LAPD Magazine Capacity Restrictions

[HCM]

LAPD has administratively limited the capacity of the handgun magazines their officers may use on duty to 18 rounds.

Anyone have actual insight (not speculation) into what drove this decision?

110109

[Kanye Wyoming]

LAPD has administratively limited the capacity of the handgun magazines their officers may use on duty to 18 rounds.

Anyone have actual insight (not speculation) into what drove this decision?

Equity? They don’t want the bad guys to be outgunned by the cops?

[HCM]

Equity? They don’t want the bad guys to be outgunned by the cops?

There’s a reason I didn’t post this in general discussion.

[Erick Gelhaus]

I just reached out & asked a question ... someone in that dept told me that it came from the head of the org, who did not like the appearance of an extended mag in a recent shooting.

[Hambo]

I just reached out & asked a question ... someone in that dept told me that it came from the head of the org, who did not like the appearance of an extended mag in a recent shooting.

That figures. However, while I wouldn't prohibit mags based on capacity, I do like that the memo mentioned use of rifles and shotgun slugs. You don't play golf with just a putter, likewise you shouldn't try to solve a rifle problem with a pistol.

[HCM]

I just reached out & asked a question ... someone in that dept told me that it came from the head of the org, who did not like the appearance of an extended mag in a recent shooting.

I was told the same. It reminds me of departments who resisted speed loaders back in the day because they didn’t like the look of the cases on the belt. Time really is a flat circle.

[Hambo]

I was told the same. It reminds me of departments who resisted speed loaders back in the day because they didn’t like the look of the cases on the belt. Time really is a flat circle.

LAPD never changes.

[Trooper224]

When I read that, I assumed it came from some pencil neck having the heebie jeebies over extended mags.

[WobblyPossum]

Well that’s dumb as hell.

[Rex G]

Y’all young ’uns are spoiled. I was effectively limited to 18 total rounds, on the belt, during my first year of sworn service, when it was a DA revolver, and no more than two reloads. More ammo was not prohibited, but it could not be visible, while in uniform. Back-up handguns were allowed, but had to be worn totally concealed. Upon completely the first years of sworn service, autos were OK for duty, but the number of reloads visible on the duty belt remained at two*, and, a flap had to cover the mag floorplate. (No totally open-topped mag pouches were allowed.)

Personally-owned shotguns were allowed, from the first day of sworn service, subject to the judgement of the Field Trainer.

OK, enough historic trivia. On a serious, practical note, mags of a length that protrude far from the grip frame of a pistol are also prone to snagging while moving through vegetation and similar intervening obstacles. Mag extensions, that replace mag floor plates, can be twisted or torqued enough to separate from the mag body. When my knees still allowed it, I climbed plenty of fences and walls, and, I did not treat hedgerows and thickets as fences, but barreled through them, as necessary.

*I gamed this, by wearing two separate mag pouches, at widely-spaced positions on the belt, so that no more than two spare mags were readily visible, from one angle of view. When I knew that I would stand for inspection, I could remove the extra items, as needed.

[Rex G]

Y’all young ’uns are spoiled. I was effectively limited to 18 total rounds, on the belt, during my first year of sworn service, when it was a DA revolver, and no more than two reloads. More ammo was not prohibited, but it could not be visible, while in uniform. Back-up handguns were allowed, but had to be worn totally concealed. Upon completely the first years of sworn service, autos were OK for duty, but the number of reloads visible on the duty belt remained at two*, and, a flap had to cover the mag floorplate. (No totally open-topped mag pouches were allowed.)

Personally-owned shotguns were allowed, from the first day of sworn service, subject to the judgement of the Field Trainer.

OK, enough historic trivia. On a serious, practical note, mags of a length that protrude far from the grip frame of a pistol are also prone to snagging while moving through vegetation and similar intervening obstacles. Mag extensions, that replace mag floor plates, can be twisted or torqued enough to separate from the mag body. When my knees still allowed it, I climbed plenty of fences and walls, and, I did not treat hedgerows and thickets as fences, but barreled through them, as necessary.

