might see when the rifle is being transported on a regular basis in a vehicle; a lock-out mechanism might help mitigate that issue (or turning the illum off for the AutoLive battery cap), but it also means more complexity in operating the optic on an admin level, since now you need to remember to enable the lock-out during transport/patrol, while remembering to disable the lock-out once that event is over. Something that can be done if one is diligent, I'm sure, but I'm still leery of the idea for something where the battery life is in the hundred of hours.


And others where potential LPVO might also come into play.

One extremely unlikely scenario might be like Boston Marathon bombing aftermath when brother was skulking around in backyards hiding. He was hiding in one person's boat and the person noticed.

If you had known armed and dangerous people in your backyard and you couldn't quite tell without magnification... that could be a potential situation where I could see someone waiting for police to come but still being ready to take action if the threat started coming for their family.As I previously noted, an argument for magnification is not necessarily an argument for an LPVO; magnifiers can provide the necessary magnification, at least in realistic distances from a pure home defense situation. I'd also be leery of using an optic mounted on a rifle for PID on an unknown target.

Again, these are only considerations for a rifle purely dedicated to home defense. One you start trying to do a GP rifle that will be used in home defense, but also in plenty of other roles, then I think the LPVO has a much stronger leg to stand on; the LPVO might be inferior to the RDS for pure home defense, but it can certainly be a "good enough" option that provides a host of other advantages in other realms.

[Noah]

Again, these are only considerations for a rifle purely dedicated to home defense. One you start trying to do a GP rifle that will be used in home defense, but also in plenty of other roles, then I think the LPVO has a much stronger leg to stand on; the LPVO might be inferior to the RDS for pure home defense, but it can certainly be a "good enough" option that provides a host of other advantages in other realms.

This is where we probably all really agree and what we're talking around and about.

I do think a rifle with an RDS and a QD magnifier is a great setup. Slick with RDS only in the bedside safe, you can stash the QD flip magnifier with all your larping kit in the basement. I've had that setup for a long time.

My home defense AR has an LPVO because it's also my paper punching rifle and my competition rifle and my GP rifle.

[mmc45414]

Once you start trying to do a GP rifle that will be used in home defense, but also in plenty of other roles, then I think the LPVO has a much stronger leg to stand on; the LPVO might be inferior to the RDS for pure home defense, but it can certainly be a "good enough" option that provides a host of other advantages in other realms.

My home defense AR has an LPVO because it's also my paper punching rifle and my competition rifle and my GP rifle.

my current plan to consolidate my LPVO gun I shoot once or twice a month at matches...
This is a bit ass-backwards, since the game playing is driving the gear decision

Quoting myself because I wanted to reiterate that many of my opinions might not have been my opinions a few years ago when I hadn't started doing two and three gun matches. And this is another consideration, there is also a debate between gaming and training, but not too many folks go to a training class once or twice a month, but it is (depending on where you live) probably easy to go to a match or two every month. In my case this is driving me to more focus on the LPVO, because the locally accessible matches are going to require them. But the great part about it is getting out and shooting some stages that some other guy dreamed up (rather than practicing what we are already good at, as we all tend to do) has really helped me. And it has also illustrated, in my case, that the scope is very helpful, and doesn't really hold me back at closer ranges. But I would have asserted to opposite a few years ago.

[JCN]

Default.mp3 I hear you and agree with you mostly.

I think outliers still bear consideration because home defense itself is planning for an outlier event.

(Made up numbers below)
99% chance I’ll never need a firearm to defend my home.
Out of that 1% chance… 99% chance a revolver would be good enough.
Out of that 1% chance… 99% chance I wouldn’t need a rifle at all for armor penetration and multiple threat engagement.

I don’t think there’s a black and white place where outlier preparation becomes unreasonable.

Having an RDS with flip up QD magnifier is a great option.

Having an LPVO doesn’t mean you can’t run a piggyback or offset RDS though. Or a laser.

So I agree with you, but would leave it up to the cost/benefit comfort of the individual instead of saying yes/no.

[Wake27]

I've picked up more rifles with unusable (dead) red dots than I have unusable LPVOs. For pure HD stuff, the etched reticle will always be there.

[Clusterfrack]

I've picked up more rifles with unusable (dead) red dots than I have unusable LPVOs. For pure HD stuff, the etched reticle will always be there.

I agree--sort of. I like an etched reticle for that reason, and also because there's no need to adjust the brightness.

But... I strongly prefer a 1x dot over a LPVO for dynamic shooting at 0-50yds.

I have never let the battery die in my two home defense ARs. I have sticky notes next to them in their safes that remind me to replace the battery.

BUIS also address this issue. And at most HD distances, index and just the optic window work well enough.

The PA SLx-1x has an etched reticle, and that's on one of my HD guns.

