Recent Class Observations

[entropy]

A good friend and I took a 2-day tactical shotgun course this past weekend. First shotgun class for both of us, although we have both been shooting them for years in a sporting capacity. A few things really jumped out:

We were both running 870’s. They were set up pretty basic. Mine was a stock HD model, my buddies was an older cop gun with new springs and a Magpul stock. His had a rigid sidesaddle, mine Velcro cards. Only additional item was a sling.

Class was a bit less than a 50/50 split of autos and pumps. A few more autos. 16 total. Pumps were pretty even split between Remingtons and Mossbergs. Autos were dominated by Berettas (1301’s) and a couple of Benelli’s. One guy was running a TTI JW2 M4. Most had red dots. There were maybe 4-5 of us who did not. I was the only one with rifle sights.

There was not a single auto that didn’t choke at least once. Most several times. It didn’t seem to matter if it was birdshot, buck or slugs. The TTI went down hard. Not sure if he got it back up again or switched guns. The pumps (with the exception of an instructors Mossberg just kept going. One guy had a Maverick 88 that he ran like a champ. Final shoot off at the end pitted a younger guy with a pretty basic 870 and another with a 1301. When the dust settled, the guy with the Beretta won, but not due to skill, only time measured in less than a 2 second split That kid ran that pump gun like a boss. Those with the dots certainly had an advantage, although a few of those went down too. My 870 ran fine with a few short stoke issues and another spectacular fail when I combat loaded a slug rim first.

We patterned our guns for the record with Federal LE 9 pellet. The results were pretty eye opening for all. At 15 yards on mine, there was finally some pellet spread. Closer than that, it was a wad hole. Good to 25y easy. Cheaper RIO #00 ran pretty well too, also equally cheap Turk Sterling slugs. They stayed on the 3/4 IPSC plate at 50y and 100y without issue.

Great experience and learned a lot. 600+ rounds of 12ga over 2 days is a bit brutal. Toss in temps around 40F for day #2 with a bit of mist and add to the suck. Don’t know what to think on the autos. Certainly a sample size of ONE, but I’m not as drooling over the 1301 as I was previously. Maybe a better hi-viz follower, contemplating a red dot, but certainly not sold on that. This is going to be the new rural HD set up going forward. It’s gonna ride in the side-by-side, back of the truck, out in the barn. Not treated kindly. It has to work tho.


Comments welcome.

[167]

It has been my experience that people often show up to class without truly vetted gear and ammo. It doesn't really matter what type of class it is, but people usually don't run their guns as hard as they do at a class. Which is part of the purpose of attending training, get gear sorted out how it needs to be. I think there are plenty of reliable 1301 samples to suggest that the 1301 is generally reliable, but like anything, it is subject to the failings of the end user.

If you decide to run a new follower in your 870, the Vang Comp version is my personal favorite flavor. Hard to mistake it for anything but the follower.

I need to get one of the newer HD 870's and see if they are better than their predecessors. I hear rumors they are.

[gato naranja]

My 870 ran fine with a few short stoke issues and another spectacular fail when I combat loaded a slug rim first.

I am the weak link in my shotgun chain; this would be true whether I ran an ancient Parker SxS or a new M1014. The key for me is familiarity; like the proverbial elderly dog, I am too old to learn too many new tricks. The 870P will be what Mrs. gata naranja ends up having to dispose of when it becomes surplus to my needs.

WRT the patterning of the buck and the accuracy of the el cheapo slugs... was this with IC or modified chokes?

[SCCY Marshal]

...There was not a single auto that didn’t choke at least once. Most several times. It didn’t seem to matter if it was birdshot, buck or slugs...

Building on 167's post, I'd add to his opinion. People don't like or care about shotguns. Gamers buy a trendy semi with a comical underbite tube and likely top with a dot and think their work is done. Class attendees buy a trendy semi and bring it, thinking the same. This leads to failure from lack of due preparation.

They don't know that brass plated mild steel rims exist, are the norm in cheap shells, becoming too common in middle quality shells, and suck. Failures to extract occur in guns harder to clear than a pump. They are surprised that hitting steel with the edge of a light birdshot pattern doesn't knock steel down. They don't zero their guns. If your class was anything like classes and matches I have attended, at least one guy brought sabot slugs for his smoothbore. They don't know how to properly load their gun and have "failures to feed" that are an actual case of you-didn't-chamber-a-shell. Are the guns cleaned and lubricated? LOL. LMAO, even. A pump gun loosely shouldered will fire every time and let you know that your mount sucks through instant discomfort. A semi might choke like a limpwristed pistol. Especially when running loads toward the light end of function to begin with and the gun is getting dry/dirty.

