Shotguns in modern military combat

[TCinVA]

This is an excellent video which describes the use of the shotgun in a portion of American SF during the GWOT era:


https://youtu.be/wEFKFaDYaWI?si=KNPzjhTcerCuNfTj

Mostly what you would expect, guns used as breaching tools. But they were also used as primary weapons in expected close quarters situations.

The repeating shotgun has been involved in most of the fights the US has been involved with since its invention. It was used effectively in the Philippine campaign as it turned out to have actual stopping power. It was used to a limited extent in WWI where the paper ammunition was a problem, ultimately breeding all brass shells. Of course it saw use in WWII and Vietnam as well.

Most don't know that the shotgun was even active with Taskforce Ranger. When I did 1301 armorer training the instructor was in Taskforce Ranger and related that Somalis would swarm vehicles and shotguns loaded with buckshot proved effective at peeling them off without harming personnel inside the vehicles.

But it's neat to see some firsthand information about GWOT era use and combat with the shotgun. Note that Jeff discusses the effective dose of the 12 gauge vs. 5.56 multiple times.

[DDTSGM]

In watching him explain the dry hull/hole technique I wondered if they ever had any problems with the 870's self-cycling and perhaps partially ejecting the fired hull causing a FTE when dashing using that technique.

[RevolverRob]

Brad Halling had this post on the a couple of days ago on the anniversary. This was him ~3 days prior to the Battle of Mogadishu. Peep the wall behind him.

p/Cx29Y8yLVs0

[03RN]

If I ever have to fight through a city again I want a 1014 again.

[jaxman7]

Brad Halling had this post on the a couple of days ago on the anniversary. This was him ~3 days prior to the Battle of Mogadishu. Peep the wall behind him.

p/Cx29Y8yLVs0

Speaking of Brad Halling, if you haven't seen his recent Black Rifle Coffee Co. video about Gothic Serpent it is excellent.

https://youtu.be/yXFycByi1vE?si=mGCm4UmhuCmDSPWX

[Caballoflaco]

The Iraqi Army carried shotguns to help them deal with drones when they were fighting ISIS and both sides in Ukraine have been dragging whatever shotguns they can find to the front to try to help them deal with the constant drone threat. Like usual, while we know this is happening it’s a lot harder to figure out just how effective they actually are.

I’m no fortune teller, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a role for other than cylinder choked shotguns loaded with something like heavy goose loads in the future conflicts where small lower-altitude drones are a threat.

[PNWTO]

If I ever have to fight through a city again I want a 1014 again.

Somehow our RP was issued a 1014 but the dude had a shining for the crew-server’s so we’d always take him along on presence patrols and trade the shottie off him.

Haven’t thought about that dude in a while; he’s either a Pentecostal preacher now or a serial killer.

[Lester Polfus]

Haven’t thought about that dude in a while; he’s either a Pentecostal preacher now or a serial killer.

You say that as if “both” wasn’t an option…

[Borderland]

Lets just arm the US military with shotguns instead of rifles.

For some reason I don't think that would excite any military professionals with combat experience.

[HCM]

You say that as if “both” wasn’t an option…




https://youtu.be/auccmqO45a8?si=f58dBm4P5Aw2r-cz

[Paul Blackburn]

It's odd that SF would get full size shotguns for breeching. Looks like the shockwave/tac14 style would have been ideal especially considering you're still carrying a rifle as primary.

The 590A1 would be way to cumbersome to carry as a breeching tool in addition to carrying a carbine.

[Hambo]

In watching him explain the dry hull/hole technique I wondered if they ever had any problems with the 870's self-cycling and perhaps partially ejecting the fired hull causing a FTE when dashing using that technique.

At one point that was how our department mandated shotguns to be used/carried. I never got fully habituated to it.


It's odd that SF would get full size shotguns for breeching. Looks like the shockwave/tac14 style would have been ideal especially considering you're still carrying a rifle as primary.

Not everybody gets the newest shiny toy.

[SwampDweller]

Surprised to hear the 590 had problems, but I bet some Wolff magazine springs would've fixed that and a Vang Comp stainless magazine follower.

I can tell he likes 870s but I've just had so many QC issues with ones from the past 20 years that I just can't trust them.

[Paul Blackburn]

Surprised to hear the 590 had problems, but I bet some Wolff magazine springs would've fixed that and a Vang Comp stainless magazine follower.

I can tell he likes 870s but I've just had so many QC issues with ones from the past 20 years that I just can't trust them.

Can't help but wonder if the other part of the problem wasn't that they were using a full-size shotgun for breeching duty.

[JSGlock34]

There was this noteworthy use of the Benelli M4 by the British...good thing someone had their PACT timer along for the raid.

SAS hero with shotgun 'kills five ISIS fighters including two wearing suicide vests in just seven seconds during raid on jihadi bomb factory in Iraq' (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7465523/SAS-hero-shotgun-kills-five-ISIS-fighters-just-seven-seconds.html)

[idahojess]

There was this noteworthy use of the Benelli M4 by the British...good thing someone had their PACT timer along for the raid.

SAS hero with shotgun 'kills five ISIS fighters including two wearing suicide vests in just seven seconds during raid on jihadi bomb factory in Iraq' (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7465523/SAS-hero-shotgun-kills-five-ISIS-fighters-just-seven-seconds.html)

I love this photo and caption in the article:

110291

[Lex Luthier]

I love this photo and caption in the article:

110291

It should be captioned “ Glock” for the full effect.

[TCinVA]

Surprised to hear the 590 had problems, but I bet some Wolff magazine springs would've fixed that and a Vang Comp stainless magazine follower.

Most definitely. One of the biggest issue with Mossberg non-590's is that you have to remove the magazine tube to replace the spring. Thus the 590 as a military spec...but you still have to actually replace the magazine springs as preventative maintenance, and almost nobody does that.

The Mossberg also has an incredibly thin and delicate magazine tube that can dent, twist, or kink if you look at it funny.



I can tell he likes 870s but I've just had so many QC issues with ones from the past 20 years that I just can't trust them.

At the inaugural Rangemaster Shotgun Instructor class back in 2016 I was discussing the state of affairs in shotguns with others in the class and we all concluded that if we needed a shotgun off the shelf to depend on right then it would probably be a 1301.

...you know, back when 1301's could be had for around $1,000.

$500 or so for an 870 that maybe worked, or double that for a 1301 that would. Fairly easy choice.

[Lester Polfus]

It should be captioned “ Glock” for the full effect.

12mm Glock.

[revchuck38]

Surprised to hear the 590 had problems, but I bet some Wolff magazine springs would've fixed that and a Vang Comp stainless magazine follower.

I got rid of the stock magazine spring in my 590A1 and replaced it with one of the Brownell's cut-to-length springs and found I couldn't get it to hold eight rounds anymore. Now it's a reliable 7+1 gun.

[SCCY Marshal]

I got rid of the stock magazine spring in my 590A1 and replaced it with one of the Brownell's cut-to-length springs and found I couldn't get it to hold eight rounds anymore. Now it's a reliable 7+1 gun.

They aren't really reliable 8+1 guns, anyway. Long-crimped shells might barely fit 8 or "just" 7 in the tube as they come.

[Paul Blackburn]

Maybe Vangcomp or Aridus can make a stronger magazine tube?

[DDTSGM]

Maybe Vangcomp or Aridus can make a stronger magazine tube?

Doubt that there would be enough demand.

We had four or five 500 Mariners, a couple 590's and a 590A1 in our training shotgun stable. The 500's were for poo, 590's were okay. Had to replace mag springs in all of them. These were training shotguns, we did drop/discard transition training with the shotgun, so our shotguns hit the ground more than most shotguns probably do, never had problems with magazine tube integrity that I recall.

[gato naranja]

Surprised to hear the 590 had problems, but I bet some Wolff magazine springs would've fixed that and a Vang Comp stainless magazine follower.

I can tell he likes 870s but I've just had so many QC issues with ones from the past 20 years that I just can't trust them.

They both have had their share of issues. I will go out on a limb and say that out here in the Land o' Laughable Shotguns, there are more late-model Mossbergs with problems than anything simply because a crapload of them get sold to the booboisie.

[TCinVA]

I have had quite a few NIB Mossberg 590 pump guns show up to class with serious issues. One poor soul went hard in the paint on shotguns for home defense when the social unrest kicked up and he came to class with a 930 and a 590. The 930 had to be mortared 3 times in the first 10 rounds and then locked up so hard I couldn't even mortar it.

His 590 made it to about 20 before the action locked up so hard the pump couldn't be manipulated anymore. The stamped steel parts seem like a great idea as long as they are stamped correctly and get properly cleaned up...which, unfortunately, doesn't always seem to be the case.