*I gamed this, by wearing two separate mag pouches, at widely-spaced positions on the belt, so that no more than two spare mags were readily visible, from one angle of view. When I knew that I would stand for inspection, I could remove the extra items, as needed.

[Rex G]

I just reached out & asked a question ... someone in that dept told me that it came from the head of the org, who did not like the appearance of an extended mag in a recent shooting.

Not that I am opposed to somewhat-extended mags, but, I admit that this makes sense. Something that I have realized, since the mid-80s, is that LE must not only do the right thing, but always look like we are doing the right thing, and “look good” while doing the right thing. Appearance does matter, whether we like it or not.

[Rex G]

I just reached out & asked a question ... someone in that dept told me that it came from the head of the org, who did not like the appearance of an extended mag in a recent shooting.

Not that I am opposed to somewhat-extended mags, especially in the “war bag,” but, I admit that this makes sense. Something that I have realized, since the mid-80s, is that LE must not only do the right thing, but always look like we are doing the right thing, and “look good” while doing the right thing. Appearance does matter, whether we like it or not.

[vcdgrips]

...and I thought the objection might be based on the fact that many mags with extensions do not run as reliably as OEM mags or even vetted Magpuls.

Silly me.

[GJM]

Any chance this is the head shed's hardware solution to ensuring an assessment pause?

[DDTSGM]

I don't think that's likely with still allowing 'normal' mags.

[lwt16]

I just reached out & asked a question ... someone in that dept told me that it came from the head of the org, who did not like the appearance of an extended mag in a recent shooting.

This was the first thing that I thought.

Chiefs are gonna Chief.

I had one that denied a request to put Talong grips on a duty glock. The written request was approved all the way to his desk.

Reason given, in writing, was Glocks are “Perfection”.

[Rex G]

Sorry about the double posts, above. The site, or the error-net, were both misbehaving this morning.

[HCM]

Any chance this is the head shed's hardware solution to ensuring an assessment pause?

Even if you subscribe to the theory that capacity is a factor in that, their current issue gun (FN 509) and prior issue (M&P) both hold 17+1 so the extra 3 or 4 rounds are not significant.

[BobM]

The SO wouldn’t order their Chargers with push bars because they felt they looked too “aggressive “. Meanwhile, the bars saved us a lot of money on body shop work from the usual minor collisions, deer crashes, etc.

The department I retired from carries M&P40 s. I’ve heard there’s quite a few carrying 20 round magazines either as primary or spare or both. I don’t think I’d bother. Like Rex I started with a revolver and two speedloaders.

[HCM]

The SO wouldn’t order their Chargers with push bars because they felt they looked too “aggressive “. Meanwhile, the bars saved us a lot of money on body shop work from the usual minor collisions, deer crashes, etc.

The department I retired from carries M&P40 s. I’ve heard there’s quite a few carrying 20 round magazines either as primary or spare or both. I don’t think I’d bother. Like Rex I started with a revolver and two speedloaders.

I think reliability is the most important thing in duty, guns, and duty gun accoutrement.

Assuming the extensions or extended mags are reliable there’s also a point of diminishing returns where they change the balance I’m handling of the gun.

In my experience, the Sigg factory, 21 round magazines, and the Glock 17 with factory +2 are OK but the Glock factory 22 and 24 round magazines start to make the gun unwieldy if you need to fire one-handed, etc.

[mmc45414]

The gangster embracing of 32rnd extendos may have triggered something like this.

[sff70]

Apparently the firearms training cadre was OK with these things, given that officers have been using them for some time now, as evidenced by their use in numerous BWC vids.

[Coyotesfan97]

When I was carrying a 1911 I didn’t like having an extended mag in the holstered gun because of sitting in the car. I had an 8 round WC in the pistol and 10 round WCs in my mag pouches.

I generally just stuck with factory mags for whatever model of Glock I was carrying. I never had extended mags for them.

