On duty vs off duty guns - grip angles

[Vista461]

So of course after I get my optics ready M&P and have pretty much gone all in on M&P’s , and now I am likely going back to my old department later this year after almost 7 years with my current one.

I currently carry an M&P40 at work, M&P compacts and shields off duty. My old department issues Glocks.


Now I’m thinking with grip angle differences, I should probably go back to Glocks after switching departments for off duty use for consistency.

Anyone have to carry a Glock at work but something with a more 1911/M&P grip angle on their own time?

Or am I over thinking it? LOL

[KevH]

I think you're overthinking it.

When the Shield came out lots of guys carried Glocks on-duty and Shields off duty without issue.

That being said, it makes sense to have consistency across the board.

[Hambo]

Definitely overthinking. If officers survived carrying a duty 9mm and a j-frame BUG, you'll probably make it using a Shield off duty.

[MDFA]

Very best case we would all carry the company gun all the time, but we all know that isn't always the best answer for various reasons.

I think you'll be fine with the Shield.

Keeping your head in the game with situational awareness and good tactics will have more of an effect on your survival than caliber or gun model or brand.

[DaBigBR]

I shoot, carry, and train with a variety of guns with a variety of grip angles. Glocks, M&Ps, Walthers, 2011s, P365, etc. I do not see a huge difference between them nor a noticeable re-adaptation curve, if you will, when going from one to the other.

[Chuck Whitlock]

If you're not mandated by policy to use Glocks off-duty, use what works best for you.

[Vista461]

Thanks everyone!

[DocGKR]

Or just run a G19 all the time, duty and off-duty....

[MVS]

I used to carry different guns on duty vs. off. A lot of the guys carried our issue BUG gun off duty, S&W 638. That being said, these days if I was in that boat and I was using optics guns, I would go with the same grip angle. All of the guys saying it doesn't make a difference must be much better shooters than me. I just came off an IDPA season of using different guns including BUG no optic, and the angle definitely makes a difference for me especially in DTFS.

[Up1911Fan]

Dept gun is a Gen5 G17. On my own time I carry a custom
X-Macro chopped for 12 round XL mags.

[Jason M]

You may not be overthinking at all. I think it depends on the individual. For me, grip shape now seems to matter. In the past I have not seen too much of a difference between different guns. A timer has shown me that I was probably incorrect. I recently attended a class where time and score was very apparent. I ran a G19 with a LTT grip anchor and a G45. I was consistently better with the G19. Enough so that I traded my issued G45 for a G19. It works for both overt "on duty" carry and "off duty" covert carry. When I want/need smaller/ban state compliant characteristics, the G26 works just fine.

[Paul Blackburn]

In the best case scenario every time you put on a gun you do a few dry draws and presentations with it before leaving the house. That’s one benefit to having 2 of the same gun, having one for dry work you don’t have to load and unload everyday.

[Vista461]

The issue gun will be a G17 or G22 so whichever one I get I’ll have to carry that one on duty.
G17 will be my choice if given a choice, but I was fine with the G22 when I worked there the first time.
I still have my Gen3 G22 RTF2 that I bought from the dept when we went Gen4.

I suppose having a built in excuse to get a G19/G48 isn’t the worst thing in the world. ;)

[Chuck Whitlock]

I suppose having a built in excuse to get a G19/G48 isn’t the worst thing in the world. ;)

No, it isn't. The funny thing is that it isn't just the excuse to get a new gun. But then there's the extra mags, sights, grip work or other mods, holsters, mag pouches, etc. Those seem to wind up being the real expense. :cool:

[LukeNCMX]

If you train dry consistently with both there is no issue. If you don’t have that time, dry training with your duty gun and using a complimentary compact off duty is probably a good idea especially if carrying your duty gun is too hard to conceal or too uncomfortable to wear.

[Backspin]

I’m issued a P226. I’ve carried Glocks off duty for the vast majority of my career. I’ve been frustrated at the difference the grip angles made in my index even with frequent dry practice.

I reduced the hump on my Glocks by heating a flattening the backstraps to mitigate the issue. But since carrying red dotted off duty guns, the slight difference was still noticeable.

Recently I’ve finally been able to bridge the gap to my satisfaction by adding a layer of hook adhesive Velcro to the backstrap of the 226 so that my duty and off duty guns index practically the same. Personally, I’ve found it to make my dry practice more efficient (practicing with one gun has more carry over with the other).

