Low recoil 8 pellet vs low recoil 9 pellet OO buck felt recoil?

[Dov]

Because of age/health issues that magnify impact of recoil I have been looking closely at even slight differences in recoil that I didn't even think about when younger and pain free.

Looking for experience of people that have used low recoil 8 pellet loads and if they could perceive any difference in recoil from low recoil 9 pellet? And in what specific guns. I know that will be subjective.

I know in my gf's 20 gauge 11-87 nether of us can tell difference between 2.75" buck/slugs vs 3" buck/slugs even when one of us loads mag with mix so shooter doesn't know which shot is which load.

I suspect we would feel the difference between those if it was a pump 20 gauge instead of a semi auto.

I am working on essentially zero recoil carbines like 5.56, 357 mag, etc as covered https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?57983-243-vs-7-62x39-300-Blk-30-30-Etc-in-manual-repeater but have a strong personal bias in favor of shotgun so still trying to find shotgun solution that can work for current me.

I have a 12 gauge 11-87 that will be getting Vent rib barrel and testing with low recoil 9 pellet and slug based on NH Shooter's excellent setup https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37084-1187P

Even with standard slug barrel my 12 gauge 11-87 cycles low recoil Federal 9 pellet OO smoothly with dozen or so rounds I tested it with but the action cycles so slowly I would not trust it with standard slug barrel for low recoil ammo for defensive use.

[fatdog]

Same concerns, what I have discovered in testing a half dozen different "low recoil" rounds is that my perception of felt recoil depends more on the brand/who loaded it than it does 8 Vs 9 pellet. I am still experimenting but the published velocities all say 1200 fps, but two brands of the same dram load of powder and the same rated velocity can have very different perceived recoil. I am attributing that to maybe the difference in the powder they used.

I don't know the answer and there is a general scarcity on line of the 8 pellet low recoil stuff lately. The remington stuff is here (https://www.jgsales.com/product/12ga-remington-2-75-00-buckshot-ultimate-defense-low-recoil-8-pellet-5rd-box-20711/) If you figure out which brand with whatever pellet count is really low recoil please post it and I will follow this thread.

The lowest recoil stuff I have on hand is 15+ year old Hornaday TAP 8 pellet and it is distinctly more pleasant to shoot, bonus is it has the good tight pattern wad cups, but when I bought a few boxes of their current version of the same round last year the newer stuff is distinctly hotter. My supply of the old blue shell case 8 pellet TAP stuff is very low and going to run out at some point and I have not identified the perfect replacement. The recent "low recoil" 9 pellet buck made by Federal and Remington has been a big disappointment in the recoil department.

As for running it in autos, only my anceint Browning A5 with the friction ring in the rear position has ever run any of this low recoil stuff reliably. It has similar felt recoil to an 870 anyway, in my perception so only benefit is speed.

[Dov]

Related Hornady 8 pellet at nominal 1100 fps https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?58712-A-look-at-Hornady-Versatite-8-pellet-00B

[Dov]

From discussions in this thread https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?58696-Loads-to-Fill-in-for-Remington-00-and-Slugger sounds like the Low Recoil Hornady TAP load is lightest recoiling OO buck load around.

[jh9]

Taking the felt recoil angle a step further...

If there isn't any known difference in terminal effectiveness between 8 and 9 pellet #00: what about 5 pellet (https://www.sgammo.com/product/410-gauge-ammo/250-round-case-410-gauge-3-inch-5-pellet-000-buck-winchester-super-x-ammo-xb4)? Are 5 more-or-less simultaneous hits adequate to get the same rifle-like, tear-vs-stretch wounding seen with 8 or 9 pellet buckshot?

Don't know much about shotguns and even less about anything other than 12-gauge. I do know people discuss 20 gauge being a problem because any reduction in recoil is made up by the guns generally being lighter weight so felt recoil winds up being a wash. Is the same generally true for .410?

Again, specifically for people where 12 gauge at any recoil level is a no-go. Is the recoil in a .410 noticeably less? Is terminal effectiveness still there? Even if that means not getting the new fangled wads and all the patterning issues that brings.

[Dov]

410 is anemic, you might as well use a pistol caliber carbine.

[diananike]

A 3” .410 buckshot load with 5x 000 buckshot pellets is hardly anemic. They also pattern quite well.
The recoil is very manageable even out of my M6 survival rifle or Mossberg Shockwave both of which weigh about 4.5lbs. No need for the recoil straps or rubber grip sleeves necessary on the 12 gauge shockwave models.
Most .410 loads are nothing to write home about but I think the 3” 000 loads are the exception.

[Dov]

I'll admit that 5 Pellet OOO buck load doesn't sound anemic wasn't aware of it, best load I knew of for 410 pressed into defense was 1/4 oz (~110) grain Brenneke at nominal 1755 fps. Which is roughly on par but lesser than 30 carbine.

Have you used that OOO buck load on any varmints or any test media?

Remington 410 bore 3" 5 pellet OOO buck load (~340 grains if actually using OOO size pellets but reviews I have seen for 12 gauge mini shotshells leads me to suspect they are using something slightly smaller & lighter) is listed as 1125 fps from I assume a normal length bird barrel.

A 410 with either of those loads would certainly be better than nothing. And if its the best choice someone has or can use I certainly understand that.

There were couple years in my early college days where all I had for guns were my late grandfathers single shot 22 rimfire and long term loan of an Uncle's 410 Remington pump.

I kept the 410 loaded with largest lead birdshot I could find and planned on aiming for hollow of the throat to compensate for low penetration. There wasn't any buckshot for 410 in those days and even finding slugs for 410 was difficult. At least I never found slugs when I had the money to spare for them as poor working college student.

Personally I'd prefer a 357 magnum levergun to 410 pump, ideally a trapper 16" barrel model. Though I would take a reliable 9mm carbine over 410 personally as well. YMMV

But if your looking for Shockwave size platform Mare's Leg compares well except for weight

https://www.mossberg.com/590-shockwave-410-bore.html

https://www.henryusa.com/handguns/big-boy-mares-leg-side-gate/


But with the Mare's Leg 357 with 12.9" barrel your getting 1900+ FPS with 125 JHP or 1600+ fps with 158 JHP http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html

[diananike]

I havent done any gel testing with the 000 .410 loads. Theres lots of tests on YouTube though. Usually what happens in gel is the pellets flatten out from being compressed together in the bore so they swell to a larger diameter closer to the .410 bore diameter then the original .36. If they strike at very close range the pellets will column together through the gel and penetrate to different distances based on their que in the stack and varying resistance.
This means that penetration varies significantly for each pellet usually between about 15” and 20+”.
At longer ranges the pellets will spread out and have a more conventional shotgun wound.
I find when patterning the 000 loads they will clump together very tightly till about 10yds. Often just a tight cluster. After 10yds they will start to string out vertically. Still a very effective pattern out to 20yds though.
I would still prefer a 12 gauge but there is something attractive about the slim size and weight of something like the 410 shockwave.
Also my wife can shoot it easily unlike my 12 gauge Tac14 or shockwave which has quite a bit of recoil even with a soft load like Remington 8 pellet 00 buck.
We usually carry these guns for bear defense when camping or hiking.
She still prefers her 30-30 youth model but its way bigger and heavier and less convenient. The 410 shockwave can be slung along a backpack in a small tripod case and noone even knows you have a gun with you if you run into other hikers.

[jh9]

Also my wife can shoot it easily unlike my 12 gauge Tac14 or shockwave which has quite a bit of recoil even with a soft load like Remington 8 pellet 00 buck.


That's where my thought process for this is at. Also the "old man gauge" concept discussed previously.

It's unfortunate that there isn't more concrete info on this. Youtube is typically clear gel and shenanigans. It would be useful to have a clear picture of the actual effectiveness and realistic limitations for something like the 5-pellet #000 .410 loads. Not as a general replacement for the 12 but specifically for people whose only other option is typically a .38 or 9mm.

edit: The patterning info is helpful. I was thinking more about the terminal ballistics.

[SCCY Marshal]

...It's unfortunate that there isn't more concrete info on this. Youtube is typically clear gel and shenanigans...edit: The patterning info is helpful. I was thinking more about the terminal ballistics.

One of my bosses has cleanly killed deer and bear with 410 000 before he quit hunting. Some other locals keep a 410 and some assorted ammo by the back door and have never failed to deal with pets from woodchuck to coyote. My better half's old bedside 410 did well (24"+ so halved to over the 12" minimum of gel) in water jugs with 3 or 5 pellet loads. The + at the end of the penetration was the norm but how much it represents is buried in an archived notebook I'm not fishing for. That plus clear gel and shenanigans leaves me with little need to see a "real" gel test. Someone is roughly getting a cylinder dump of something between 32 S&W Long and 32 H&R Magnum when hit by a 000 buck load. In almost every shotgun I've seen the stuff patterned in, even the Flite Control fans would be happy to 10 yards or more.

Going back to controllability, a buddy's gun enthusiast daughter has been wheelchair bound and partially bedridden between hospital stays for the last couple years. Her 410 mini-Shockwave patterns well to 10+ yards, she won't be fighting outside the house to lengthen the range, can physically handle the gun and recoil from her various real life positions, and gladly does dry work with it even when confined to the bed. She has a shotgun as she insists on always owning, keeps it handy around the place, and her dad buys more buck whenever she runs low so she doesn't need to be precious with it on range trips as health allows. Her lesser half works nights and everyone involved appreciates the little shotty on top of her carry 22 WMR snub. My recoil and muzzle blast averse wife liked even a flyweight 410 enough to do quality bead sight work using the buck and Brenneke slugs out to 25 yards. Anything being a bother in the direct line of sight of our house at the time was in range for an airing of grievances.

[diananike]

Really only Brenneke 410 slugs need apply.
The other name brand slugs Ive seen gel tested get something in the order of 6-8” of penetration. Once the thin lead fragments the pieces are too small to get any significant penetration.
A 12 gauge foster slug will fragment sometimes too but the pieces are big enough to still keep trucking.
I still prefer 000 buck to 410 slugs. I think it penetrates deeply enough and causes more tissue damage compared to a single projectile.

[Dov]

Really only Brenneke 410 slugs need apply.
The other name brand slugs Ive seen gel tested get something in the order of 6-8” of penetration. Once the thin lead fragments the pieces are too small to get any significant penetration.
A 12 gauge foster slug will fragment sometimes too but the pieces are big enough to still keep trucking.
I still prefer 000 buck to 410 slugs. I think it penetrates deeply enough and causes more tissue damage compared to a single projectile.

Would be interesting if LuckyGunner or someone would test the 410 Brenneke & OOO loads.

