Defensive ammo in shorter barrels; Px4 compact 9mm

[CSW]

I have a question concerning bbl length and effectiveness of defensive ammunition.
My carry gun(s) have always been 4 inch bbl or longer, except for a G26 that I ran for a short time.
I originally carried federal Hydra-shock 124+p, only because I was given a great amount by the department I worked with.
Never an issue with any of the guns.

I switched up, going with Speer G2, 147 grain, and have carried this primarily in the past few years... Both in a 4" 1911 9mm, and in the Beretta m9a1 compact.
It has been good ammo.

I've been looking into getting a PX4 compact, in 9mm, and wondered if the 3.25" bbl would have an effect on the effectiveness of 147 grain ammo.
Would using a lighter, faster bullet be better?

Or, am I just overthinking the barrel length, and compare the results to a G26?

Any help is appreciated.

Chris

[WDR]

IIRC, the G2 Gold Dot is really intended for "service" size pistols, and sometimes has issues with expansion from shorter guns.

That said, the 147gr loads lose less velocity in short guns, than the lighter loads. I think 147 HST does okay from shorter guns, as does RA9T. I'll carry either of those in my G26... which is ~1/4" longer than the PX4.

[revchuck38]

I've been looking into getting a PX4 compact, in 9mm, and wondered if the 3.25" bbl would have an effect on the effectiveness of 147 grain ammo.
Would using a lighter, faster bullet be better?

Or, am I just overthinking the barrel length, and compare the results to a G26?


Somewhere here, DocGKR wrote that the 147s tend to lose less performance when going to a shorter barrel than lighter bullets. I'm using 124-grain +P HST in my 9x19s because I want the additional recoil impulse to help the guns work. I'm confident in the bullet performance at either standard or +P level.

I've chronographed both the Golden Sabre 147 load and the HST version. The GS came in at ~900 fps while the HST went ~1000 fps, both from my 4" PX4. Both made Doc's list.

Quit overthinking this. :D

[revchuck38]

I've been looking into getting a PX4 compact, in 9mm, and wondered if the 3.25" bbl would have an effect on the effectiveness of 147 grain ammo.
Would using a lighter, faster bullet be better?

Or, am I just overthinking the barrel length, and compare the results to a G26?


Somewhere here, DocGKR wrote that the 147s tend to lose less performance when going to a shorter barrel than lighter bullets. I'm using 124-grain +P HST in my 9x19s because I want the additional recoil impulse to help the guns work. I'm confident in the bullet performance at either standard or +P level.

I've chronographed both the Golden Sabre 147 load and the HST version. The GS came in at ~900 fps while the HST went ~1000 fps, both from my 4" PX4. Both made Doc's list.

Quit overthinking this. :D

[WDR]

Quit overthinking this. :D

You didn't have to say it twice!

On that note, I agree. The G2 thing deserves some research, but otherwise, I wouldn't worry too much about it, as long as the selected load ran in whatever gun I was using.

[revchuck38]

You didn't have to say it twice!

The website's being wonky again. I hit submit and then got a timeout so I tried again. Just got a 503 too.

[CSW]

Both the hydras and the G2 are 100% reliable as far as feed/extract.

My question was more about the bullets doing what they are designed to do ~
Open properly, with velocity playing a big role.
This layman's thought is that the quarter inch difference between the Px4 and the G26 can't make that big a difference.

[revchuck38]

This layman's thought is that the quarter inch difference between the Px4 and the G26 can't make that big a difference.

That's this layman's thought too. :)

[cosermann]

I follow the “barrel length” advice from this page - https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

[Navin Johnson]

I have a question concerning bbl length and effectiveness of defensive ammunition.
My carry gun(s) have always been 4 inch bbl or longer, except for a G26 that I ran for a short time.
I originally carried federal Hydra-shock 124+p, only because I was given a great amount by the department I worked with.
Never an issue with any of the guns.

I switched up, going with Speer G2, 147 grain, and have carried this primarily in the past few years... Both in a 4" 1911 9mm, and in the Beretta m9a1 compact.
It has been good ammo.

I've been looking into getting a PX4 compact, in 9mm, and wondered if the 3.25" bbl would have an effect on the effectiveness of 147 grain ammo.
Would using a lighter, faster bullet be better?

Or, am I just overthinking the barrel length, and compare the results to a G26?

Any help is appreciated.

Chris

Barrel length, in pistols is not an accurate indicator of velocity only a chronograph is…..

Availability, function, and accuracy, far outweigh the nuances of expansion and penetration as long as it’s within reason

Pick something off “the list” that can be purchased in multiples of 1000, be sure that it functions and drive on.