[BK14]

Depends. What level of performance do you hold yourself to? If acing a qual is your standard, then sure you’ll probably be fine with switching platforms.

However, if you’re into “performance” shooting, which I’d assume if you’re here you are, then you’re hurting yourself somewhere. Your index between a Glock and M&P will be different. As will your trigger press. To a lesser extent how you manipulate the gun too.

Using the argument that just because someone has been doing something and getting away with it (Glock on duty, j frame as their off-duty) doesn’t mean that they’re optimizing their setup. When I “can’t carry a gun” I carry a ultralight revolver, but I accept the cost to performance for the ability to have some sort of a gun on me. For daily carry, I wouldn’t choose that handicap as my default.

While some people really can run different platforms to a high level, I know that for myself and most others, there will be some sort of a performance loss somewhere. What is that measured loss in performance, and is that worth it for you? Only you can decide that.

You can mitigate some things, like building up the M&P backstrap and using a GFA/chopped Glock beavertail, but the trigger, slide stop, etc will never be the same.

[awmp]

Carry Glock 45 red dot/light, then off duty 1911, M&P Compact red dot and others. The only thing it does it make me realize how much easier it is to shoot faster with almost anything other than a Glock due to the grip angle. I sure wish M&P had the following with LEO to make them more popular.

I remember several years when Texas DPS looked at going to M&Ps and the rumor was they had so many issues they dumped M&Ps and looked else where, what is really crazy is they went with Sig P320, wondering what they are thinking now, lol.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/texas-dps-ditches-sw-mp-handguns-reliability-issues-returns-sig-sauer/
https://www.texastribune.org/2014/04/17/dps-suspends-use-new-handgun-over-concerns/
https://www.policemag.com/weapons/news/15326322/texas-department-of-public-safety-selects-sig-p320-as-duty-handgun

[MD7305]

When I began in LE I was issued a DA/SA Sig 229 and mostly carried it or a G19 off duty. Later my department issued G22s and I carried a G23 off duty. For the last 7 years I've been issued an M&P full-size (40, then 9) and during that time I've carried either an M&P Compact or Shield.

In those early days I was single, no kids, and shot both the 229 and G19 frequently. I never noticed any issues. As life got busy with a growing family and less time available for shooting I decided to consolidate platforms to whatever I was issued, Glock, M&P, etc. My thought process was since my training time was limited, fundamentally whatever gun I was shooting, on or off duty, would benefit the other. Disclaimer, I'm not any sort of an incredible shooter but keeping things simple works for me. If tomorrow my department were to switch to Walther, HK, Glock, or whatever I would change my off duty.

[BehindBlueI's]

I suppose everyone has their own experience, but when pushing to the edges I found different grip angle on similar guns messed with my index.

I had no issue with, say a revolver and a Glock duty pistol, or even a double stack duty pistol and single stack BUG. I did have issues with two double stacks or two revolvers. I think my subconscious brain could readily tell the difference between the different gun types like it would a hammer vs screw driver, but when they both felt like a hammer I had more trouble. YMMV.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Fwiw, I found I did better staying with one platform - 5" 1911 & a Commander; 4.25" M&P & a Compact (both Gens) or a 4" Shield; and during my brief foray into Glocks, a 17 & a 19.

That's me. I've heard Pressburg talk about issues he experienced with shooting a Glock at his day job and a 1911 platform on weekends. That led to him (then) going all Glock.

If switching works for you, excellent, stay with it.

[BobM]

Not combat pistols but a related observation: I have a Ruger MkII I bought in 86 and a twenty or so year old 22/45. The 22/45 has been shot quite a lot more than the MkII since I bought it. A month or so ago I was shooting the MkII and noticed the different grip angle was throwing me off when trying to quickly acquire targets.

[UNM1136]

I see this issue as a tempest in a teapot.

You have to train for you.

I find that 10-15 minutes dry fire allows me to carry different guns at different locations. I know, I need to stay consistent so I don't get kilt on da streetz. A risk I am willing to take. G17.4 with RMR at work, LCR in 9mm when I don't want to carry a gun. Strong side hip, AIWB, and Enigma. I cycle through each weekly.

