Blazer Brass, Shrapnel. Jacket separation?

[Chomps]

so I was at the range today vetting the new PALMETTO STATE 15 round micro dagger magazines for use in my G 48 when I noticed the target was peppered with shrapnel. I pulled it in and there were multiple little rectangular holes in the cardboard that had fragments, from the bullets copper jacket in them. I was shooting several different types of ammo, but I noticed this with the blazer brass 147gr Flatnose FMJ.

I’VE DONE A GOOGLE SEARCH ON IT AND ONLY FOUND ONE POST FROM SIX OR SEVEN YEARS AGO OR SOMEONE WAS DESCRIBING THE SAME THING AND APPARENTLY BLAZER CLAIMS THIS IS NORMAL. FOR THAT REASON, THEY HAVE A DISCLAIMER ABOUT USING BLAZER BRASS, FMJ In PORTED PISTOLS.
(.. sorry about yelling! the caps lock was on while I was dictating and I don’t feel like going back and fixing it. Lol.)

I don’t recall seeing that particular warning, and I’ve never heard of this happening everybody at the range, including the RSO’s were confused by this as I was. Has anyone here experienced the same thing?

I’ve got a couple of pictures showing the shrapnel holes and the shreds that I’m pulling out of them. All of this was shot within 5 yards and none of these shrapnel shards penetrated thru the cardboard to the opposite side.

I just want to make sure that there’s nothing wrong with my pistol or the ammo. I have not seen this before and I’ve shot plenty of blazer brass. Although I honestly can’t say I’ve shot a whole lot of it inside 5m like I have today. As I said, I was pretty much just dumping rounds today to vet these 15 round magazines before I use them for EDC.

(… BTW, anybody that’s interested 2 range sessions so far, Ran about 400 rounds through those two PALMETTO STATE Mags, and not a single issue with the magazines in my G48.) 😎

Oddly enough, the very first round of the day was a 124 grand federal HST with a bad primer. And again I’ve never seen this before, but I ejected the round, fired a couple rounds, put it back in the magazine, and tried it again, and it failed a second time. Never had a federal HST round fail on me once let alone twice prior to today.

Today is a strange Ammo day! 🤷*♂️.
anyways,… I’d be curious to know if anyone else has seen this phenomenon. Or if anyone knows whether or not, this is libel to damage the firearm. I was seeing some of this with some blazer brass, 124gr FMJ as well. But it was not as pronounced as with the 147gr.

I field stripped the pistol to check the barrel. AFAICT, there’s no defect in the barrel that would account for ripping the jacket off the ammunition.

Here’s what are the shrapnel holes look like in the cardboard;
109816

And here’s what I was picking out of those holes in the cardboard…
109817

[Lon]

Saw a lot of this in the Rangemaster Advanced Instructor class this weekend. Tom said he sees it a lot because the bullet aren’t jacketed any more, they’re plated. And it’s not just ported barrels. I was using a ported barrel and my partner wasn’t. When we switched partners, I stopped seeing that and I didn’t switch guns or ammo. Other non ported guns were doing the same thing. Whether a ported barrel does it or not depends a lot on the source of the ports. Monsoon tactical backbores theirs to avoid this.

[WDR]

To clarify, was the gun OP was using a ported or comped gun?

Comped or ported guns and plated ammo sometimes don't mix. I think the plating on Speer TMJ bullets is a bit thicker than some other plated bullets out there, but it can still be a problem.

I've seen plated bullets do weird things before like that. Years ago I had some 147gr West Coast plated bullets that'd leave a "swirl" of lead on targets, that was obviously from the thin plating being cut buy the rifling, and leaving marks on the paper at closer ranges (10-15 yards). I also had some old Winchester White Box 9mm that had brass jackets that would keyhole a small percentage of the time, from a couple different guns. Others at the time noticed the same problem. I think they had a batch that was undersize. They quickly changed that ammo back to copper jackets and the problems went away.

I've recently fired a few hundred rounds of 124gr Blazer Brass without noting any issues. Unfortunately, Speer has been marking the boxes as FMJ, not TMJ, though its fairly obvious to me that they are plated.

ETA: My guns are not ported or comped. If I was having issues like this, with or without the ports/comps, I'd probably stop using that ammo.