[stomridertx]

The thread just highlights to me that budget LPVOs are just a non-starter. If you go the LPVO route for a do-all rifle including home defense, even in 2023 the shopping needs to start with the Vortex Viper PST II 1-6 on the bottom end of what's acceptable. It's just the cost of entry. I can see how someone would say the 1x on a Strike Eagle sucks compared to a red dot, but I don't see how you can't clear a house effectively with the HUD-like display of the Razor 1-6. I have an offset dot, but I still prefer shooting on 1x with the Razor when I'm not using magnification. There's the argument of eyebox limitation, but that's mitigated by the tier 1 scopes. There are awkward positions where dots are more forgiving, but your house doesn't present a lot of those. That's pure ready-up shooting with a cheek weld or shooting around a corner. I do think the SFP LPVOs shine in this role because you can see the illumination even in the presence of scope shadow. For the folks that do worse with 1x on an LPVO, are you adjusting your diopter correctly? It's a bit different for a LPVO compared to a traditional scope where it's just for reticle focus, you need to tune it for your best 1x view at the same time.
I have a 14.5 lightweight build designated for "home defense" with a red dot primary that shoots really well with its Faxon Gunner barrel. My do all rifle is a 16" BCM that shoots exceptionally well that has the aforementioned Razor 1-6/Offset dot combo. After about a year of shooting the LPVO and dot combo, I'm seriously considering moving it to the lightweight gun and buying an SPR type scope for the 16" gun, ditching the idea of primary red dot for good. Or, saving the red dot primary for an AR pistol build when the Supreme Court finally shuts down the rule for good, which is a different conversation.

[stomridertx]

Presumptions and slight thread drift

1. My carbine is so 2008 updated in 2014.
2. The Aimpoint Pro ( purchased when my Rev E EO Tech was bought back by them) is a turnkey solution at 500 ish for an RDS and mount that simply work.
3. Given where I live, my need for magnification is minimal
4. If one lived on a parcel of land, the potential need for magnification goes up considerably.

Question:
Is there an LPVO for 500 mounted that has a 2 moa reticle, essentially a true 1x and that is tough enough for home defense?

How about duty use in a case or a rack on the daily with the weather/temp changes that go with?

IF so, then what is the downside, other than battery life, to having a LPVO -just in case?

If $500 is the hard limit, then it's the Vortex Viper PST II 1-6 used or the new Primary Arms SLX 1-6 with the Nova reticle. Their dots are smaller than 2 MOA, but they get so bright via their fiber wire illumination that it's functionally the same. The PA is surprisingly great on 1x and has a great reticle, but the glass is the minimum acceptable level for longer range.
The Vortex Viper is actually a good analogy as it would be the Aimpoint Pro equivalent compared the Razor which would be the T2 in this comparison.

[HeavyDuty]

I agree--sort of. I like an etched reticle for that reason, and also because there's no need to adjust the brightness.

But... I strongly prefer a 1x dot over a LPVO for dynamic shooting at 0-50yds.

I have never let the battery die in my two home defense ARs. I have sticky notes next to them in their safes that remind me to replace the battery.

BUIS also address this issue. And at most HD distances, index and just the optic window work well enough.

The PA SLx-1x has an etched reticle, and that's on one of my HD guns.

My personal wish list is a high quality 1x prism configured like a quality RDS with shake awake, dedicated flip ups and a common base. The PA SLx-1x is 90% of the way there.

[Wake27]

I agree--sort of. I like an etched reticle for that reason, and also because there's no need to adjust the brightness.

But... I strongly prefer a 1x dot over a LPVO for dynamic shooting at 0-50yds.

I have never let the battery die in my two home defense ARs. I have sticky notes next to them in their safes that remind me to replace the battery.

BUIS also address this issue. And at most HD distances, index and just the optic window work well enough.

The PA SLx-1x has an etched reticle, and that's on one of my HD guns.

I can kill my dots in 4-6 months if I leave their brightness at the level I typically shoot with. A sticky note on the gun or next to it would help but it’s just tedious IMO. I do prefer eotechs for any kind of close in shooting and I usually won’t leave the LPVO gun in an HD role but that’s mostly because of my wife. If it were just me, I’d keep a Razor 1-6 or 1-10 as primary for everything to include HD. Prisms are meh to me, I just really appreciate the tremendous capability in a solid LPVO.

[Noah]

If $500 is the hard limit, then it's the Vortex Viper PST II 1-6 used or the new Primary Arms SLX 1-6 with the Nova reticle. Their dots are smaller than 2 MOA, but they get so bright via their fiber wire illumination that it's functionally the same. The PA is surprisingly great on 1x and has a great reticle, but the glass is the minimum acceptable level for longer range.
The Vortex Viper is actually a good analogy as it would be the Aimpoint Pro equivalent compared the Razor which would be the T2 in this comparison.

I've been extremely happy with the PA Nova, both indoors and out to 600 yards. I previously owned a Leupold 1.5-4, many dots and magnifiers, Vortex 5x Prism with a Holosun on top, TA31 with an angled Holosun T1 clone, and Viper PST 1-6, and lots of cheap LPVOs, cheap prisms, and more dots and mags before that.

[Exiledviking]

I agree--sort of. I like an etched reticle for that reason, and also because there's no need to adjust the brightness.

But... I strongly prefer a 1x dot over a LPVO for dynamic shooting at 0-50yds.

I have never let the battery die in my two home defense ARs. I have sticky notes next to them in their safes that remind me to replace the battery.

BUIS also address this issue. And at most HD distances, index and just the optic window work well enough.

The PA SLx-1x has an etched reticle, and that's on one of my HD guns.

How is the eye relief on the 1x PA SLX? I have a 3x PA SLX that I use for informal competition shooting and I have two issues with it; the short eye relief (I had to remove the BUIS in order to get it where I had decent eye relief) and the OE mounts don't appear to be tough enough for serious use (see Focus Tripp's testing on YouTube of the 3x PA SLX where the cantiler arm gets bent and the POI shifts ~ 4 feet).
I've thought about moving the 3x SLX and picking up a 1x SLX and using the spare Midwest Industries QD mount with it. But, the limited eye relief of the 3x has me concerned.

