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DocGKR
11-03-2012, 01:01 PM
Robert Vogel does not need much introduction—his bio http://www.vogeldynamics.com/bio/) and accomplishments (http://www.vogeldynamics.com/accomplishments/) speak for themselves. As with many other world class shooters, Bob is down to earth, humble, practical, and easily approachable. This class at Chabot Gun Range, in the hills above Oakland, CA, started with a 2 hour discussion on his approach to shooting based on his competition, LE, and hunting experiences.

He went over equipment first. At this time, Vogel shoots primarily Glocks for competition, LE duty, and CCW. At the class, he was shooting a G34 with Warren Sevigny competition sights using a wide notch rear aperture and a red fiberoptic front (he replaces the fiberoptic rod about every 3 mo). Interestingly, he uses fiberoptic front sights on all his pistols--competition, LE duty, and CCW. He feels they work just as well for him as tritium sights and reports never having any problems with breakage or fiber loss, but he does install them correctly. In addition, the Warren model front sight he is using provides more retention and protection than many other fiberoptic front sight bases. Vogel generally runs a “-“ connector, a bit lighter firing pin safety plunger spring, along with a bit heavier trigger spring. He discussed needing to maintain Glocks and uses the following regimen with his G34: new recoil spring 1-2 times per year (he uses a non-captured flat wire 11 lbs ISMI recoil spring for a flatter recoil impulse), new mag release spring 1-4 times per year, and periodic replacement of the trigger return spring and slide stop spring. He mentioned the importance of keeping magazines free of debris and recommended the Arrendondo brush (http://www.arredondoaccessorie...=fc25l4901jitls&gid= (http://www.arredondoaccessories.com/category.cfm?cid=1006,2024&PID=fc25l4901jitls&gid=)). He used a Safariland 5189 holster and 032 belt. For LE duty, he runs a Glock 35 with a weapon mounted light. In addition, he uses a hand-held light in a neck index for searching and target ID. He is also rarely without a J-frame (340PD) in his pocket. He mentioned that it is OK to shoot matches using duty or CCW gear, but that at higher levels of USPSA/IPSC or IDPA, specialized equipment was required to be competitive.

In Vogel’s opinion, the most fundamental key to good shooting is superb trigger control. This is even more important to him than sight alignment. Good trigger control is developed and mastered through dry fire. It is important to maintain the same firm grip used in live fire during dry fire sessions; he feels most shooters are far too lax with their grip when dry firing. Bob reports dry firing 8-10 times for each of the 20,000 rounds of live fire practice he averages each year. He uses 1/3 scale targets when dry firing, but does NOT use a timer.

A good grip is crucial for controlling the gun. Vogel wants as high a grip as possible on the pistol--preferably a pistol with a low bore-axis. He squeezes/pinches the pistol with his strong hand, not just grabbing it, and really gets his knuckles hard up against the underside of the trigger guard. Even more important than the strong hand grip, he emphasizes that the support hand grip is the key to fully controlling the pistol. Vogel’s support hand technique is different than anyone I have trained with. He uses the standard thumbs forward position, but places the support hand as far forward and as high up on the pistol as possible. His support hand is gripping harder than his strong hand. In addition, he is applying a strong opposing torque toward the frame with each hand. I was shocked at how much force he was applying against the pistol--he commented that he grips almost to the point where his hands begin to shake. As a result of these factors, he does not subscribe to the typical emphasis on a 360 degree wrap around with the weak hand. In fact, just the base of the support hand thumb is in contact with frame/upper pistol grip of the pistol near the slide, resulting in a gap existing between the rest of the support hand and the lower half of the pistol butt. He mentioned that this aggressive hand positioning sometimes presses against the slide release and prevents the slide from locking back on the last shot; a trade-off he is willing to accept for the faster flatter shooting this technique offers him. In order to improve his hand strength, Vogel uses the Captain’s of Crush hand grippers (http://www.ironmind.com/ironmi...captainsofcrush.html (http://www.ironmind.com/ironmind/opencms/Main/captainsofcrush.html)). He recommended starting with the #1 and working up to #3. He emphasized that these are not casual workouts, but that when done correctly, they are intense and uncomfortable.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/Vogelgrip_zps4491f07e.jpg
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/Vogelweakhand_zpsbc9528c9.jpg
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/VogelRgrip_zps9e07cad6.jpg