[Clusterfrack]

I observed a really bad problem with Blazer Brass 9mm. A guy on my squad at a USPSA match was shooting a Glock 17, and had a squib. Unfortunately, the RO is hard of hearing and by the time I and another guy yelled "STOP", the shooter racked and fired again. Fortunately that round was a squib as well. He found both bullets stacked up in his barrel, and there was no visible damage to the gun.

So... Blazer Brass is not high on my list of ammo right now.

[fatdog]

Seen this sort of spall effect from the blazer brass plated bullets going back a decade now, both 115 and 124 plated bullets. It seems more pronounced with some batches and with some guns. Had some 40 and 45 barrels that do the same to a lesser degree with Berry's and Montana Gold.

[Jim Watson]

Saw it years ago with Cor Bon practice ammo plated bullets.
There was an IDPA BUG match, S&W M642s and that ammo provided. The revolvers were hot and dirty, the targets were peppered with plating fragments.

[Spartan1980]

I quit hand loading plated bullets a long time ago because they are too fragile, so this isn't surprising in the least. Disappointing from a major manufacturer.

[ArgentFix]

I had this jacket seperation spalling happen a few years ago in a P320 with loose-packed Blazer Brass 115 from Natchez. No ports or muzzle device. It also sprinkled shrapnel around the barrel and inside the slide somehow. Fortunately I heard it and stopped shooting so no permanent damage was done.

[Chomps]

To clarify, was the gun OP was using a ported or comped gun?

Comped or ported guns and plated ammo sometimes don't mix. I think the plating on Speer TMJ bullets is a bit thicker than some other plated bullets out there, but it can still be a problem.

I've seen plated bullets do weird things before like that. Years ago I had some 147gr West Coast plated bullets that'd leave a "swirl" of lead on targets, that was obviously from the thin plating being cut buy the rifling, and leaving marks on the paper at closer ranges (10-15 yards). I also had some old Winchester White Box 9mm that had brass jackets that would keyhole a small percentage of the time, from a couple different guns. Others at the time noticed the same problem. I think they had a batch that was undersize. They quickly changed that ammo back to copper jackets and the problems went away.

I've recently fired a few hundred rounds of 124gr Blazer Brass without noting any issues. Unfortunately, Speer has been marking the boxes as FMJ, not TMJ, though its fairly obvious to me that they are plated.

ETA: My guns are not ported or comped. If I was having issues like this, with or without the ports/comps, I'd probably stop using that ammo.

My pistol is NOT ported. The post I mentioned in my op only said that Blazer doesn’t support using their ammo in ported weapons. I do remember reading somewhere where improper indexing of ports or even cans could result in bullet strikes that peel jacketing. That was not the case here. Mine is a Stock Glock 48 except for the PSA mags.

So,.. I assume by your warning, you feel there’s a chance of this spall doing damage to the barrel before exiting? I don’t recall seeing this with any of my other guns. But as I mentioned,.. Im not usually shooting inside 5yds. and the 147 grain Flat nose is what I use in my PCC’s. I’m definitely not shooting them inside of 5 yards. I will have to double check this @ my next range session.

[cosermann]

I observed a really bad problem with Blazer Brass 9mm. A guy on my squad at a USPSA match was shooting a Glock 17, and had a squib. Unfortunately, the RO is hard of hearing and by the time I and another guy yelled "STOP", the shooter racked and fired again. Fortunately that round was a squib as well. He found both bullets stacked up in his barrel, and there was no visible damage to the gun.

So... Blazer Brass is not high on my list of ammo right now.


Well, this sucks, said the guy with half a case in transit to his front door. . . .

Previously, I've run thousands of rounds of Blazer Brass with no issues. Would be unfortunate if they were to begin now.

[BN]

I've seen plated bullets do weird things before like that. Years ago I had some 147gr West Coast plated bullets that'd leave a "swirl" of lead on targets, that was obviously from the thin plating being cut buy the rifling, and leaving marks on the paper at closer ranges (10-15 yards).

I had the same problem with West Coast bullets. I had fired >20,000 of them with no problems, so I ordered a bunch more. I eventually shot them all up in practice, just accepting the bad accuracy. I didn't use them in matches after one round ended up a few feet away in a no-shoot target. :( West Coast went out of business soon after. I try not to use any plated bullets now.