[Noah]

How is the eye relief on the 1x PA SLX? I have a 3x PA SLX that I use for informal competition shooting and I have two issues with it; the short eye relief (I had to remove the BUIS in order to get it where I had decent eye relief) and the OE mounts don't appear to be tough enough for serious use (see Focus Tripp's testing on YouTube of the 3x PA SLX where the cantiler arm gets bent and the POI shifts ~ 4 feet).
I've thought about moving the 3x SLX and picking up a 1x SLX and using the spare Midwest Industries QD mount with it. But, the limited eye relief of the 3x has me concerned.
The 1x has a huge eye box

[Clusterfrack]

How is the eye relief on the 1x PA SLX? I have a 3x PA SLX that I use for informal competition shooting and I have two issues with it; the short eye relief (I had to remove the BUIS in order to get it where I had decent eye relief) and the OE mounts don't appear to be tough enough for serious use (see Focus Tripp's testing on YouTube of the 3x PA SLX where the cantiler arm gets bent and the POI shifts ~ 4 feet).
I've thought about moving the 3x SLX and picking up a 1x SLX and using the spare Midwest Industries QD mount with it. But, the limited eye relief of the 3x has me concerned.


The 1x has a huge eye box

I have it on my 300BLK cheek pistol because the eye box is so generous. I'm just using the lower 1/3 mount--not the janky cantilever.

[stomridertx]

The question this thread poses is also reinforcing my opinion that the industry is moving in the wrong direction on LPVOs by trying to balance the compromises of a 1-10x FFP magnification. I think they got it right with 1-6x SFP and fiber illumination. That R&D should go to making a better MPVO for SPR builds. Getting 1x on the bottom limits the size of the objective too small for the higher magnifications to be as good as they should be. Again, just my opinion and the market will rightfully ignore me. I'll go even further in the opposite direction, if Leupold could figure out how to get 1x instead of 1.5x at the low end of their ultra-light 1.5-4x scopes and put a simple mil reticle with their illuminated center dot, I don't know why you'd choose a prism over that. Their Mark 3HD scopes are almost on the money, but they won't even try true 1x on the low end of those and I'm not sure what the engineering challenge is keeping them from doing it.

[Darth_Uno]

How is the eye relief on the 1x PA SLX? I have a 3x PA SLX that I use for informal competition shooting and I have two issues with it; the short eye relief (I had to remove the BUIS in order to get it where I had decent eye relief) and the OE mounts don't appear to be tough enough for serious use (see Focus Tripp's testing on YouTube of the 3x PA SLX where the cantiler arm gets bent and the POI shifts ~ 4 feet).
I've thought about moving the 3x SLX and picking up a 1x SLX and using the spare Midwest Industries QD mount with it. But, the limited eye relief of the 3x has me concerned.

I highly recommend the Swampfox Trihawk (3x). Now I don't know how well it holds up if you beat the crap out of it, but I don't beat the crap out of it, so I guess we'll never know.

I'm not a JuSt As GoOd guy, I've owned Aimpoint, ACOG's and Eotechs. And I really like the Trihawk.

[DMF13]

https://pistol-training.com/rifle-optics/

AND

". . . shot fired, suspect's down . . ."


https://youtu.be/UrmCUX-m6zw?si=OmzGFn2lwiUgRZt0

[stomridertx]

"A 1X scope can work just fine, assuming you can see the reticle. However, it will never have the ease of use of an RDS at 1X, since the eye box and eye relief are much more limiting. "
I still think this view is outdated. I don't think anyone with the Japan and German made 1-6 SFP LPVOs feels limited by their 1x eye box. Your awkward position has to be REALLY awkward to wish for a red dot. I have helped a bunch of dudes out our range adjust their diopter on LPVOs and their eyes light up on the improved 1x. Those of you who think the 1x prism optics have wonderful eyebox characteristics, that's what the good LPVOs are like too.
The weight argument I do understand as I'm usually close to adding around 2lbs of optic weight to gain this versatility and I get guys not wanting that.

[ECVMatt]

I have both and primarily use the RDS on my HD rifle however I would not feel limited by my LVPO if that is all I had. If I were forced to choose one, it would be the LVPO for a couple of reasons. First of all, I liked the etched reticle always being viewable regardless of battery status. I also am able to use it up close to my satisfaction. Lastly I find the ability to dial up magnification useful. Part of my home safety plan involves moving the family from the city where we live to the high desert where we have a family house. I realize that this might be beyond the immediate need for HD, but we actually used our plan during COVID to rapidly move the family when cases were spiking and people were rioting. In this situation, I sent the red dot with my son, because it is very simple and he shoots well with it. I sent the family off early in the AM to avoid crowds but I was required to stay at work and had to follow them later in the afternoon.

When I left latter that day, thing were getting crazy in the city and I was happy to have the LVPO on 1x. It is about a 2.5 hour drive and half way there, the topography transitions to sage brush, foothills, and manzanita brush. As I reached this area, I was glad I could increase the power to 3X. I can still shoot this relatively fast up close, but it is much better suited to the terrain I was traveling through. once I have transitioned to the desert, it becomes a vast and open landscape. While I kept the rifle on 3x, it was nice to know that I could add magnification if needed.

Not to be an alarmist, but in the last five years the desert has now been taken over by large illegal pot farms run by Chinese nationals and most likely cartel members. This has added a new factor to consider as I head for the desert house. I have the ability to get off of main highways and take dirt roads the remaining 50 miles or so to my house. However I need to be cognizant of these new and changing obstacles. It is out here where I really appreciate having an LVPO. Distance is your friend out there and the LVPO helps you to make the best use of it.

