Hardcast vs mono-metal (buffalo bore DG) vs hornady dgs vs extreme penetrator

[SupaD00D]

So I’m fairly confused about hardcast ammo, why it doesn’t seem to be used for common intermediate rounds like 7.62x39 and 5.56, something about the velocity and pressure like gas cutting? (No clue what that is tbh)

Also, buffalo bore says it’s “not lead and doesn’t foul even polygonal barrels” but then says about the
Mono-metal dangerous game loads they made with Lehigh

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=571

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=54

“This new DG load will do anything our famed Item 21C will do, but with less smoke and with much cleaner burning, due to the hard cast bullet/lube used in Item 21C”

One of those links takes you to where they explain hardcast vs lead and hardcast is “not lead” and is fine to use in any gun and is non fouling, but then why the need for mono-metal, and saying less smoke and cleaner burning?

One thing I was confused about hardcast bullets, and only Hornady seems to do it, is why don’t more manufacturers just jacket a hardcast bullet in a copper clad steel jacket like Hornady does with DGS? This seems to be the best dangerous game bullet to me? Does that mess the penetration power up, or the trajectory of the bullet or something? And what about the copper clad steel jacket vs polymer coating? Does polymer coating make hardcast safe for any barrel, and does it affect performance? IIS HARDCAST like what BB uses in the outdoorsman ACTUALLY non fouling and safe in a Glock?

Sorry, total noob.

Also, is mono-metal from Lehigh the same as the copper in extreme penetrators, or does anybody know? I’m wondering what the point of the BB DG cartridges are if outdoorsman is supposedly so safe for any gun, and it just seems like a flat point extreme penetrator.
And I’ve asked enough questions, but is flat point or a wide flat point better? I just find it weird flat points penetrate further than round nose bullets anyway. Do they penetrate better than a standard spitzer rifle bullet too?

So questions summarized:
1)Why no hardcast in 5.56x45, etc?
2)Is hardcast, like BB Outdoorsman, actually not lead, safe for Glocks, and non fouling?
3)Why don’t more manufacturers make a Hornady DGS type bullet with hardcast core and copper coated steel jacket?
4)whats up up with polymer coated hardcast? Is it necesarry, and any negatives? Does it work in all guns?
5)Does anyone know what mono-metal is, and how BB DG (lehigh bullets) would compare to extreme penetrators? They just seem like a solid copper flat nose to me.
6)Flat nose vs wide flat nose vs round nose vs extreme penetrator vs standard rifle fmj “spitzer”

Thanks ya’ll and Im just really effin curious. Any exlertise to help answer these questions is greatly, greatly appreciated.

[Hambo]

https://www.americanhunter.org/content/top-5-monometal-soft-point-bullets/

Monometal is exactly what it says: one metal, i.e. solid copper vs. copper clad lead.

"Hard cast" gets thrown around a lot, and it's not nearly as important as some think. You can't fire cast bullets at jacketed bullet velocities.

Hornady DGS bullets start .366" diameter, which is considered medium bore in a safari rifle. Unless you're hunting Big 5 animals, you don't need it, which is why it isn't produced for every caliber. Even Hornady's production is limited.

The question you should be asking is this: what do I want to do with a gun/bullet combo? Then start looking at appropriate ammo.

[JTMcC]

"Hard cast" handgun bullets came about as a premier selection when expanding bullet tech was primitive, unreliable and untrustworthy.

Coupled with: handgun chamberings on larger/harder to kill animals are at a horsepower deficit compared to rifle chamberings meaning there may not (depending on the cartridge and the quarry) be enough reserve power to both expand the bullet AND drive it to and thru the vitals specially from undesirable angles.

So they eliminated the ability to expand (by casting a harder bullet), giving better more reliable penetration. That bullet design typlified by a Kieth style SWC eventually developed into the WFN (wide flat nose) and LFN bullets with large meplats. The large, flat meplat increases the internal damage done by the bullet and contributes to straight line penetration. Over say 80% meplat decreases penetration.

When people started shooting really large animals in Africa & other places it became evident that even hard cast bullets can deform at the nose on very heavy bone, that lead to the mono metal solids so as to not veer off track and get to the vitals. Non deforming monometals come with their own dissadvantages as they are very long for weight, compared to a lead based bullet, that limits powder capacity.

We still have to make the "expanding vs. solid" bullet choice based on cartridge and intended target, but it has changed somewhat in the middle ground because of the very good monometal expanding bullets. Limited expansion bullets also live in that middle ground, some, like the Swift A-frame have been used on very big animals with great results.

I have no clue about the screwdriver tip Lehighs but that is a very brief overview of where we were and where we are with handgun heavy hitting bullets.
This info also comes into play when people use underpowered cartridges against human size targets ie the 380's or even the full wadcutters in .38 Special revolvers. More horsepower makes it easy (with modern bullets) to have your expansion and still retain plenty of penetration so the topic is much more rare in "defense against humans" conversations.

[okie john]

Some jurisdictions, most notably California, require monometal bullets for hunting. They’re also proving to be extremely accurate and effective, but the legal thing drives most of their sales.

Pure lead has a Brinell Hardness Number (BHN) of about 5. Bullets made of it are soft and will foul at velocities much above 750 fps. “Hard cast” is an alloy of roughly 90% lead and the rest a mix of tin and antimony. Definitions of hard cast have changed over time, but today it’s typically a BHN over 18. A lot of cast bullets are also an alloy of those elements but with a BHN below 18.

Top speed for hard cast depends on how well the bullet fits the specific gun, but 2,000 fps is probably about right.