I was glad when the plastic coated bullets like Bayou came out.

[fatdog]

.... there’s a chance of this spall doing damage to the barrel before exiting? .

I don't see how this happens. In spite of the spall I experienced with Montana Gold .40 bullets in my old STI Edge limited racegun I put at least 6,000 of those down the pipe back in the first decade of the century and there was zero damage to the gun or the barrel, in fact I cannot understand any mechanism of damage to an unported barrel from this. It is annoying to see the frags on the target, and frags can clog up a compensator or barrel port, but this is not going to destroy the barrel or crown of an unported barrel in any way.

[Chomps]

I don't see how this happens. In spite of the spall I experienced with Montana Gold .40 bullets in my old STI Edge limited racegun I put at least 6,000 of those down the pipe back in the first decade of the century and there was zero damage to the gun or the barrel, in fact I cannot understand any mechanism of damage to an unported barrel from this. It is annoying to see the frags on the target, and frags can clog up a compensator or barrel port, but this is not going to destroy the barrel or crown of an unported barrel in any way.


Thanks,.. thats good to know. !👍🏻

[revchuck38]

Years ago I had some 147gr West Coast plated bullets that'd leave a "swirl" of lead on targets, that was obviously from the thin plating being cut buy the rifling, and leaving marks on the paper at closer ranges (10-15 yards).

When Blazer was first offered in loose 500-round boxes, I bought a box to try them out. I had the same swirls, IIRC using my PX4.

[Archer1440]

I just shot my 2500th round of Blazer Brass 147 on Sunday in a SC match, where I used it in CO and Prod. I have 2500 more remaining, plus another case en route.

I can say that after 4 USPSA matches and 3 SC matches, I haven't seen anything that I found to be of concern. The fact that my HK pistols (VP9L and P30L) have CHF barrels may well be one factor- cut rifling might very well make it behave differently.

In a Level 2 Chrono stage the ammo rated 144 PF from my VP9L. The pulled round is clearly a TMJ (plated) fully swaged projectile, with a light crimp. Recoil behavior is favorable.

I've shot a bit of it from my P226 SAO LO rig with an OEM SIG Nitron barrel with cut rifling, and didn't note anything that would concern me, either, but it was only 125 rounds or so. That barrel has a particularly clean rifling job.

To recap, I have had no issues with this ammo at all, but will keep an eye on it in light of this discussion.

[Chomps]

I just shot my 2500th round of Blazer Brass 147 on Sunday in a SC match, where I used it in CO and Prod. I have 2500 more remaining, plus another case en route.

I can say that after 4 USPSA matches and 3 SC matches, I haven't seen anything that I found to be of concern. The fact that my HK pistols (VP9L and P30L) have CHF barrels may well be one factor- cut rifling might very well make it behave differently.

In a Level 2 Chrono stage the ammo rated 144 PF from my VP9L. The pulled round is clearly a TMJ (plated) fully swaged projectile, with a light crimp. Recoil behavior is favorable.

I've shot a bit of it from my P226 SAO LO rig with an OEM SIG Nitron barrel with cut rifling, and didn't note anything that would concern me, either, but it was only 125 rounds or so. That barrel has a particularly clean rifling job.

To recap, I have had no issues with this ammo at all, but will keep an eye on it in light of this discussion.

thanks for the reply,… I’m just curious, though,
Was any of that shooting you did within 5 yards. Because up until that, I hadn’t noticed anything with my 147 either. But as I mentioned earlier in this post, the 147 is my practice ammo for my 9 mm P cc. And I don’t shoot those inside 5 yards.

Whatever is causing the spalling, it’s coming out of the barrel at a fairly low velocity. It hardly penetrates the cardboard even inside 3 yards. It doesn’t go through it. outside of five or 7 yards I don’t think it would even make them work. I don’t think the fragments get that far.

[Archer1440]

thanks for the reply,… I’m just curious, though,
Was any of that shooting you did within 5 yards. Because up until that, I hadn’t noticed anything with my 147 either. But as I mentioned earlier in this post, the 147 is my practice ammo for my 9 mm P cc. And I don’t shoot those inside 5 yards.

Whatever is causing the spalling, it’s coming out of the barrel at a fairly low velocity. It hardly penetrates the cardboard even inside 3 yards. It doesn’t go through it. outside of five or 7 yards I don’t think it would even make them work. I don’t think the fragments get that far.