MY choice. You make your own.

pat

[jnc36rcpd]

I always preferred to stay with one system, not primarily for the grip angles, but for the manual of arms. I usually carried my SIG226 9mm, but occasionally utilized a 228. When my former agency transitioned to the .40, I stayed with the .40 version, very occasionally rolling with a 229 which wasn't really a help size or weight-wise. As I was a firearms instructor and felt I should display confidence in our weapons, I stayed with the FNS-9 when we adopted that, taking a deep breath and hoping for the best when I carried that off (or on) duty.

I tried this with back-up guns, initially using a SIG 239. I later transitioned to a Glock 27 and a 9mm Shield.

Today I roll with one flavor 9mm Glock or another. If they arm my retirement gig, it will likely be with that platform.

While I'm not a fan of switching systems for the sake of variety, I'd agree training and practice can largely reduce or eliminate any problem that might occur.

[sff70]

It’s gonna depend on you, more so than anything else.

Do some of the harder drills that have short time frames and high accuracy requirements (Gabe White standards, Scott Jedlinski standards, Bill Drill, FAST drill, Rob Leatham 5 in 5 at 25) and see how you do with different guns.

G17/19, 1911/2011 in multiple varieties, differences are quite neglible for *me*, when it comes to grip angle.

Been shooting the 1911/2011 and Glock platforms (and also Beretta and Sig 220/226/228) over the years in a professional capacity (and also personal) since 1990.

Early on I thought the grip angle (and also bore axis height) would be an issue, but never found that to be the case.

[Vista461]

Went to the range Sunday to finally shoot the Optics ready M&P compact I bought a little while back and to shoot the only Glock I have left, my first issued duty weapon, a G22 RTF2.

I ordered a new recoil spring for the G22 because I think it still had the original circa 2009 vintage one in it, but it didn’t arrive in time for the range trip.

The G22 recoiled more than I remember a G22 recoiling and a good bit more than my M&P 40 I use at my current department. The new recoil spring arrived yesterday. Holy cow was the old one worn out. The difference in racking the slide was huge between the two. Lol. Time for another range trip I guess.

Slow fire at the range was no big deal switching between the two platforms, I’ll have to speed things up and see if there’s an issue.

[Depmur]

Over the past 20 years I have carried some flavor of 1911 on duty and quite often off duty also. I occasionally carry a Glock 43 or 26 at times off duty when clothing or environment dictates something other than a hunk of steal hanging on your side. My normal range days include both platforms, 1911 and Glock 43/26 and recently I've introduced a Staccato C2 into the mix.

[Okwhatever]

We have glocks at work and I carry glocks except one 365xl, but the grip isn't far off from my 26. It takes a while to get used to my dad's m&p or buddies 2011. Prefer to stay the same across the board.

[GJM]

Thinking about this more lately, as I have been shooting Sig and Glock grip angles, I think the difference is a bigger deal with a red dot. A bit of misalignment with iron sights is not ideal, but is still workable. With the red dot, that misalignment might mean no red dot visible in the display.

[JCN]

I used to carry different guns on duty vs. off. A lot of the guys carried our issue BUG gun off duty, S&W 638. That being said, these days if I was in that boat and I was using optics guns, I would go with the same grip angle. All of the guys saying it doesn't make a difference must be much better shooters than me. I just came off an IDPA season of using different guns including BUG no optic, and the angle definitely makes a difference for me especially in DTFS.

It definitely matters to me. Sure, I can work around it… but I prefer not to.

If someone doesn’t notice a difference… it is because they don’t notice it, not because it isn’t there.*

To me, revolvers point like CZs and Sigs so all those are fair game for me if I get a choice.







*Note that’s a separate question from whether that difference matters in the context of a gunfight. For most people, probably not. But if I can avoid taking a drop in skill due to equipment confounding, I’ll choose that.

[Rex G]

I have, and still do prioritize point-ability. There is more to it, however, than just grip angle. Some pistols with the same grip angle will NOT all point the same, for elevation, in my hands. Some pistols with differing grip angles will point the same, for elevation, in my hands. A rounded-butt variant of a pistol may well point differently, for elevation, than a squared-butt variant of the same pistol design, in spite of both having the same grip angle.