Manufactures love to give their own technical data, but never mention velocity windows.

General, if it’s 9 mm and the barrel is between 3.5 and 5 inches it should be good to go.

[D-der]

Seems I recall Doc noting that 147gr HST does quite well in short barrels, 124gr HST does well, just not as well as 147gr. If my carry guns are are proven to shoot 147's well and there's very little poa poi difference with full power 124gr practice ammo (I shoot slot of S&B) to 25rds, I carry 147 HST, if there's notable poi difference, I stick with 124gr HST std pressure which seem to shoot well in most everything I care to carry these days. I'd prefer consistency / accuracy, from drills to carry even if there's marginal projectile performance.

[JCN]

The original HST design for expansion is less velocity proportional than the original gold dot when I tested some years back. The 147 is my choice down to 3” barrels.

[spence]

In all the chronograph data I've collected, Beretta's barrels don't get the velocity other mfr's barrels of equal length do. So the 3.3" PX4 barrel is more on point with, or even slightly slower, than a 3" barrel. Only 3" I had was a Kel Tec PF9, but it illustrated the point.

Only two JHP loads I have run through that gun are the Winchester Defend 147's at 858 fps and the Winchester Bonded 147's at 916 fps. The bonded from a full length barrel hits right around box velocity of 990ish.

[Hazmatt]

Iirc, CBP/Border Patrol is currently issuing the g2 along with the Glock 26.

[CSW]

So after searching the interweb for more knowledge [which can be very questionable], seems 124 grain may be the way to go.
I'm thinking 124 HST is going to be my choice.
I did not have any for my non scientific test, but I set up a target and fired some accuracy tests.

15 yards, very slow fire, the 4 corners were off hand, the center and last target, strong hand only.
The NATO black tip held the tightest, but is a no go for carry ammo. The Hydra 124+p is the closest to a 124 HST I had.

110779

[358156hp]

I use 124 gr & up exclusively anymore with primary focus so far on 124 gr over 147, mostly driven by the local availability of 124 gr "premium" ammo being greater than that of 147 gr. I still have a fair amount of Winchester 124 gr +P bonded "PDX1" from my younger days when Winchester was more reliable. Also in stock is Hornady 135 gr +P Critical Duty that I favor more for winter when people tend to wear more layers of heavier clothing. In the end I suspect I'll end up with 124 gr HST after I go through what I already have on hand. All of my 9mm pistols have barrel lengths between 4 inch and 3-1/2 inches.

[1Rangemaster]

The G19 I have on has 135+P Hornady in it. The G26 I wore yesterday had 125+P Hornady, because that is what I charged the magazine with earlier this year. I have some "boutique" loads like the 115 Underwood penetrator(based on work&comments by GJM, but as others stated a lot of it is "Indian, rather than arrow(s)". Reliability, then accuracy, etc.
vcdgrips put up a list of "cold" evals/challenges that I try to hit once a month, cold. Not to be too graphic or sarcastic, but 124 NATO to the "upper cns" of deadly threat(s) should be quite helpful.
I've used 147 Ranger a few years back with no concerns in a 26; run whatever you can hit with and feel comfortable about. I will note there have been some anecdotal reports about Winchester QC since this summer.

Edit to add: I would be comfortable with 124 to 147 CCI/ Federal loads; they just don't seem prevalent around here. All the major manufacturers have pretty good loads using FBI protocols if they work(like go bang). Prefer the heavier projectile usually...

[CSW]

The G19 I have on has 135+P Hornady in it. The G26 I wore yesterday had 125+P Hornady, because that is what I charged the magazine with earlier this year. I have some "boutique" loads like the 115 Underwood penetrator(based on work&comments by GJM, but as others stated a lot of it is "Indian, rather than arrow(s)". Reliability, then accuracy, etc.
vcdgrips put up a list of "cold" evals/challenges that I try to hit once a month, cold. Not to be too graphic or sarcastic, but 124 NATO to the "upper cns" of deadly threat(s) should be quite helpful.
I've used 147 Ranger a few years back with no concerns in a 26; run whatever you can hit with and feel comfortable about. I will note there have been some anecdotal reports about Winchester QC since this summer.

Edit to add: I would be comfortable with 124 to 147 CCI/ Federal loads; they just don't seem prevalent around here. All the major manufacturers have pretty good loads using FBI protocols if they work(like go bang). Prefer the heavier projectile usually...


I have no doubt about velocities and accuracy,
My concern is really about the expansion of the carry load itself.
Somewhere I've read that the G2 did not expand as well as it does in a 4"+ barrel, as opposed to a 3.27".