I've had a few very close targets in a few stages in my past 4 matches. On one stage a couple weeks ago, I was the first shooter up, and the previous squad had changed out all the paper, so I was the first shooter on it. One target was set up so you could engage it from about 30" reaching past a wall, and I did just that.

I just reviewed my hat camera footage from that particular stage, and there's no sign of anything unusual there.

I've read stories about this particular cartridge "spalling" out of PCC's, and supposedly it is a known issue, but again, no issues out of my pistols.

Edit: I just reviewed footage of some indoor shooting on those thin, brittle paper USPSA practice targets, 5-25 yard hammers, no signs of any particulates of any kind on that paper. And that stuff tears if you look at it cross-eyed. Just nice, crisp, SWC style holes which is a benefit of those flat-nose 147's.

Final Edit- here's a frame grab from another match with the same ammo, that target is pretty close. A figure-8 0.19 split pair in the bottom of the A-zone head box, and there's nothing obvious here in terms of "shrapnel".

[Chomps]

Thinking about what was going on here with the 147 & 124 Blazer Spalling, I started to wonder if Fragments of the jacket not fully peeled from the core of the round is what accounted for these ODD bullet impacts I noticed during other range sessions. I thought that maybe my PCC’s were “Key-holing!”.


109914

109916

What do you think. Do you think that odd little notch is a result of part of the jacket hanging on to the core? In fact, I just noticed looking at the images, that the little tail of the keyhole is weirdly, consistently oriented on the one target. And those same odd looking impacts on other targets we’re not so consistent. So I’m at a loss to explain that to you unless it’s a quality of the target paper. But I’ve noticed this odd little keyhole impact occurring on cardboard, shoot ‘n see splatter type, and regular paper targets.

Love to hear some opinions and feedback on this. After talking about the Spalling, and going back to look at some of the target images Ive taken, I’m a little less worried about the Rounds Actually keyholing due to any sort of barrel defect. “Whew!” lol

(edit)
Might also explain why I can punch a 5 round hole in the bullseye @ 25m but @ 50-75-etc accuracy gets wonky! 😳☹️

[gtmtnbiker98]

I've experienced this shooting Blazer 180gr 10mm. In addition to the shrapnel on the target, I get odd shaped bullet holes due to the plating partially peeling when fired. I've only really noticed this shooting the 10mm flavor of Blazer Brass, the 9mm and .45 all appear to shoot fine.

[SteveL]

I didn't know this was a thing until reading through this thread. What other brands of ammo are plated?

[ArgentFix]

I didn't know this was a thing until reading through this thread. What other brands of ammo are plated?

A video about "FMJ-ish" bullets I happened to find a while back:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVlb-xTdSbk

I don't know that Fiocchi is superior but when it's cheap I stack it deep. There's two kinds now: "Training Dynamics" in Italian cases with the brass jacketed bullets seen in the video, and "Range Dynamics" with cases marked "Assembled in America" and copper (plated?) bullets.

[Chomps]

A video about "FMJ-ish" bullets I happened to find a while back:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVlb-xTdSbk

I don't know that Fiocchi is superior but when it's cheap I stack it deep. There's two kinds now: "Training Dynamics" in Italian cases with the brass jacketed bullets seen in the video, and "Range Dynamics" with cases marked "Assembled in America" and copper (plated?) bullets.

Welp,.. once again, I got a thank somebody for posting some thing that describes an issue that I just noticed and did not know what exactly what’s going on. 🤣👍🏻

109938
This was my G 48 barrel after shooting that stuff. I also noticed the apparent bronze-ish brass color in the grooves?
I wondered why the end of the barrel had all that gray shit on it. 🤷*♂️🤣

[Chomps]

…and with ALL that unjacketed lead gas/vapor/particles shooting out the muzzle and into the air, no wonder my blood lead level has doubled! 😉🤣🤦🤷

[FrankB]

109953
109954

I’ve used Blazer Brass for years, and have never seen anything resembling a plated bullet. I tried vigorously to scrap the jacket off the bullet pictured above, and could not reach lead.