[1Rangemaster]

Last century, I recall the KY State Police commander rejected speedloaders- Smith .357s issued at the time- for dump pouches, as he liked the look on the uniform belt…
I’m most familiar with Glock mags, and the current plus base plates which give two extra rounds in 9mm are serviceable. I think the extended baseplates, like a +5, might not be a good idea as the extension can be leveraged off the mag tube with a blow or get caught in something.
I’ll run a factory plus base on a Glock mag, in a gun in a duty rig, or as a reload if I’m carrying a 19 or a 26. The extended mags of 24 and 33 rounds I can’t carry comfortably, but I’ll admit to having one occasionally in the car or backup.
The LAPD diktat just seems to be about uniformity, imo.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Any chance this is the head shed's hardware solution to ensuring an assessment pause?
From afar, I doubt it. The shooting that purportedly led to it was 5 rounds and quite reasonable. There was a previous shooting with a higher profile female officer who fired a pair, assessed, fired a pair, assessed, and fired a pair all hits on an armed suspect who kept re-animating. She got drama over that.


The gangster embracing of 32rnd extendos may have triggered something like this.
Huh?

[mmc45414]

Huh?
There are even rap lyrics about using extended magazines (referred to as "extendos", typically the Glock 18 32rnd versions) to use in committing murders and I have watched press conferences where extended magazines have been called out as part of the armament of criminals. At this point they have probably been linked with criminal intent. We are talking about 20-23rnd magazines (like the one I just bought...) but probably in the minds of the people that wrote this policy extended is probably extended, and they do not want something sticking out of the bottom of the pistol that is poked right out in front of the body worn cameras.

[WobblyPossum]

Gangsters have been killing people with extended capacity magazines since the Tommy Gun days. No one is making changes to firearms policy in 2023 because extended mags have suddenly become popular with the bad guys.

[HCM]

There are even rap lyrics about using extended magazines (referred to as "extendos", typically the Glock 18 32rnd versions) to use in committing murders and I have watched press conferences where extended magazines have been called out as part of the armament of criminals. At this point they have probably been linked with criminal intent. We are talking about 20-23rnd magazines (like the one I just bought...) but probably in the minds of the people that wrote this policy extended is probably extended, and they do not want something sticking out of the bottom of the pistol that is poked right out in front of the body worn cameras.

It’s “ ‘stendos” the “ex” is silent.

[mmc45414]

Gangsters have been killing people with extended capacity magazines since the Tommy Gun days. No one is making changes to firearms policy in 2023 because extended mags have suddenly become popular with the bad guys.

Was basing my thoughts on this:


I just reached out & asked a question ... someone in that dept told me that it came from the head of the org, who did not like the appearance of an extended mag in a recent shooting.

[mmc45414]

It’s “ ‘stendos” the “ex” is silent.
Well, I had to look it up (https://www.bing.com/search?q=extendo+lyrics&form=ANNTH1&refig=4905f04af6a24747a1650ac271909395&sp=1&lq=0&qs=SC&pq=extendos+lyric&sc=10-14&cvid=4905f04af6a24747a1650ac271909395), there was never any references in any of the Allman Brothers songs I would typically listen to... :cool:

[Magsz]

Admin.

Creating solutions for problems that don't actually exist.

Yay.

Law Enforcement officers today don't look like they did twenty years ago. NO ONE does.

Limiting magazine capacity for whatever arbitrary stupid ass reason they've come up with is absolutely, positively, dumb. It's well...arbitrary and stupid.

Anyone interested in helping their Officers/Deputies would look at the real issue. Reliability between brands. Test several extensions and release an approved list. It's really not that hard.

The idea that more ammo on board is somehow creating a picture of Law Enforcement as "gunfighters" is pandering to the uneducated, scared, ignorant public.

[HCM]

Well, I had to look it up (https://www.bing.com/search?q=extendo+lyrics&form=ANNTH1&refig=4905f04af6a24747a1650ac271909395&sp=1&lq=0&qs=SC&pq=extendos+lyric&sc=10-14&cvid=4905f04af6a24747a1650ac271909395), there was never any references in any of the Allman Brothers songs I would typically listen to... :cool:

That’s per first hand experience, not press conferences or lyrics on the internet.