Comparing them side by side with Federal 12 gauge Mini Shells would be interesting as well, we know how standard and normal low recoil buck and slugs perform from 12 gauge.

6 Pellet OO Split pellet (designed to fragment, not really fan wish they did standard OO or No 1 Buck) at claimed 1245 fps
https://www.federalpremium.com/shotshell/premium-personal-defense/personal-defense-shotshell-force-x2-shorty/11-PD129FX2+00.html

1 oz Slug at claimed 1200 fps

https://www.federalpremium.com/shotshell/federal-target/shorty-shotshell/11-SH129+RS.html

They also have a No 4 Buck mini shell but I am not fan of No 4 buck.

[diananike]

My Shockwave has a defender tactical insert that allows it to shoot mini shells at the same time as normal 12 gauge loads.
The Federal Force X2 loads don’t reliably hit the 12” gel penetration I would want. The #4 buck ones are right on the verge of acceptable penetration. I would say acceptable for self defence from people indoors but wouldnt be my choice for carrying in the woods.

I was hoping my Shockwave would pattern the #4 buck minis as well as Rhetts from Demonstrated Concepts. But it spreads way too much for me to use them for anything more serious then a raccoon. Rhetts keeps them all unbelievably tight from his particular shockwave. Every barrel is its own snowflake.

Like a lot of people I would at least try the 00 buck 1.75” Federal load If it wasnt the split force x2 pellets and it patterned well. That would be a serious contender over my go to Remington 8 pellet 00 2.75” load.
8 shells in the tube with super low recoil and fast follow up shots would make a handy little scattergun out of a Shockwave.

[awp_101]

Since .410s have been brought up, The Old Man is asking me about this Winchester PDX1 (https://www.winchester.com/Products/Ammunition/Shotshell/Defender/S410PDX1). I have...doubts about it but I told him I'd ask about it.

[diananike]

I like the defense disks in that load but dont trust the BBs to do much of anything except pepper the perp with shallow wounds.
The only time lead BBs can get to the 12” gel minimum is when they still form a column at touching distances. After that they are just a waste of payload you could invest in another disk or piece of buckshot.

[Dov]

Since .410s have been brought up, The Old Man is asking me about this Winchester PDX1 (https://www.winchester.com/Products/Ammunition/Shotshell/Defender/S410PDX1). I have...doubts about it but I told him I'd ask about it.

https://www.nrawomen.com/content/do-410-bore-shotguns-make-sense-for-home-defense/


https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/handgun/410-critical-defense-2-1-2#!/

[diananike]

I tested the Critical Defence for patterns in my shockwave.
The buckshot pellets patterned ok but the ftx bullet keyholes and spins up and deviates quickly from the main pattern.
I think it was designed for handguns that use a rifled barrel.
If it stabilized in a smoothbore I’d be ok with it but my M6 and shockwave are a no go.

[Dov]

Really only Brenneke 410 slugs need apply.
The other name brand slugs Ive seen gel tested get something in the order of 6-8” of penetration. Once the thin lead fragments the pieces are too small to get any significant penetration.
A 12 gauge foster slug will fragment sometimes too but the pieces are big enough to still keep trucking.
I still prefer 000 buck to 410 slugs. I think it penetrates deeply enough and causes more tissue damage compared to a single projectile.

If you have more patterning data to share on the 410 3" OOO loads I'm interested in hearing/seeing it.

If Crimson Trace made laser sight like this https://www.crimsontrace.com/products/laser-sights/lasersaddle/ls-250g-lasersaddle-green-laser-sight-for-mossberg-12-20-gauge-shotguns/01-7820-1.html that worked for Mossberg 410 I'd probably really consider that paired with the 5 pellet OOO buck load as something for certain people to try that are elderly and/or physically limited that aren't really gun people looking for home defense weapon.

[Dov]

That's where my thought process for this is at. Also the "old man gauge" concept discussed previously.

It's unfortunate that there isn't more concrete info on this. Youtube is typically clear gel and shenanigans. It would be useful to have a clear picture of the actual effectiveness and realistic limitations for something like the 5-pellet #000 .410 loads. Not as a general replacement for the 12 but specifically for people whose only other option is typically a .38 or 9mm.

edit: The patterning info is helpful. I was thinking more about the terminal ballistics.

Definitely agree for people that can't or won't handle 12/20 gauge or AR, seems like it might be an adequate long arm that would be real step up from any practical handgun and more price and social friendly than many pistol caliber carbines.

I have tentatively suggested semi auto 22 rimfire rifles to some people in past, based on Chuck Haggard's comments about them and homicide investigations and the ease of use + affordability of them, when nothing more ideal was practical.

I will definitely try to budget for a 410 shotgun for people to try based on conversation here, personally I'd still prefer 357 levergun but IMHO shotgun manual of arms easier for more average people in my area, because I live in shotgun/handgun only deer zone it is what most hunters know.

And like you said, this isn't a replacement for 12 gauge, or IMO 20 gauge or 5.56, but with the 5 Pellet OOO buck load the 410 would be a step up in performance over any of the handguns I would suggest, and improvement over 22 rimfire rifles for reliability and probably performance.

[diananike]

If you have more patterning data to share on the 410 3" OOO loads I'm interested in hearing/seeing it.

If Crimson Trace made laser sight like this https://www.crimsontrace.com/products/laser-sights/lasersaddle/ls-250g-lasersaddle-green-laser-sight-for-mossberg-12-20-gauge-shotguns/01-7820-1.html that worked for Mossberg 410 I'd probably really consider that paired with the 5 pellet OOO buck load as something for certain people to try that are elderly and/or physically limited that aren't really gun people looking for home defense weapon.

Ive tried Winchester, Herters and Federal 3” 5 pellet 000 buck loads.
The federal version is copper plated buck while the others are plain lead.
They all seem to pattern quite similarly. One big hole out to about 5yds.
By 7yds the pellets start to disperse horizontally and vertically and open up into a bit more of a pattern usually no more then about 3”x3” often better.
By 10 yds the pellets start to string vertically and look a lot like the pattern I showed previously.
By 15yds the pellets usually have probounced stringing vertically. About a 6” spread up and down, maybe only a couple of inches wide.
20yds I start to have trouble keeping them all on a 8.5x11” sheet. If I’m using the load my gun likes it might manage. My M6 survival rifle likes the Winchester variety and will keep a 6” vertical spread out at 20yds. While my shockwave prefers the Federal it will spread them over most of the printer paper at 20. Every barrel is its own snowflake. I think the M6 has an edge with its full choke vs the cylinder of the Mossberg.
Stay away from the Aguila 2.5” 00 4 pellet. It wont shoot worth a damn in either of my .410s.

[diananike]

Definitely agree for people that can't or won't handle 12/20 gauge or AR, seems like it might be an adequate long arm that would be real step up from any practical handgun and more price and social friendly than many pistol caliber carbines.

I have tentatively suggested semi auto 22 rimfire rifles to some people in past, based on Chuck Haggard's comments about them and homicide investigations and the ease of use + affordability of them, when nothing more ideal was practical.

I will definitely try to budget for a 410 shotgun for people to try based on conversation here, personally I'd still prefer 357 levergun but IMHO shotgun manual of arms easier for more average people in my area, because I live in shotgun/handgun only deer zone it is what most hunters know.

And like you said, this isn't a replacement for 12 gauge, or IMO 20 gauge or 5.56, but with the 5 Pellet OOO buck load the 410 would be a step up in performance over any of the handguns I would suggest, and improvement over 22 rimfire rifles for reliability and probably performance.

I like lever guns too and shoot my .357 Marlin quite a bit. And so does my wife who prefers the Marlin Youth .30-30 over just about anything else.
But there’s something really attractive about a .410 like the shockwave. Its way lighter and way shorter and I think its easier to use. Loading gates can be a bear, and the external hammer isnt as intuitive a safety as the tang mount on a Mossberg.
Obviously you dont have the same range but within the limitations of a campsite at night, or a bear in your cooler, or a dude down your hallway the rifle accuracy just isn’t necessary.
Also a shockwave costs about half as much as a lever action.
If only .410 shells were more available lately. That lack if ammo is the only thing causing me hesitation in recommending them.

I also do prefer my 12 gauge Shockwave model for my own use. It has a streamlight forend, Holosun 403, and a recoil strap. It is a far more versatile rig then the .410 model, ive shot many grouse with it out to 25yds and itll stack slugs out at 50. A lot more firepower but you pay in weight, bulk and recoil. I used the TAC14 for quite a while but shoot left handed so the Mossberg won out.111423

[awp_101]

https://www.nrawomen.com/content/do-410-bore-shotguns-make-sense-for-home-defense/


https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/handgun/410-critical-defense-2-1-2#!/


I tested the Critical Defence for patterns in my shockwave.
The buckshot pellets patterned ok but the ftx bullet keyholes and spins up and deviates quickly from the main pattern.
I think it was designed for handguns that use a rifled barrel.
If it stabilized in a smoothbore I’d be ok with it but my M6 and shockwave are a no go.

Thanks, I sent him the links and he found some of the Hornady in stock locally. He told me he took the .410 along on his last range trip but I don’t know if that was before or after finding the Hornady. The furthest shot he’d have in his house would be roughly 10 yards so it should be ok.

We also had to have “the talk” about birdshot and aiming a shotgun. The more we talk about defensive shooting, the more Fudd-lore I hear that I never thought I’d hear from him…

[diananike]

Thanks, I sent him the links and he found some of the Hornady in stock locally. He told me he took the .410 along on his last range trip but I don’t know if that was before or after finding the Hornady. The furthest shot he’d have in his house would be roughly 10 yards so it should be ok.

We also had to have “the talk” about birdshot and aiming a shotgun. The more we talk about defensive shooting, the more Fudd-lore I hear that I never thought I’d hear from him…

If I had a wishlist for .410 ammunition manufacturers
Winchester would do a 3” load packed to the max with just defense disks. Like 6 or 7 of them.
Someone would do a 3” load with plated .380 balls. Even 4 of those in a payload would be pretty effective.

[Dov]

Thanks, I sent him the links and he found some of the Hornady in stock locally. He told me he took the .410 along on his last range trip but I don’t know if that was before or after finding the Hornady. The furthest shot he’d have in his house would be roughly 10 yards so it should be ok.

We also had to have “the talk” about birdshot and aiming a shotgun. The more we talk about defensive shooting, the more Fudd-lore I hear that I never thought I’d hear from him…

Good luck, it looks like the OOO loads would best bet of the 410 options, I'm still looking for performance information on the 410 Brenneke Slug that might be okay as well if it doesn't fragment badly like the 410 Foster tend to.

[SCCY Marshal]

...I'm still looking for performance information on the 410 Brenneke Slug that might be okay as well if it doesn't fragment badly like the 410 Foster tend to.

While not "real" gel, the following clear gel and meat target tests indicate that the 3" Brenneke would probably do fine:

Clear - https://yewtu.be/watch?v=E0-uzAkf0aA

Meat - https://yewtu.be/watch?v=LQcot7HrWuU

It's been at least a decade since my wife last dumped a few of them into water and wet phone book/catalog but they dug deep there, as well. Some locals have had no problems with the effectively 40-something caliber hard cast wadcutters on deer when launched from the 3" shells. That all said, I've never seen the 2 1/2" Brenneke in stock locally be it big box or small shop so no idea how those work.

[Dov]

While not "real" gel, the following clear gel and meat target tests indicate that the 3" Brenneke would probably do fine:

Clear - https://yewtu.be/watch?v=E0-uzAkf0aA

Meat - https://yewtu.be/watch?v=LQcot7HrWuU

It's been at least a decade since my wife last dumped a few of them into water and wet phone book/catalog but they dug deep there, as well. Some locals have had no problems with the effectively 40-something caliber hard cast wadcutters on deer when launched from the 3" shells. That all said, I've never seen the 2 1/2" Brenneke in stock locally be it big box or small shop so no idea how those work.

That guy also Chronoed, dissected, measured, weighed, and Clear Gel tested Rem 5 pellet 3" 410 OOO buck load.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pETiI1NKyeo

[Chuck Whitlock]

This has been a very interesting discussion. I've been contemplating getting a 590S Shockwave, and had not given a .410 any thought at all. Color me intrigued.

[Jamie]

This has been a very interesting discussion. I've been contemplating getting a 590S Shockwave, and had not given a .410 any thought at all. Color me intrigued.

I have a 12 g Shockwave and just received some 8 pellet Flitecontrol Fed to pattern in it.

Now I'm thinking maybe I need one in .410 as I slide into my 70's.

Really interesting info and observations in this thread. Thank you all.

You guys, P-F in general, are definitely an influence in my my life. Still trying to figure out if that's "good", or "bad" ;)

[fatdog]

Happy with my Tac 14 for what it is, but the 410 is on my list now. Overall weight unloaded of 4.24 lbs also makes it a "different thing" in my mind. I am also in the Medicare cadre now causing me to think about such things as recoil more and more. I too had never considered it before this discussion.

[diananike]

A couple of issues I have with the .410 models
Firstly theres no choke so birdshot spreads too rapidly to be useful past about 15yds. This really limits your ability to hunt birds or small game. The 12 gauge models also have no choke but theres enough pellets in a 12 gauge load to still take birds out to 25yds with no issues.
Secondly its next to impossible to find .410 birdshot for sale locally around here the last couple of years. Also a box of birdshot .410 costs about 1$ a shot lately in Canada while 12 gauge can still be had for half that.
If .410 ammunition became more available and cheaper and I got my shockwave threaded for a good full choke it would go a long way to making the platform more viable.

[jh9]

This has been a very interesting discussion. I've been contemplating getting a 590S Shockwave, and had not given a .410 any thought at all. Color me intrigued.

The .410 diversion is mostly my fault. I wasn't sure if it was a good-idea-fairy thing or something with actual practical value for some users. It's starting to sound like the latter. I'd still like to hear someone like DocGKR weigh in on the 5-pellet #000 load for anti-personnel use, but it sounds like other people have had good results on game up to deer so it's probably ok?


A couple of issues I have with the .410 models
Firstly theres no choke so birdshot spreads too rapidly to be useful past about 15yds. This really limits your ability to hunt birds or small game. The 12 gauge models also have no choke but theres enough pellets in a 12 gauge load to still take birds out to 25yds with no issues.

I honestly hadn't even thought about it for traditional shotgun-like activities (i.e. hunting). I saw the 5-pellet #000 buckshot and immediately thought of it as a one-trick pony, but that one trick has a lot of utility for some people.

Lights and lasers that fit the 12-gauge don't fit the .410 was mentioned, I think? It looks like it's drilled and tapped, though. Are the optics mounts also specific to the 12-gauge version?

[Chuck Whitlock]

The .410 diversion is mostly my fault. I wasn't sure if it was a good-idea-fairy thing or something with actual practical value for some users. It's starting to sound like the latter. I'd still like to hear someone like DocGKR weigh in on the 5-pellet #000 load for anti-personnel use, but it sounds like other people have had good results on game up to deer so it's probably ok?

I honestly hadn't even thought about it for traditional shotgun-like activities (i.e. hunting). I saw the 5-pellet #000 buckshot and immediately thought of it as a one-trick pony, but that one trick has a lot of utility for some people.

I for one appreciate the diversion. I am mostly interested in a Shockwave-type weapon, particularly paired with the mini-shells, but those offerings seem to just fall short of the mark. If only Federal would dump the X2 gimmicky crap. I'd be totally interested in a 1.75" 1Buck load!

But 5x 000 v. 8x 00 pellets is kinda intriguing, particularly in that weapon envelope. We are also talking about 775-850 fps v. 1200-ish fps as well.

[diananike]

I for one appreciate the diversion. I am mostly interested in a Shockwave-type weapon, particularly paired with the mini-shells, but those offerings seem to just fall short of the mark. If only Federal would dump the X2 gimmicky crap. I'd be totally interested in a 1.75" 1Buck load!