[rhino on INGO]

This is interesting. I'm about to finish a recently acquired case of 1,000 rounds of Blazer Brass 124gr, but I haven't had any issues with it. I'm probably shooting the last of it on Saturday, so I'll get a little closer to the targets and see if I observe what some you have experienced.

[Default.mp3]

I didn't know this was a thing until reading through this thread. What other brands of ammo are plated?It's my understanding that any fully encapsulated bullet is plated; that being said, there are different levels of plating, i.e., the Speer TMJs are plated, but the plating is much thicker and robust than the very thin plating you might find on a Berry's Bullet.

[ArgentFix]

This was my G 48 barrel after shooting that stuff. I also noticed the apparent bronze-ish brass color in the grooves?
I wondered why the end of the barrel had all that gray shit on it. 🤷*♂️🤣


…and with ALL that unjacketed lead gas/vapor/particles shooting out the muzzle and into the air, no wonder my blood lead level has doubled! 😉🤣🤦🤷

To be fair, any bullet with an exposed base will deposit molten lead on the muzzle crown, muzzle device, your lungs, etc. I wish "TMJ"s were cheaper if only to make cleaning compensators easier. Sheesh. Anyway, I've shot probably a literal ton of Blazer Brass and will continue to shoot it.

[TCinVA]

I've shot somewhere in the neighborhood of 15,000 rounds of Blazer Brass or equivalent in the last three years.

I have seen fragments of the jacket in targets when engaging at 5 yards or less sometimes. I have also seen the swirls on the target at 5 yards or less sometimes. It hasn't been consistent as in a predictable phenomenon from even one round to the next. I will shoot a demo in front of the class and we'll go up to make the teaching points and sometimes I will see where generally just one round shed some of its jacket or left behind some swirling. When I see it on my target or on student targets, I point it out.

As a reference, I've used primarily a Gen5 G17 with a factory barrel, a Gen5 G17 with a KKM barrel, and two M&P's with Apex barrels. I did a very small amount through a Beretta 92. I haven't seen leading or any unusual buildup in the barrels of any of those guns using Blazer brass. I haven't had any clients report that they are seeing any unusual buildup in their barrels using BB either. Most of those folks are using Glocks, M&P's, and Sigs with a smattering of H&K's and FNs mixed in.

In teaching with others like Tom I've seen plenty of targets where there was evidence of the occasional jacket fragmentation, but to my memory I've not seen anyone have it consistently round after round after round...and Tom's classes usually do a fair bit of work at 5 yards.

Just as an example, in a typical IDC with Tom if there's two relays and he's having them do holster work at 3 yards I'll see one or two shooters with evidence of jacket fragmentation on their target with a percentage of the shots they fired. I usually explain what it is (most are flabbergasted that it's even a thing) and we move on. I've not yet come across someone who has it happening consistently shot to shot.

So far in my observation...and I'm just one dude who is on the range a lot, but not enough to have anything like a comprehensive view so YMMV, tablespoon full of salt, consult your doctor, etc...it hasn't been enough of an issue in my view to be really concerned with apart from being another minor reason why I don't truck with ported and compensated guns for serious use.

When Federal introduced their polymer coated bullets I had hoped those would catch on and become a cheaper but still highly effective alternative to copper washing/jacketing for bulk target ammo, but that doesn't seem to have caught on for some reason. Fiocchi's plastic coated shotgun slugs are magnificent at reducing leading in the barrel and, consequently, leading into the gas system of semi-autos. So I'm a fan of the general concept.

[TCinVA]

Something else worthy of note:

It is difficult to comprehend the number of loaded cartridges that are produced on a daily basis in this country. A single plant can load tens of millions of rounds per day. Anyone who is involved in manufacturing can appreciate that producing that many units with even incredibly low defect rates will result in what a normal person would consider large numbers of cartridges that aren't quite up to snuff.

The fact that something like a squib with factory ammunition is such an infrequent occurrence on the range is frankly close to miraculous when you ponder just how many cartridges these factories are cranking out.

So I expect ammunition to have problems. I expect that somewhere out there somebody has some HST or Gold Dot that will shed jacket and perform sub-optimally when called on, or primers that won't light properly, etc...but it's going to be a very, very small percentage of that ammo. The extra quality control and higher quality components used in those cartridges make the error rate a lot lower...but not zero. It's a low enough number that I'm pretty sure the rounds in my magazines right now aren't going to be a problem should I need them.