[Bucky]

From afar, I doubt it. The shooting that purportedly led to it was 5 rounds and quite reasonable. There was a previous shooting with a higher profile female officer who fired a pair, assessed, fired a pair, assessed, and fired a pair all hits on an armed suspect who kept re-animating. She got drama over that.



Pair + pair + pair = 5?

And since it it’s the season…


https://youtu.be/gG3czaGYsWc?si=6fWIlGXUUbwRZef7

[Hambo]

There are even rap lyrics about using extended magazines

Let me help, I speak rap:
-Stendo-extended magazine
-Beam-laser or light
-Lens-red dot pistol optic


The LAPD diktat just seems to be about uniformity, imo.

It's about how it looks on video. If it was about uniformity, LAPD officers wouldn't be carrying a mix of pistols from at least five manufacturers.

[mmc45414]

Let me help, I speak rap:
-Stendo-extended magazine
-Beam-laser or light
-Lens-red dot pistol optic

Thanks!! :cool:

110151

[Erick Gelhaus]

From afar, I doubt it. The shooting that purportedly led to it was 5 rounds and quite reasonable. There was a previous shooting with a higher profile female officer who fired a pair, assessed, fired a pair, assessed, and fired a pair all hits on an armed suspect who kept re-animating. She got drama over that.



Pair + pair + pair = 5?

It's okay, math is not my strong suite either.

Shooting A - 5 rounds;
Shooting B - 6 rounds;

[Bucky]

It's okay, math is not my strong suite either.

Shooting A - 5 rounds;
Shooting B - 6 rounds;

It’s OK, neither is Dr. Loomis. Since in Halloween II, the editing showed him shooting 7 times. :p

[H8Train]

We used to see some guys carry factory +2's on extra mags, which wasn't really outlined as allowed or not in the SOP. But few years ago they updated it and now we can't, according to range staff due to reliability/durability concerns.

A beat partner used to have a shotgun shell pouch on his external vest that a worthless LT had problems with, told him to take it off or get a new one that doesn't have the rounds visibly exposed...




The SO wouldn’t order their Chargers with push bars because they felt they looked too “aggressive “. Meanwhile, the bars saved us a lot of money on body shop work from the usual minor collisions, deer crashes, etc.

The department I retired from carries M&P40 s. I’ve heard there’s quite a few carrying 20 round magazines either as primary or spare or both. I don’t think I’d bother. Like Rex I started with a revolver and two speedloaders.

Ha, 10 years ago my county council expressed concerns on the ford interceptor utility's factory dark window tint being "too intimidating" and it being a "SUV" worried about poor fuel consumption. Dept's answer "Ok we will get the sedans" that were built on the same platform, same drive train and get identical mpg (and zero tint). Icing on the cake is the ultralib county exec being driven around in a blacked out, limo tinted Chevy Suburban. Same exec has stated he plans to mandate we change our black uniforms to a different color due to "it looking intimidating".

Ironically they install push bars on everything, however the ones they buy fold up easily in wrecks and offer little protection if any. And most guys refuse to use it to push motorists cars for fear of getting punished if the other vehicle gets damaged.

[jd950]

This goes back quite a while, but in a former job, we had about six pristine Thompson SMGs in the armory. Story was that when the army closed a nearby facility sometime after WWII, they donated the guns to the P.D. As far as i know, they never left the armory in the decades that followed. One day, the head range guy proposed we trade/sell the Thompson's to get a bunch of ARs. Amazingly, that was agreed to and that is what we did. The dept. got enough rifles to fully equip patrol, and sought bids for rifle racks for the cars. Somebody of importance got wind of this and cancelled the racks for the cars because having a rifle visible would look too aggressive. Rifles would have to be carried in the trunk, in a latched hard case, bungeed to a wooden case used for storage of the usual patrol stuff. Guns were to be carried completely unloaded, and could only be loaded/deployed upon watch commander approval (assuming he could be found at the time of any particular incident).