I have seen relatively few new production 870's show up...obviously, given the timing...but the ones I've seen have been functioning well.

[TCinVA]

Maybe Vangcomp or Aridus can make a stronger magazine tube?

The diameter is set essentially by the threading in the receiver. You could put a more robust magazine tube on the gun, but that would require replacing the forend and associated parts as well. And as already stated, the number of people who even understand that there is a potential issue there is so infinitesimally small as to ensure you'd never make your investment back in sales.

[LHS]

I've seen plenty of issues with both 500/590s and 870s over the years. They seem to go in cycles of OK/bad/OK QC.

Couple years back, I remember seeing someone bring a brand-new (literally first rounds fired) 590 Retro to a shotgun match. Every time he ran the action, it would spit a round out of the loading port onto the ground, and feed another into the chamber.

I can't count how many FG-era 870s I've seen with chambers so rough that they had to be mortared every couple rounds, even with good ammo (they didn't run at all with cheap crap).

Anything that's been in production that long, under so many differing regimes, er, 'leadership teams', is going to have an era of lemons.

[Greg Bell]

I know this is a loaded question, but has anyone seen if the new production 870s are still junk? My 870 is a surplus 870 police that I have SBS'd and it is awesome. I shoot so much cheep crap though it I once jammed the safety up with the plastic powder from the shells. I have a Ben M4 also but I really love my pump actions. Despite owning piles of modern rifles I still keep the 870 handy for GP issues.

[Paul Blackburn]

The diameter is set essentially by the threading in the receiver. You could put a more robust magazine tube on the gun, but that would require replacing the forend and associated parts as well. And as already stated, the number of people who even understand that there is a potential issue there is so infinitesimally small as to ensure you'd never make your investment back in sales.

Maybe just a harder grade of steel tubing?

[LHS]

I know this is a loaded question, but has anyone seen if the new production 870s are still junk? My 870 is a surplus 870 police that I have SBS'd and it is awesome. I shoot so much cheep crap though it I once jammed the safety up with the plastic powder from the shells. I have a Ben M4 also but I really love my pump actions. Despite owning piles of modern rifles I still keep the 870 handy for GP issues.

They seem to be better than most of the FG-era stuff, from the limited number I've seen come through.

[feudist]

They both have had their share of issues. I will go out on a limb and say that out here in the Land o' Laughable Shotguns, there are more late-model Mossbergs with problems than anything simply because a crapload of them get sold to the booboisie.




Now you dun dunnit.


:cool:

[awp_101]

I know this is a loaded question, but has anyone seen if the new production 870s are still junk? My 870 is a surplus 870 police that I have SBS'd and it is awesome. I shoot so much cheep crap though it I once jammed the safety up with the plastic powder from the shells. I have a Ben M4 also but I really love my pump actions. Despite owning piles of modern rifles I still keep the 870 handy for GP issues.


They seem to be better than most of the FG-era stuff, from the limited number I've seen come through.
How does one tell if a vendor (especially online) is selling actual new production vs trying to move old Freedom Group stock?

I have a 20 year old 870 and need to decide if I want a second 870 or go in for a pair of 590s.

[DDTSGM]

How does one tell if a vendor (especially online) is selling actual new production vs trying to move old Freedom Group stock?

I have a 20 year old 870 and need to decide if I want a second 870 or go in for a pair of 590s.

Find one at a pawn shop or used at an LGS and then:

https://storage.googleapis.com/wilsoncombat/custom_work/wc_shotgun_custom_work.pdf

[Paul Blackburn]

What years specifically was the freedom group era?

[awp_101]

Find one at a pawn shop or used at an LGS and then:

https://storage.googleapis.com/wilsoncombat/custom_work/wc_shotgun_custom_work.pdf

That thought has also crossed my mind but more as a last resort. Around here most places want new prices for used firearms.

[jandbj]

How does one tell if a vendor (especially online) is selling actual new production vs trying to move old Freedom Group stock?

I have a 20 year old 870 and need to decide if I want a second 870 or go in for a pair of 590s.

110417

Looks like you’ll be asking the serial number from an online vendor.

Both of my demo guns from them bear RAS serial numbers.

[awp_101]

110417

Looks like you’ll be asking the serial number from an online vendor.

Both of my demo guns from them bear RAS serial numbers.

Thanks!

[TCinVA]

What years specifically was the freedom group era?

Everything from the late 2000's up through the recent bankruptcy reorganization.

