US warns it will defend Philippines after Chinese vessels incidents

[LittleLebowski]

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-navy/2023/10/23/us-warns-it-will-defend-philippines-after-chinese-vessels-incidents/


The United States renewed a warning Monday that it would defend the Philippines in case of an armed attack under a 1951 treaty, after Chinese ships blocked and collided with two Filipino vessels off a contested shoal in the South China Sea.
Philippine diplomats summoned a Chinese Embassy official in Manila on Monday for a strongly worded protest following Sunday’s collisions off Second Thomas Shoal. No injuries were reported but the encounters damaged a Philippine coast guard ship and a wooden-hulled supply boat operated by navy personnel, officials said.

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[Spartan1980]

Note to Biden: Shots across a bow is a warning. Anything less is just words. :cool:

[CleverNickname]

I'm pretty sure we could find a surplus something-or-other to donate to the Philippines to replace the LST (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRP_Sierra_Madre) rustbucket that they parked on the shoal in 1999. Pissing off the Chinese would be worth it.

https://i.imgur.com/yHFxVP8.png

[Caballoflaco]

Chinese CoastGuard ships come with rams.


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[CraigS]

Jeez, are we going to defend every dang country on the planet from every other country? Heck we have already given away some too large % of our munitions stockpiles that I worry about defending ourselves. All these munitions that we gave away will probably cost at least double the original price to buy more to resupply our stockpiles.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Yeah, we should have let Japan have the Philippines, negotiated to get our Bataan hostages back and apologize to the Filipinos for fighting their insurrection when they tried to assert their independence after the Spanish American War.

Actually, this is a touch sarcastic as a case could have been made been for letting them be free. My reading off the Spanish American War was that after the naval battles there, a German fleet looked like it might move in, so we claimed position to short circuit that. If we didn't and Germany took them, they would have lost them to Japan in WW I.

Basically, do we want the South China sea area and associated countries to move to vassal status of China as was the case before what the Chinese called the Century of Humiliation. Great minds than I will decide that - Trump or Biden - now crying into my keyboard.

[joshs]

Jeez, are we going to defend every dang country on the planet from every other country? Heck we have already given away some too large % of our munitions stockpiles that I worry about defending ourselves. All these munitions that we gave away will probably cost at least double the original price to buy more to resupply our stockpiles.

We have a mutual-defense treaty with the Philippines. If we fail to honor our treaty obligations, that would substantially hinder our efforts to limit CCP influence in the world.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Exactly, unfortunately and as an aside, one of the fan favorite presidential candidates wants to pull us out of our treaties across the world. Also, not to support Ukraine - seems the new Speaker is in to that, or so I read.

It's 1938 and the Isolationists are in the rise again.

[TiroFijo]

Jeez, are we going to defend every dang country on the planet from every other country? Heck we have already given away some too large % of our munitions stockpiles that I worry about defending ourselves. All these munitions that we gave away will probably cost at least double the original price to buy more to resupply our stockpiles.

I'm sure all the US bases around the south china sea are just a diplomatic gesture of good will...

You are not defending any dang country nilly willy, Craig.

It is called "US interests".

[TAZ]

So. How’s that saying go. Hard times creates hard men. Hard men created good times. Good times create soft men. Wonder if there is something applicable for leadership. Strong leaders create stable times and weak leaders create scary times??? Wonder where the US is on either spectrum??

[CraigS]

Guys you make very good points about treaties and US interests. My concern is how to pay for it and how we go about it. The US is currently $33 TRILLION in debt. That is a little over $250,000 per tax payer. We have been supplying Ukraine for well over a year. We are now helping to resupply Israel. Apparently we are helping Taiwan. We do NOT have an infinite supply. How will we go about defending another country? Seems to me that in the last 40-50 years the US idea of winning a war has changed drastically. Rules of engagement have changed too. Tired of having our guys walking around and only being able to fire if they are fired upon first. Would you call Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan successes? What did those defenses cost us in $ and blood? Particularly the blood. Would you like to be a surviving spouse, kid, or parent of someone who died in those debacles? Look at Ukraine. How much are the countries right west and further west, ya know the ones who (unlike the US) would actually be affected if Russia took over U, contributing? I am tired of being the defender, and the bank, for other countries so they can live their lives w/o a worry knowing we will cover for their inability to defend themselves. I'd be fine w/ looking at all out defense treaties. I don't think it would be a good idea to simply walk away, but I do think that an objective look could be worthwhile. Is our treaty w/ the Philippines the same as it was in 1950?

[Borderland]

I was stationed on a base in Morocco that had zero US military hardware under the command of the US.

Mostly the US military was there to support fleet communications in the Atlantic. This was before communication sats.

I'm sure there are some small US installations around the world without any substantial strike capability, just as there were then. Probably there to provide intelligence.

The best defense is a good offense.

[Stephanie B]

Jeez, are we going to defend every dang country on the planet from every other country? Heck we have already given away some too large % of our munitions stockpiles that I worry about defending ourselves. All these munitions that we gave away will probably cost at least double the original price to buy more to resupply our stockpiles.

We've had a mutual defense treaty with the Philippines since 1951. Neither one of the former guys in either country abrogated it.

[rhino on INGO]

We have a mutual-defense treaty with the Philippines. If we fail to honor our treaty obligations, that would substantially hinder our efforts to limit CCP influence in the world.


We've had a mutual defense treaty with the Philippines since 1951. Neither one of the former guys in either country abrogated it.



Correct.

I was disheartened when their government essentially kicked us out of Subic Bay naval station and Clark AFB. I'm curious if now they might be looking back at that as a bigger mistake than it seemed at the time (the economic hit to them was significant).

Full Disclosure: I still have hundreds of relatives and perhaps thousands of distant relatives in the Philippines. The number of US citizens and permanent residents with family and other connections to the PI is much larger than many people realize.

[Borderland]

Correct.

I was disheartened when their government essentially kicked us out of Subic Bay naval station and Clark AFB. I'm curious if now they might be looking back at that as a bigger mistake than it seemed at the time (the economic hit to them was significant).

Full Disclosure: I still have hundreds of relatives and perhaps thousands of distant relatives in the Philippines. The number of US citizens and permanent residents with family and other connections to the PI is much larger than many people realize.

The Philippian community is large around here. My neighbors family is from the PI, immigrated to BC. My doc is also from the PI.

[rhino on INGO]

The Philippian community is large around here. My neighbors family is from the PI, immigrated to BC. My doc is also from the PI.

I haven't looked at modern numbers, but when I lived in California in the late 1980s and early 1990s, Filipinos were the largest subgroup by population among all of the Asian & Pac Islander ethnicities. The growth rate at the time projected them to have the highest numbers nationally at some point, but I don't think that trend continued. The point is, in addition to US strategic interests, there exists a lot of personal interest (as you noted) in situations that affect the Philippines among the US populace. That might not matter to some, but I know from experience that Filipinos tend to be among the most ardent assimilators of American culture among all immigrant groups. The cultural and historical links between America and the Philippines are both deep and strong.

[CraigS]

They kicked us out of 2 US military bases in 1992 and we still have a treaty w/ them? But apparently they have seen the light.
https://time.com/6252750/philippines-us-military-agreement-china/
Jeez, so those bases of ours we walked away from just like we did in Afghanistan. How many billions did that cost us? And now they want us to spend billions more to build new ones? Will we ever stop being taken advantage of? Yeah, let's look at these treaties.

[CraigS]

Ooops a double

[rhino on INGO]

They kicked us out of 2 US military bases in 1992 and we still have a treaty w/ them? But apparently they have seen the light.
https://time.com/6252750/philippines-us-military-agreement-china/
Jeez, so those bases of ours we walked away from just like we did in Afghanistan. How many billions did that cost us? And now they want us to spend billions more to build new ones? Will we ever stop being taken advantage of? Yeah, let's look at these treaties.

I don't think there is much similarity between relinquishing the bases and presence in the Philippines to what happened in Afghanistan. For example, do not believe that the former resulted in leaving $80B worth of current issue weapons and gear in the hands of people who overtly want to kill all of us, as did the latter. Nor were people killed while it was underway in the Philippines, which we know happened in Afghanistan, both military and civilian alike. And of course, no one got "trapped" in the Philippines afterward as they were free to go where they chose, which is not the case in Afghanistan.

[CraigS]

Maybe Afghanistan isn't a direct comparison. However, if you leave all the military equipment out you still have a lot of facilities left that we built and paid for and then abandoned.

[rhino on INGO]

Maybe Afghanistan isn't a direct comparison. However, if you leave all the military equipment out you still have a lot of facilities left that we built and paid for and then abandoned.

I can't disagree with that. When it happened, it was disappointing and puzzling why they would kick us out. Their economy paid a heavy price for it for quite a while after that, which they should have expected (and maybe did). On the bright side, if we go back now, at least we didn't have those expenses for the thirty years in the interim. :D

[penates]

They kicked us out of 2 US military bases in 1992 and we still have a treaty w/ them? But apparently they have seen the light.
https://time.com/6252750/philippines-us-military-agreement-china/
Jeez, so those bases of ours we walked away from just like we did in Afghanistan. How many billions did that cost us? And now they want us to spend billions more to build new ones? Will we ever stop being taken advantage of? Yeah, let's look at these treaties.

Well, Clark AB was damaged by the eruption of Mt Pinatubo in 1991. As far as kicking the US out of Clark and Subic Bay, the Philipino gvt was still pretty pissed about our support off the Marcos regime and the PRC was not even a blip in the Pacific. We have had ties and treaties with the PI since 1899 when the country was a US territory. Filipinos were US nationals until 1946 so the ties between the PI and US are longer standing than say Germany, Poland, Japan, etc.

[Coyotesfan97]

Jeez, are we going to defend every dang country on the planet from every other country? Heck we have already given away some too large % of our munitions stockpiles that I worry about defending ourselves. All these munitions that we gave away will probably cost at least double the original price to buy more to resupply our stockpiles.

I remember taking US Military History in college which was taught by Otis Young my all time favorite college professor. He always wore black glasses, a white collared shirt, a black tie, and back pants. He had a flat top. He was a veteran. He would’ve been considered not PC.

Anyways when he talked about the Philippines he said whoever controlled them controlled the SE Asia sea routes. He was very emphatic about why we had a strong interest there.

[TGS]

I don't think there is much similarity between relinquishing the bases and presence in the Philippines to what happened in Afghanistan. For example, do not believe that the former resulted in leaving $80B worth of current issue weapons and gear in the hands of people who overtly want to kill all of us, as did the latter.

Well, also consider that's completely fictitious to begin with.

[Caballoflaco]

If somebody doesn’t post up a map of how how far this is from China by lunch I’ll find one this afternoon. This is some CCP 9-line bullshit here.

[DDTSGM]

https://cdn.mappr.co/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/philippines-world-map.jpg?w=768&h=512&scale.option=fill&cw=768&ch=512&cx=center&cy=center

https://kajabi-storefronts-production.kajabi-cdn.com/kajabi-storefronts-production/file-uploads/themes/2152844389/settings_images/3bbd6f-a840-a35e-b28a-381ca5f7edeb_world_war_2_battles_pacific.jpg

[CleverNickname]

If somebody doesn’t post up a map of how how far this is from China by lunch I’ll find one this afternoon. This is some CCP 9-line bullshit here.
Second Thomas Shoal is approximately where the red circle is.
https://i.imgur.com/iqLuQ2C.png

[Caballoflaco]

To get a bit more specific than Dan’s map above, Second Thomas Shoals (noted by the red pin) is way down yonder in between the Philippines and South Vietnam

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Below is the 9 Dash Line China is trying to claim as its national waters…


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CleverNickname beat me to it. Thanks. I’ll leave it mine up just because I like maps.

[Caballoflaco]

Here’s a surprisingly good article from Vox of all places talking about the 9 dash line, the Barbie movie and Hollywood’s CCP appeasement.

https://www.vox.com/culture/2023/7/13/23791805/barbie-map-nine-dash-line-vietnam-china

[Caballoflaco]

Good to see Xi’s visit really helped ease tensions and increase cooperation between the US and China

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna127859


HONG KONG — China’s military said Monday that a U.S. warship had “illegally” entered waters near the Second Thomas Shoal, an atoll in the South China Sea that is claimed by China, the Philippines and others.

China’s Southern Theater Command said it had sent a naval force to follow and monitor the USS Gabrielle Giffords, a littoral combat ship designed for operations near shore, accusing the United States of raising tensions in the region.


“The U.S. infringes China’s sovereignty and safety, disrupts regional peace and stability and violates international law and the basic norms of international relations,” a spokesperson said in a statement on the Southern Theater Command’s official WeChat account.

The U.S. Navy rejected China’s accusation, saying the USS Giffords “was conducting routine operations in international waters in the South China Sea, consistent with international law.”

“Every day the U.S. 7th Fleet operates in the South China Sea, as they have for decades,” deputy public affairs officer Kristina Wiedemann told NBC News via email. “The operations demonstrate we are committed to upholding a free and open Indo-Pacific region.

[Tamara]

Good to see Xi’s visit really helped ease tensions and increase cooperation between the US and China

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna127859

These boilerplate denunciations of USN Freedom of Navigation operations happened all through the last couple administrations, so miss me with that.

EDIT: Someone at Wikipedia has done a full nerdy deep dive on the Great Wall of Sand (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Wall_of_Sand). Neat! You can see a lot of the CCP fortifications via Google satellite view, BTW.

[Stephanie B]

These boilerplate denunciations of USN Freedom of Navigation operations happened all through the last couple administrations, so miss me with that.

FONOPS have been going on in one place or another for many decades. Set Condition III (wartime steaming), fly the largest Ensign from the mast that weather conditions allow and steam in smartly.

A couple of times, they've resulted in some combat time for the airdales.