[Chomps]

Something else worthy of note:

It is difficult to comprehend the number of loaded cartridges that are produced on a daily basis in this country. A single plant can load tens of millions of rounds per day. Anyone who is involved in manufacturing can appreciate that producing that many units with even incredibly low defect rates will result in what a normal person would consider large numbers of cartridges that aren't quite up to snuff.

The fact that something like a squib with factory ammunition is such an infrequent occurrence on the range is frankly close to miraculous when you ponder just how many cartridges these factories are cranking out.

So I expect ammunition to have problems. I expect that somewhere out there somebody has some HST or Gold Dot that will shed jacket and perform sub-optimally when called on, or primers that won't light properly, etc...but it's going to be a very, very small percentage of that ammo. The extra quality control and higher quality components used in those cartridges make the error rate a lot lower...but not zero. It's a low enough number that I'm pretty sure the rounds in my magazines right now aren't going to be a problem should I need them.

yeah,… With everybody commenting on this, I was beginning to come to that conclusion myself. It’s just I hadn’t seen this before, and I was worried that these fragments might be able to cause damage to the pistol, the barrel, ….ME! 🤣
Seems to be the consensus that it’s not something to worry about. And as I said, I hadn’t noticed it before it might just be this one batch or this one box because I’ve shot other boxes of this same case. although with the 147 that is almost exclusively, my PCC practice round. I only shot them in this pistol as part of vetting those PSA magazines. So normally I would never be shooting 147 in that close. To notice a problem.

[TCinVA]

I mean, if you see evidence that it's causing problems in your gun (like excessive leading, etc) then by all means take action. But you're probably ok.

[Chomps]

So another range sesh yesterday and it appears it’s the Blazer 124 that shedding shrapnel & spall. I thought it was the 147, but I was mistaken. I don’t know if it’s maybe just a bad batch on this case I’m going to make sure I get down the lot number,… Or if maybe, this is a wider problem with blazer nowadays, but in close you can see it is definitely throwing shards of the jacket around. Not only that, but it’s exposing so much lead that some thing is happening to that lead. It’s being vaporized or shedding particles of lead. So much so that it’s actually leaving swirl marks on the target around the bullet hole. 😶🤣🤷


Here’s a close-up of one of them:

110132
Doesn’t seem to be doing any damage to the gun tho. although I will be careful not to shoot this ammo through anything ported, comped or canned.

[Spartan1980]

Dammit. I have a few cases of 124 Blazer Brass. I'm planning on hitting the range this week. If I make it I'll report if I have this problem.

Has anyone called CCI and discussed? I've not seen anything about it on other forums.

[Chomps]

Dammit. I have a few cases of 124 Blazer Brass. I'm planning on hitting the range this week. If I make it I'll report if I have this problem.

Has anyone called CCI and discussed? I've not seen anything about it on other forums.

If you’re going to check to see if your lot of ammo is affected, make sure you’re firing in CLOSE to the target. This spall from the jacket doesn’t even penetrate thru the cardboard @ 3-5 Feet. @5-7 yds, I doubt you'd have any fragments make it that far to embed in the target.

-edit-
These posts are several years older, but it’s all I found when I googled this issue. It does mention Blazer’s response back then I don’t know what the response would be now, but here’s the link if you wanna read it.

http://www.coldboretact.com/blazer-brass-ammo-prohibited.html

Here’s one more recent:
https://www.reddit.com/r/GlockMod/comments/14a632h/has_anybody_used_blazer_in_their_ported_setups/?rdt=48502

[Chomps]

-update-

So,.. Another weekend session vetting two more of the PSA 15 round mags for my G48. Ripped thru 150-200 rounds of blazer brass in both 124 and a box of 147. I was 90% thru my ammo when I noticed,.. No Spalling this trip. 😶

All the Blazer fmj I shot in this session was from the same cases and lot numbers as the stuff that was showering fragments of jacket shrapnel all over the target last two range sessions. So it would appear maybe it’s a QC inconsistency?


Anyhoo,… for anyone who’s interested. The first 2 PSA micro dagger Mags and the two New ones I just purchased, so far have ALL run flawlessly in my G48. I Put At least 1000 rounds through the first two 15 rounders so far and another 150+ through the second pair. Nary a hiccup. :cool: