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View Full Version : I'm not much more than a 4MOA shooter



shootist26
11-02-2012, 01:48 PM
Gun is a 14.5" carbine, Aimpoint T1, standard chrome lined barrel and standard trigger. Ammo is pretty much any 55gr .223 or 5.56mm ammo I can get my hands on...PMC, Privi, Federal, etc.

If I take my time, really settle into a solid prone position, get into my NPOA, and be super careful...I can squeeze off a 4 MOA group on a good day. That's my personal best with the above combination. What sort of practical and realistic accuracy do you guys see with standard rack grade guns and bulk ammunition?

I have taken two basic classes just to learn the fundamentals of practical carbine shooting and manipulations, nothing special. Pretty much a good 75% of my time is devoted to pistol shooting. Unlike pistol shooting where I am competing several times a month, it is hard to gauge in person where my rifle skill stands in relation to other shooters. There are not a lot of rifle matches where I am.

Chemsoldier
11-02-2012, 02:51 PM
Gun is a 14.5" carbine, Aimpoint T1, standard chrome lined barrel and standard trigger. Ammo is pretty much any 55gr .223 or 5.56mm ammo I can get my hands on...PMC, Privi, Federal, etc.

If I take my time, really settle into a solid prone position, get into my NPOA, and be super careful...I can squeeze off a 4 MOA group on a good day. That's my personal best with the above combination. What sort of practical and realistic accuracy do you guys see with standard rack grade guns and bulk ammunition?

I have taken two basic classes just to learn the fundamentals of practical carbine shooting and manipulations, nothing special. Pretty much a good 75% of my time is devoted to pistol shooting. Unlike pistol shooting where I am competing several times a month, it is hard to gauge in person where my rifle skill stands in relation to other shooters. There are not a lot of rifle matches where I am.

Am I correct in thinking you have been to an Appleseed at some point? Some of your terminology indicates you did. If you want to practice those skills you could just buy some of the targets they sell (25 yard AQTs, Full Distance AQT targets and Red Coats) and do some informal competition with your friends. If you want to make it exciting everyone chips in a fiver with the winner taking the pot.

Targets: http://store.rwvaappleseed.com/page4.html



There is also the National Defense Match. It has courses of fire that range from 25-500 yards (obviously you can use scaled targets if you dont have a 500 yard range). This is a good mix of distances and accuracy requriements.

Overview: http://www.americanrifleman.org/blogs/shooting-national-defense-match/

More details on the match and its courses of fire: http://issuu.com/compshoot/docs/ndmflyer2011

One place you can buy targets, I am sure there are more:
http://www.nationaltarget.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mv+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=NT&Product_Code=NRA+NDM+5-120+(Bundles%2FLots+of+25)&Category_Code=HPR

shootist26
11-02-2012, 02:58 PM
Am I correct in thinking you have been to an Appleseed at some point? Some of your terminology indicates you did. If you want to practice those skills you could just buy some of the targets they sell (25 yard AQTs, Full Distance AQT targets and Red Coats) and do some informal competition with your friends. If you want to make it exciting everyone chips in a fiver with the winner taking the pot.

Targets: http://store.rwvaappleseed.com/page4.html



There is also the National Defense Match. It has courses of fire that range from 25-500 yards (obviously you can use scaled targets if you dont have a 500 yard range). This is a good mix of distances and accuracy requriements.

Overview: http://www.americanrifleman.org/blogs/shooting-national-defense-match/

More details on the match and its courses of fire: http://issuu.com/compshoot/docs/ndmflyer2011

One place you can buy targets, I am sure there are more:
http://www.nationaltarget.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mv+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=NT&Product_Code=NRA+NDM+5-120+(Bundles%2FLots+of+25)&Category_Code=HPR

yes I've been to an appleseed. I picked up 4 rifleman patches that day. lol. I didn't really have an issue shooting at 25yds.

I am better with my 10/22 than my ar15. But even the appleseed "rifleman" patch basically says you can shoot a 4 MOA group more or less.

Failure2Stop
11-02-2012, 03:04 PM
With your optic, ammo, and barrel, about 4 MOA is what I would expect from s prone position. You could probably cut that to 3 if you went to a magazine monopod prone.

Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.

Suvorov
11-02-2012, 03:25 PM
With your optic, ammo, and barrel, about 4 MOA is what I would expect from s prone position. You could probably cut that to 3 if you went to a magazine monopod prone.

Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.

Obviously given your SME status, I agree.

I think most people over estimate their own and/or their rifles accuracy. They expect an honest 1 MOA from an mass produced AR with mass produced ammo. The range where I belong and work, 99% of the guys shooting rifles are shooting from benches and don't do any better than this with a service grade AR and ammo. And if they do, it really doesn't matter because they are shooting from a 200lb concrete bench using a sled, which to me is the shooting equivalent of masturbation. When you actually start shooting from real world positions I would say a person who can hold 4moa with a service rifle to be doing a pretty good job.

Lately most of my rifle shooting has been concentrating on NRA service rifle positions from a stock Colt A2 and open sights, shooting XM193 ball. I consider it a good day if I can hold all 20 of my prone or sitting rounds in the center of a SR21 target at 100 yards (which is about a 6inch bull). I don't even come close from sitting or standing.

Keep working on the fundamentals and learn to call your shots. Try some match loads to see what kind of improvement you get.

Vinh
11-02-2012, 03:48 PM
I am never satisfied with my zeroes at 100 because I shoot 10 shot groups with XM193 from a 6920/16S and get 4 MOA results while the rest of the internet consistently shoots MOA or better with the same combination.

NETim
11-02-2012, 05:45 PM
Obviously given your SME status, I agree.

I think most people over estimate their own and/or their rifles accuracy. They expect an honest 1 MOA from an mass produced AR with mass produced ammo. The range where I belong and work, 99% of the guys shooting rifles are shooting from benches and don't do any better than this with a service grade AR and ammo. And if they do, it really doesn't matter because they are shooting from a 200lb concrete bench using a sled, which to me is the shooting equivalent of masturbation. When you actually start shooting from real world positions I would say a person who can hold 4moa with a service rifle to be doing a pretty good job.

Lately most of my rifle shooting has been concentrating on NRA service rifle positions from a stock Colt A2 and open sights, shooting XM193 ball. I consider it a good day if I can hold all 20 of my prone or sitting rounds in the center of a SR21 target at 100 yards (which is about a 6inch bull). I don't even come close from sitting or standing.

Keep working on the fundamentals and learn to call your shots. Try some match loads to see what kind of improvement you get.

Couldn't agree more. Once the rifle is zero'ed, get off the bench!

4 MOA shooting will wreak a lot of havoc downrange I'm thinking.

JSGlock34
11-02-2012, 05:47 PM
Vinh nailed it. The internet is replete with exaggerated claims.

I remember zeroing at the 100M line during a Vickers Tactical Advanced Carbine class at USTC. Larry had us using B8 targets - essentially a 5.5 inch bull. I had a shot about a 4 inch group (16" KAC SR-15E3, Aimpoint T-1, XM193) from the prone (using the magazine as a monopod). Larry commented that was about as well as you could expect to get out of that combination.

Honestly, my biggest challenges shooting at distance are my eyes. In my youth I had 20/12 vision; these days...not so much.

mizer67
11-05-2012, 07:20 PM
Gun is a 14.5" carbine, Aimpoint T1, standard chrome lined barrel and standard trigger. Ammo is pretty much any 55gr .223 or 5.56mm ammo I can get my hands on...PMC, Privi, Federal, etc.

If I take my time, really settle into a solid prone position, get into my NPOA, and be super careful...I can squeeze off a 4 MOA group on a good day. That's my personal best with the above combination. What sort of practical and realistic accuracy do you guys see with standard rack grade guns and bulk ammunition?

I have taken two basic classes just to learn the fundamentals of practical carbine shooting and manipulations, nothing special. Pretty much a good 75% of my time is devoted to pistol shooting. Unlike pistol shooting where I am competing several times a month, it is hard to gauge in person where my rifle skill stands in relation to other shooters. There are not a lot of rifle matches where I am.

Quit shooting crap ammo and your results will improve. I consider shooting for accuracy (or sometimes precision) with any mass produced factory 55 gr FMJ ammo a waste of time.

I realize reloading is not for everyone, especially for bottleneck rifle cartridges, but I haven't found a decent chrome lined 5.56mm AR yet that couldn't hold an average of 3, 10-round groups inside of 2.5" at 100 yards with a 69 gr SMK @ 2.25" OAL and 24 - 25 grains of RE15, usually well inside of a 2.5" average.