Gas cutting happens when the gas generated by the burning powder slips past the base of the bullet and scores the side of the bullet parallel to the rifling. It ruins accuracy and makes a mess of lead fouling inside the gun, so hard cast bullets often have a gas check, which is a copper cup that fits on the bottom of the bullet to resist gas cutting. This can raise the usable velocity of a hard cast bullet to about 2,500 fps.


1)Why no hardcast in 5.56x45, etc?

Velocity, plus the massive range in bore/throat/leade dimensions essentially rules them out for the 7.62x39 and 5.56 NATO. You could do it if you wanted, as long as you kept velocity below about 2,500 fps.


2)Is ha rdcast, like BB Outdoorsman, actually not lead, safe for Glocks, and non fouling?

Buffalo Bore is in the business of selling ammo. That will always color the information they provide. The line about fouling polygonal barrels goes back to an early issue with Glocks. People who didn’t understand how to fit a cast bullet to a Glock barrel got a lot of leading, which ruined accuracy. Glock issued a blanket recommendation against using cast, which stands to this day. People who fit cast bullets to Glock barrels don’t have these problems.

Every bullet fouls something. The bullet lube required to get cast bullets to work properly creates a significant amount of smoke, which leaves a greasy film on the gun.

You can go down any number of rabbit holes when it comes to cast bullets. If that’s your thing, then head over to https://castboolits.gunloads.com/.

Also, Outpost75 could answer a lot of your questions.


Okie John

[JTMcC]

There's also a lot of information here, as Okie John said, "if that's your thing":

http://www.lasc.us/ArticleIndex.htm

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

[Jim Watson]

A lot of advertising mumbo jumbo there.

"Monometal" in handgun ammunition means solid copper. Brass, bronze, beryllium copper, iron, steel, tungsten and uranium bullets are by definition armor piercing and effectively illegal.

"Hardcast" means lead with alloying material to harden it. Typically antimony, tin, and arsenic. It doesn't take a whole lot, Linotype at 84% lead, 12% antimony, 4% tin is about as far as it is worthwhile. Old wheelweights containing some antimony and a trace of arsenic can be heat treated nearly as hard as Linotype.
Bulk pistol bullets cataloged as "hardcast" are typically 92% lead, 6% antimony, 2% tin. Which can be thought of as half Linotype, half lead.

Jacketed bullet cores may be plain lead or alloyed. Antimonial lead cores made the .30 M1 173 gr boattail spitzer feasible.
Coated bullets are typically just "hardcast" bullets with the coating added. Plated bullets are swaged from plain lead and electroplated with copper.

Before smokeless powder and jacketed bullets, the big game hunter needed a really big big bore. Greener recommended the 8 bore firing a 2 ounce ball or even heavier bullet. There were all sorts of 19th century efforts to improve penetration; bullets with iron noses, hardcast type alloys, etc. Greener described hardening bullets by alloying the lead with mercury (!) but said type metal was simpler.

[JTMcC]

Some jurisdictions, most notably California, require monometal bullets for hunting. They’re also proving to be extremely accurate and effective, but the legal thing drives most of their sales.

Pure lead has a Brinell Hardness Number (BHN) of about 5. Bullets made of it are soft and will foul at velocities much above 750 fps. “Hard cast” is an alloy of roughly 90% lead and the rest a mix of tin and antimony. Definitions of hard cast have changed over time, but today it’s typically a BHN over 18. A lot of cast bullets are also an alloy of those elements but with a BHN below 18.

Top speed for hard cast depends on how well the bullet fits the specific gun, but 2,000 fps is probably about right.

Gas cutting happens when the gas generated by the burning powder slips past the base of the bullet and scores the side of the bullet parallel to the rifling. It ruins accuracy and makes a mess of lead fouling inside the gun, so hard cast bullets often have a gas check, which is a copper cup that fits on the bottom of the bullet to resist gas cutting. This can raise the usable velocity of a hard cast bullet to about 2,500 fps.



Velocity, plus the massive range in bore/throat/leade dimensions essentially rules them out for the 7.62x39 and 5.56 NATO. You could do it if you wanted, as long as you kept velocity below about 2,500 fps.



Buffalo Bore is in the business of selling ammo. That will always color the information they provide. The line about fouling polygonal barrels goes back to an early issue with Glocks. People who didn’t understand how to fit a cast bullet to a Glock barrel got a lot of leading, which ruined accuracy. Glock issued a blanket recommendation against using cast, which stands to this day. People who fit cast bullets to Glock barrels don’t have these problems.

Every bullet fouls something. The bullet lube required to get cast bullets to work properly creates a significant amount of smoke, which leaves a greasy film on the gun.

You can go down any number of rabbit holes when it comes to cast bullets. If that’s your thing, then head over to https://castboolits.gunloads.com/.

Also, Outpost75 could answer a lot of your questions.


Okie John

Amen to the bolded part and revolver manufacturers made the problem much worse by building cylinders with oversized throats.
This is (at least with the S&W's I've been around) much less a problem on newer guns. Love or hate the new production guns and the QC that goes into them, Late model Smith 44 mags have much better throat diameters. Going to a harder alloy to reduce leading (with oversize throats) can result in more leading.

Bottom line is, check your throat diameters in the cylinder ;)

[okie john]

Amen to the bolded part and revolver manufacturers made the problem much worse by building cylinders with oversized throats.
This is (at least with the S&W's I've been around) much less a problem on newer guns. Love or hate the new production guns and the QC that goes into them, Late model Smith 44 mags have much better throat diameters. Going to a harder alloy to reduce leading (with oversize throats) can result in more leading.

Bottom line is, check your throat diameters in the cylinder ;)

Here's a blast from the past that gets into all of that: https://www.angelfire.com/ga/alphaprecision/revolveraccuracy.html

Too bad Mr. Stroh is no longer with us.


Okie John