Again, I realize this is not a home invasion type HD situation, but it is a reality for my family and a component of how we address our overall safety. A red dot would most certainly work, but the LVPO works better for me and would also work for a home invasion style confrontation.

Just because, here is a picture from an illegal pot farm located on the back way to my home. It is abandoned, but shows the thought and complexity put into these farms. It was leveled with a bulldozer, 10 foot high berms around the entire compound are built, it is trenched to provide gravity feed water and irrigation and each structure has a simple version of a swamp cooler AC installed. The structures themselves were about 30 by 60 feet and this particular farm had about 125 of them. It has become bizarro world out there and we get zero help from federal and state agencies. Our local county sheriff tries to help, but the magnitude of all these farms (100's if not 1000's of them) leaves them overwhelmed.

I probably wrote too much, but in a few words, the LVPO is the way to go for my HD rifle.

111307

[JCN]

Just because, here is a picture from an illegal pot farm located on the back way to my home. It is abandoned, but shows the thought and complexity put into these farms. It was leveled with a bulldozer, 10 foot high berms around the entire compound are built, it is trenched to provide gravity feed water and irrigation and each structure has a simple version of a swamp cooler AC installed. The structures themselves were about 30 by 60 feet and this particular farm had about 125 of them. It has become bizarro world out there and we get zero help from federal and state agencies. Our local county sheriff tries to help, but the magnitude of all these farms (100's if not 1000's of them) leaves them overwhelmed.

I probably wrote too much, but in a few words, the LVPO is the way to go for my HD rifle.

111307

Am I the only one that immediately perked up at the thought of a ready made USPSA / action pistol range…

[Dov]

If a Red Dot works for you and your confident in it your good to go IMO, but that isn't true for everyone.

1. Red Dots don't work for everyone's eyes.

2. Low Light Favors a Scope or Binocs, they are like low tech night vision IMHO the bigger the objective and lower magnification the better the light "amplification". And it's probably just verbal shorthand on this thread from most that post here but the phrasing about PID with sights in this thread makes me cringe every time I see it because it sounds to me like person means they would use it as primary identification of target, but from a safety perspective, especially at home with your loved ones, it should be a last backup to other forms of identifying if there is even a threat in the first place that doesn't involve pointing a weapon at anything you aren't willing to shoot, to avoid Claude Werner's Negative Outcomes https://thetacticalprofessor.net/category/negative-outcomes-2/

3. For defense, vs LEO/Military ambushing the badguys ideally from behind cover/concealment is key to surviving/winning see BehindBlueI's excellent posts, so IMO the speed advantage of the Red Dot is not significant:

"stay put and wait vs charging in" https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?38348-Shotguns-vs-rifles&p=925059&viewfull=1#post925059
"Regardless of weapon type, those who acted from ambush and used what I term "speed, surprise, and ferocity of attack" almost always won. It's the #1 predictor of who will win, more than weapon type, more than number of defenders vs attackers, more than which side had the "better" weapons, etc." https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?38348-Shotguns-vs-rifles&p=925127&viewfull=1#post925127
How People Lost Random Encounter Gun Fights https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?51954-How-People-Lost-Random-Encounter-Gun-Fights



4. Some lack confidence in Red Dots or Scopes, IME people perform better with tools they have both skill and confidence in. So regardless if they are objectively right or wrong if someone doesn't trust battery operated device IMHO they will have a much stronger mindset with sight they don't doubt.

Personally I don't think I'd ever care to have Red Dot as primary sight on rifle/carbine, but then I've actually had issues with sights not being precise enough or visible (night time) for field use (not combat). That trust thing.

For me the defensive use the Scope isn't for long range benefit, rather they have simply worked more consistently for me in more varied situations, but I want iron backup as well.

Having Red Dot as secondary sight on carbine/rifle makes a lot of sense to me, especially for general use whether military combat, patrol rifle, etc. Though for me personally I'd still want some type of backup/offset iron sights.

I favor laser over Red Dot as Secondary Sight for home defense because it offers some advantages over other sighting systems in that environment. A properly configured laser sight provides less offset from bore specially for AR platform, not just less adjustment to offset for accurately placing shots, but it also reduces situations where the sightline to target is clear but shooter isn't aware the muzzle is obstructed. It also allows for even more odd firing positions than Red Dot, just like laser on handgun for guy carrying Body Bunker, you can have a laser sighted weapon on target without exposing your head, or if space is confined and you can't get behind rifle for conventional sighting position a laser sight is still a usable sight.

Yes Red Dot is going to be faster than laser for most, in defensive shootings, especially home defense ones with loved ones around like DB and others say you don't want to be shooting past your assessment speed. To likely to have a Negative Outcome.

[mmc45414]

This might be a broad generalization, but I am inclined to have more confidence in a lower cost scope than a lower cost RDO.
Obviously things can go wrong with a scope, but they are mechanical things, with an electronic optic you are relying on mechanical and electrical things to continue working.

[mmc45414]

I don't think anyone with the Japan and German made 1-6 SFP LPVOs feels limited by their 1x eye box. Your awkward position has to be REALLY awkward to wish for a red dot.

Last Sunday we shot this stage that started with shooting that poorly contrasted target from back by the stacked barrels at about 90yds, where 2-3x was pretty helpful, but also included shooting three larger (painted) targets through one of the flat slots on a VTAC barrier at about 60yds. I went back to 1x and held the rifle almost flat and stuck my face somewhere behind the scope and it was no problem. This is with just a low-end Strike Eagle, nothing fancy.

111331

ETA: Later in the day we made a rifle shot on this target and I don't think the scope cost me any time, just lay the horizontal crosshair on the top of the target and pew-pew:

111332

ETAagain: We also shot the four downrange targets while alternating over and under the table. I had left in some magnification I wanted on a prior array and I should have pulled back to 1x, because I goofed and shot one of the targets twice. My only penalty of the whole day, at least Learning Occurred! :cool:

111333

[KevH]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ECsYCd8Ttw

[stomridertx]

Another factor sometimes not always considered. I'm 48 with osteoarthritis in both knees and both shoulders. Moving fast in and out of awkward positions where a red dot would outperform a LPVO is not really a reality for me, although I'm working on it. If I'm not as mobile as my opponent then I need to be more accurate. You know those cool freaking videos with go-fast dudes tearing through a course with a carbine, dropping in and out of urban and rice paddy prone positions, shooting on the move at breakneck speed from every possible angle? Nobody is excited to film me doing those things. However, with a LPVO on 1x I can ready-up snap shoot really well, and if I get a stable position with some magnification I can send accurate rounds down range.

[TWR]

STORMridertx would you explain how to adjust the focus on a LPVO like you mentioned earlier?

I’m 59 and just last Monday got me a pair of glasses that allow me to see better than I have in years. As a result, I’m having to refocus all my scopes and I’m really curious what difference focusing the reticle on low power and the image. It all seems to be the same. I embraced the blur for so long, almost everything is an improvement.

The other benefit of glasses is my red dots are now dots! And I’ve had to resight all of my pistol dots. Next thing will be to run some drills with my carbines and see which is better for me now, scope or dot.

[mmc45414]

Nobody is excited to film me doing those things.
Am nearly 65yo but I recently made some changes with medication and my knees have been feeling much better. Last month I told my wife I think I am running better, showed her some video from the match, and she started laughing hysterically. This month I didn't ask anybody to record any video of me... :cool:

[HCM]

Another factor sometimes not always considered. I'm 48 with osteoarthritis in both knees and both shoulders. Moving fast in and out of awkward positions where a red dot would outperform a LPVO is not really a reality for me, although I'm working on it. If I'm not as mobile as my opponent then I need to be more accurate. You know those cool freaking videos with go-fast dudes tearing through a course with a carbine, dropping in and out of urban and rice paddy prone positions, shooting on the move at breakneck speed from every possible angle? Nobody is excited to film me doing those things. However, with a LPVO on 1x I can ready-up snap shoot really well, and if I get a stable position with some magnification I can send accurate rounds down range.

For “self assessment” video a cheap tripod is quite effective.

https://www.amazon.com/Sensyne-Extendable-Wireless-Compatible-Android/dp/B09TQY66NH/ref=mp_s_a_1_1_sspa?crid=E4WKNQ1JOK6T&keywords=tripod+for+iphone+5+ft&qid=1699801774&sprefix=5%27+tripod+%2Caps%2C282&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9waG9uZV9zZWFyY2hfYXRm&psc=1

[stomridertx]

STORMridertx would you explain how to adjust the focus on a LPVO like you mentioned earlier?

I’m 59 and just last Monday got me a pair of glasses that allow me to see better than I have in years. As a result, I’m having to refocus all my scopes and I’m really curious what difference focusing the reticle on low power and the image. It all seems to be the same. I embraced the blur for so long, almost everything is an improvement.

The other benefit of glasses is my red dots are now dots! And I’ve had to resight all of my pistol dots. Next thing will be to run some drills with my carbines and see which is better for me now, scope or dot.

Usually with scopes you go to max power, point it to the sky or a white background and adjust the diopter until the reticle is clear. On an LPVO, keep it on 1x and point at a target at 25 yards that has some kind of horizontal reference where you can compare the image through the scope with the image in your other eye with both eyes open. Now you are looking for 2 things: a sharp reticle and a 1x image that matches what your naked eye sees at 25 yards. Quality LPVOs that are well executed let you have your cake and eat it too with these 2 factors. Know that you will always have a slightly magnified view on targets so close they are right in front of you due to where the objective is in relation to your eye, but at that close of a distance it doesn't matter. Don't judge an LPVO's 1x by what you see by looking at something extremely close to you. The "true 1x" effect should be present at around 5 yards and out, and on the Razor it's a bit closer than even that.

[Dov]

Usually with scopes you go to max power, point it to the sky or a white background and adjust the diopter until the reticle is clear. On an LPVO, keep it on 1x and point at a target at 25 yards that has some kind of horizontal reference where you can compare the image through the scope with the image in your other eye with both eyes open. Now you are looking for 2 things: a sharp reticle and a 1x image that matches what your naked eye sees at 25 yards. Quality LPVOs that are well executed let you have your cake and eat it too with these 2 factors. Know that you will always have a slightly magnified view on targets so close they are right in front of you due to where the objective is in relation to your eye, but at that close of a distance it doesn't matter. Don't judge an LPVO's 1x by what you see by looking at something extremely close to you. The "true 1x" effect should be present at around 5 yards and out, and on the Razor it's a bit closer than even that.

Thanks.

Now if someone would just make a chart guide for someone like me that doesn't have $$$$ to pick LPVO or inclination to spend weeks learning fine details of them, I usually just go with Leupold for most of my scope needs/wants as decent quality. Though I know they are not an Trijicon for tolerating abuse. Assuming Trijicon is near top for durability what would be something midway between Leupold and Trijicon for price, quality, & durable.