Little Creek
11-06-2012, 08:54 AM
Quit shooting crap ammo and your results will improve. I consider shooting for accuracy (or sometimes precision) with any mass produced factory 55 gr FMJ ammo a waste of time.

I realize reloading is not for everyone, especially for bottleneck rifle cartridges, but I haven't found a decent chrome lined 5.56mm AR yet that couldn't hold an average of 3, 10-round groups inside of 2.5" at 100 yards with a 69 gr SMK @ 2.25" OAL and 24 - 25 grains of RE15, usually well inside of a 2.5" average.

I believe most can shoot tighter groups off a bench than prone. That being said, I believe garden variety 55 grain ball is not the ammo to use when testing accuracy.

SLG
11-06-2012, 03:23 PM
I mostly agree with the above. However, the 10 or so personal and issued M4's I've had (11.5, 14.5, and 16") all shot right about 2moa with green tip. Some a little worse, none really any better, though buddies of mine have occasionally had legit 1moa guns issued to them. Pure chance, and they were above average shooters to boot. Green tip is not exactly accurate stuff, but I would be disappointed if my gun didn't produce 2moa with whatever my duty load was. I have a chrome lined Centurion Arms upper that is a 1moa gun with good ammo, no idea what it will do with green tip. If you want more accuracy out of a chrome lined gun, I'd go to Monty. Very reasonable prices and excellent quality.

Odin Bravo One
11-06-2012, 09:08 PM
I don't expect better than TRUE 4 MOA accuracy out of that configuration. I know I can do better (not just on the internet) and like SLG, have personal guns/ammo combinations that shoot much better. But on any given run of the mill day, straight out the gates, cold bore, I might get miffed or pout at a 4 MOA performance, but I will take 4 Minute accuracy @ combat carbine distances ALL DAY LONG if the other end of the range consists of people shooting back.

ETA: also concur with SLG's recommendation on Centurion Builds. No, he is not big name. No he doesn't build a ton of guns. But I absolutely trust his guns for hard, real world use, to save mine or someone else's life. Monty builds good stuff, and has been off to see the elephant a few times so he knows why what he builds matters to his customers.

Kyle Reese
11-07-2012, 11:02 AM
I don't expect better than TRUE 4 MOA accuracy out of that configuration. I know I can do better (not just on the internet) and like SLG, have personal guns/ammo combinations that shoot much better. But on any given run of the mill day, straight out the gates, cold bore, I might get miffed or pout at a 4 MOA performance, but I will take 4 Minute accuracy @ combat carbine distances ALL DAY LONG if the other end of the range consists of people shooting back.

ETA: also concur with SLG's recommendation on Centurion Builds. No, he is not big name. No he doesn't build a ton of guns. But I absolutely trust his guns for hard, real world use, to save mine or someone else's life. Monty builds good stuff, and has been off to see the elephant a few times so he knows why what he builds matters to his customers.

Another shameless plug for Monty. He built me a MK12 Mod 1 upper a few years ago and it's surpassed my expectations in every way. It's the last upper I'd ever part with.

iakdrago
11-07-2012, 11:48 AM
This is something that i've been trying to fight for a while. I have a similar set up to the OP, and fluctuate from 2-4 MOA. Lately--i've been closer to 4 MOA, while shooting from prone. I shoot almost m855 and wolf 62 grain ammo almost exclusively. The accuracy difference between the two for me is about .5-1MOA (with my setup). The conclusions that i made are as follows:

When dealing with surplus ammo/rifle, expect the military accuracy standard--which is seldom in the 1-2 MOA range.

At the same time, i can ping an 8 inch plate at 100 yards from the kneeling position all day long.

Not to de-rail the topic, but this makes the issue of accuracy between ak74 and AR15 moot when evaluated based on service ammo.

***NOTE: all my semi auto rifles are now AR15s.

I would appreciate if anyone with experience could chime in.

Odin Bravo One
11-07-2012, 01:31 PM
When dealing with surplus ammo/rifle, expect the military accuracy standard--which is seldom in the 1-2 MOA range.

The requirement is 4 MOA over gun on green tip.

mizer67
11-07-2012, 07:27 PM
The requirement is 4 MOA over gun on green tip.

Green tip sucks.

Usually you can count on it to go bang, though.