In his opinion, lower body position is not critical to shoot effectively, but for maximum recoil control a good upper body stance is imperative. Vogel suggests that the pistol, hands, forearms, and shoulders be level and in a straight line. When done correctly, the support side arm is a bit higher than the strong side, the head is slightly down, and the shoulders are rolled forward.
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/Vogelstance_zpsd46f9e3a.jpg

-----------------

After the talk, we moved on out to the range for live fire. Vogel first demonstrated every drill, stage, and test that was fired prior to the students performing them. A couple of times he made errors and used those as teachable moments. Many of the drills were performed using 6 shots. Vogel states that running the gun that many times forces the shooter to do a more diligent job controlling it compared to just firing 2 shots.

The first event was firing 6 shots into the A-zone at 15 yards during slow fire, then within 7 sec, and finally with a 3.5 second time limit.

Vogel discussed that he does NOT have a full grip as he begins the draw, but firms it up as the gun comes out of the holster and forcefully meets the weak hand very early in the draw. He then presses the pistol out, picking up the sights as it moves about half-way out to full extension. He wants to be on the trigger early, as soon as the pistol is pointed at the target. He stressed the need for extensive dry fire to master the draw. Bob also demonstrated drawing his J-frame from the pocket; watching him pocket draw his J-frame and hit in 0.57 sec was quite impressive!
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/VogelJframe_zpsddd166c1.jpg

Next we shot Bill Drills freestyle at 7, 15, and 25 yards. The bench marks Vogel is shooting for is under 2 sec at 7 yds, under 2.5 sec at 15 yds, and under 3 sec at 25 yds. Vogel emphasized that each shooter should fire at their natural pace with the goal being to increase that natural speed with practice. This was followed by SHO and WHO Bill Drills at 7 yards. When shooting one handed, Vogel blades into the target, bringing his shooting shoulder forward, locking the arm out, resting his chin against his shoulder, and keeping the gun as vertical as possible (he noted a slight pistol cant WHO is OK).
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/VogelSHO_zps7c4330ce.jpg

Multiple runs through a D2R2R2 drill at 7 yds were performed to work on reloading. Vogel uses a fairly standard reloading technique. He gets to the mag release with his strong thumb as early as possible, while the pistol is still vertical; he mentioned that some individuals might need to use the weak hand thumb to release the mag. Simultaneously his support hand is quickly moving to the mag pouch. He draws his arm back to a consistent position against his chest, pistol high in front of his face, with the butt pointed towards mag pouch. He emphasized that a slight pause is necessary just prior to insertion of the mag into the pistol to prevent costly errors. He uses his strong hand thumb to disengage the slide release whenever possible, as it is faster than other techniques. He stated that not everyone can do this, so in those situations folks could use the weak side thumb to drop the slide. Of note, he prefers the older Glocks with the front strap dimple, as it aids his control during mag insertion. He demonstrated that he is faster with a retention reload rather than a tac reload. Reload times should be about the same as the draw time.
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/Vogelreload_zps666abc10.jpg

Next a drill firing 5 shots to the body followed by an immediate transition to 5 shots into the head was conducted. Vogel wants transition times to be as close to a split time as possible. Bob stressed that people can only shoot accurately as fast as they can see and call their shots. Shooters must balance accuracy and speed by seeing just what is necessary to make the shot--this is vastly different for a close shot at 3 yds versus a longer shot at 50 yds. Bob emphasized being sure to have a sight picture for each shot (controlled pairs) and cautioned against just shooting hammers. Vogel also reminded us that to get a true and accurate measure of skill level, shooters need to look at the average of multiple runs and not just focus on the best run. Consistency is paramount.