I like to keep some Winchester AA heavy loads around and offer a handful to those having semi-auto troubles at matches. "Try these on the next stage." The troubles usually stop. Same for the little bottle of oil or packet of lubricant wipes I keep in my range kit.

Do pumps like the mild steel rims any better? No, but they usually choke less and are easier to mortar. Are people more likely to zero them for slugs? No, but selection is at least simplified by not having to reliably cycle an action. Fewer excuses when pretty much any rifled slug can run in the gun.

[entropy]

Yeah. Puzzling. A few of these folks had taken the class previously so even more so. Who knows tho...maybe it was new equipment compared to next time. I have a “utilitarian Eastern European brain” so I never get too carried away with gizmos.

Looked at my barrel. Factory Remington but unmarked. I believe it’s CYL tho. I’ll look on the box later when I dig it out.

[Guerrero]

I like to keep some Winchester AA heavy loads around and offer a handful to those having semi-auto troubles at matches. "Try these on the next stage." The troubles usually stop.

Tangent: thanks for that comment. I remember one of the shotgun instructors here on P-F saying something about Winchester AA being good practice/training rounds, but I never wrote it down or knew which one.

[GJM]

In my experience, semi auto shotguns mostly choke because of ammo, and pump shotguns mostly choke because of user error.

[LHS]

Tangent: thanks for that comment. I remember one of the shotgun instructors here on P-F saying something about Winchester AA being good practice/training rounds, but I never wrote it down or knew which one.

Pretty much all of us agree on that :D

[LHS]

In my experience, semi auto shotguns mostly choke because of ammo, and pump shotguns mostly choke because of user error.

To an extent I agree, but I also see a lot of user error with semis as well. We see a LOT of failures to fire during emergency reloads because the shooter didn't clear their hand from the bolt handle's path and obstructed it from going fully into battery. Gun go click, no boom. Also under stress people tend to rack the charging handle without remembering that you have to manually pop a shell onto the lifter first.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

My Winchester 1300 Defender with 8 shots has gotten me through local matches, a Givens class and a Moses class. It sits ready for the zombies and bear.

[mmc45414]

Tangent: thanks for that comment. I remember one of the shotgun instructors here on P-F saying something about Winchester AA being good practice/training rounds, but I never wrote it down or knew which one.

Pretty much all of us agree on that :D

The cheap shells that are steel base are also really thin steel, and some of the base of the hull inside it is also cardboard, and the AA or STS are all plastic in that area.
I think the pump guns are more prone to needing to be mortared, but the autos would be more prone to rip the rim off, or slip offa the rim. I think newer production pump guns get shipped with chambers that are less than smooth.

Shooting skeet (and occasionally sporting clays) I see a LOT of automatics that run just fine. Shooting three gun I see a LOT of automatics that choke a LOT. I speculate the guns at three gun get fed the cheapest shells that can be found and the guns get fiddled with, probably because the shotgun is often considered to be necessary evil. Probably the guys going to classes want the cheapest shells also?

[Centerfire]

It has been my experience that people often show up to class without truly vetted gear and ammo.

This is my experience too. I took a class that, all-in, probably cost $4k. Students showed up with rifles they had never fired before.

I've shot my 1301 until it stopped functioning. It doesn't function well when run dry. 600 rounds isn't a high bar from a functionality standpoint. I'm not surprised student had problems though. Humans in general are kind of dumb.

[entropy]

110920


There ya go. CYL.

[TDA]

It has been my experience that people often show up to class without truly vetted gear and ammo. It doesn't really matter what type of class it is, but people usually don't run their guns as hard as they do at a class. Which is part of the purpose of attending training, get gear sorted out how it needs to be.

Guilty. I kind of collect police and riot configured shotguns, and used to run them in whatever local 3 or 2 gun matches or shoots were available (it’s been a little while!) but I don’t really have a breadth of experience, I’ve just broken a variety of used guns. Some new ones too! But it’s not the level of seriousness a 12 year old would approach NRA small bore competition with. I might not even have notes in my shooter’s diary.

[gato naranja]

There ya go. CYL.

My "DEA" lo-pro XS barrel is marked "Imp Cyl." With budget buckshot, it can be on the high or low side of "middlin" but nothing unexpected.

It honestly still does about what I always expected a short shotgun to do with buck or slugs, and it does so without a lot of histrionics. One of those tools that is really more competent than its operator.