But 5x 000 v. 8x 00 pellets is kinda intriguing, particularly in that weapon envelope. We are also talking about 775-850 fps v. 1200-ish fps as well.

When they quote 775-850 fps for 410 loads on the box they are usually referencing a Judge handgun barrel. The 000 loads are usually rated 1100fps from a shotgun barrel and will get over 1000fps out of a riot gun length barrel.

[Dov]

This has been a very interesting discussion. I've been contemplating getting a 590S Shockwave, and had not given a .410 any thought at all. Color me intrigued.

Yeah, you can see on my first response about 410 I didn't have high opinion of it for defensive use, but I can see reasons to use it for some people/situations with the 5 pellet OOO load.

Though me being me, I wish Brenneke or someone would make a good 410 slug load with same weight and MV as the 5 Pellet load, a 325 to 350 grain slug at ~1100 FPS would be big step up from service pistol or even a PCC on per shot basis.

But a 5 pellet OOO load is 5/8 of 12 gauge low recoil OOO load so it should certainly suffice for home defense.

Specially since it groups so tight out to 5-10 yards.

[diananike]

Ive often wondered why a .410 can do 11/16 oz of shot at 1100 fps but cant do a 1/2 oz slug at 1300 fps.
1/4 oz seems pretty weak even at 1700fps considering its a long gun.

[SCCY Marshal]

My guess is slug stability in flight. Also people who dig the current effectively frangible slugs for coyote and down around the farm. With Brenneke already making a decent slug and most of the market wanting turkey loads in 410, there is little incentive to really fart around getting a sturdier chonk of a slug load to work.

What I think would be a better focus of hope would be for Cheddite to start cranking out soft Brenneke-knockoff slugs in 410 like they do in 12 and 20. Inexpensive but still digging deeper than foster slugs while loaded in decent hulls. Further derailing this thread, I'd like them to do same in 28 gauge.

[Dov]

My guess is slug stability in flight. Also people who dig the current effectively frangible slugs for coyote and down around the farm. With Brenneke already making a decent slug and most of the market wanting turkey loads in 410, there is little incentive to really fart around getting a sturdier chonk of a slug load to work.

What I think would be a better focus of hope would be for Cheddite to start cranking out soft Brenneke-knockoff slugs in 410 like they do in 12 and 20. Inexpensive but still digging deeper than foster slugs while loaded in decent hulls. Further derailing this thread, I'd like them to do same in 28 gauge.

If I understood your earlier post correctly your wife has use 3" Brenneke on deer in past? What did you see for performance?

[SCCY Marshal]

Not my wife, some locals have and I've not gotten more than the fact that they were happy with them. My boss has tagged bear and deer with buckshot and would look at me like a special child if I pushed for details. He's real straightforward and meat in the freezer is the extent of the detail he cares about.

[Hambo]

About 12ga. I shot Federal LE 8 and 9 pellet, and PD 13200 9 pellet, and there is no difference in recoil.

[diananike]

Going back to 12 gauge and ignoring the .410 rabbit hole.
There is a big difference in recoil between my 2 favourite 12 gauge low recoil loads.
The Federal 9 pellet flite-control low recoil has a fair bit more recoil them Remington 8 pellet managed recoil loads.

Ive heard it explained why the flite-control kicks harder and its more then just the addition of a 9th pellet. Suffice it to say that the flite control loadings generally have more felt recoil then a conventional 9 pellet reduced recoil loading.

If youre recoil shy the Remington 8 pellet managed recoil loadings are a great choice. They also pattern very well in my guns and love a modified choke which can negatively effect flite control patterns.

[Dov]

via Demonstrated Concepts youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpF7bMIW3_M

Fiocchi Defense Dynamics 12 Gauge 2-3/4" #1 Buckshot 9 Pellets real low recoil load, I'd trust this a lot more than the Federal minishell No 4 buckshot load for terminal performance.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/102326523


PS whats the trick for embedding youtubes on the forum?

[Bigghoss]

via Demonstrated Concepts youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpF7bMIW3_M

Fiocchi Defense Dynamics 12 Gauge 2-3/4" #1 Buckshot 9 Pellets real low recoil load, I'd trust this a lot more than the Federal minishell No 4 buckshot load for terminal performance.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/102326523


PS whats the trick for embedding youtubes on the forum?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpF7bMIW3_M


Above the box where you type the text there's three rows of buttons. In the second row more to the right end there's a little button that looks like a couple frames of old school movie reel tape. Click that and a box comes up where you can enter the URL of the video and it will embed it for you. Somewhere once upon a time someone did a whole write up with screen shots that explains it way better but I'm not tech savy enough to do all that and I don't know where to look for that post.

I was about to place an order for some cheapo buckshot from somewhere else but this stuff was the same price so I ordered 250 rounds.

[Jamie]

via Demonstrated Concepts youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpF7bMIW3_M

Fiocchi Defense Dynamics 12 Gauge 2-3/4" #1 Buckshot 9 Pellets real low recoil load, I'd trust this a lot more than the Federal minishell No 4 buckshot load for terminal performance.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/102326523


PS whats the trick for embedding youtubes on the forum?

Thank you for posting this. I don't know how I missed the vid on YT.

I picked up a 250 rd case of this for $0.60/rd in November from PSA. Really interesting to see the deep dive and thinking from Rhett. Makes me even happier I picked some up. :)

It patterns very similarly in my Shockwave. Definitely soft shooting buckshot.