A 1911 with a flat mainspring housing, S&W J/K/L/N-Frame revolvers, the old-school “Euro” P220, the SIG P226, the SIG P229, and Gen3/4/5 Glocks are examples of various handguns tht do point well, for elevation, in my hands. Not all of these have the same grip angles, on paper.

An “American” P220, and Gen1/2 Glocks do NOT point well, for elevation, in my hands, even though their grip angles match pistols of their respective brands in the preceding list.

[psalms144.1]

My experience only - despite hundreds of thousands of rounds through Glocks over decades, they still "point high" for me. This makes dot acquisition problematic, especially when shooting SHO and WHO. I do NOT experience this with 2011s or P365s that I've acquired within the last three years.

So, FOR ME, if I was required to carry a Glock on duty, I'd do my darndest to carry a Glock off duty. But, again, I'm just one guy, and find myself significantly more sensitive to grip angle issues than many.

[GJM]

My experience only - despite hundreds of thousands of rounds through Glocks over decades, they still "point high" for me. This makes dot acquisition problematic, especially when shooting SHO and WHO. I do NOT experience this with 2011s or P365s that I've acquired within the last three years.

So, FOR ME, if I was required to carry a Glock on duty, I'd do my darndest to carry a Glock off duty. But, again, I'm just one guy, and find myself significantly more sensitive to grip angle issues than many.

I agree that the Glock grip angle can be "a thing," especially with a dot, if you are used to other grip angles. Some work arounds:

1) shoot a Glock all the time

2) change the Glock grip angle with after market work (I don't like this option as it is too permanent and I have too many Glocks).

3) use your support index on the trigger guard which levels a Glock for me. Problematic if that isn't your normal grip or you want to use a light.

4) use a Shadow Systems lower with the 1911 back strap.

113698

[psalms144.1]

I agree that the Glock grip angle can be "a thing," especially with a dot, if you are used to other grip angles. Some work arounds:

1) shoot a Glock all the time

2) change the Glock grip angle with after market work (I don't like this option as it is too permanent and I have too many Glocks).

3) use your support index on the trigger guard which levels a Glock for me. Problematic if that isn't your normal grip or you want to use a light.

4) use a Shadow Systems lower with the 1911 back strap.

113698Or, since I'm retired and don't need to worry about meshing with issued gear, just shoot what you like. In my case, 2011s and 365s. The only Glock I have left is a commemorative "gifted" to me (it was presented at my Farewell, and I promptly cut a check to the team's morale fund for way more than a Glock costs).

ETA - of all your suggestions, that Shadow Systems lower is the most attractive to me. Are they reliable?

[GJM]

My Shadow System pistols have been reliable. I have heard of problems as they grew quickly, but believe those issues were in the slide/barrel. I quite like the Shadow lowers, and the changeable back strap that changes angle is icing on the cake. Hard to beat a G5 Glock upper.

[MVS]

My Shadow System pistols have been reliable. I have heard of problems as they grew quickly, but believe those issues were in the slide/barrel. I quite like the Shadow lowers, and the changeable back strap that changes angle is icing on the cake. Hard to beat a G5 Glock upper.

I guess I did not know their lowers worked with a Gen5 upper.

[GJM]

I guess I did not know their lowers worked with a Gen5 upper.

I believe a Gen 5 upper works on a Gen 4 lower, so it makes sense. I tried two Gen 5 19 uppers on two Shadow frames, and both worked.

[Clusterfrack]

My experience only - despite hundreds of thousands of rounds through Glocks over decades, they still "point high" for me. This makes dot acquisition problematic, especially when shooting SHO and WHO. I do NOT experience this with 2011s or P365s that I've acquired within the last three years.

So, FOR ME, if I was required to carry a Glock on duty, I'd do my darndest to carry a Glock off duty. But, again, I'm just one guy, and find myself significantly more sensitive to grip angle issues than many.

I have the same issue except the opposite. Glocks and CZs point naturally for me, while 2011/1911, some Sigs, and Berettas point low. To compensate, I have to break my elbows in a way that’s not as consistent.

[Vista461]

Well I used some of my payout for left over vacation and sick time, from my now former department, to pick up a new blue label G48 MOS w/ Night Sights.

Also ordered a JMCK holster today for it to sit in.

My work gun is a brand new Gen5 G17, so this is like the diet version.

I started on Jan 1 with my new/old agency. I had worked there until 7 years ago, when I went to my last place, now I’m back.