[Dov]

Another factor sometimes not always considered. I'm 48 with osteoarthritis in both knees and both shoulders. Moving fast in and out of awkward positions where a red dot would outperform a LPVO is not really a reality for me, although I'm working on it. If I'm not as mobile as my opponent then I need to be more accurate. You know those cool freaking videos with go-fast dudes tearing through a course with a carbine, dropping in and out of urban and rice paddy prone positions, shooting on the move at breakneck speed from every possible angle? Nobody is excited to film me doing those things. However, with a LPVO on 1x I can ready-up snap shoot really well, and if I get a stable position with some magnification I can send accurate rounds down range.

Just something to try if you haven't, both me and gf have gotten tremendous benefit from good physical therapists with pain issues and improvement in mobility.

Problems that were limiting both of us for years, made quality of life improvements for us though we are past the half century mark.

Taking some of the chronic pain both of us thought was just part of life everyday and turned it into maybe pain couple days every month or twop.

[Dov]

Another factor sometimes not always considered. I'm 48 with osteoarthritis in both knees and both shoulders. Moving fast in and out of awkward positions where a red dot would outperform a LPVO is not really a reality for me, although I'm working on it. If I'm not as mobile as my opponent then I need to be more accurate. You know those cool freaking videos with go-fast dudes tearing through a course with a carbine, dropping in and out of urban and rice paddy prone positions, shooting on the move at breakneck speed from every possible angle? Nobody is excited to film me doing those things. However, with a LPVO on 1x I can ready-up snap shoot really well, and if I get a stable position with some magnification I can send accurate rounds down range.

Thats more or less one of the points I was trying to make in my post #39 above where I quote and link BehindBlueI's, based on his data from his work as LEO key to winning Home Defense situations seems to be more like hunting from a blind than doing a dynamic entry.


3. For defense, vs LEO/Military ambushing the badguys ideally from behind cover/concealment is key to surviving/winning see BehindBlueI's excellent posts, so IMO the speed advantage of the Red Dot is not significant:

"stay put and wait vs charging in" https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....l=1#post925059
"Regardless of weapon type, those who acted from ambush and used what I term "speed, surprise, and ferocity of attack" almost always won. It's the #1 predictor of who will win, more than weapon type, more than number of defenders vs attackers, more than which side had the "better" weapons, etc." https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....l=1#post925127
How People Lost Random Encounter Gun Fights https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ter-Gun-Fights

[stomridertx]

Thanks.

Now if someone would just make a chart guide for someone like me that doesn't have $$$$ to pick LPVO or inclination to spend weeks learning fine details of them, I usually just go with Leupold for most of my scope needs/wants as decent quality. Though I know they are not an Trijicon for tolerating abuse. Assuming Trijicon is near top for durability what would be something midway between Leupold and Trijicon for price, quality, & durable.

It's very subjective and there is disagreement on whether you need daylight bright illumination, so it is a tough field to navigate for the first time. If you trust my opinion, I can simplify it quite a bit. If the thought of spending over $1000 on an LPVO is uncomfortable, get either the Steiner P4XI 1-4 or the Vortex Viper PST 1-6 and be done with it for a while. Put it in a quality mount and consider going higher like a 1.7 or 1.93, as the 1x experience improves with these heights.
If you find that you have found a concept that you love and shoot a lot, then make a plan to invest in yourself and get one of the Tier 1 LPVOs later on. Life is too short. At that point you will know which optic you want and will have an easier time navigating the landscape.

[Dov]

It's very subjective and there is disagreement on whether you need daylight bright illumination, so it is a tough field to navigate for the first time. If you trust my opinion, I can simplify it quite a bit. If the thought of spending over $1000 on an LPVO is uncomfortable, get either the Steiner P4XI 1-4 or the Vortex Viper PST 1-6 and be done with it for a while. Put it in a quality mount and consider going higher like a 1.7 or 1.93, as the 1x experience improves with these heights.
If you find that you have found a concept that you love and shoot a lot, then make a plan to invest in yourself and get one of the Tier 1 LPVOs later on. Life is too short. At that point you will know which optic you want and will have an easier time navigating the landscape.

Thanks!

That's type of answer I was looking for, much appreciated!

[Dov]

For anyone looking for more info on the two scopes stomridertx suggested:

Steiner P4Xi 1-4x24 P3TR Reticle by C_Does
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTMlhgErsC8

Vortex PST II 1-6x24 by C_Does
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91QXSwtcXgo

The Brutality matches C_Does mentions in the Steiner review, note he lives in NY so stuck with 10 round mags and uses Ruger American Ranch in 5.56 that takes AR mags

Woodland Brutality 2022

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4M6r8Ilt8E

"Double taps"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viPeN9SnCqo

C_Does Woodland Brutality 2023

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmOr3Mce4pg

[Mntneer357]

I'm very sympathetic to your argument for all legal home defense. But, I only have one rifle, and my vision sucks, so an LPVO gives me a lot more options for occasional 400-600yd range trips just for fun, and even just precise shooting at my local range. As someone else said, it's not my main concern, but I don't mind having the magnification in my back pocket for more extreme slim possibilities either.

I'm kinda in the same boat. I'm getting older, and my vision is wretched. Now, I have the beginnings of astigmatism to add to the fun. Pistol optics (in my case, a HoloSun 507C), with my glasses, give me a blurry *thing* to help my aim. Lovely. With my contacts, I can discern an actual dot and shoot half decently.

My only rifle, currently, is a long-range steel plate slayer. (Tikka CTR in 6.5 Manbun, with a Vortex Viper PST Get II, FFP MOA). Wonderful rifle, with which I've made repeatable hits out to 1,300 yards (thanks to the wonderful humans at BangSteel.com ) However, she's not suitable for home defense.