[Bigghoss]

Not sure what gives with Mossbergs but I hear so many stories of weak mag springs. I know most of that is just people not replacing them but I don't think I've heard of it with any other shotguns even though it should ne just as prevalent. I was very fortunate to accumualte several Mossberg pumps before 2020 when you used to be able to find them at pawn shops on the regular for ~$150. Every single one got a full field strip and clean plus new mag spring and a few of them got aftermarket followers. I got an 835 for $125 once because it was full of sawdust so the action was more sluggish than an 80's GM diesel car. Wouldn't ya know it, they usually work pretty well when you do the maintenance. But it does seem like the Mossbergs are less tolerant of neglect than a good 870. Or maybe it's just Mossbergs are more common in the US military where the absolutely do not get taken care of. I've also crushed a couple mag tubes trying to unscrew them. Yeah, maybe if replacing critical consumable parts requires removing parts of the gun you shouldn't glue those parts in. If Mossberg would put a couple flats on the end of the tube to put a wrench on it would be very helpful.

[okie john]

I’m no fortune teller, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a role for other than cylinder choked shotguns loaded with something like heavy goose loads in the future conflicts where small lower-altitude drones are a threat.

Agreed. The resulting ammo R&D surge will have wonderful trickle-down effects for folks who hunt the heavier types of game normally taken with a shotgun like geese, turkey, deer, coyotes, etc.


Okie John

[LHS]

Agreed. The resulting ammo R&D surge will have wonderful trickle-down effects for folks who hunt the heavier types of game normally taken with a shotgun like geese, turkey, deer, coyotes, etc.


Okie John

Interestingly enough, the original FliteControl wad was spurred on by the need to more tightly group steel shot in goose loads to accommodate for the lack of mass in the material.

[okie john]

Interestingly enough, the original FliteControl wad was spurred on by the need to more tightly group steel shot in goose loads to accommodate for the lack of mass in the material.

Here's hoping that Federal DroneDropperTM is next.


Okie John

[1slow]

Here's hoping that Federal DroneDropperTM is next.


Okie John

Punt gun, drone dropper ?

[03RN]

I once taught a week long class in the Philippines and the day before I inspected the shotguns. All m500s. They did not look like they would last. They were rusty and some of the wood was held together with wire. They looked like they were from ww2.

I lock tighted the ejector and besides the occasional short stroke they all worked fine. Color me shocked.

I've always been confident in 590s but those 500s sure did a lot of work.

[awp_101]

In the spirit of looking at used 870s, does anyone recognize this stock marking? Somebody’s State Police?

110533

[DDTSGM]

Shore Patrol?

Self Protection?

State Police?

Stock Protector? (as in a store's stock)

SP ain't a lot to go on.

[awp_101]

SP ain't a lot to go on.
I know, but there's been a couple of batches of LE turn ins for sale at places like AIM Surplus so I was hoping someone might have seen it one one of those trade ins. Something of a Hail Mary on my part but it's the only play I've got...:D

[Caballoflaco]

1720861339021725850

[jetfire]

As a relevant note, the USAF still trains with, maintains, and even occasionally issues the M870 MCS to our Security Forces troopers. I armed up with one a couple of times on my last deployment for certain missions.

[idahojess]

1720861339021725850

Mossberg 930, right?

[LHS]

As a relevant note, the USAF still trains with, maintains, and even occasionally issues the M870 MCS to our Security Forces troopers. I armed up with one a couple of times on my last deployment for certain missions.

Y'all using the typical Olin-mfg 00 buck?

[jetfire]

Y'all using the typical Olin-mfg 00 buck?

Probably. TBH I haven't seen our duty ammo in a while, our training ammo is Olin frangible buck. The last time I armed up with a shotgun the rounds weren't in a box.

Actually that's not true, the last time I carried a shotgun I had our less lethal load out

[awp_101]

Here's hoping that Federal DroneDropperTM is next.


Okie John

Belgian Air Force Taps Benelli M4s for Drone-Busting Duty (https://www.guns.com/news/2023/11/28/belgian-air-force-taps-benelli-m4s-for-drone-busting-duty)

111941

[Tokarev]

Somewhat related. Does anyone have experience with this MAC 1014?

https://milarmamentcorp.com/mac-1014-wood/

James from TFB TV is known for killing the Turknelli copies. Supposedly the MAC version is better than previous products.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

[Caballoflaco]

Mag fed shotgun used to shoot down down a Russian FPV drone in Ukraine.
1735583306211541093

[willie]

In many conversations with former Vietnam War infantry grunts, my small sample showed that the Marine Corps sometimes issued an Ithaca M-37 shotgun within a platoon. Army grunts never recalled seeing shotguns in the field. My comments are fyi only since we can't draw conclusion from them.

