Current Threats You Should Be Avoiding-Gorillafritz

[Joe in PNG]

Current Threats You Should Be Avoiding (https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/current-threats-you-should-be-avoiding)


My biggest fear is that one of my readers will stumble into one of these protests or be in the area where one of the many mass shootings pops off. I worry that my readers will follow their training and draw their firearm to deal with a potential lethal force threat they perceive. That’s a losing proposition.

You off-duty cops and legally armed citizens have exactly one role in this situation: Make sure you and your family/friends don’t get shot. That’s it. End of lesson.

If I were to hear shots nearby, I would immediately get down on the ground or behind cover. I would assess where the shots are coming from and plan a path of retreat in the opposite direction, ideally moving between large pieces of cover as I make my escape. That’s it. There is absolutely nothing else you should do. Don’t draw your gun and attempt to shoot the “bad guy” here.




And you don’t have to “be a good witness” either. If these jackasses get arrested, do you want them getting you and your family’s names, addresses, places of employment, and phone numbers? As soon as their court appointed attorney files for discovery, all of that information goes directly to them. Now you’ve become an active player in their game. And in that game, they don’t care about the same rules you do.

Don’t involve yourself in this stupidity. It will only harm you in the long term. If you intervene, you will either get shot by the thugs, shot by the cops, sued by the person you shoot, or arrested. If that doesn’t happen and you make a statement to the cops you take the chance of being hunted down by the arrested party’s crew at a future date before trial.

Say it again with me: “Not your people, not your problem.”

Tam had some commentary on the article at her spot (https://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2023/11/your-mission-and-you-should-choose-to.html):


But also there's more of an edge to the altercations of late. Oh, sure, we used to be able to count on Sumdood getting affronted in the crowd outside The Vogue once every couple years and trying to settle his grudge by whipping out his popper and getting to popping, but those were very infrequent.

The frequency is increasing, though, and since Dracos, 'stendos, and switches are fashion accessories amongst the wannabe banger crowd now, there tend to be a lot more "to whom it may concern" projectiles in the air.

[Totem Polar]

I’m with Greg.

[paherne]

I loves me some Ellifritz, but that dumbshit went to Burning Man on a first date to get some poon. God love him. He's right, but he's also a moron.

[Warped Mindless]

I loves me some Ellifritz, but that dumbshit went to Burning Man on a first date to get some poon. God love him. He's right, but he's also a moron.

Some people go through life never understanding risk and on occasion it bites them in the ass. Other people, such as Greg, understands the risk and goes and live life anyways instead of being afraid. They just take sensible precautions and uses awareness to mitigate the risk.

[blues]

It's a sad commentary on the current state of affairs, (which has been the current state of affairs for some time)...but it is very good, practical and honest advice.

(I hope I take it myself in order to overcome an innate tendency to want to be "helpful" in such circumstances.)

[Archer1440]

He’s not wrong, but there was a time in American culture when a message like this would have been anathema to right thinking people. Another Country.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Pro social behavior is complex but sometimes people make it simple - of course, I couldn't live with myself, what is the country coming to, etc.?

Lots of factors go into the decision to help, some cognitive and slow, some more emotionally reactive. A good readable review is:

Dovidio, J. F., Piliavin, J. A., Schroeder, D. A., & Penner, L., (2006). The social psychology of pro-social behavior. Mahwah, NJ, : Lawrence Erlbaum Associates Publishers.

Here's a slide from lectures in my intro teaching days:

110984

Also, the speed of having to make a decision influences the effects of each factor. Slow risk avoidance, fast jumping in.

As far as I can't live with myself, there are good therapies for such. You can live with yourself.

[BehindBlueI's]

Remember Eli stopping a mass shooting at the Greenwood Mall in Indiana? Some hillbilly kid with a ragged-ass Glock killed a emotionally deranged rifleman mowing down people in a food court? I do.

I'm sure I'm not alone here in that I've endangered myself for stupider reasons than saving innocent lives. I do, perhaps, have the advantage of knowing *exactly* how I react in an active shooter incident and it sure as fuck wasn't to leave. You do what you can sleep with at night, but for me you can take all that advice and shove it up your ass.


Pro social behavior is complex but sometimes people make it simple - of course, I couldn't live with myself, what is the country coming to, etc.?


It absolutely is that simple. I can, and do, live just fine with shooting some asshole who needed shot because he was shooting people who didn't need to be shot. I didn't need therapy or to work anything out. I just needed some time to readjust to the mundane non-adrenaline filled 'normal life'. I am, to this day, carrying a burden about children in distress I was unable to help. I don't think I'm particularly unique in this regard.

[BehindBlueI's]

Side bar:

If the general advice is self-preservation above all, how do you in good faith expect people to be soldiers, cops, firemen, etc? There's a non-zero chance you'll get killed/maimed/radically fucked up for no personal gain so that some stranger may do better. That stranger may be a turd.

Keep pounding 'me first no matter what' and keep bitching about why society is the way it is. Keep wondering why you've raised a generation of pussies while pounding how dangerous everything is if you try to do the right thing. For God and Country? Fuck that, it's old and busted. God is dead, obviously. Your mortal life and wellbeing is the most important thing because you're just that fucking special. Why is everyone such a self centered twat? I'm not the only one seeing the disconnect here right?

[blues]

Just when I was trying to put that (prevailing) side of my personality out to pasture...

[Jay585]

BehindBlueI's

I agree with your points, and at the same time I agree with Ellifritz's

As far as Ellifritz's point - as a family man my family comes first. If I get involved in something that reduces the chances of my ability to care for my family, I don't want to be involved. Once they're grown up and moved on, my importance as dad is lessened.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Not going to argue with your decisions. I'm pointing out what enters many decisions.

1. The military, police, etc. response is clearly in the principle of Evaluating Group Survival. That overrides personal survival.
2. While one person may not suffer from psychological trauma, studies show about 30% may. To each is own.

I know from some FOF event AARs and scenario survey that when faced with a save a woman being beaten in a garage, about 50% of highly skilled people (defined as civilians, not law) just observed rather than intervene.

One factor to explain Eli and others (like the TX churck interventions, Colorado church) is the immediacy of the action. As I mentioned when faced with the event in front of them, folks are more prone to act. Greg is talking about situations where there is a gap between you and truly immediate action - giving the person time to think about escape as more viable.

To each his own. I'm just evaluating what goes on in such, from a process perspective.

[Paul Blackburn]

It’s good advice for mob type situations.

[Noah]

It seems to me that Greg is talking about a very specific type of mass shooting involving indiscriminate retribution, often gang related, and BBI is talking about the more well known type of mass shooting as seen in malls, schools, etc?

[Totem Polar]

I didn’t read that Greg was advocating for never acting. I think he is advocating for being very sure of the situation that you are reacting to. The concept of being willing to take a stand against unmitigated evil in the form of, say, an active shooter, and being unwilling to get involved in deadly tribal/monkey dance shit are not mutually exclusive. It’s going to take real perception to know the difference in the fog of the decades to come. JMO, OMMV, etc.

[Totem Polar]

It seems to me that Greg is talking about a very specific type of mass shooting involving indiscriminate retribution, often gang related, and BBI is talking about the more well known type of mass shooting as seen in malls, schools, etc?

Looks that way to me, yes. I’m just one guy on the ‘net, but I think they’re both right.

[GJM]

I see ambiguity as the problem. Middle of Times Square, take cover. In a situation where your friends, neighbors and coworkers are being harmed, take action.

[AMC]

Side bar:

If the general advice is self-preservation above all, how do you in good faith expect people to be soldiers, cops, firemen, etc? There's a non-zero chance you'll get killed/maimed/radically fucked up for no personal gain so that some stranger may do better. That stranger may be a turd.

Keep pounding 'me first no matter what' and keep bitching about why society is the way it is. Keep wondering why you've raised a generation of pussies while pounding how dangerous everything is if you try to do the right thing. For God and Country? Fuck that, it's old and busted. God is dead, obviously. Your mortal life and wellbeing is the most important thing because you're just that fucking special. Why is everyone such a self centered twat? I'm not the only one seeing the disconnect here right?

Thank you. Beat me to it. While I totally understand the hesitancy most people have with engaging in these crazy times....where our so called justice system in many jurisdictions seems hell-bent on increasing crime and disorder, the widespread adoption of this advice leads literally to the end of civilization. You think assholes and crooks are hard to deal with? Wait till the barbarian hordes are pillaging the countryside. At this rate, on this trajectory, we're only a few years from that.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Coming from someone who got stranded in a mud hole out in the middle of BFE. I fail to see why anybody worships some of these self anointed experts in all topics they choose to write about.

[Tamara]

Remember Eli stopping a mass shooting at the Greenwood Mall in Indiana?

Greg’s post said absolutely nothing about mass shootings/active shooters, as even a cursory read-through would have revealed.

It was talking about dudes with beef shooting at other dudes with beef, maybe with said other dudes with beef returning fire. I fail to see how me jumping in as a third leg of a ballistic love triangle between Ice Dog and Ray-Ray is going to improve the situation for myself or society in general.

Then again, I tend to avoid places where alcohol-fueled dustups happen these days.

[Zincwarrior]

I am confused. The gyst of that in less angry language was what I was taught a decade ago in CHL class. :confused:


Make sure you and your family/friends don’t get shot. That’s it. End of lesson.
This, exactly. Running away (or my case waddling away) is your best option.

Also the Don't Do Stupid rules cited that ASP teachers are excellent for a whole lot of things, not just personal safety from violence. :)

[BillSWPA]

As others pointed out there is a big difference between an active shooter and a couple of rival gangs or rival drug dealers shooting at each other. In a situation where two people or two groups are shooting at each other, how am I supposed to determine which, if any, are the good guys? Third party situations are not always as they appear.

There is also a huge difference between an active shooting unfolding right in front of me and an active shooting unfolding well away from me in the local shopping mall. I would absolutely draw and shoot with a shooting unfolding directly in front of me, preferably while shoving my family towards cover and creating distance between me and them while I seek cover.

If they see that I have family with me, is the shooter going to try to shoot one of them to hinder my ability to defend against the shooter?

If I run towards the shooting occurring elsewhere, I do not know if it is an active shooter or a shootout between rival gangs. I do not know how many people are involved or how they are armed. I do know that helping people evacuate the immediate area, perhaps while positioning myself to cover their evacuation, removes a bunch of potential victims. If I can communicate with 911 in the process, I can let them know the location of the evacuation point so that they can concentrate their response on the likely location of the shooting.

If I go hunting for the threat, I need to avoid becoming exactly what the police are seeking: a man with a gun. Police response time in my area is about 5-10 min, and perhaps less for an active shooter or depending on where they are. How many people will the real shooter kill while the police are distracted ordering me to the ground and handcuffing me? Are they going to shoot me thinking I am the shooter?

If I investigate wit my gun holstered and concealed to avoid the above, I risk being behind the cure when I find the shooter.

My wife and I have discussed my helping third parties, and I have pointed out that doing so could change the trajectory of our entire family. She is okay with my helping in circumstances where there is a clear aggressor, a clear victim, and the likely harm to the victim is significant if I do not help.

[WobblyPossum]

It seems to me that Greg is talking about a very specific type of mass shooting involving indiscriminate retribution, often gang related, and BBI is talking about the more well known type of mass shooting as seen in malls, schools, etc?


I didn’t read that Greg was advocating for never acting. I think he is advocating for being very sure of the situation that you are reacting to. The concept of being willing to take a stand against unmitigated evil in the form of, say, an active shooter, and being unwilling to get involved in deadly tribal/monkey dance shit are not mutually exclusive. It’s going to take real perception to know the difference in the fog of the decades to come. JMO, OMMV, etc.

This is what I took from Greg’s post as well. I didn't understand him to be referring to what we think of as an active shooter, where someone is attempting to rapidly murder a group of people unrelated to any other kind of criminal activity. I’m with BBI in that if I’m present for that kind of active shooter, I don’t think I’d be able to live with myself if I didn’t try to intervene. There are worse things than dying out there and there are much worse ways to die than while trying to save a bunch of innocent people. Granted, my first priority is my loved ones so I’ll be getting them to safety first, but I’m going back afterwards. For the situations Greg is discussing, which fit the media definition of an active shooter but not what we think of an active shooter, I’m with him. I’m not jumping into the middle of a gunfight between gang members off duty. I’m going to get my people and myself the hell out of the area. If someone wants to stand between us and the exit, things change.

[FNFAN]

“And you don’t have to “be a good witness” either. If these jackasses get arrested, do you want them getting you and your family’s names, addresses, places of employment, and phone numbers? As soon as their court appointed attorney files for discovery, all of that information goes directly to them. Now you’ve become an active player in their game. And in that game, they don’t care about the same rules you do.”

If everyone adopts this attitude we might just as well close up shop on our justice system. Getting past the hurdles of defunding police, constraints on aggressive enforcement, bail “reform” and the ultraLeft funding of prosecutors is one thing. Without witnesses willing to testify and fulfill what used to be considered the “societal contract” of coming forward to give evidence against criminals, “society” and “community” are just quaint, archaic concepts. Sad to hear someone I had considered a pretty heads-up guy espousing this concept.

[BehindBlueI's]

Greg’s post said absolutely nothing about mass shootings/active shooters, as even a cursory read-through would have revealed.


Ah, so tell me how I misread this during my cursory read through:



My prediction is that these protests will continue to devolve and become more violent as the conflict between Israel and HAMAS continues. We might also start seeing pro-Israel counter protests as well. When these groups clash, you don’t want to be caught in the crossfire.

My biggest fear is that one of my readers will stumble into one of these protests or be in the area where one of the many mass shootings pops off. I worry that my readers will follow their training and draw their firearm to deal with a potential lethal force threat they perceive. That’s a losing proposition.

You off-duty cops and legally armed citizens have exactly one role in this situation: Make sure you and your family/friends don’t get shot. That’s it. End of lesson.

If somebody is mowing down Jews, fuck it, not my problem because:
Say it again with me: “Not your people, not your problem.” Right? Because it's just young thugs fighting it out or something?


And you don’t have to “be a good witness” either. If these jackasses get arrested, do you want them getting you and your family’s names, addresses, places of employment, and phone numbers? As soon as their court appointed attorney files for discovery, all of that information goes directly to them. Now you’ve become an active player in their game. And in that game, they don’t care about the same rules you do.

Don't get involved. Don't try to help. Don't participate in the criminal justice system. You might get hurt.

This is generalized, not directed at any particular poster: This is bitch talk. If you're a bitch, that's ok, just own it. Don't talk your warrior/guardian bullshit. Next time you're in church, remind everyone what an idiot the dude nailed to the boards is because he sacrificed himself for assholes he never even met. Be consistent in your bitch mindset. Eli was a moron, maybe that was just some young thug gang banger and now his buddies know who he is. You think he had time to fully assess before acting? Go praise the Uvalde police. They did the right thing, by staying outside while children were murdered they lowered their personal risk. If nothing is more important than not getting shot at, that includes oaths and money. They were doing the smart thing.

Now, about the article, Greg knows fuck all about the shooting in Indy. Fuck. All. He has no idea the criminal histories, gang affiliations, motives, etc. He doesn't know if it's random or if one or more victims were targeted. "Possible gang association"? I'll pretend to wonder why that entered the conversation but I'm not going to play dumb. He knows what's in the media.

If this post is too harsh, so is a bunch of dead people you could have helped but were a bitch. Fuck your feelings.

[BehindBlueI's]

Thank you. Beat me to it. While I totally understand the hesitancy most people have with engaging in these crazy times....where our so called justice system in many jurisdictions seems hell-bent on increasing crime and disorder, the widespread adoption of this advice leads literally to the end of civilization. You think assholes and crooks are hard to deal with? Wait till the barbarian hordes are pillaging the countryside. At this rate, on this trajectory, we're only a few years from that.

This.

I will add that we've had an usually high number of police action shootings this year. Citizens are still shooting and killing bad guys at a 4:1 ratio over police actions so far this year.

[Robinson]

I just pray I have the courage and wisdom to do whatever needs doing if the time comes.

I mean, it has and I did -- but not with firearms involved. I'm not kidding when I say I pray about the above, and I'm not terribly religious.

[Hambo]

I think it's a lot more nuanced than anyone is making it out to be. Also, people tend to see potential shootings in the way they want them to unfold or end, versus the chaos of reality.

If blues and I meet up for lunch one day, no wives, and shit jumps off, we may/probably will do something dramatically different than if one of was out with our wives.

Just because I'd rather not engage with some monkey dance shootout, I might have to, because Mrs Hambo won't be doing any sprints for the rest of her life. We have no choice but to fort up somewhere and see what cards we get dealt.

Regarding Gorillafritz, while he sometimes has interesting stuff in his info dump, he has also done some really boneheaded shit that makes me question his judgment about anything.

[Coyotesfan97]

“And you don’t have to “be a good witness” either. If these jackasses get arrested, do you want them getting you and your family’s names, addresses, places of employment, and phone numbers? As soon as their court appointed attorney files for discovery, all of that information goes directly to them. Now you’ve become an active player in their game. And in that game, they don’t care about the same rules you do.”

If everyone adopts this attitude we might just as well close up shop on our justice system. Getting past the hurdles of defunding police, constraints on aggressive enforcement, bail “reform” and the ultraLeft funding of prosecutors is one thing. Without witnesses willing to testify and fulfill what used to be considered the “societal contract” of coming forward to give evidence against criminals, “society” and “community” are just quaint, archaic concepts. Sad to hear someone I had considered a pretty heads-up guy espousing this concept.

You put into words what I was pondering.

[DDTSGM]

Ah, so tell me how I misread this during my cursory read through:



If somebody is mowing down Jews, fuck it, not my problem because: Right? Because it's just young thugs fighting it out or something?



Don't get involved. Don't try to help. Don't participate in the criminal justice system. You might get hurt.

This is generalized, not directed at any particular poster: This is bitch talk. If you're a bitch, that's ok, just own it. Don't talk your warrior/guardian bullshit. Next time you're in church, remind everyone what an idiot the dude nailed to the boards is because he sacrificed himself for assholes he never even met. Be consistent in your bitch mindset. Eli was a moron, maybe that was just some young thug gang banger and now his buddies know who he is. You think he had time to fully assess before acting? Go praise the Uvalde police. They did the right thing, by staying outside while children were murdered they lowered their personal risk. If nothing is more important than not getting shot at, that includes oaths and money. They were doing the smart thing.

Now, about the article, Greg knows fuck all about the shooting in Indy. Fuck. All. He has no idea the criminal histories, gang affiliations, motives, etc. He doesn't know if it's random or if one or more victims were targeted. "Possible gang association"? I'll pretend to wonder why that entered the conversation but I'm not going to play dumb. He knows what's in the media.

If this post is too harsh, so is a bunch of dead people you could have helped but were a bitch. Fuck your feelings.

I'm glad you said what you said. Obviously this is a hot button with you, as it should be if you are a moral, principled person.

In a discussion on another forum regarding the 'I'm going home safe at the end of my shift, no matter what' I posted about thical and moral responsibilities when you take a job that you should understand involves the assumption of risk. One of the forum cool guys responded something along the lines of 'good you can die knowing you've fulfilled your moral and ethical duties, I'll be going home.'

I'm not generally an emotional fanboi, but at times when reading discussions like this, I'd like to say that you ought to ask yourself 'what would Gordon or Shughart do?' There's your moral compass.

[Totem Polar]

It might be useful to separate our expectations of sworn, indemnified LE relative to regular Joes, while this discussion progresses.

There’s not another contributing member on this forum that I respect more than BBI, period. At the same time, if I’m downtown at (to name just one hypothetical example) a concert event with a few of my students, and some sort of internecine rivalry kicks off out front with shots going both ways, I don’t think that herding everyone out the back entrance and away from the crowd, as opposed to charging into the fray, makes me—or anyone else in a similar situation, with kids, parents, unarmed friends, or whatever in their party—a “bitch.”

I will leave the cop ethic to those that have earned the right to debate it, which is not me. JMO.

[DDTSGM]

deleted - server was taking so long to respond I added a sentence - as seen below.

[DDTSGM]

It might be useful to separate our expectations of sworn, indemnified LE relative to regular Joes, while this discussion progresses.

There’s not another contributing member on this forum that I respect more than BBI, period. At the same time, if I’m downtown at (to name just one hypothetical example) a concert event with a few of my students, and some sort of internecine rivalry kicks off out front with shots going both ways, I don’t think that herding everyone out the back entrance and away from the crowd, as opposed to charging into the fray, makes me—or anyone else in a similar situation, with kids, parents, unarmed friends, or whatever in their party—a “bitch.”

I will leave the cop ethic to those that have earned the right to debate it, which is not me. JMO.

Obviously this was a very hot button for BBI, language could be excused?

If you are with your family or a group of people who you are in charge of, they are job one, if they are at risk, your job is to get them to safety. I don't believe anyone has said otherwise - I'm not smart enough to go back and reread w/o losing what I've written thus far.

What BBI was commenting on, and I agree, is the idea that if it isn't immediately impacting you you're stupid to get involved, don't be a good witness, etc.

There are certain things that are the responsibilities of good citizens. Helping when you can is one of those things.

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm glad you said what you said. Obviously this is a hot button with you, as it should be if you are a moral, principled person.

In a discussion on another forum regarding the 'I'm going home safe at the end of my shift, no matter what' I posted about thical and moral responsibilities when you take a job that you should understand involves the assumption of risk. One of the forum cool guys responded something along the lines of 'good you can die knowing you've fulfilled your moral and ethical duties, I'll be going home.'


I just said in a PM "not that some cops, firemen, and soldiers aren't bitches, too."

[Totem Polar]

Obviously this was a very hot button for BBI, language could be excused?

Absofuckinglutely. BBI has long earned the right to his opinions here, more so than most. Not that anyone needs my input on that part. P-F would be non-functional if everyone agreed with 100 percent of all posts.





There are certain things that are the responsibilities of good citizens. Helping when you can is one of those things.

Again, agreed. I don’t think any of us are really all that far apart on all of this. That said, I am curious as to differing levels of care between those who’ve signed up to go in harms way vs those that contribute to society in other ways, if those differences exist. I’m also interested in a frank discussion of how to help when you can, and what it might look like when that changes to a situation where you really can’t be of much help.

I hope that makes sense, and I hope I’ve already made it clear to BBI here and elsewhere that he’s one of the posters I value most, on a forum where I take damn near everything posted under consideration.

[BehindBlueI's]

It might be useful to separate our expectations of sworn, indemnified LE relative to regular Joes, while this discussion progresses.

There’s not another contributing member on this forum that I respect more than BBI, period. At the same time, if I’m downtown at (to name just one hypothetical example) a concert event with a few of my students, and some sort of internecine rivalry kicks off out front with shots going both ways

Let's compare that to:


My prediction is that these protests will continue to devolve and become more violent as the conflict between Israel and HAMAS continues. We might also start seeing pro-Israel counter protests as well. When these groups clash, you don’t want to be caught in the crossfire.

My biggest fear is that one of my readers will stumble into one of these protests or be in the area where one of the many mass shootings pops off. I worry that my readers will follow their training and draw their firearm to deal with a potential lethal force threat they perceive. That’s a losing proposition.

You off-duty cops and legally armed citizens have exactly one role in this situation: Make sure you and your family/friends don’t get shot. That’s it. End of lesson.

I see a pretty clear difference in the two. If you don't know who the 'good guy' is, then the moral and ethically thing to do is not simply pick a side and wade in. But if you see some asshole firing into a protest, is that the same thing?

Let's take guns out of it. Free Palestine college kids with their signs thinking they are doing something that matters a hair in a bear's ass. Rented Uhaul terrorist starts squish-fest. Don't get involved, don't be a good witness, you may have to pay some price.


Obviously this was a very hot button for BBI, language could be excused?

If you are with your family or a group of people who you are in charge of, they are job one, if they are at risk, your job is to get them to safety. I don't believe anyone has said otherwise - I'm not smart enough to go back and reread w/o losing what I've written thus far.

What BBI was commenting on, and I agree, is the idea that if it isn't immediately impacting you you're stupid to get involved, don't be a good witness, etc.

There are certain things that are the responsibilities of good citizens. Helping when you can is one of those things.



Exactly. If you're there with your 3 y/o, you're not going to send him out into the great wide world on his own. But me first, don't help, I may get hurt or sued or have bad dreams...bitch mode.


It might be useful to separate our expectations of sworn, indemnified LE relative to regular Joes, while this discussion progresses.



As far as 'indemnified', I will only speak to my state and my experience. It is exceedingly rare and exceedingly difficult for a non-leo to be sued for a shooting that wasn't criminally charged. Cops get sued for farting sideways. You're better off than me in this regard at least regionally.

That said, I'm done with the discussion. I stand by what I've said and don't feel the need to expound on it further.

[BillSWPA]

If I recall correctly, the Indiana mall shooting unfolded in front of the gentleman who did the great work with the concealed carry handgun. He did not have to go hunting. He was able to assess based on what was happening in front of him. He saw that people were going to die if he did not act, even if he was not (yet) directly threatened. That is exactly the type of circumstance in which my wife has told me that she would rather I intervene even knowing that it could affect her and both of our kids if intervening goes badly.

If I am out with family, hear shots, and don't know what is happening, am I a bitch if I don't run towards the gunfire to try to sort out what happened, identify the bad guy, and shoot him every time? If people are running towards me saying there is an active shooter, that changes the situation again because now I have information.

I could leave my family behind assuming they are safe, run towards the gunfire, and learn after the fact that there were other shooters and my family, who I could have defended if I stayed with them, are now dead. Am I a bitch for making them my first priority, and ensuring that they get to safety before I do anything else?

I am fortunate to be a physically fit, reasonably well trained, not (yet) too badly impacted by age, and to be able to carry what I want. If I am carrying at least a 10 shot 9mm, I might make different decisions than a person carrying a pocket .380 because they absolutely, positively cannot afford to get caught with a gun in some NPE. Is the person who had to carry a tiny gun because they are unwilling to risk multiples of six figures in income over the time it will take them to replace their job a bitch?

We have people on this forum who in their prime would have been quite formidable, but are dealing with the effects of age which will inevitably get all of us. They might not be able to run as fast, and might not be carrying the best gun. Are they a bitch if they decide that they are not in a position to effectively intervene?

A police officer who signed up for the job, is probably carrying at least a full size handgun, is probably wearing soft body armor, and is probably in uniform and identifiable to other police officers is in a different position than a private citizen. They will not be a distraction to other responding police officers which will require time to deal with and potentially result in more lost lives.

Yes, in some situations, there is a moral obligation to intervene. We are given certain assets and abilities by God with the expectation that we use them to help others. We are all going to face God someday, and need to consider what we are and are not willing to have to explain when that time comes. That reality will greatly impact my decisions.

With all the variables in any situation, I am not going to be quick to judge the actions of anyone for the decisions they make in their individual circumstances and their individual fight (Uvalde being a notable exception). This is particularly true for a situation I have not yet faced.

[MickAK]

Exactly. If you're there with your 3 y/o, you're not going to send him out into the great wide world on his own. But me first, don't help, I may get hurt or sued or have bad dreams...bitch mode.


I grew up without a father. The hard part about that isn't poverty or lack of skills training or not having someone to care for me. The hard part is not having any idea where I came from. 'Daddy died trying to help people' or 'Daddy is in prison for trying to help people' would have been fine. I don't understand that reasoning when it gets brought up here. I think my sons would be better off growing up without a father than being brought up by someone who refuses to help in the situations described, which used to be called a coward.

It's possible I'm misunderstanding this comment and it refers to leaving him alone when I'm watching him. My 2.5 year old understands the command 'GO HIDE' well. Children are naturally good at it. I'm not sure what else I would do, cover my kid while other kids get shot?

[Joe Mac]

I cannot – and would not – say that I would not intervene in a matter in which I am not being personally attacked, because as an old colleague likes to say, "I know me...I've seen me do it." I have worked very hard over the past 30 years to develop this particular skill set. I know what I'm capable of under life-threatening stress, and I have the experience to recognize when intervention is warranted and feasible. If I cock it up, I deserve my fate.

[Paul Blackburn]

In the moment, the window to decide will be very short.

[Tamara]

Don't talk your warrior/guardian bullshit. Next time you're in church, remind everyone what an idiot the dude nailed to the boards is because he sacrificed himself for assholes he never even met.

Ell. Oh. Ell.

If you ever see me refer to myself as a "warrior" or "guardian", somebody's hacked my account. And I sure as hell ain't got no messiah complex.

If I'm in aisle twelve at Meijer's and I hear AK fire pop off up by the front doors, I'm headin' out the bitch door in the back. I'm there for diet soda and frozen pizzas, not to save the world with my six-shot snubbie.

[Hambo]

I just said in a PM "not that some cops, firemen, and soldiers aren't bitches, too."

Parkland and Uvalde are proof of that.

[Hambo]

If I'm in aisle twelve at Meijer's and I hear AK fire pop off up by the front doors, I'm headin' out the bitch door in the back. I'm there for diet soda and frozen pizzas, not to save the world with my six-shot snubbie.

If you grab the deli lady and a stock boy on the way out are you a bitch or a hero?

I've seen people perform badly on one incident and heroically on another. How do you go from bitch to hero, or hero to bitch? People are unpredictable. It wouldn't surprise me if you said you'll always choose escape, then when shit happens you do a snubby El Prez on three BGs, and have no explanation for why you did it.

Life isn't black and white.

[DC_P]

I loves me some Ellifritz, but that dumbshit went to Burning Man on a first date to get some poon. God love him. He's right, but he's also a moron.

He also went to some 3rd world country during the height of COVID. Then somehow maneuvered his way into another country so he could get on a flight back to the US because he didn't trust the medical treatment available where he was.

I enjoy his articles, but that's a kinda shitty thing to do. He knew the risks when he bought his ticket...

[blues]

I had this conversation on the phone with BBI yesterday evening. (He is a man I am happy to call my friend.)

Time makes a bitch of us all, to greater or lesser extent. I'm 71 now. Pretty fit and capable for a guy my age, no problems with my LEOSA quals and handling my firearms, but my cardio and strength, despite working out in my basement gym, are never going to be what they once were. That's just the way it is. You can cry about it or you can at least try to keep as much as you can.

I only have a couple of rules about intervention for myself...which I've come to over the years.

The first is that I will never pass an LEO on the road in need of assistance without at least offering help to the extent possible. I will not watch a brother or sister go down without trying to do something.

Second is that I will at all costs protect myself and my wife (or loved one) first...but if life and limb are on the line and I am in a position to take a clear shot to save an innocent's life, my intention is to take it. That will be wholly determined by circumstances...and despite thinking up scenarios, we know it's never going to be the way we imagined it. And I hope to God it never happens.

For the most part I simply try to avoid issues because as our friend Darryl Bolke liked to say, any conflict when carrying is an armed conflict.

[Totem Polar]

If you grab the deli lady and a stock boy on the way out are you a bitch or a hero?


Clearly, you’d be a bitchy hero.


Or, a heroic bitch… hard to say without a detailed, armchair AAR.

[Oldherkpilot]

Just when I was trying to put that (prevailing) side of my personality out to pasture...

So you guys are telling me that praying for the courage to go in and the skill to prevail is out of vogue now? Back to the drawing board.

[blues]

So you guys are telling me that praying for the courage to go in and the skill to prevail is out of vogue now? Back to the drawing board.

I summed up my own POV in my last post in the thread.

[11B10]

I loves me some Ellifritz, but that dumbshit went to Burning Man on a first date to get some poon. God love him. He's right, but he's also a moron.





I agree with you, vis-a-vis Mr. Ellifritz. His advice on 99.99999% of....everything is spot on. I've been a Patreon for years, but things like his trip to Burning Man are head scratchers. Greg's enthusiasm for international travel can sometimes lead to a "situation." Remember when he barely made it home with Covid?

[11B10]

I had this conversation on the phone with BBI yesterday evening. (He is a man I am happy to call my friend.)

Time makes a bitch of us all, to greater or lesser extent. I'm 71 now. Pretty fit and capable for a guy my age, no problems with my LEOSA quals and handling my firearms, but my cardio and strength, despite working out in my basement gym, are never going to be what they once were. That's just the way it is. You can cry about it or you can at least try to keep as much as you can.

I only have a couple of rules about intervention for myself...which I've come to over the years.

The first is that I will never pass an LEO on the road in need of assistance without at least offering help to the extent possible. I will not watch a brother or sister go down without trying to do something.

Second is that I will at all costs protect myself and my wife (or loved one) first...but if life and limb are on the line and I am in a position to take a clear shot to save an innocent's life, my intention is to take it. That will be wholly determined by circumstances...and despite thinking up scenarios, we know it's never going to be the way we imagined it. And I hope to God it never happens.

For the most part I simply try to avoid issues because as our friend Darryl Bolke liked to say, any conflict when carrying is an armed conflict.






blues - you've been entertaining us for years here on p-f and are beyond compare, IMHO. As the adage says: "there's no substitute for experience," you have it in abundance. What really sets you apart - again, IMHO, is your gift of transmitting/translating that into language we all understand.

Thanks, blues!

[blues]

blues - you've been entertaining us for years here on p-f and are beyond compare, IMHO. As the adage says: "there's no substitute for experience," you have it in abundance. What really sets you apart - again, IMHO, is your gift of transmitting/translating that into language we all understand.

Thanks, blues!


You are way too kind, my friend. I stand on the shoulders of others...and what little I have to give, I give freely. Thank you for making my day.

[NH Shooter]

The article has certainly generated a robust and passionate discussion here. For that reason alone, my thanks to the author for writing it.

I've come to the conclusion that any preconceived notion I might have on how I would react in such circumstances will likely be buried under the gravity of the moment. There are simply way too many variables that will feed into my fight-or-flight decision, and it will all unfold in a way I never could have imagined.

The best I can do is be as prepared as possible, in every possible way.

[feudist]

I don't quite get his point or the especially virulent replies ITT.
On the one hand he makes his(continually published) talking point about being adventurous and living life, which he has rather debatably asserted as unrestricted travel in the third world(or even known bad areas stateside) being a behavior to emulate.
Then in this post he conflates Active Murderers with idjits spraying cyclic fire at each other in crowds, then further conflates the taking of his date to those areas during dinner or shopping hours.
Huh?
From this he emphatically derives a doctrine of "Not my people, not my problem"-which wording in itself triggered several people who sustained moral injury from their interpretation of who "my people" might be, and broke their fingernails clutching their pearls.
Huh?
To the point: Comparing Lewiston or the Indiana Mall and a late night/early morning venue where drunken, rowdy behavior is the entire point of going and a shooting erupts is comparing chalk and cheese.
The pudding proof is the media attention alone: actual deliberate mass murders of innocents/strangers get days, weeks or months of excruciating coverage...and while sickening, are rare.
Morally, those who can intervene, should.
No one gives a tinker's damn about the weekend tally of incidents where 3+ people are shot in Chicago, or Birmingham or Tampa...except as a talking point for gun control hand wringing, making blanket statements about race or poverty...or getting blog clicks(which worked, clearly. I clicked on it twice, rereading it...).
Intervention in those situations depends on a host of facts unique to each situation, and with much less moral imperative...or zero imperative.

The second hook in the post was the Sherlockian deduction that violence may occur over protests related to the current brew up in Israel. I'll reserve my superlatives of appreciation at this Theory of Mind insight to merely say: "Well...yeah." LIkewise the next OIS that gains traction or the runup to the next presidential election and, likely, the results, no matter which side wins.

Welcome to The United States of Bleeding Kansas, where absolutely everything is a matter of nonnegotiable high moral Principles and never, ever an issue to be debated and compromised on.

[Joe in PNG]

I posted it because I thought it was an interesting topic to think about and discuss, especially since the environment has changed considerably since a mere decade ago.

Stopping an obvious mass shooter is an easy button option, as is assisting a LEO in obvious trouble, or drawing on someone making an obvious armed threat on you or yours.

However, there's occasions where discretion is the obvious better part of valor. A couple of doods escalating their mutual monkey dance by drawing gats for instance is a good opportunity to depart the scene, because my presence is not required if things get ballistic. Likewise, if I'm out with grandma and a flock of small relatives, I probably should not be running to the sound of unseen gunfire, but should instead work towards getting them as safe as possible considering the location & circumstances.

Of course, that's written from my perspective as a normie with a permit. An off-shift LEO may be duty bound to intervene in such circumstances, and should if required.

The hard part is when things are a bit more vague, because you don't have all the available information other than a handful of what sounds like shots out of eyesight. Should a normie with a permit go charging towards the sound of gunfire as a general principle? Fight or flight? I suspect the answer here is "it depends" on location, party, and other available clues.

[fixer]

Side bar:

If the general advice is self-preservation above all, how do you in good faith expect people to be soldiers, cops, firemen, etc? There's a non-zero chance you'll get killed/maimed/radically fucked up for no personal gain so that some stranger may do better. That stranger may be a turd.

Keep pounding 'me first no matter what' and keep bitching about why society is the way it is. Keep wondering why you've raised a generation of pussies while pounding how dangerous everything is if you try to do the right thing. For God and Country? Fuck that, it's old and busted. God is dead, obviously. Your mortal life and wellbeing is the most important thing because you're just that fucking special. Why is everyone such a self centered twat? I'm not the only one seeing the disconnect here right?


I'm a little late to this discussion but your post is like a 2023 version of Immanuel Kant. Good stuff.

Bascially if you "universalize" Greg's thinking it pans out exactly how you have stated.

[Trooper224]

What would I do? Honestly, I don't know anymore.

When it comes to flight or fight, I know from past experience there isn't much flight in my psyche, for better of worse. There was a time when I new exactly what I'd do. Now, I stand at the latter part of a lifetime of service in one uniform or another, in which I defended and protected a society that rabidly hates me for my efforts and seems so blatantly undeserving of the same.

I've seen the worst. I've held a four year old boy to my chest and felt him die, and felt the helplessness of knowing there was nothing I could do. I've known the best, in saving young women from a human trafficking ring, knowing what would have been waiting for them otherwise. I've permanently removed individual evils from our society and felt pretty damned good about it. Now, I just feel tired and worn out. Tired in my soul, like it was all for nothing.

Part of me would like to say, " you're all on your own". But, knowing myself as I do, I'd probably run to the guns like always. Cussing like the old sailor I am, about all the trouble I'm about to endure for a bunch of worthless fuckers who aren't deserving of my efforts, but I'd still go. I've dumped.out more of my manpurse than I prefer, so that's all.

BTW, I think Gerg's an ass.

[Cory]

These threads about who would do what in unspecified shooting scenerios always devolve.

They're kind of useless. Get as proficient as you can at relevent skills, and when the time comes you'll do what needs to be done. Whatever that is will be guided by your deep seated morals, skills, and the scenerio at hand.

Talking through scenerios is best done in small groups in person verses on the web. It's to dense a topic for this medium. It always comes off as bravado or cowardice without the full range of non-verbals.

[Joe S]

feudist and Joe in PNG kinda touched on this, but I think some folks are thinking that they may be able to tell in the moment whether it is a monkey dance related to political protestors or gangs, or whether is is a lone-wolf nutty mass shooter or Mumbai style small team terrorist attack. That seems a very difficult thing to do in just a few seconds if you are there, for reasons too numerous to even list.

So I would recommend thinking hard about that if it's part of your preset decision tree under those circumstances.

[Joe in PNG]

Now, setting aside the whole potential mass shooting thing, what general course of action should the wise armed citizen be considering during an incident that doesn't actually concern them?

Personally, I'm more inclined to follow the myriads of ancient advice about not getting involved if I don't have to. "Like one who grabs a stray dog by the ears is someone who rushes into a quarrel not their own." Proverbs 26:17
However, I do disagree about not being a good witness- that is a civic responsibility.

[BillSWPA]

Now, setting aside the whole potential mass shooting thing, what general course of action should the wise armed citizen be considering during an incident that doesn't actually concern them?

Personally, I'm more inclined to follow the myriads of ancient advice about not getting involved if I don't have to. "Like one who grabs a stray dog by the ears is someone who rushes into a quarrel not their own." Proverbs 26:17
However, I do disagree about not being a good witness- that is a civic responsibility.

Your approach is correct in many cases. Getting involved in third party conflicts is rarely wise. Things may not be as they appear. The scruffy looking dude pushing a woman into a car could be an undercover police officer arresting a prostitute. Some former police officers have told me that the prostitute will know exactly what to say to get you involved.

Having said that, if I am reasonably certain that there is a clear innocent party who will be harmed if I do not get involved, then I would get involved. I have done so in the past. We are given certain skills and resources so that we will use them to benefit others. I would not feel right about walking away from someone I should have helped. I have discussed this with my wife, and she is in agreement.

[LittleLebowski]

Remember Eli stopping a mass shooting at the Greenwood Mall in Indiana? Some hillbilly kid with a ragged-ass Glock killed a emotionally deranged rifleman mowing down people in a food court? I do.

I'm sure I'm not alone here in that I've endangered myself for stupider reasons than saving innocent lives. I do, perhaps, have the advantage of knowing *exactly* how I react in an active shooter incident and it sure as fuck wasn't to leave. You do what you can sleep with at night, but for me you can take all that advice and shove it up your ass.

It absolutely is that simple. I can, and do, live just fine with shooting some asshole who needed shot because he was shooting people who didn't need to be shot. I didn't need therapy or to work anything out. I just needed some time to readjust to the mundane non-adrenaline filled 'normal life'. I am, to this day, carrying a burden about children in distress I was unable to help. I don't think I'm particularly unique in this regard.

I love you man, no homo 😁

[DDTSGM]

Now, setting aside the whole potential mass shooting thing, what general course of action should the wise armed citizen be considering during an incident that doesn't actually concern them?

Personally, I'm more inclined to follow the myriads of ancient advice about not getting involved if I don't have to. "Like one who grabs a stray dog by the ears is someone who rushes into a quarrel not their own." Proverbs 26:17
However, I do disagree about not being a good witness- that is a civic responsibility.

I think it would/should hinge on whether your perception as to whether there are innocents involved.

In any case as some have mentioned we won't really know until it happens.

[MDFA]

What would I do? Honestly, I don't know anymore.

When it comes to flight or fight, I know from past experience there isn't much flight in my psyche, for better of worse. There was a time when I new exactly what I'd do. Now, I stand at the latter part of a lifetime of service in one uniform or another, in which I defended and protected a society that rabidly hates me for my efforts and seems so blatantly undeserving of the same.

I've seen the worst. I've held a four year old boy to my chest and felt him die, and felt the helplessness of knowing there was nothing I could do. I've known the best, in saving young women from a human trafficking ring, knowing what would have been waiting for them otherwise. I've permanently removed individual evils from our society and felt pretty damned good about it. Now, I just feel tired and worn out. Tired in my soul, like it was all for nothing.

Part of me would like to say, " you're all on your own". But, knowing myself as I do, I'd probably run to the guns like always. Cussing like the old sailor I am, about all the trouble I'm about to endure for a bunch of worthless fuckers who aren't deserving of my efforts, but I'd still go. I've dumped.out more of my manpurse than I prefer, so that's all.

BTW, I think Gerg's an ass.

Well Said.

In my current employment, I'm going in without question. Other situations I would have to assess the best I can at the time.

[Joe S]

Now, setting aside the whole potential mass shooting thing,

The point I was trying to make is that I don't know how we set that aside.

Experienced infantry in open environment with often known weapons/calibers and the benefit of greater distance/time oftentimes have a difficult time figuring out who is shooting who.

We're likely talking an urban environment, with building bouncing back noise, panicked crowds, and you being taken completely by surprise, with seconds and maybe feet to maneuver with while your brain catches up, dealing with non-combatants, etc.

And with that, i don't think it will be so easy to know who is shooting who, let alone why.

[WobblyPossum]

The point I was trying to make is that I don't know how we set that aside.

Experienced infantry in open environment with often known weapons/calibers and the benefit of greater distance/time oftentimes have a difficult time figuring out who is shooting who.

We're likely talking an urban environment, with building bouncing back noise, panicked crowds, and you being taken completely by surprise, with seconds and maybe feet to maneuver with while your brain catches up, dealing with non-combatants, etc.

And with that, i don't think it will be so easy to know who is shooting who, let alone why.

What time about to say only applies to the stereotypical active shooter situation as we commonly define it, where someone is attempting to murder multiple people unrelated to other criminal activity such as drug dealing, gang stuff, etc. I’m not referring to drive by shootings or gang turf wars where multiple people happen to catch a bullet. In every single video I’ve ever seen of an active shooter, it has been glaringly obvious who the bad guy is. In every single one, it’s been some guy walking around shooting a bunch of unarmed people. Sometimes that guy has a rifle, sometimes he has a pistol. Sometimes he’s dressed like everyone else, sometimes he’s wearing “tactical” gear. If you see someone with a firearm shooting into a crowd of unarmed people, that’s the bad guy.

I remember we had a thread about one of the mass shootings early this year where some guy got out of a car in a strip mall parking lot with a rifle and started shooting at people. The whole thing was captured live on the dashcam of someone in the parking lot. Someone commented that the driver should have just accelerated and run the shooter over. Someone else replied that it’s difficult to tell who’s who in a situation like that. I disagreed then as I disagree now. The guy who is shooting into the unarmed crowd as they run away from him is the bad guy.

[RoyGBiv]

I remember we had a thread about one of the mass shootings early this year where some guy got out of a car in a strip mall parking lot with a rifle and started shooting at people. The whole thing was captured live on the dashcam of someone in the parking lot. Someone commented that the driver should have just accelerated and run the shooter over. Someone else replied that it’s difficult to tell who’s who in a situation like that. I disagreed then as I disagree now. The guy who is shooting into the unarmed crowd as they run away from him is the bad guy.

Not disagreeing.... However, the price of being wrong about that is high enough to cause a lot of self doubt, or at least, hesitation.
Believing what you are seeing, when you've never been confronted with it before, can take time.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

You can brain storm scenarios and examples pro and con for each possible action. You can rationalize or understand an action based on the principles I mentioned to the edge of being ridiculous.

You see a nut start shooting at Jews going to synagogue. Should you intervene?
At a future Charlottesville like march with fine folk chanting, you see a person in Orthodox Jewish grab, open fire on them. Do you intervene?

In the abstract, both are rampage killers. Are the victims worth your action? For a law officer, different from a civilian?

This has been an interesting and relevant discussion. There is no clear cut answer. We would like there to be.

[AMC]

Your approach is correct in many cases. Getting involved in third party conflicts is rarely wise. Things may not be as they appear. The scruffy looking dude pushing a woman into a car could be an undercover police officer arresting a prostitute. Some former police officers have told me that the prostitute will know exactly what to say to get you involved.

Having said that, if I am reasonably certain that there is a clear innocent party who will be harmed if I do not get involved, then I would get involved. I have done so in the past. We are given certain skills and resources so that we will use them to benefit others. I would not feel right about walking away from someone I should have helped. I have discussed this with my wife, and she is in agreement.

This did remind me of a funny, on-point incident. Many years ago my co-workers and I were assigned to work a prostitution abatement detail in our district. We had 2 female officers working as decoys, and several of us were dressed up as scruffy or crazy homeless denizens of the streets. I was able to sit steps away from the decoys dressed as a panhandler, complete with sign. Another officer was pushing a shopping cart full of cans, wearing a robe with a broken toilet seat around his neck. The 3rd cover officer was drinking a coke out of a paper bag, wearing a dirty old 'panda' hat.

One of the local transgender prostitutes took issue with the attention that the decoy officers were getting, and ran across the street and grabbed one of the decoys by her ponytail from behind, pulling her off of her feet to the ground and punching her repeatedly in the head. The three of us took him down pretty quick and hard. As we were struggling to get the suspect into cuffs, a Hindi cab driver stopped and opened his door next to us, shouting "I see you! I see what you're doing! I am calling the police!" I pulled my star out from under my dirty old field jacket and said "Relax, pal. We ARE the police!" The look on his face as he looked from panda head to toilet seat to scruffy panhandler was priceless. But he shut his door and drove away, shaking his head.

Regarding the topic at hand....I'm with BBI that it wasn't entirely clear from Elifritz's article that he was solely referring to 3rd party criminal activity. I would agree that such shenanigans are to be avoided and walked away from if at all possible. The riot/demonstration thing is going in a direction that I unfortunately think that may not be possible for much longer. The last few weeks of increasingly hostile and radical marches and vandalism are in my opinion going to merge with the almost certain to come political violence that this election year is very likely to bring. Nobody has a crystal ball, but it's safe to say there's a possibility the coming year could make 2020 look like a preschool Easter egg hunt.

In regards to the proverbial 'shots fired in a crowded place', and the confusion that it brings.....yeah. Unless you are close enough to have eyes on the shooter, it's gonna take a minute to figure out what's up. Having been in this scenario more than once, I'd agree that depending on the location, auditory cues may be confusing. After a couple of seconds crowd movement will likely provide a cue as to the direction of the danger. A relaxed awareness that comes from experience working in dangerous or sketchy places is really helpful here, since you're always looking for exits and cover/concealment opportunities. If I'm with the family, I'm 100% evacuating them out of there first and foremost. Even if by myself, I don't carry a badge or have the authority to ID myself as LE anymore....and it isn't my job. Having supervised and trained literally hundreds of cops in all the requisite skills, I am not sanguine about a random bluesuiters ability to magically know I'm the 'good guy' with a gun in my hand. Even if I decide to stick around and be on-site Intel with a cell phone for the 1st responders.....my guns not coming out unless absolutely necessary.

Perhaps I am conflating Greg's advice with the plethora of other "fuck everyone else I'm looking out for me" advice peddlers out there, which is only contributing in my opinion to the dissolution of the social contract. Hence dozens of people who livestream the rape of a woman on a subway train. That just didn't use to happen. If we continue down this path.....we truly will be in 'No one is coming to save you' territory.

[Totem Polar]

This has been an interesting and relevant discussion. There is no clear cut answer. We would like there to be.

Indeed, all 3 of the above.

The nut of the issue is that the clear cut answers are the far, far outlying ends of the bell curve on what is already a relatively unlikely scenario set.

On one end, we have, say, an unarmed elementary school teacher taking her class on an outing to the children’s science center in the city downtown. Pretty sure that’s a cut and run situation. On the other end, we have Joe/Jane AIWB/red dot CCW in a shopping mall who sees a dude “within the length of a full-size SUV” pull a folding stocked AK variant out of a bag, shout allahu akbar, and start putting rounds into families: that’s a situation that doesn’t call for much debate, either.

Both of those are so “outside” as to be considered “black unicorn™️” situations for most here. Especially if you’re not an elementary school teacher. :)

Every scenario in between exists on a continuum of grey area. It’s almost *all* grey area. It’s grey area typing on a keyboard, let alone in real life, with excess real life input to filter under extreme time constraints. The likelihood of getting it perfect is probably low. The best we can do is game plan, think things out using whatever collective experience there is that we can access, and try to put some overarching principles/fundamentals in place in advance to mitigate how bad the decision making will be, should the opportunity be visited upon us.

It’s those overarching principles/guidelines that I’m interested in ferreting out of this discussion. JMO.

[WobblyPossum]

Not disagreeing.... However, the price of being wrong about that is high enough to cause a lot of self doubt, or at least, hesitation.
Believing what you are seeing, when you've never been confronted with it before, can take time.

You’re entirely correct about it taking a while for many people to process what’s happening and to come to terms with it. Some people won’t ever be able to come to terms with it because the idea of someone murdering a bunch of unarmed people in public is so alien to their world view that there isn’t even a parking space for it in their mind. The consequences of doing something wrong with a gun are incredibly high, as they should be. Those are the rules we agree to when we choose to strap on a gun and go out into the world. As Tom Givens said in class “with great power comes great accountability.”

[Erick Gelhaus]

Meanwhile, allegedly from the DoD for tomorrow:
111173

[Malamute]

Meanwhile, allegedly from the DoD for tomorrow:
111173


Im not seeing a link to the actual release or advisory. The DOD website or twitter account has nothing about it.

https://www.defense.gov/News/Advisories/

[Erick Gelhaus]

Im not seeing a link to the actual release or advisory. The DOD website has nothing about it.

https://www.defense.gov/News/Advisories/

I wrote allegedly because i hadn't found confirmation.

[CleverNickname]

Im not seeing a link to the actual release or advisory. The DOD website or twitter account has nothing about it.

https://www.defense.gov/News/Advisories/
Wouldn't it be the FBI or Homeland Security or someone like that making such an advisory, not DoD?

e: I'm not criticizing you, I just think the original source is BS.

[camel]

Don’t always trust x

[Malamute]

Wouldn't it be the FBI or Homeland Security or someone like that making such an advisory, not DoD?

e: I'm not criticizing you, I just think the original source is BS.

That would seem a good question, since the source was supposed to be DOD, but their website and twitter have nothing about it.

FBI website has info on threats to the homeland posted as: Statement Before the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs
Washington, D.C.
October 31, 2023

Nothing like the item attributed to DOD.

DHS has some good stuff, https://www.dhs.gov/all-news-updates and this https://www.dhs.gov/all-news-updates/187 though also none related to the DOD thing. Wonder where that started? A google search only shows the first thing shown, and another one 3 hrs later by another apparent influencer, referenceing the first one by Chuck Callesto. No actual source or link given.


In trying to find related info this turned up https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-gaza-misinformation-fact-check-e58f9ab8696309305c3ea2bfb269258e

[camel]

That would seem a good question, since the source was supposed to be DOD, but their website and twitter have nothing about it.

FBI website has info on threats to the homeland posted as: Statement Before the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs
Washington, D.C.
October 31, 2023

Nothing like the item attributed to DOD.

DHS has some good stuff, https://www.dhs.gov/all-news-updates and this https://www.dhs.gov/all-news-updates/187 though also none related to the DOD thing. Wonder where that started? A google search only shows the first thing shown, and another one 3 hrs later by another apparent influencer, referenceing the first one by Chuck Callesto. No actual source or link given.


In trying to find related info this turned up https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-gaza-misinformation-fact-check-e58f9ab8696309305c3ea2bfb269258e

It’s always interesting. You have to fight for a full story from twitter. Now currently x. That was the same thing before.
And also why I like the reporting from the old school wires Like associated press. Dept of state hase useful info but pertains to U.s individuals.

[DrkBlue]

Not confirming or disproving any Tweets/Xs, but some Left Coast folk reportedly are doing Left Coast stuff.
https://www.knkx.org/politics/2023-11-06/protesters-calling-for-gaza-cease-fire-block-road-at-tacoma-port-while-military-cargo-ship-docks

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-oakland-port-protest-18467434.php

Recently similar “protests” in the U.K. have involved running a van through a security gate and taking over corporate offices.

https://therealnews.com/uk-workers-blockade-elbit-systems-arms-factory-in-kent

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/palestine-action-group-occupies-israeli-drone-engine-factory-in-uk/3039357

Govern one’s self accordingly.

[BillSWPA]

I wrote allegedly because i hadn't found confirmation.

I do appreciate the warnings even with the qualification of lack of confirmation.

It does seem like whenever there is a threat, it is just a threat, and whenever there is an actual event, it was not preceded by a threat. My completely unscientific and unquantified observation seems to point to a strong lack of correlation between threats and events.

[Hambo]

Wasn't there just Hamas Friday or something?

Fuck these phony warnings and whoever creates them.

[Totem Polar]

Wasn't there just Hamas Friday or something?

Fuck these phony warnings and whoever creates them.

Looks like we need to bring back the old ways:

[Joe S]

Wasn't there just Hamas Friday or something?

Fuck these phony warnings and whoever creates them.

This is very similar to the first one, that everyone says was the announced "Day of Rage" where we were assured by the media that HAMAS had just called for suicide bombers in every city in the West, and we got....some college kids marching.

Unmentioned was that if you actually bothered to read/listen what was said, they called specifically for Muslims in Arab countries to protest. Exactly that.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I've mentioned this before, after 9/11 I was at a shindig where a state department guy and well known instructor told us Al-Qaeda had 8000 trained terrorists ready to at the start signal. Didn't seem to happen.

[willie]

Did the guy giving advice write a one size fits all prescription? The distinction about response to gang banger shooting events and a mass shooter event was not clear to me. I agree that seeking safety makes sense when rival gangs fight. I don't agree with not using one's weapon against a mass shooter. However, I didn't comprehend that part of the prescription.

If a convenience store robbery occurred in my presence and the bad guy was not shooting people, I would stay out of this event. If I were in a bar and a fight started, I would leave immediately. In my town if I had to shoot someone to save my LIFE or another persons, the police and the district attorney would not try to screw me. Note I said life.

[45dotACP]

Meanwhile, allegedly from the DoD for tomorrow:
111173

Wow, crazy it reminds me of that church I went to where the pastor said he knew the world was going to end on June 6, 2006...It was unconfirmed, but nobody could prove the world wasn't going to end on 6.6.06...

I for sure remember my parents freezing extra corn and stocking up on more canning jars before Y2K.


I tend to look at most of the shit on twitter with a gimlet eye nowadays. If the world is ending tomorrow, or there are terrorists waiting with suicide vests behind every corner just waiting to hop out and do the ol aloha snackbar, I guess I'll just have to deal with it with whatever I've got on my person.

[WDR]

I was lucky enough to miss a pro-palestinian protest in downtown Salt Lake today... by about a block. With a truck full of family. Bleh. I'd really rather not have to visit large cities, but sometimes one just gets "lucky".

[Lex Luthier]

I was lucky enough to miss a pro-palestinian protest in downtown Salt Lake today... by about a block. With a truck full of family. Bleh. I'd really rather not have to visit large cities, but sometimes one just gets "lucky".

The idea of such a thing occurring in Salt Lake City makes me wonder about a lot of beliefs I hold. What other assumptions have I made that are likely to crumble under reality?

[Joe in PNG]

The idea of such a thing occurring in Salt Lake City makes me wonder about a lot of beliefs I hold. What other assumptions have I made that are likely to crumble under reality?

Do remember that a lot of people in Utah elected Romney to the Senate.

[Borderland]

Do remember that a lot of people in Utah elected Romney to the Senate.

His taxes weren't a consideration to people in UT because the church was the beneficiary of 4 million dollars ? of charitable contributions the year before he ran for president.

I voted for him.

[RoyGBiv]

His taxes weren't a consideration to people in UT because the church was the beneficiary of 4 million dollars ? of charitable contributions the year before he ran for president.

I voted for him. Obama ran against him for a 2nd term IIRC.

Candy Crowley kicked his booty at the debate.

[Borderland]

Candy Crowley kicked his booty at the debate.

Funny I don't remember her. Maybe I didn't see it.

[RoyGBiv]

Funny I don't remember her. Maybe I didn't see it.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2218841/Presidential-Debate-2012-Outrage-moderator-Candy-Crowley-sides-Obama.html


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfmKpA30Xeo

[HeavyDuty]

The idea of such a thing occurring in Salt Lake City makes me wonder about a lot of beliefs I hold. What other assumptions have I made that are likely to crumble under reality?

Sounds like a prequel for Prayers for the Assassin.

[WDR]

The idea of such a thing occurring in Salt Lake City makes me wonder about a lot of beliefs I hold. What other assumptions have I made that are likely to crumble under reality?

Salt Lake was fairly sporty downtown during the covid/BLM riots. I also narrowly avoided a previous protest while visiting Gallensons Guns downtown (200 N, 200 E) back during that time. But, the city, and surrounding burbs have changed a lot in my lifetime. Not for the better, IMHO. And frankly, I think the church is partly to blame for some of the problems.


Do remember that a lot of people in Utah elected Romney to the Senate.

Pretty sure none of those folks were out protesting for Palestine. Not that any of us should have voted for him in the first place... (which leads to: )


I voted for him.

I didn't. And I won't. Ever. Cast a vote for him. Screw that carpetbagging mom jean wearing slick used car salesman douche canoe. He won based on his religious affiliation and by "saving" the Olympics when they came to town, back in the day. Please Massachusetts, call him home!

[willie]

The idea of such a thing occurring in Salt Lake City makes me wonder about a lot of beliefs I hold. What other assumptions have I made that are likely to crumble under reality?

Nothing wrong with your beliefs. Many of these folks are the same people who condemn all cops based on actions of a very few and utter platitudes lifted from critical race theory while at the same time misapplying the concepts. They are addressing complex issues in either/or(absolute)terms. I have not figured out how so many reached this point.

[Lex Luthier]

Nothing wrong with your beliefs. Many of these folks are the same people who condemn all cops based on actions of a very few and utter platitudes lifted from critical race theory while at the same time misapplying the concepts. They are addressing complex issues in either/or(absolute)terms. I have not figured out how so many reached this point.


I don't know either, Willie.
According to a few researchers, we humans are farming out so much of our former memory and executive functions to our smart phones and devices that we are becoming measurably more stupid. That might be a worthy thing to look into more deeply after we put the fires out.

[Totem Polar]

Many of these folks are the same people who condemn all cops based on actions of a very few and utter platitudes lifted from critical race theory while at the same time misapplying the concepts. They are addressing complex issues in either/or(absolute)terms.

Reasonably astute summary, IMHO.


That might be a worthy thing to look into more deeply after we put the fires out.

If.

If we put the fires out. JMO.


Say, we haven’t had an update to your MNPLS thread in a while. What’s the carjacking/automatic weapons fire/craft microbrewery ratio at these days?

;)

[Joe in PNG]

I don't know either, Willie.
According to a few researchers, we humans are farming out so much of our former memory and executive functions to our smart phones and devices that we are becoming measurably more stupid. That might be a worthy thing to look into more deeply after we put the fires out.

A lot of civilization is training people to set aside certain natural behaviors and attitudes while adopting others with better long-term benefits.

We've basically aren't really doing that anymore. And part of that is the instant gratification available through technology.

[Totem Polar]

A lot of civilization is training people to set aside certain natural behaviors and attitudes while adopting others with better long-term benefits.

We've basically aren't really doing that anymore. And part of that is the instant gratification available through technology.

Damn. Astute x2.

[GyroF-16]

A lot of civilization is training people to set aside certain natural behaviors and attitudes while adopting others with better long-term benefits.

We've basically aren't really doing that anymore. And part of that is the instant gratification available through technology.

Damn. Joe in PNG drops another truth bomb. This is the stuff that makes P-F a special place.

[Joe S]

A lot of civilization is training people to set aside certain natural behaviors and attitudes while adopting others with better long-term benefits.

We've basically aren't really doing that anymore. And part of that is the instant gratification available through technology.

You are truly a scholar or historian in the classical sense. Your observations are always welcome. I feel as though we always gain a look into culture and sociology when you post.

[okie john]

Just when I was trying to put that (prevailing) side of my personality out to pasture...

Not gonna happen.

You (and several others here) need to retire with 10-15 acres next to your houses so the helicopter bearing the .gov guy who begs you to come out of retirement for one last mission will have a place to land.


Okie John

[blues]

Not gonna happen.

You (and several others here) need to retire with 10-15 acres next to your houses so the helicopter bearing the .gov guy who begs you to come out of retirement for one last mission will have a place to land.


Okie John

My neighbor has about twenty...he'll have to make accommodations. I only have a bit over one.

Thanks for the acknowledgement, brother...I think. ;)

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm not sifting through this thread to remove the political content. Thread closed.