Next, we ran a drill emphasizing shooting on the move in both right and left lateral directions while engaging five targets arrayed to the front. Regrettably, no steel targets were available at this range, so the class was delayed quite a bit due to constant taping up of the targets. Thankfully all the shooters, as well as Bob, helped to tape.

Finally an unusual drill was shot that used a dice to determine what order the six targets would be engaged. The shooter stands facing 6 targets. On the timer, the shooter drops a large dice on the ground. Whatever number comes up is the starting point; if the shooter roles a 5, they begin by shooting 5 rounds on target five, 6 rounds on target six, then 1 round on target one, etc… until all 6 targets are engaged. This drill forced shooters to be thinking and planning, while simultaneously shooting.

Unfortunately, due to range restrictions, night shooting was not allowed. For the first day, I fired 358 rounds.

---------------

Day two began with another lecture--this one focusing on the mental aspects of shooting successfully. Vogel recommended material from Lanny Bassham’s “With Winning in Mind” (http://www.amazon.com/Winning-...ny+bassham%5B/url%5D (http://www.amazon.com/Winning-Mind-3rd-Ed/dp/1934324264/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1351929465&sr=1-1&keywords=with+winning+in+mind+by+lanny+bassham%5B/url%5D)) and Saul Kirsch’s “Thinking Practical Shooting” (http://www.amazon.com/Thinking...l+shooting%5B/url%5D (http://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Practical-Shooting-outstanding-Performance/dp/9080880531/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1351929578&sr=1-1&keywords=saul+kirsch+thinking+practical+shooting%5 B/url%5D)).

Out on the range, we started with a walk-back drill. 3 shots were fired within 5 sec starting at 3 yards and moving back to 25 yards, in 2 yard increments. Bob stated that no student had ever successfully shot all A-zone hits on this drill—that is until this class.

Next he ran us through the new state of Ohio 25 round LE qualification test. To pass, 20 of 25 shots must hit the A, C, or head zone within the required time limits for the officer to qualify.

4 ft: D3 from retention position in 5 sec
9 ft: 2 body/1 head from holster in 6 sec
12 ft: 4 shots SHO from holster in 8 sec
12 ft: 4 shots WHO from ready in 7 sec
20 ft: D3R3 slide lock reload from holster in 12 sec
30 ft: D3 in 8 sec
50 ft: D2 in 8 sec

This qualification test was absurdly easy. The class performed the test again using the same time standards, but at double the distance--again no problems. I suspect that even at double the distance, the time standards could be cut in half and the test would still be easily manageable…

The classic El Presidente at 10 yards was on the menu next. Vogel demonstrated that starting with the feet close together and rapidly turning to the strong side was the fastest way to engage the targets. He shot left to right, reloaded, and re-engaged left to right. He did not feel there was any speed advantage shooting from right to left after the reload, as is advocated by some trainers. He mentioned that 25-30 years ago only top shooters could perform a sub 10 sec El Prez; now one needs to consistently run under 5 sec to be competitive. The 6.60 sec El Prez I shot seemed pathetically slow compared to the 4.61 sec run Bob demonstrated during this portion of the class.
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/th_GKRElPrez_zps59fdcbdd.jpg (http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/GKRElPrez_zps59fdcbdd.mp4)
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/th_VogelElPrezsmall_zpsa343e1fd.jpg (http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/VogelElPrezsmall_zpsa343e1fd.mp4)

A fun serpentine zig-zag SOM drill conducted while weaving between 4 vertical barriers and placing 18 shots on two targets was up next. Once again the lack of steel slowed the class down. Using the same barriers and targets, a 16 shot barrier drill that requiring hard leans to both sides of each of 4 barriers was performed.

After that, a 28 shot, three station stage was run. In addition to multiple hostage/no shoots partially covering the targets, this stage also included hard leans, SOM, low ports and narrow ports.

Another drill involving dice was run next, although this time there were two dice and an array of 12 targets that had to be engaged depending on how the dice rolled. On the buzzer, the shooter dropped the 2 large dice. The two numbers that came up, as well as the sum of the two numbers were the three targets that were NOT shot during this drill. If a double was rolled, then the shooter did not shoot the number that was rolled, the sum of the two numbers, as well as a third target of their choice--typically the end target of the array. This required quick thinking and mental processing while simultaneously drawing and shooting.