[rcbusmc24]

Carried a Mossberg 590 along with my M16A4/203 on many a Husaybah Iraq foot patrol in 2004... being one of two in the platoon who "spoke" shotgun fluently had its benefits.... and deficits, like figuring out how to manage two long ass fixed stock guns at the same time. Iraqis did not like when you pointed that big ass bore at them tho, worth it just for that...

[dogcaller]

Belgian Air Force Taps Benelli M4s for Drone-Busting Duty (https://www.guns.com/news/2023/11/28/belgian-air-force-taps-benelli-m4s-for-drone-busting-duty)

111941


With steel shot. Why steel? Environmental concerns…?

[awp_101]

With steel shot. Why steel? Environmental concerns…?

Are hardened drones a possibility?

https://i.postimg.cc/fbKYBCVP/giphy.gif

[Lost River]

In many conversations with former Vietnam War infantry grunts, my small sample showed that the Marine Corps sometimes issued an Ithaca M-37 shotgun within a platoon. Army grunts never recalled seeing shotguns in the field. My comments are fyi only since we can't draw conclusion from them.

The M37 is a very slim and smooth shotgun. I keep one in the Lost River Casa (along with my Browning A-5). Mine is the Featherlight Deerslayer version. They have a bit of recoil with full power buck and slug loads, due to the lightweight and slim design, but it is a very nice handling little gun. Great gun for traveling as well.


https://i.imgur.com/vGbLObDh.jpg

[Cory]

The M37 is a very slim and smooth shotgun. I keep one in the Lost River Casa (along with my Browning A-5). Mine is the Featherlight Deerslayer version. They have a bit of recoil with full power buck and slug loads, due to the lightweight and slim design, but it is a very nice handling little gun. Great gun for traveling as well.


https://i.imgur.com/vGbLObDh.jpg

Gorgeous gun.

As an National Guard MP my unit had a a few different variations of the Mossberg. Pistol grip and fixed stock. Some with full length tubes, and some without. They were rarely out of the armory, and I only recall us shooting them for a familiarization, never really a qual. Defnitely never saw, used, or carried down range. In general, I'd say they were pretty forgotten. I think they were 500s and 590s but couldn't swear to it. When it came time for yearly maintenance only a few of us rednecks knew how to remove the barrel and bolts.

[Rick R]

In many conversations with former Vietnam War infantry grunts, my small sample showed that the Marine Corps sometimes issued an Ithaca M-37 shotgun within a platoon. Army grunts never recalled seeing shotguns in the field. My comments are fyi only since we can't draw conclusion from them.

My dad was in the Army in the Korean War and used a Winchester M-97. To hunt pheasants.
He and a couple of other country boys borrowed the guns and whatever flavor buckshot from the MPs on base. He was not impressed with that ammo for hitting flying birds.

Dad’s Army/war stories were like a mix of Joseph Heller and Andy Griffith.

[MTP]

With steel shot. Why steel? Environmental concerns…?

Possibly (probably?) due to environmental concerns and regulation. The use and transport of lead shot in/around wetlands was banned EU-wide (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2021/57/oj) earlier this year. The way "in/around wetlands" was defined is generic enough that it would be hard to find a place where it is actually legal to use lead shot, for any purpose.

[revchuck38]

Possibly (probably?) due to environmental concerns and regulation. The use and transport of lead shot in/around wetlands was banned EU-wide (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2021/57/oj) earlier this year. The way "in/around wetlands" was defined is generic enough that it would be hard to find a place where it is actually legal to use lead shot, for any purpose.

While I'm sure that's possible, my thinking is that waterfowl load development has been centered on steel loads, and sniping drones seems to be a shooting problem most similar to waterfowl hunting. That's pure supposition on my part, but hey, that's what we do here. :cool:

[dtw]

Yeah, steel sucks. Lead is much better for "longer" range wing shooting but it's forbidden for waterfowl.

Alternatives are bismuth and tungsten shotshells, but they're very expensive.

With the increasing prevalence of drone warfare/surveillance, seems that there's an opportunity for a shot shell manufacturer to market a specialized lead anti drone load.

[Hambo]

With steel shot. Why steel? Environmental concerns…?

Probably using waterfowl loads. If I were sourcing anti-drone guns, they would be Benelli SBE3s, Nordic Extension for 9-10 round capacity, a Patternmaster (or similar quality) choke tube, and 3.5" HEVIshot.

[gato naranja]

Eagerly awaiting someone suggesting "bolo" buckshot as the new rotor-destroying anti-drone round.

[Borderland]

Obviously we're talking about very small drones. Why can't you kill them with a rifle? Are they too fast? IDK, never been around a drone of any type.

https://www.wuft.org/news/2023/10/09/man-who-shot-down-police-drone-with-22-caliber-rifle-pleads-guilty-faces-fine-and-jail-time/

[Caballoflaco]

Probably using waterfowl loads. If I were sourcing anti-drone guns, they would be Benelli SBE3s, Nordic Extension for 9-10 round capacity, a Patternmaster (or similar quality) choke tube, and 3.5" HEVIshot.

And some sort of red dot. Might not be popular with wing shooting traditionalists, but from reading fire hand experiences the majority of successful drone engagements (at least with rifles) happen with optic equipped guns.

As a slight aside the FPV drones that are becoming the most commonly used drone weapons on both sides, vs “bomber drones” , are fast- like 100+ mph fast.

[Cory]

I shoot a fair amount of clays and do okay with normal low brass against much smaller targets. If I was shooting a typical 4 rotar drone I'd think regular 7.5 or 8 shot woyld be fine. Especially considering followup shots aren't off limits.

The more I think about it the more I love my 1301.

[TGS]

I shoot a fair amount of clays and do okay with normal low brass against much smaller targets. If I was shooting a typical 4 rotar drone I'd think regular 7.5 or 8 shot woyld be fine. Especially considering followup shots aren't off limits.

The more I think about it the more I love my 1301.

What's the altitude of your clays?

What's the typical operating altitude of a man-packable 4 rotor drone in a foreign combat situation where the 400ft FAA ceiling is not relevant?

Caballoflaco, this is why I'm surprised there's a usefulness for shotguns in anti-drone work. It's pretty easy to operate above the useful envelope of a shotgun.

[revchuck38]

What's the altitude of your clays?

What's the typical operating altitude of a man-packable 4 rotor drone in a foreign combat situation where the 400ft FAA ceiling is not relevant?

Caballoflaco, this is why I'm surprised there's a usefulness for shotguns in anti-drone work. It's pretty easy to operate above the useful envelope of a shotgun.

"But Ivan, you can't fly that drone that low!"

"Hold my vodka..."

[MTP]

What's the altitude of your clays?

What's the typical operating altitude of a man-packable 4 rotor drone in a foreign combat situation where the 400ft FAA ceiling is not relevant?

Caballoflaco, this is why I'm surprised there's a usefulness for shotguns in anti-drone work. It's pretty easy to operate above the useful envelope of a shotgun.

Agreed, for man-packable 4 rotor drones being used for surveillance / battlefield intel.

Where I see shotguns coming in handy is for defense against suicide drones or against drones rigged to drop munitions (hand grenades and such) on infantry.

[Cory]

What's the altitude of your clays?

What's the typical operating altitude of a man-packable 4 rotor drone in a foreign combat situation where the 400ft FAA ceiling is not relevant?

Caballoflaco, this is why I'm surprised there's a usefulness for shotguns in anti-drone work. It's pretty easy to operate above the useful envelope of a shotgun.

It's not always the drone's limits that dictate their operating altitude. The breif period I was in law enforcment our drone pilots often operated within shotgun range because of the camera on the drone. If using a semi-fixed camera it can mean getting close to get the camera pointed correctly. Is that always the case, no. Some drones have better cameras, better control, or better operators. But I'd be comfortable engaging targets at some of the distance our drones were searching.

I don't know the altitudes of the clays to be honest. I know what it looks like when I'm standing there but I'm pretty crappy at judging height.

[Caballoflaco]

What's the altitude of your clays?

What's the typical operating altitude of a man-packable 4 rotor drone in a foreign combat situation where the 400ft FAA ceiling is not relevant?

Caballoflaco, this is why I'm surprised there's a usefulness for shotguns in anti-drone work. It's pretty easy to operate above the useful envelope of a shotgun.

Just from videos I’ve seen. Drone operators can get careless or just have to get low to see or drop munitions into buildings and hidey holes, also on the fpvs they have to get kinda low, to hit ground targets and often times have to circle around for a secondary or third run on a target, especially on moving targets.

While EW is still the most important countermeasure from what I’m reading from guys on the ground it seems there is still some value in a last ditch kinetic means to deal with drones, or at least push them back far enough that they can’t drop a grenade right in your dugout chimney.

[Hambo]

What's the altitude of your clays?

What's the typical operating altitude of a man-packable 4 rotor drone in a foreign combat situation where the 400ft FAA ceiling is not relevant?

Caballoflaco, this is why I'm surprised there's a usefulness for shotguns in anti-drone work. It's pretty easy to operate above the useful envelope of a shotgun.

The "useful envelope" is based on birds/mammals. With a proper choke for heavier loads of dense shot, you can shoot birds at 60 yards. If you're not worried about crippled ducks, just damaging electronics/props, you could shoot drones farther away. There's a guy in SC who loads his own buckshot and patterns at 50 yards or more. I wouldn't put my iPhone on a target stand at 300' and let someone fire waterfowl loads at it. If someone has a drone, I have lots of shotguns and a wide variety of shells.

[CSW]

My father in law [RIP] was a flight engineer/top turret gunner on a B17. He told me stories of his gun training, shooting Ithaca 37's at clays from the back of a deuce and a half to simulate air combat. After that, he said that they had some type of pedestal mounted dual shotgun in the back of a different truck to teach them again.

This was 1944. I don't know where he did his basic, he was AAC with the 8th.

[Caballoflaco]

TGS good example of Low level Ukrainian FPVs taking out a Russian squad showing how they often have to slow down and maneuver/turn.

1739774242101600294

Eta: photo of FPV drones.

113077

[Caballoflaco]

Video posted by a Ukrainian soldier of Russians shooting down a UA drone with an old side by side. If you go into the thread he talks a bit about his personal experience with using shotguns against drones.

1752381984821907587

[TCinVA]

Whatever munition is being used in that shotgun appears to offer absolutely zero recoil.

So color me skeptical.

[Caballoflaco]

Whatever munition is being used in that shotgun appears to offer absolutely zero recoil.

So color me skeptical.

He fires one round at first with recoil and the second shot with flames looks like an actual misfire with loose powder burning due to shitty ammo. Who knows if he hit anything.

The interesting part of that thread to me is some of the guys who have used them in combat shared their experiences.

A few of the guys said they‘re effective out to around 50 meters on Mavics.

One said that when the Russians see a shotgun from the drone they’ll get get distance to avoid being shot down, but, that’s still better than nothing.

Another said that Turkish box-mag fed shotguns malfunction if you leave the magazines loaded for too long due to crappy springs.

One dude put an optic on his gun and thought it helped his marksmanship.

There wasn’t any talk about use specifically against FPVs

While limitations of the gauge were acknowledged most seemed to think something was better than nothing, and op would rather see mass issue by the state of a basic pump than more limited purchases of semi-autos or other more complicated guns.

[Cory]

What's the altitude of your clays?

What's the typical operating altitude of a man-packable 4 rotor drone in a foreign combat situation where the 400ft FAA ceiling is not relevant?

Caballoflaco, this is why I'm surprised there's a usefulness for shotguns in anti-drone work. It's pretty easy to operate above the useful envelope of a shotgun.

Garand thumb recently released a video with 2 guys who have been fighting in the Ukraine for 2 years. Drones were discussed, with multiple types/roles described.

First Person View (FPV) drones were described as being very fast, rarely stationary, and having a high pitched noise. Their role is to simply fly into a target and detonate.

Mavic drones were described as a lower whine, with longer loiter time. While they can often drop an explosive, they were described as operating much higher, and sometimes having thermal. It was talkrd about how they can work in teams with FPVs. Essentially bracketing in the FPVs.

Large gas powered drones with very long loiter times at aircraft altitudes were also discussed.

Shotguns were discussed as becoming a common anti-drone tactic. Primary defense from drones was getting into a bunker with fabric over doorways to prevent FPV drones from flying in. They said they're seeing Mossberg 500s with simple birdshot being issued specifically for drones. It wasn't clear what style of drone they were talking about engaging.


https://youtu.be/Tge7YMi4gJs?si=2n7AxQL1n7LrcQ7p

[Caballoflaco]

Russian anti-drone troop ca:2024 man-portable EW and a Russian O/U

1764670324799414302