I'm trying to scrape together funds for a Polish AK and Robski speaks very well of various LPVOs. I live in an urban environment, but when I get the cash together, I believe some kind of true 1x LPVO will complete this little project. Like Noah, I like having things in my back pocket, just in case (and an aiming system I can see with glasses OR contacts).

Cheers!

[stomridertx]

For anyone looking for more info on the two scopes stomridertx suggested:

Steiner P4Xi 1-4x24 P3TR Reticle by C_Does
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTMlhgErsC8

Vortex PST II 1-6x24 by C_Does
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91QXSwtcXgo

The Brutality matches C_Does mentions in the Steiner review, note he lives in NY so stuck with 10 round mags and uses Ruger American Ranch in 5.56 that takes AR mags

Woodland Brutality 2022

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4M6r8Ilt8E

"Double taps"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viPeN9SnCqo

C_Does Woodland Brutality 2023

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmOr3Mce4pg

Include this one in your playlist, he does a great job at optic reviews and you'll see why we gush over the Razor when there are so many good mid-tier LPVOs now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWEpHudA_sw

[mmc45414]

It's very subjective and there is disagreement on whether you need daylight bright illumination, so it is a tough field to navigate for the first time. If you trust my opinion, I can simplify it quite a bit. If the thought of spending over $1000 on an LPVO is uncomfortable, get either the Steiner P4XI 1-4 or the Vortex Viper PST 1-6 and be done with it for a while. Put it in a quality mount and consider going higher like a 1.7 or 1.93, as the 1x experience improves with these heights.
If you find that you have found a concept that you love and shoot a lot, then make a plan to invest in yourself and get one of the Tier 1 LPVOs later on. Life is too short. At that point you will know which optic you want and will have an easier time navigating the landscape.

This is great advice, you can do a Proof of Concept without spending a buttload, and decide to optimize it later, or not.


Last Sunday we shot this stage that started with shooting that poorly contrasted target from back by the stacked barrels at about 90yds, where 2-3x was pretty helpful, but also included shooting three larger (painted) targets through one of the flat slots on a VTAC barrier at about 60yds. I went back to 1x and held the rifle almost flat and stuck my face somewhere behind the scope and it was no problem. This is with just a low-end Strike Eagle, nothing fancy.

This might be a broad generalization, but I am inclined to have more confidence in a lower cost scope than a lower cost RDO.
Obviously things can go wrong with a scope, but they are mechanical things, with an electronic optic you are relying on mechanical and electrical things to continue working.

And IMO you can probably test the water with something even lower end. In my case I got the Vortex Strike Eagle because I didn't even want a LPVO, and was just being forced into it by the typical target arrays that were being setup at the local multi-gun matches I wanted to continue to enjoy. I was buying one as a necessary evil, that I would only use at matches once or twice a month. A couple years later I am changing over my "primary" rifle (that one sits in the safe in a semi-ready state while I go shoot the "game" gun...) because I like it so well.

I need another scope to the 350 Legend upper I am building, and I plan to get a Brownells MPO 1-6 (https://www.brownells.com/optics/scopes/rifle-scopes/match-precision-optic-mpo-1-6x24mm-sfp-illuminated-rifle-scope/?sku=080001426). With something you will know if you love it or hate it, and I think buying a low end scope is probably going to be functional, there is not so much to go wrong with them.

[Wake27]

There needs to be some level of caution with the idea of proofing based on a cheap scope. Unlike current red dots, there’s a huge difference between the budget and top brands, if you’re testing the entire optic category based on a $250 optic, you might be very disappointed. The cheapest ones I’ve tried are the PST Gen II and P4Xi and I agree that those are probably the best starting point. The new PA Nova might be an option as well but I’d be very cautious to venture outside of those, at least without a thorough understanding of the specific scope’s known weaknesses. I just saw this on another forum.

[Noah]

I highly recommend the Primary Arms Nova with the Razor/Viper style SFP red dot bright fiber wire reticle for any attempt at a "starter" LPVO. It compares favorably with the Viper for the price. I've owned both and C_does on YT has a nice comparison

[mmc45414]

I wanted to state that I have enjoyed this thread.
Also, reference back to the original post:


I am unable to conjure up a scenario where a citizen would have a real *need* for an LPVO (mounted on an AR) for defensive use. To say it more clearly, I can't really gin up a scenario where a citizen can legitimately engage a crook much past 25 yards and probably not at all past 50 yards. ...

So, I'm asking and earnest and honest question here. What advantage does an LPVO provide over a red dot when mounted on a home defense AR?

What I am thinking the Hive Mind is saying is that the LVPO can defend your home, and has an extended bag of tricks, without giving up much, if anything, to a RDO.

[stomridertx]

I highly recommend the Primary Arms Nova with the Razor/Viper style SFP red dot bright fiber wire reticle for any attempt at a "starter" LPVO. It compares favorably with the Viper for the price. I've owned both and C_does on YT has a nice comparison

The PA Nova would be good for solving where you stand on needing daylight bright illumination or not as it definitely has that. I bought one for my 15-22 with the intention of having a training analog to my Razor, but the scope was way better than I thought and my wife claimed it for her AR.
However, (I'm always THAT guy)
In my opinion the lack of an off position between illumination settings is a non-starter for an LPVO that I might use long term. Their new auto-live battery cap may mitigate that, but it wouldn't for me as having off positions between settings is on my must-have feature list. The glass is also borderline for me, you need good glass when limited to 6X. I think PA will have their real contenders when they bring this reticle to GLX and PLX models. Sub $500 LPVOs are a slippery slope, I've bought enough of them over the years to buy 2 Razors.
There are other contenders to the Razor that are less expensive and to me look to fit the bill: the Trijicon Credo HX, Tract Toric, Delta Stryker HD, and maybe the Athlon Cronus. I love Athlon scopes more than Vortex but none of their Helos through Cronus LPVOs have reticles I like. Had I known about the Tract Toric when I was buying the Razor, it may have very well ended up in my cart instead.