After that we got to hose 12 targets with 1 shot to each body followed by 1 shot to each head. We than repeated the same drill, but this time shot 2 to each body, then one to each head.

Bob mentioned that he likes to finish a class with a test where shooters start with six rounds in the pistol, fire 2 shots at each of three targets, perform a slide lock reload, and then fire one shot to the head of a target. All A-zone hits are required and the fastest time wins. Unfortunately we did not get to run this event, due to time constraints.

Note that when clearing his pistol, Bob always racks the slide at least 2-3 times to ensure that no rounds from a magazine left in the pistol get chambered and missed.

I expended 321 rounds on the second day of the class, for a grand total of 679 rounds for the course.

This is the fourth event I have taken at Chabot. Alas, this class yet again highlighted the limitations of the facility, including lack of steel targets, inability to have targets arrayed at varying distances, no night shooting, only square range shooting (ie. only straight ahead target engagement), no shoot house capability, etc... Not to mention the distraction of USCG folks blasting away with two M240’s on the range next to us; although why someone would want to run through thousands of rounds of tripod mounted 7.62 mm belt fed on a 25 yd pistol range was a bit perplexing…

A variety of shooters of different skills were present including competitive, LE, CCW, and regular civilian recreational shooters. Interestingly, along with her LE officer husband, a female with a pronounced English accent and 26 years in law enforcement was among the top shooters in the class. Glocks were the most prevalent pistols, but a couple of HK’s, an M&P, a 1911, and an XDM that broke early on the first day were also in action. One shooter caught a squib round of Winchester white box 115 gr FMJ (Q4172) in the chamber of his G34; that lot of WWB ammo also had multiple light primer strikes/failures to fire when used in several different pistols. http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/WWB115grsquibinG34_zps00d7c8cf.jpg
The G19 with RMR06 in a Unity ATOM mount I used ran reasonably well, although I had a strange mid-string random failure to feed on each day. I wore a U.S. Armor Enforcer Classic LIIIa concealed vest during the class and had no issues with it while shooting any of the drills. While attempting to learn Vogel’s very appealing, yet aggressive grip style on the first day of class, I managed to break the Grip Force Adaptor I had on my pistol. This is the first time I have seen a GFA fail. I shot the rest of the class without the GFA; I’ll likely not replace the GFA on my pistol, as it did not seem useful when using the Vogel grip technique. The Vogel grip style definitely worked for me and is something I plan on incorporating into my shooting from now on.

Robert Vogel is a true gentleman and positive role model for developing shooters--highly approachable, without any juvenile antics or a prima donna ego interfering with his instruction. If you are looking solely to improve your ability to fight with a pistol, then training with Pat McNamara, Kyle Defoor, or Paul Howe might be appropriate. If you want pure LE pistol shooting and tactics training, then a HiTS course with Wayne Dobbs/Darryl Bolke or an ITTS class with Scotty Reitz is probably in order. Although this class with Robert Vogel emphasized practical competitive shooting, much like Todd Green’s courses, training with Bob would strongly benefit ANY intermediate or advanced shooter and can be highly recommended! I learned more about grip and pistol control in this class than in any training I have received in the past 25 years of shooting. I’ll definitely train with Bob Vogel again if the opportunity arises--ANY serious shooter would have to be daft not to want to learn as much as possible from a World Champion competitor as appealing, gracious, and generous as Bob Vogel.

VolGrad
11-03-2012, 01:27 PM
Excellent AAR. Thanks for taking the notes and time to type it up and post.

cclaxton
11-03-2012, 01:29 PM
This is a fantastic write-up...a MUST READ for anyone who wants to be a master shooter.
Thanks for taking the time and excellent content.

Cody
IDPA A48040

Kyle Reese
11-03-2012, 01:37 PM
Great AAR, Doc. Mr.Vogel is on my list of instructors I plan on training with.