[Dov]

Thank you for posting this. I don't know how I missed the vid on YT.

I picked up a 250 rd case of this for $0.60/rd in November from PSA. Really interesting to see the deep dive and thinking from Rhett. Makes me even happier I picked some up. :)

It patterns very similarly in my Shockwave. Definitely soft shooting buckshot.

No 1 buck is my preferred for home defense, though I'm okay with No 2 in 20 gauge, this gives a low recoil No 1 Buckshot option for those like me that can't handle full recoil 12 gauge anymore.

It's like Xmas in January :cool:

[Rick R]

I got a chance to shoot a few of the 12ga Federal 8 pellet 00 shells that I bought due to this thread. I was at the range with some Fudd friends so it was only a few rounds in my admittedly heavy 21” M870 with a 3 round mag extension. Holy Crap! There is no recoil! My competition 20 ga O/U with skeet loads kicks more, the Federal 8 pellet loads were more like the 20ga with Briley .410 tubes installed. It’s hard to believe they’ll operate a semiauto.

The 870 patterns Hornady Critical Duty 00 better than Federal normally but these were quite adequate, 6/8 pellets on a 8.5”x11” sheet of paper stapled over the -0 of an IDPA target at 25 yards with the two strays barely off the paper.
A second round at ten yards on a 4”x5” piece of paper stapled to the target’s head basically turned it into a donut.

My friends had never seen buckshot patterned before since it’s not a legal hunting round here. The remaining Federal shells and the Hornady’s in the side saddle went toward their education.

[gato naranja]

I was at the range with some Fudd friends so it was only a few rounds in my admittedly heavy 21” M870 with a 3 round mag extension. Holy Crap! There is no recoil! My competition 20 ga O/U with skeet loads kicks more, the Federal 8 pellet loads were more like the 20ga with Briley .410 tubes installed. It’s hard to believe they’ll operate a semiauto.

With shotguns, I tend to be in line with the late sheriff of the county I grew up in - he was a good guy - regarding his big Plymouth Fury patrol cars: "There's nothing like more pounds and a longer wheelbase to keep things steady."

[Dov]

I got a chance to shoot a few of the 12ga Federal 8 pellet 00 shells that I bought due to this thread. I was at the range with some Fudd friends so it was only a few rounds in my admittedly heavy 21” M870 with a 3 round mag extension. Holy Crap! There is no recoil! My competition 20 ga O/U with skeet loads kicks more, the Federal 8 pellet loads were more like the 20ga with Briley .410 tubes installed. It’s hard to believe they’ll operate a semiauto.

The 870 patterns Hornady Critical Duty 00 better than Federal normally but these were quite adequate, 6/8 pellets on a 8.5”x11” sheet of paper stapled over the -0 of an IDPA target at 25 yards with the two strays barely off the paper.
A second round at ten yards on a 4”x5” piece of paper stapled to the target’s head basically turned it into a donut.

My friends had never seen buckshot patterned before since it’s not a legal hunting round here. The remaining Federal shells and the Hornady’s in the side saddle went toward their education.

I don't think the 8 pellet will operate semi auto reliably without shenanigans. See NHshooter post https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37084-1187P

[Dov]

This post https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37084-1187P&p=894937&viewfull=1#post894937 he talks bit more about it. He talks about low recoil 9 pellet and slugs,

Somewhere he detailed what he did to get 8 pellet ot run, but can't seem to find that bookmark at movement.

[SwampDweller]

Is there much advantage to having a 9 pellet load to 8 pellet? Low recoil or not. I notice the Hornady Critical Defense 00 buck load is 8 pellet. Does 9 pellet offer a notable increase in performance?

[TCinVA]

Is there much advantage to having a 9 pellet load to 8 pellet? Low recoil or not. I notice the Hornady Critical Defense 00 buck load is 8 pellet. Does 9 pellet offer a notable increase in performance?

Not really.

Our goal is to immediately stop the threatening actions of the other guy. As in he's doing something that will kill us or someone we care about in the next couple of seconds and we need to guarantee he will not be capable of continuing that action as quickly as possible.

A key aspect to understand, here, is that what we are doing does not depend on his will. We are going to render him physically unable to continue trying to maim or kill us. If he dies of sepsis three weeks after he's dealt us a traumatic brain injury, our goal of self defense has not been achieved.

For that specific purpose, there's not going to be any appreciable difference in the performance of 8 pellets vs. 9 pellets vs. 12 pellets, etc.

Buckshot is effective because of a near simultaneous impact of multiple projectiles. When the pellets are close enough together to be hitting more or less the same relatively local pieces of tissue, it creates a synergistic effect. Elastic tissue becomes inelastic. Inelastic tissues are pulverized. Bones break more readily. Eventually the pellets spread out in tissue enough that the synergistic effect is lost...at which point the pellets acting individually punch holes in whatever tissues they hit.

On a shot delivered to the right spot in the chest at home defense distances, a pattern no bigger than your fist (often smaller) punches through the sternum and carries some of those bone fragments as the full pattern starts to carry through to the top chambers of the heart and the junction of the aorta. This is where that synergistic effect mentioned above is going to be at its strongest. From there the pellets will continue to spread and at least a few of them will likely end up lodging in the spine or into large nerve bundles that come off of the spine.