[stomridertx]

I wanted to state that I have enjoyed this thread.
Also, reference back to the original post:



What I am thinking the Hive Mind is saying is that the LVPO can defend your home, and has an extended bag of tricks, without giving up much, if anything, to a RDO.
Pretty much, and with an offset RDS the close-range performance gap closes completely. The compromises are weight and cost. Good scopes are always going to be on the heavier side because low dispersion glass is heavy. Scopes also require robust and precise mounts which weigh more and cost more than RDS mounts. Cost is way less for the RDS if you go with Holosun, Sig, or Vortex dots. If the buy once, cry once philosophy is in effect and only Aimpoint and Eotech is considered, the cost gap is narrower but still favors the RDS.

[jeep45238]

I have never let the battery die in my two home defense ARs. I have sticky notes next to them in their safes that remind me to replace the battery.


I'm not that organized - but I do have a recurring purchase/subscription through Amazon for the batteries in my optics that happens every 3 months. Swap batteries when they show up (change it to 6mo, 1yr, etc. as you see fit).

[Dov]

I'm not that organized - but I do have a recurring purchase/subscription through Amazon for the batteries in my optics that happens every 3 months. Swap batteries when they show up (change it to 6mo, 1yr, etc. as you see fit).

I think Mas, maybe others, have suggested just changing batteries in all critical safety equipment every Daylight Savings weekend.

Good idea to include Smoke Detectors, Carbon monoxide detectors, etc.

[cosermann]

My do-all rifle has an LPVO and a RDS on it. Doesn't have to be either/or. Can be both/and. :)

[TWR]

I like the idea of an MPVO with an offset red dot better than a LPVO and a red dot.

The LPVO with a daylight bright reticle should be all we need. Fight or in my case, hunt up close on low power and if needed, crank it up for distant targets. If I'm gonna have to run an off set red dot, give me more X's and a bigger objective lense in the scope.

[stomridertx]

I like the idea of an MPVO with an offset red dot better than a LPVO and a red dot.

The LPVO with a daylight bright reticle should be all we need. Fight or in my case, hunt up close on low power and if needed, crank it up for distant targets. If I'm gonna have to run an off set red dot, give me more X's and a bigger objective lense in the scope.

The MPVO with offest dot is an awesome concept as well and one I'm about to explore on my 16 inch BCM AR. I don't see a reason to forgo an offset red dot on even the best LPVO, it weighs as much as backup iron sights. After running the concept for a good while, I'm putting offset dots on any scoped AR no matter what kind of scope it is, even if I have to put it on the scope tube because of a too long turret.
I'm shopping for MPVOs and it's almost a mythical category. Keep in mind that I'm only looking at tactical scopes with Mil reticles. You'll have the same sticker shock you would with LPVOs if you want a light weight and 2-10ish range with a smaller objective. The best in the category are the Nightforce NXS 2.5-10x42 and the Trijicon Credo 2-10x36. The PA GLX 2.5-10 is reviewed well, but for me that chevron can go F itself. Past that, the Vortex PST II 2-10 is as heavy as a 3-15, so might as well go bigger. Swampfox has some in this category but they are too heavy and lack features. One heavier MPVO on the budget side that I think is a good contender is the Athlon Helos Gen2 2-12x42 FFP. Athlon really knows how to get their Chinese factories to put out decent glass and good turrets. The SWFA SSHD 3-9 is the original MPVO, and I think there is a better chance of buying front row seats to a Taylor Swift concert than finding one in stock at this point. The bottom line is, expect a 23-30 oz scope in this category unless you want to pony up well over $1000 for the Nightforce NXS, which weighs 20.5 oz.
I'll probably land either on the Trijicon Credo, or go too big for the concept with an Athlon Ares BTR Gen2 2.5-15x50.

[TWR]

I’m actually looking for another 3-9 super chicken to put on my SPR. I have one on a Kimber Montana in 22-250AI that I’ve shot to 1000 yards. The only thing lacking in that scope is parallax adjustment. I literally swapped one out for a fixed 10x on the range and my hits went up. But for a 5.56 gun and realistic distances, it’s not as big a deal if you pay attention.

But back to LPVO’s I still believe the Credo HX 1-6 with hunter holds that I have on one gun should be as quick as an off set red dot, maybe even a red dot only gun. My plan is to compare times with my 1-6 and my Aimpoint. I’m not as concerned with having the scope on 6X and a target showing up at 10 yards because I’m usually at lower or lowest power anyway when I hunt. So I’m not looking at this as a gaming thing and I possibly would or will see the light if I venture down that road.

Pretty closed minded of me but dang it, that’s why I “upgraded” from my 1-4 Accupower’s, to get a scope and a red dot all in one.

[jeep45238]

I think Mas, maybe others, have suggested just changing batteries in all critical safety equipment every Daylight Savings weekend.

Good idea to include Smoke Detectors, Carbon monoxide detectors, etc.

Setting it up so batteries are automatically due to arrive at your desired interval sort of accomplishes this without effort past the initial purchase.