ToddG
11-03-2012, 01:45 PM
A good friend of mine who is both a USPSA GM and full-time instructor for his large LE agency has also trained with Vogel extensively and echoes all the great things DocGKR has to say. Vogel is definitely on my list of people I'd like to take a class from.

JHC
11-03-2012, 02:08 PM
GREAT report thanks much!

I'm really interested in that approach to the support hand grip. And it's wicked cool somebody finally cleaned the walkback drill!!!!!

JSGlock34
11-03-2012, 02:36 PM
Excellent AAR - thanks for posting Doc.

Al T.
11-03-2012, 03:37 PM
Excellent write up. Thanks! :)


And it's wicked cool somebody finally cleaned the walkback drill!!!!!

Wonder if it wasn't a guy with a RDS equipped Glock? ;)

JHC
11-03-2012, 04:41 PM
Doc - on the support hand placement - does most of the support hand thumb's drumstick come down on top of the fingertips of the strong hand? (instead of just before them so it seats on the pistol frame/grip and butts up to the strong hand thumb drumstick. Or drumette.)

It seems like moving the support hand that much farther forward sort of "fixes" not locking the elbows out completely which Proctor wanted to break us of.

justcor
11-03-2012, 04:56 PM
I was at this class as well and I will share some of the video I shot during the class.

The Dice Drill

https://vimeo.com/52693034

The Zig-Zag drill

https://vimeo.com/52693134

This is one of the movement drills

https://vimeo.com/52696214

justcor
11-03-2012, 04:57 PM
Here are a few more.

Bill Drill @7 yards

https://vimeo.com/52762213

Bill Drill @15 yards

https://vimeo.com/52692365

Bill Drill @25 yards

https://vimeo.com/52692513

jlw
11-03-2012, 05:03 PM
Good report.

JHC
11-03-2012, 05:17 PM
Thanks for the vids justcor.

cclaxton
11-03-2012, 07:00 PM
Here are a few more.

Bill Drill @7 yards


At the very end of the 7 yard Bill Drill, Vogel says, "I'm not super good on these..." And, that was a 1 sec draw and 6 accurate shots in 1 sec....

Even if I just pulled the trigger as fast as I can, I don't think I can get 6 shots off in 2 sec, much less 1 sec.

Thanks for the videos.

CC

TCinVA
11-03-2012, 07:10 PM
Great writeup, Doc! I'm definitely on the lookout for an opportunity to train with Vogel.

CCT125US
11-03-2012, 07:42 PM
It looks like his support hand middle finger and index finger are actually touching the trigger guard?? Instead of index finger only, yes?

DocGKR
11-03-2012, 07:55 PM
It seemed like just index finger:
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7989&filename=Vogel%20R%20grip.jpg

DocGKR
11-03-2012, 08:25 PM
justcor--Thank you very much for the video links. It was a pleasure meeting you; great job LH AIWB with your Glock!

justcor
11-03-2012, 10:43 PM
Here is another version of the Zig-Zag drill.

https://vimeo.com/52693210

Also another version of the dice drill.

https://vimeo.com/52696270

Wendell
11-04-2012, 09:16 AM
http://www.vogeldynamics.com/training/ (http://www.vogeldynamics.com/training/)


Robert is available upon request for training. Whether you wish to reach the upper levels in the competition arena or just simply want to improve your shooting skills, he has something for you. For more information or questions on training with Robert please contact him with the following information.
(http://www.vogeldynamics.com/training/)


Type of training desired (http://www.vogeldynamics.com/training/)
Number of individuals (http://www.vogeldynamics.com/training/)
Level of experience (http://www.vogeldynamics.com/training/)
Location of training (http://www.vogeldynamics.com/training/)
Contact Information (http://www.vogeldynamics.com/training/)

Robert is available for private classes (at his location) with one or two students for $600 per day ($300.00 Each For Two Students) (http://www.vogeldynamics.com/training/)
Class size training will be on a case by case basis depending mostly upon location (http://www.vogeldynamics.com/training/)

(http://www.vogeldynamics.com/training/)

bbqbologna
11-04-2012, 09:55 AM
Awesome write-up. Thanks for taking the time.

kodiakpb
11-04-2012, 10:43 AM
Fantastic write up

Chris Rhines
11-04-2012, 12:11 PM
Good stuff, DocGKR! I always look forward to your writeups.

Robert Vogel is very much on my short list to train with. In fact, the idea of driving out to Ohio for a private lesson is interesting...

cutter
11-05-2012, 08:37 AM
Where does Bob post his class schedule?

DocGKR
11-05-2012, 10:25 AM
www.vogeldynamics.com

http://store.greygrouptraining.com/BOB-VOGEL/

JMS
11-05-2012, 02:29 PM
He mentioned that this aggressive hand positioning sometimes presses against the slide release and prevents the slide from locking back on the last shot

I'm encountering a variation of this. I shoot the M&P9fs, am a RH shooter, and recently discovered how much more stable things are when I get the social finger of my LH into the corner formed by the trigger guard and the social finger of my firing hand...vice my LH index finger in the same spot. That puts my support-hand index finger further forward on the trigger guard, but also puts that hand higher on the gun, and looks similar to what's shown in the 2nd image of your original post in this thread.

In my case, however, the meat at the base of my off hand thumb is occasionally impinging on the slide stop/release, but UPWARD, causing the gun to lock open in the middle of a string of fire.

Same circumstance occurred with a G19 sporting a Vickers slide stop, which ceased when I swapped back to the stock part. I don't have the option of going with a lower-profile slide stop/release with an M&P, soooo...

In my case, I found that pointing the support-hand thumb downward acts to pull the meat of the base of my off-hand thumb away from the frame, and therefore away from the stop/release. I'm not consistently applying it, yet, but given that this is about a 3-week-old experiment, I'm optimistic. The accuracy improvement under speed is something I can't argue with, and I think I'm on the right path to getting that AND decreased splits. Baby steps.

Doc, was the thumb-forward-and-down aspect discussed in that way at all, or was it simply a detail you noted? I'm finding the same gap between my hands at the butt of the gun that you mentioned, but my support wrist is also absolutely locked out...when I get it right in the first place...:p

DocGKR
11-05-2012, 03:34 PM
Vogel stated he was not too concerned with the exact position of this thumbs, as long as sufficient bilateral counter-torque was being applied to control the pistol and keep it as flat as possible in recoil.

joshs
11-05-2012, 04:55 PM
In my case, I found that pointing the support-hand thumb downward acts to pull the meat of the base of my off-hand thumb away from the frame, and therefore away from the stop/release. I'm not consistently applying it, yet, but given that this is about a 3-week-old experiment, I'm optimistic. The accuracy improvement under speed is something I can't argue with, and I think I'm on the right path to getting that AND decreased splits.

JMS,

I found the same solution. I've been shooting this way for about 2 years, and I haven't noticed any negative effects of having my thumb pointed downwards. My left hand isn't quite as high as I could get it, but any higher and I get occasional failures to lock back. I'd rather guarantee lock back than shave a few more hundredths off my splits.

1130

Wendell
11-06-2012, 10:32 AM
I don't have the option of going with a lower-profile slide stop/release with an M&P, soooo...

You might check with S&W on the availability of a narrower slide stop. When the M&P was first released it had a narrower profile.

That part might still be available.

GJM
11-22-2012, 02:14 PM
My wife and I spent the day Tuesday doing a private tutorial with Robert Vogel at his home range in OH. We each shot near 1,000 rounds and enjoyed our time with Robert a lot. Besides his instruction, seeing him demo each drill was extremely valuable in terms of showing what is possible. Highly recommended.

Biggest take away was Robert's thoughts on the ideal grip, with your dominant hand as aggressively high as possible, support hand as far forward as possible, along with torquing in with each hand to control recoil.