This will likely prove sufficiently distracting to the other party that the attack will cease regardless of whether or not the payload was 8 pellets or 9 pellets or 15 pellets.

Where you do see a difference between 8 and 9 pellet is in the size of the pattern. Most shotguns ("most" because there are always exceptions to the rule) will shoot a "flyer" with 9 pellet buckshot that isn't grouping with the rest of the pattern. With good buckshot that 9th pellet flyer is still sufficiently close that it isn't a concern for accountability at the distances we're most likely using a shotgun. Even so, I've seen some guns where that 9th pellet becomes a real concern, especially if they are using suboptimal sighting systems like beads.

A pellet in a guy's fat roll doesn't do anything to help guarantee he stops what he's doing. But it can make it more difficult to keep all our pellets on the only person that has earned a bullet in an environment heavily populated by people we don't want to shoot.

So while people think more pellets = more damage = better, in reality 8 pellet buckshot is already proving to be incredibly effective and more is just...more. Not better. Especially if it opens up the pattern enough where you lose the ability to keep all the pellets on dude who earned the shot.

For most guns inside 15 yards the difference in pattern size between an 8 and 9 pellet flite-control wad (either from Hornady or Federal) will be so minimal as to not be a concern. But you should test both in your gun and see which one it shoots better and make the determination based on the overall size and concentration of the pattern. Whichever one it shoots better, stick with that one.

If, God forbid, you have to actually use it to defend yourself or your family I promise that the dude forcing you to resort to lethal force won't know the difference between 8 pellets or 9 passing through his aortic arch and into his spine.

[Jamie]

Thank you TCinVA.
Excellent post and it should be required reading for anyone considering a shotgun for SD and defense of others.

I pattern every smoothbore I own at varying distances and with various loads and make note of such.

Shotguns are as unique as the individuals using them.

[SwampDweller]

Not really.

Our goal is to immediately stop the threatening actions of the other guy. As in he's doing something that will kill us or someone we care about in the next couple of seconds and we need to guarantee he will not be capable of continuing that action as quickly as possible.

A key aspect to understand, here, is that what we are doing does not depend on his will. We are going to render him physically unable to continue trying to maim or kill us. If he dies of sepsis three weeks after he's dealt us a traumatic brain injury, our goal of self defense has not been achieved.

For that specific purpose, there's not going to be any appreciable difference in the performance of 8 pellets vs. 9 pellets vs. 12 pellets, etc.

Buckshot is effective because of a near simultaneous impact of multiple projectiles. When the pellets are close enough together to be hitting more or less the same relatively local pieces of tissue, it creates a synergistic effect. Elastic tissue becomes inelastic. Inelastic tissues are pulverized. Bones break more readily. Eventually the pellets spread out in tissue enough that the synergistic effect is lost...at which point the pellets acting individually punch holes in whatever tissues they hit.

On a shot delivered to the right spot in the chest at home defense distances, a pattern no bigger than your fist (often smaller) punches through the sternum and carries some of those bone fragments as the full pattern starts to carry through to the top chambers of the heart and the junction of the aorta. This is where that synergistic effect mentioned above is going to be at its strongest. From there the pellets will continue to spread and at least a few of them will likely end up lodging in the spine or into large nerve bundles that come off of the spine.

This will likely prove sufficiently distracting to the other party that the attack will cease regardless of whether or not the payload was 8 pellets or 9 pellets or 15 pellets.

Where you do see a difference between 8 and 9 pellet is in the size of the pattern. Most shotguns ("most" because there are always exceptions to the rule) will shoot a "flyer" with 9 pellet buckshot that isn't grouping with the rest of the pattern. With good buckshot that 9th pellet flyer is still sufficiently close that it isn't a concern for accountability at the distances we're most likely using a shotgun. Even so, I've seen some guns where that 9th pellet becomes a real concern, especially if they are using suboptimal sighting systems like beads.

A pellet in a guy's fat roll doesn't do anything to help guarantee he stops what he's doing. But it can make it more difficult to keep all our pellets on the only person that has earned a bullet in an environment heavily populated by people we don't want to shoot.

So while people think more pellets = more damage = better, in reality 8 pellet buckshot is already proving to be incredibly effective and more is just...more. Not better. Especially if it opens up the pattern enough where you lose the ability to keep all the pellets on dude who earned the shot.

For most guns inside 15 yards the difference in pattern size between an 8 and 9 pellet flite-control wad (either from Hornady or Federal) will be so minimal as to not be a concern. But you should test both in your gun and see which one it shoots better and make the determination based on the overall size and concentration of the pattern. Whichever one it shoots better, stick with that one.

If, God forbid, you have to actually use it to defend yourself or your family I promise that the dude forcing you to resort to lethal force won't know the difference between 8 pellets or 9 passing through his aortic arch and into his spine.

I think for now I'm going to keep a couple of boxes of the Hornady Critical Defense 8 pellet 12ga for home defense use, since there's some sitting on the shelf for sale at my work. Thank you for the invaluable information.

[gato naranja]

Thank you TCinVA.
Excellent post and it should be required reading for anyone considering a shotgun for SD and defense of others.

I pattern every smoothbore I own at varying distances and with various loads and make note of such.

Shotguns are as unique as the individuals using them.

Yep. TCinVA provided an excellent and succinct post.

I am not the shotgunner I should be and I am finding that as I age, things slide around on various spectrums. What shotgun or load seemed a clear ideal at one time creeps into a gray area.

Always learning.