[1Rangemaster]

I have no doubt about velocities and accuracy,
My concern is really about the expansion of the carry load itself.
Somewhere I've read that the G2 did not expand as well as it does in a 4"+ barrel, as opposed to a 3.27".

Apologies; I was not reading carefully. I believe you are correct; I too recall some discussion on this forum. A search found a comment that the Bureau was directing personnel not to load in short barrels, e.g. 43X. They directed 135 +P Hornady. That was in 2020.
Since the Bureau puts a lot of time and tax dollars into testing, I’d go with something else if possible.
For the search, I just typed in “G2 bullet expansion” and it was a thread back then.

[358156hp]

This seems like a good point to ask if there's any updates on Winchesters (ahem) performance difficulties of late. I have access to 124 gr PDX1 124 gr Bonded +P 9mm, and also to std velocity 147 Bonded std pressure but there have been performance concerns as of lately. Should I keep them on the "no fly" list? I can also get Ranger, but it's more expensive and purchasing leaves a very distinct trail.

[No.6]

I did a similar exercise with my PX4CC and got the best results with 115gr Hornady XTP followed by their FTX, but it leaves home with 124 HST. The differences in group sizes weren't significant enough with such a small sample size, and the PX4 makes all loads tame.

[EricM]

While not 147gr, to offer a data point I recalled posting this a few years ago:


I ran some 124gr +P Gold Dots through the chrono a while back:

Gen 4 G17 - 1223 fps
Gen 3 G26 - 1150 fps
PX4C - 1120 fps

The PX4C readings were taken on a different day, but I did not observe a significant difference in the readings of other loads that were measured on both days. I'm not qualified to make any comment on the impact of velocity on effectiveness, just thought I'd share the numbers. It is important to be aware of the short barrel if you're running your carry gun in USPSA, as the Lawman 115gr I shoot most of the time would not make minor in the PX4C.

[Beat Trash]

I have been involved in 3 ballistic workshops hosted by my former agency prior to my retirement. We were using M&P9’s as well as the 12 shot M&P compacts as test guns. I always included a 3” gun in the testing because the Shield was such a popular off duty pistol.

Rounds tested were Winchester Ranger 147 (RA9T), 147gr HST, the 147 gr Gold Dot G2 and the 124+ Gold Dot.

The 147 Ranger T and HST didn’t really care much which barrel length was used. While there was a slight difference in expansion and a correlating effect on penetration, it wasn’t enough to get excited about.

I’ve witnessed the G2 tested twice, both times with the “improved” design of round. I was underwhelmed, even when using a duty size pistol.

I’ve never seen the Hornady 135+ tested, but I’ve heard good things from a Sheriffs department locally who did test and later adopt this round.

In retirement, I carry everything from a Sig P365, Shield Plus to a Glock 19 (mostly a Glock 19) They all get the same 147gr Ranger T load.

When I finally run out of that ammunition , I may buy some of the 135+ Hornady loading.

But at the end of the day, I try to remember that the nuances of a particular round matters less, so long as it’s reliable. What matters more to me is the ability to use appropriate tactics and good shot placement, before my opponent can do the same to me.

[fatdog]

Just to satisfy my curiosity I got the chrono out this morning and ran 4 well respected defensive loads through three guns to see how the PX4 compact did with each round.

The "control group" guns were a 3" Sig P365 and a Gen 4 glock 19 along with the PX4 Compact, the only thing that surprised me was the 147gr HST in the PX4/c being a bit slower, the data:

Federal 147gr HST

PX4/c AVG=902, SD=15, ES =50
P365 AVG= 924, SD=7, ES=10
G19 AVG= 946, SD=18, ES =54

Federal 124gr +P HST

PX4/c AVG=1161, SD=11, ES=31
P365 AVG=1101, SD=12, ES=29
G19 AVG=1157, SD =10, ES= 27

Speer Gold Dot 147gr

PX4/c AVG= 940, SD=10, ES=31
P365 AVG=927, SD=18, ES=50
G19 AVG=941, SD=12, ES=42

Speer Gold dot 124gr +P

PX4/c AVG=1171, SD=17, ES=51
P365 AVG=1147, SD=12, ES=33
G19 AVG=1171, SD= 18, ES=58

[Outpost75]

Federal 9MS 147-grain Hi-Shok fired into water jugs at 7 yards from S&W Model 940 revolver with 1-7/8" barrel.
Stopped In 4th gallon water jug.

118983

[LOBO]

I may be wrong, but I seem to remember something about the 147 grain HST bullet being changed. If so, is it still thought to be the best weight for shorter < 4" barrels?

[5pins]

Iirc, CBP/Border Patrol is currently issuing the g2 along with the Glock 26.

Yes, and it performs well out of the Glock 26.

[beenalongtime]

Just to satisfy my curiosity I got the chrono out this morning and ran 4 well respected defensive loads through three guns to see how the PX4 compact did with each round.

The "control group" guns were a 3" Sig P365 and a Gen 4 glock 19 along with the PX4 Compact, the only thing that surprised me was the 147gr HST in the PX4/c being a bit slower, the data:

Federal 147gr HST

PX4/c AVG=902, SD=15, ES =50
P365 AVG= 924, SD=7, ES=10
G19 AVG= 946, SD=18, ES =54

Federal 124gr +P HST

PX4/c AVG=1161, SD=11, ES=31
P365 AVG=1101, SD=12, ES=29
G19 AVG=1157, SD =10, ES= 27

Speer Gold Dot 147gr

PX4/c AVG= 940, SD=10, ES=31
P365 AVG=927, SD=18, ES=50
G19 AVG=941, SD=12, ES=42

Speer Gold dot 124gr +P

PX4/c AVG=1171, SD=17, ES=51
P365 AVG=1147, SD=12, ES=33
G19 AVG=1171, SD= 18, ES=58


Stupid question, but the way to learn, what is SD and ES mean?

[fatdog]

Stupid question, but the way to learn, what is SD and ES mean?

standard deviation (from statistics) and extreme spread, the difference between the fastest and slowest shots, in any chrono string those are usually calculated to see how consistent from shot to shot a group was

[Guerrero]

standard deviation (from statistics) and extreme spread, the difference between the fastest and slowest shots, in any chrono string those are usually calculated to see how consistent from shot to shot a group was

Smaller is better in both cases.

[Tannhauser]

Just to satisfy my curiosity I got the chrono out this morning and ran 4 well respected defensive loads through three guns to see how the PX4 compact did with each round.

The "control group" guns were a 3" Sig P365 and a Gen 4 glock 19 along with the PX4 Compact, the only thing that surprised me was the 147gr HST in the PX4/c being a bit slower, the data:

Federal 147gr HST

PX4/c AVG=902, SD=15, ES =50
P365 AVG= 924, SD=7, ES=10
G19 AVG= 946, SD=18, ES =54

Federal 124gr +P HST

PX4/c AVG=1161, SD=11, ES=31
P365 AVG=1101, SD=12, ES=29
G19 AVG=1157, SD =10, ES= 27

Speer Gold Dot 147gr

PX4/c AVG= 940, SD=10, ES=31
P365 AVG=927, SD=18, ES=50
G19 AVG=941, SD=12, ES=42

Speer Gold dot 124gr +P

PX4/c AVG=1171, SD=17, ES=51
P365 AVG=1147, SD=12, ES=33
G19 AVG=1171, SD= 18, ES=58

Those results are very much in line with what I’ve seen. Worst case drop on MV is about 50FPS between the subcompact barrel and the service length barrel.

I use 124 gr HST in all my 9x19 pistols, from P365 up to M&P 5” barrel. Mostly because back when ammo was cheap, I could buy 124 HST at or under $0.50 a round (with savvy shopping) so I’m sitting on a LOT of 124 HST.

At this point any of my carry guns in 9 mm have seen a fairly substantial round count of 124 HST from both initial function check and simply cycling through carry ammo over the years, so with the demonstrated reliability with this specific load from the specific manufacturer in my mind, a slight increase in performance is not worth the cost of building up enough of a round count of a new load to verify reliability

[revchuck38]

Tannhauser - I’m pretty much in the same boat, just with 124-grain +P HST. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. :)

[piefairy]

Is +P safe to run on stock springs? I thought I heard at some point that you need heavier springs so I have always avoided it. Please enlighten me.

[revchuck38]

Is +P safe to run on stock springs? I thought I heard at some point that you need heavier springs so I have always avoided it. Please enlighten me.

With what gun? My Glocks, Walthers, and PX4s are fine with +P with factory springs. My perception is that current-production pistols are designed to handle +P ammo.

[piefairy]

With what gun? My Glocks, Walthers, and PX4s are fine with +P with factory springs. My perception is that current-production pistols are designed to handle +P ammo.

Sig p320 and 365

[revchuck38]

Sig p320 and 365

They'll be fine with +P. Check in the owner's manual.

[WobblyPossum]

Sig p320 and 365

Totally fine. My agency is the largest institutional user of the P320 outside of the military and we issue +P duty ammo. The same ammo is also the issued ammo for personally owned and agency owned P365s.

[piefairy]

Thanks for the info.