DocGKR
11-29-2012, 03:10 AM
FWIW, since incorporating Vogel's grip technique, I began to get premature lock-back when using the Vicker's slide releases. As a result, I have mostly gone back to Glock OEM ones and the problem has ceased. Likewise, I bent off two additional GFA's since the class, so have removed them from all my Glocks (although I still prefer the control and ergonomics the GFA offers). I have also begun taking out all the Vickers mag releases I had in preference of re-shaped Glock OEM extended ones, as these seem to offer much more positive mag drops for me.

1slow
12-05-2012, 02:34 PM
If you are training hard with the Captains of Crush grippers be careful not to overtrain and get tennis elbow type symptoms. BTDT. Think of the rest required between heavy deadlift days but for your hands.
For me age 55 about once every 5-7 days works well. I do other exercises that work my hands to a lesser degree other days, kettlebells etc.
I do 10 rep warm up on G-60lbs, S-80lbs, 5 rep warm up on T-100lbs.
I then go to my work sets of 5 reps each of #.5-120lbs, #1-140lbs, #1.5 167.5lbs, #2-195lbs.(partial closes)
What ever is the max weight I am working full closes with, I will do 5 sets of 5 reps with it. I rest 1-2 minutes between working the same hand and alternate L and R hand sets.
I am recovering from injuries and not very strong at this point but it is getting better.
YMMV.

JHC
12-05-2012, 02:43 PM
If you are training hard with the Captains of Crush grippers be careful not to overtrain and get tennis elbow type symptoms. BTDT. Think of the rest required between heavy deadlift days but for your hands.
For me age 55 about once every 5-7 days works well. I do other exercises that work my hands to a lesser degree other days, kettlebells etc.
I do 10 rep warm up on G-60lbs, S-80lbs, 5 rep warm up on T-100lbs.
I then go to my work sets of 5 reps each of #.5-120lbs, #1-140lbs, #1.5 167.5lbs, #2-195lbs.(partial closes)
What ever is the max weight I am working full closes with, I will do 5 sets of 5 reps with it. I rest 1-2 minutes between working the same hand and alternate L and R hand sets.
I am recovering from injuries and not very strong at this point but it is getting better.
YMMV.

From what I've read you ARE pretty strong if you're using #2 at all. ;) Although I've heard Vogel is up a good bit from there.

I just ordered one of these to start - after reading a bunch of reviews I picked the Trainer. I understood one had to be careful not to over train but I thought this meant not every day and figured 2-3 workouts a week. BIG help to read your prescription. The trusty 5x5 rule for strength building. Amazing rule.

Thanks much for posting this!

JHC
12-05-2012, 02:46 PM
FWIW, since incorporating Vogel's grip technique, I began to get premature lock-back when using the Vicker's slide releases. As a result, I have mostly gone back to Glock OEM ones and the problem has ceased. Likewise, I bent off two additional GFA's since the class, so have removed them from all my Glocks (although I still prefer the control and ergonomics the GFA offers). I have also begun taking out all the Vickers mag releases I had in preference of re-shaped Glock OEM extended ones, as these seem to offer much more positive mag drops for me.

That's interesting. Helps with comprehending this left side support clockwise torgue and dominant side counterclockwise torque. (does that sound right?)

It surprises me that precision - say to a low prob target at 10 yds plus is not more challenging with all this torque. I don't think I've figured this grip out yet freelancing it.

1slow
12-06-2012, 12:11 AM
JHC

Frequency depends on how hard you go. I used to use the weak sporting store grippers and do multiple sets of 100 reps 2-3 times a week. This is doable.
If you do heavy deadlifts you cannot recover as quickly as with light DL.
In 1993 I gave myself over use injuries by doing #2 grippers, pinch grip lifts, hub lifts, blob lifts 3 times a week. I had to lay off of heavy grip work for 12-18 months to heal.
Read the Ironmind catalog if you have a serious interest.

I am recovering from breaking both ulnar and radius near my right wrist end of March 2012, and finishing chemo around May 5. When the cast came off 6 weeks later I could not begin to close a 40lb gripper right handed. Now I am up to closing the #1 RH 5x5 working on the #1.5. LH I am closing 1.5 5x5 working toward #2. Orthopod pulled out T shaped stainless steel plate and 11 screws Tuesday. After a few weeks down I will build it back stronger.

Also work your fingers in extension with a rubber band etc...
Do not get in a hurry just keep at it.

JHC
12-06-2012, 09:28 AM
Thanks 1slow. The "Trainer" delivered yesterday. I can get 5 with my strong hand, and barely 1 weakhand! LONG way to go. I need to be patient as I've got a touch of tennis elbow (right side) now - I suspect from jumping into kettle bells this Fall with sloppy form and not using the hips enough with Russian swings. 2013 is the grip strength year.

I'm surprised at how much there is to learn about grip training. I thought I had a pretty good grip based on chinning with weight. But I guess all that grip does on lock on; not really crush like gripping a pistol.

Mr_White
12-06-2012, 12:12 PM
Thanks 1slow. The "Trainer" delivered yesterday. I can get 5 with my strong hand, and barely 1 weakhand! LONG way to go. I need to be patient as I've got a touch of tennis elbow (right side) now - I suspect from jumping into kettle bells this Fall with sloppy form and not using the hips enough with Russian swings. 2013 is the grip strength year.

I'm surprised at how much there is to learn about grip training. I thought I had a pretty good grip based on chinning with weight. But I guess all that grip does on lock on; not really crush like gripping a pistol.

I just restarted training on the Captains of Crush after overdoing it about five months ago. I had started with the Trainer and worked up to number 1.5, hit it too hard and hurt my dominant hand, which thankfully quit hurting right before AFHF. I laid off them until the other day.

Now taking it really easy, doing lighter warmup sets instead of jumping straight into trying hard to close one that I can't quite close, and doing it a bit less often. I started with the T again and am working my way back up. On the 1 now, which it tough for me to close since I have been off them.

Funny how working my grip slightly aggravates the tendinitis in my elbows.

cclaxton
12-06-2012, 12:30 PM
I ordered the Trainer and #1 back in October. I could not close the #1 at all with either hand. I could barely close the Trainer with my right hand. I could not close it with my left hand.
I started using them right away almost every day doing doing squeeze reps 10 at a time alternating hands, and finishing off with a long hold as much as I can close them. I kept them with me in the car...great when stuck in traffic. I repeated that about 6-8 times daily. Progress seemed very slow. And, I did feel some pain in my dominant elbow when I pushed it too hard....definitely avoid that.

As of about a week ago I saw significant improvement: Left hand can close Trainer for about 8-9 Reps, and hold it closed for about 20s, Right hand can close #1 for about 10 reps and hold closed for about 20s. I also notice that my ability to work them changes through the day. If I don't do them for 8 hours, I have to build back up to get a workout closing them. I recommend using them every few hours for just 10 reps so that you maintain your strength throughout the day. Mornings are hard, days are easier, night time is hard is what I have noticed for me.

Also, I recommend doing them together. I have a Lewistown Pistol Club Hand Towel with a shower ring that attached to the Trainer. I use the towel to keep the Grippers from tearing up my hands and it's always attached. I can get both Grippers in the towel, and holding both arms out, grip the Trainer with weak hand and #1 with strong hand at the same time. I can get more full closures and a better workout by squeezing them simultaneously. (Which is what you do when you shoot anyway). I am just now at the point where I can swap that arrangement around to get #1 workout on weak side.

For Christmas I hope to receive a #2. I guess I will find out if I need a #1.5, but I don't have to close them all the way to use them, so I am hoping the #2 will be good next step. I am also hoping to get a wrist-roller exerciser to build up forearm and wrist strength as well.

I have definitely noticed an improvement in recoil control through stronger gripping.

CC

JHC
12-06-2012, 12:44 PM
DocGKR - regarding the Vogel grip technique - have you applied it to other platforms like the M&P or 1911 and does it all work about the same?

DocGKR
12-06-2012, 04:22 PM
Works a bit better on the M&P than Glock. Works OK on the 1911. Not so much on Sig. Have not shot any HK's since the class, so don't know about them.

cookinjohn
02-10-2014, 08:44 PM
Many thanks!



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