Most of us did not bother getting rifle qualified and eventually the unloaded and cased rifle was only to be carried in a Sergeant's car and only deployed with watch commander approval. Most sergeants did not want to bother with it, so we ended up with an armory of unused ARs instead of unused Thompsons. At least the SMGs had been fun to look at.

[Dave Williams]

a Sergeant's car

So at my dept in the early days of rifles, only Sgt’s cars had them. One Sgt would show up and carry the Bushmaster AR around by the carry handle. Lol very useful!!

[jnc36rcpd]

So at my dept in the early days of rifles, only Sgt’s cars had them. One Sgt would show up and carry the Bushmaster AR around by the carry handle. Lol very useful!!

My former agency did that nonsense for a while. The department purchased several9mm Colt carbines. In the same era, we also purchased a launcher for use with impact munitions. These weapons were considered so dangerous and complex that only sergeants and shift OIC's were authorized to use them (because supervisory rank conveys sharpshooter ability).

This was somewhat complexing. After enduring numerous lectures how I should be a supervisor rather than a worker, suddenly I was both a designated marksman and aa grenadier.

The Beltway sniper case smartened the department up when we realized we were potentially outgunned. Botach International immediately replaced shipped out 5.56 Colt rifles on our promise to send them the carbines. The department trained non-supervisory personnel and I was even praised that rifles not be assigned to sergeants (though I made the point we should be allowed our own.

I think H8Train and I work the same A.O. If I'm correct, his department firearms training unit has traditionally been pretty conservative. Indeed, as semiautomatics became popular in law enforcement, a firearms instructor presented an in-service class on how terrible those things were and why we were better served with revolvers. Allegedly, after retirement, that instructor went to work for SigSauer.

That said, concerns about reliability would be a valid reason to ban magazine extensions. Given the other thread on what mag extensions we trust, there is clearly a concern about which magazines actually work.

Truth be told, I experimented with magazine extensions for my .40 SigSauer 226. Offhand, I don't recall what flavor they were. Adding a few extra rounds to a twelve round magazine seemed like a good idea even when I started out with a revolver. Nonetheless, I had a concern that the different grip might compromise my accuracy at the moment of truth. I never carried them on the street and they lived on my plate carrier. When we transitioned to the FNS-9, the weapon's dubious reliability and seventeen round magazine banished any though of magazine extensions.

I will remark that, if an agency approves magazine extensions or after-market magazines, they should be a specific brand and model and installed and/or inspected by an armorer or instructor.

The county executive does hate his department's evil black uniforms which, to his mind, were chosen to intimidate people and because George Floyd. The cost of replacing them would have been pretty expansive. I know the executive had hurt feelings when the cop-hating county NAACP chapter and the even more cop-hating "justice coalition" told the media that while they demanded this, that, and the other kind of "reform", they felt changing uniforms was a waste of money.

[DMF13]

My agency only allows Glock mags. Issued mags are Glock OEM 15 round mags. Mag extensions are approved (I forget which brands), but both the approved extensions, and Glock OEM mags, must be max capacity of 24 rounds. The stated reason for the 24 round max capacity, is concerns about reliability of the higher capacity mags.

[Kyle Reese]

My agency only allows Glock mags. Issued mags are Glock OEM 15 round mags. Mag extensions are approved (I forget which brands), but both the approved extensions, and Glock OEM mags, must be max capacity of 24 rounds. The stated reason for the 24 round max capacity, is concerns about reliability of the higher capacity mags.

I love the OEM 24-round mags- If 24 rds was the max cap allowed, it's a no-brainer to buy the factory mags.

[DMF13]

I love the OEM 24-round mags- If 24 rds was the max cap allowed, it's a no-brainer to buy the factory mags.
I haven't tried the OEM 24 round mags, but have been using the 19 round '19X" mags. I was using TTI extensions, for 20 round capacity, but have heard of, but haven't experienced, problems with the springs being weak and causing malfunctions.

The TTI mags have joined my 21 round P-Mags, for use in USPSA.